John 3:16 in relation to the grace gospel

[justbyfaith]

Repentance is indeed necessary for salvation.

Consider the words of John the Baptist:

Mat 3:8, Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:
Mat 3:9, And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.
Mat 3:10, And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
Mat 3:11, I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:
Mat 3:12, Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

Luk 3:7, Then said he to the multitude that came forth to be baptized of him, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
Luk 3:8, Bring forth therefore fruits worthy of repentance, and begin not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, That God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.
Luk 3:9, And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: every tree therefore which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

And we ought to heed the words of John the Baptist, since Jesus said that he was more than a prophet.

To @H. Richard

 

[GodsGrace]

You seem to have forgotten that salvation is synonymous with the New Birth, and the New Birth is synonymous with entrance into the Kingdom of God (John 3). Therefore every reference to the Kingdom of God by Christ was indeed a reference to salvation! So there goes your theory.

If one is allowed to enter into the Kingdom of God on earth, he is indeed saved.
He will also have to be following the rules of that Kingdom.

Is it really difficult for you to say:
"you're right"?

Because I know that I am.
Next time you read the N.T.,,,,,count.

 

[GodsGrace]

What theory?

Also, I'd like to say that I DON'T MAKE UP THEORIES.

I leave that up to the experts,
I just learn from them.

 

[Grailhunter]

I was not talking to you about theories. All good.

 

[GodsGrace]

Enoch your missing a very key point here. Saved and Salvation are certainly part of the Gospels, but not mentioned as much as you would
think, for a very good reason. If He said to the Jews that He could save them, they would say, from what. The Jews in this time period did not
believe in the devil or hell and were not promised heaven. In fact most of them did not even believe in angels. If Christ were talking to Jews
and proposed that He could save them, they would probably stone Him right there. But the concept is certainly there. For them Christ is going
to focus on the kingdom of god or kingdom of heaven because their prophecies are looking for a human king. If you look into the history of
it the Jews, they had many perspective messiahs, before Christ and they were human. But as far as His ministry, He focused on a kingdom because that is what the Jews would relate to.

You know GH,
It's possible that @Enoch111 never even saw the above post of yours because you didn't tag him !

Try clicking on "reply" at the bottom right of the page when you want to speak to someone.

Or you'll never get an answer!

 

[GodsGrace]

I was not talking to you about theories. All good.

I know.
I was referring to Enoch's post to me telling me that something or other was the end of my theory...as if I sit around and make up my very own theories!

 

[GodsGrace]

Enoch your missing a very key point here. Saved and Salvation are certainly part of the Gospels, but not mentioned as much as you would
think, for a very good reason. If He said to the Jews that He could save them, they would say, from what. The Jews in this time period did not
believe in the devil or hell and were not promised heaven. In fact most of them did not even believe in angels. If Christ were talking to Jews
and proposed that He could save them, they would probably stone Him right there. But the concept is certainly there. For them Christ is going
to focus on the kingdom of god or kingdom of heaven because their prophecies are looking for a human king. If you look into the history of
it the Jews, they had many perspective messiahs, before Christ and they were human. But as far as His ministry, He focused on a kingdom because that is what the Jews would relate to.

Amen to the above.
Being "saved" is a modern day idea which probably happened about the 1800's or so...certainly after the reformation.

The early church knew about salvation,,,but in an entirely different way than we do since they had always had only the law.

Great post!

 

[GodsGrace]

Sorry, GodsGrace...I did not answer your question. ...then why did He choose only men to be Apostles? Well, you have a mind...
congratulations! Another huge topic. I hope this does not sound like a cop out. As it is I have explained the evidence that females
were important to the whole messiahship and ministry. Then in the end, if you look and read the Gospels closely you will read that
the Apostles really did not believe, even when He presented Himself to them, their first thought was that He was a ghost. They did
not go to the tomb to check, because they did not believe He would resurrect. Even as He ascended to Heaven, the Gospel indicates
that some had doubts. The women that followed Christ, you can call them what you want, but with them was His Mother and she
knew who and what He was and these women did too. That kind of knowledge gives you rock solid courage and that is why they were
at the Cross and the Tomb. (I am skipping over a lot of information here.) Read Hebrews carefully from start to finish. You will find
that Christ was made a High Priest, but not a Jewish High Priest. He was made a High Priest of the Order of Melchizedek. I will tell you
He was anointed to that position by women that had the authority to do that. Of course there is more to it. The book is called Hebrews
but the word Hebrew does not appear in the book and there are codes that we can touch on that later.

The New Testament was written by men, about men and there appeared to be some hostilities between the women, including Christ's
Mother and the Apostles. There are several factors that point to this. There is a disagreement at Pentecost and then the women
disappear completely from the New Testament. Other books outside the canon and other writing and traditions suggest this.
Mary Magdalene is referred to as the Apostle to the Apostles in these writings. I am not the only one researching this.

Christ and the woman at the well...Christ used a women as a minster to the Samaritans, when He knew the men had too many biases
to get the job done. I also contend that these women were with Christ before He picked His Apostles.

There is a lot more information, if your interested... God Bless

Hi GH,
I know some of the above...but you did post a couple of things I didn't know.

1. Could you post a little more to what I highlighted in green?

2. What do you mean by codes?

I've read some material outside of the N.T. but it's so varied and has different ideas...I'm not sure they can be trusted.

Unless you're speaking about the writings of the ECFs. I DO trust them.

Please click on "reply" at the bottom right of this page or I won't see your reply.

 

[Grailhunter]

I will tell you He was anointed to that position by women that had the authority to do that. Of course there is more to it.
Read the occasions of the anointings. Christ and the Apostles at this point are Jews. It is not the custom and it is even
against the religious customs of the Jews for women to anoint. And in any custom, they had to have the authority to
anoint to mean anything. In the Old Testament kings were anointed by priests. So there had to be something special
about these women. And in this case it is actually a God that is being anointed. And I should say I am referring to the
anointment of His head...just so I do not get a lot backlash.

Hebrews is one of two books that the word enlightened appears. As you read, this enlightenment comes with a
higher responsibility...explaining that after receiving this enlightenment, if one were to fall away there is no
forgiveness. Hebrews 6:4-6. This is not standard Christian theology...it pertains to this enlightenment. The full
understanding of this book takes some time and it does involve codes and also some background history. I can
go into some of this but it will take some time. Don't want to blow you away with information but where this is
going to lead to is that Melchizedek, the Order of Melchizedek, the Magi, and these women that followed Christ
are all connected. As it was the Magi knew He was coming, knew His importance, traveled the distance, lead by
a strobbing light...that moves and rests...not a star. Worshiped Him and lavished him with valuable gifts...that
the bible describes as a treasure. This was to support Him and His family and start His ministry. Then we are lead
to believe that they just left with no further contact...not true.

 

[brakelite]

NO !!!, under grace Jesus (God) paid for all the sins of mankind. this was not true until Jesus shed His blood on the cross. Some people just want to blend God's mercy in the past to be the same as grace.

So there was no grace involved in the blood of the lamb?

 

[Davy]

....

After 4 years on these forums, I still don't really understand dispensatinalism.
I believe the entire bible is for every Christian. I believe not ALL of the O.T. was written by inspiration of God but by man's hand - this could easily be proven.
But what is written there by God is certainly for us.

What Jesus spoke must be accepted above and beyond what any of the other writers spoke and wrote since Jesus is God and man may make mistakes, but Jesus never made a mistake in HIS words.

As to the Kingdom...
Jesus came to set up HIS Kingdom on earth...right now.
Did it fail? Maybe. Maybe not. A different thread.
But it was for every believer to be a part of.

But do you believe in an earthly Kingdom at the end of our time?

Hyper-dispensationalism (or sometimes ultra-dispensationalism), as opposed to traditional (or classic) Dispensationalism, views the start of the Christian church as beginning with the ministry of the Apostle Paul after the early part of the book of Acts. Although variations exist in specifics, all hyper-dispensationalists view the four Gospels and many of New Testament Epistles as applying to the pre-Pauline Jewish-Christian church or to the future Davidic Kingdom; not directly applicable to the predominantly Gentile Church of today. (https://www.theopedia.com/hyper-dispensationalism)


What you don't seem to understand is that when John Darby began preaching the pre-tribulational rapture theory in 1830's Great Britain, he developed his theory of Dispensationalism to help support it. He is where the idea originates that the seed of Israel will be a separate kingdom on earth while Christ's Church is raptured to Heaven and ruling from Heaven, which theory of course is nowhere written of in God's Word. This is why the Pre-trib Rapture school denies Scripture like Christ's Olivet discourse as being for the Church, and they instead say it is only for Jews, essentially splitting Christ's Church in two.

That is also why they preach the false idea that Paul had a different gospel than what the other Apostles had, which again, is a false idea created from Darby's Dispensationist theories. And in turn, the Hyper-Dispensationalist preaches that any Scripture not preached by Paul is not for the Church.

Thus that doctrine of men is a major deceptive off-shoot version of the pre-trib rapture school. There is only one... Gospel of Jesus Christ, and Gospel of the Kingdom, and that is what Apostle Paul preached to Gentiles also. Moreover, Paul was emphatic about the makeup of Christ's Church being made up of the Apostles and OT prophets as the foundation with Christ Jesus as The Cornerstone, and both believing Jews and Gentiles together as ONE body.

 

[Davy]

Agreed. God tried different ways to get to man, and ultimately the best and last revelation is Jesus. This is why I don't really believe that revelation is progressive, or I should say, has been progressive since His resurrection and Paul's message of grace and not works of The Law. I find that as we try to become more and more enlightened, we seem only to create more problems: The Word of Faith movement, the assumption of Mary, Faith/Belief only movement, etc.

Well, one of the major ideas the Grace Movement (i.e., Hyper-Dispensationalism) promotes is the 'once saved, always saved' doctrine. They believe that no matter what we do or how we live after having believed on Jesus and been baptized, we can't fall away. That belief will get one in terrible trouble with our Lord Jesus when He returns. It is the route of the five foolish virgins who didn't bring a spare vessel of the Oil.

This is why the Pre-trib Rapture school promotes the idea that we have no need to study about the signs our Lord Jesus gave us leading up to His return; to just be ready to be raptured out prior to the tribulation. Nor to prepare to give a Testimony for Christ during the coming great tribulation.

And that's the main reason today for all these escape theories being pushed in today's Churches. Our job in Christ Jesus for the end of this world is to make stand for Him, girt with The Gospel Armor on, and prepared to give a Testimony for Him during the time of great tribulation. That is the duty of His elect Church for the end of this world, and Satan is attempting to steer as many of Christ's servants away from that future duty as possible. The pre-trib rapture theory is just as dangerous as man's Preterist or Historicist theories, so don't be deceived. They all... contain a position that accepts the coming Antichrist's world beast kingdom in place of Christ's Kingdom which our Lord Jesus will establish literally, right here on earth when He returns.

 

[Grailhunter]

I my gosh! I could have a hay day with this, it would just take a week. Davy, do you know what you believe in?

 

[justbyfaith]

Isa 3:12, As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths.

Here the LORD speaks of it as being a negative thing that women are ruling over the people.

In the beginning the Lord created them male and female.

Men are created differently from women.

We are more analytical and more likely to think through decisions; whereas women tend to make decisions based on emotion.

The latter is not a positive formula for a good government.

 

[Grailhunter]

Oh my! If I do not chew you up the rest of them will! First off I am not a Jew...God love'em...are you?
Do you think Christianity is an extension of Judaism?

 

[justbyfaith]

Oh my! If I do not chew you up the rest of them will! First off I am not a Jew...God love'em...are you?
Do you think Christianity is an extension of Judaism?

You talkin' to me?

 

[Grailhunter]

Yes sir, talking to justbyfaith.

 

[justbyfaith]

In answer to your first question, I do not know if I am a Jew or not...it is possible that I may have been switched at birth. I know that I was circumcised on the eighth day but my parents claim to be Gentiles.

In answer to your second question, yes, I believe that Christianity began as a sect of Judaism; and also that it cannot be separated from Judaism to a certain degree.

What I mean by this is that Jesus is the Messiah of Judaism (and no other religion but what developed out of that); and while the Old Testament is waxing old and ready to vanish (Hebrews 8:13), there are still promises in the OT that we can lay hold of as Christians (see 2 Peter 1:3-4, 2 Corinthians 1:20, Romans 4:20-22, and Hebrews 11:33); and therefore all scripture continues to be profitable for doctrine, for reproof, correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of the Lord may be perfect, throughly furnished unto every good work.

 

[Grailhunter]

I am sure you know that Christ told them that Christianity was not a patch on an old garment. That you cannot put new wine in old wine skins.
The wisdom and righteousness of Judaism degraded the social status of women.
The wisdom and righteousness of Judaism made women property.
The wisdom and righteousness of Judaism established polygamy and the Mosaic Laws governed it.
The wisdom and righteousness of Judaism had Moses to go to another land and kill all that breathed and reminded them not to
forget the babies.
The wisdom and righteousness of Judaism directed them to take their children out and stone them if they were disobedient.
How much of that wisdom do you respect? Do you call it righteousness? How much of that do you want in Christianity?

 

[justbyfaith]

How much of that wisdom do you respect? Do you call it righteousness? How much of that do you want in Christianity?

All of it, 2 Timothy 3:16-17.