John 3:5... YES! ANOTHER BAPTISM THREAD!

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Philip James

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book of the bible chapter verse that reads that exact way scripture please that reads word for word like that. other wise your adding to the word. o_O:eek::oops:

I gave you the scripture, may the Lord bless you!

You too! Are welcome to come to the wedding feast of the Lamb of God!

Peace be with you!
 

Ezra

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anyone see scriptures phillip posts that backs up his bath theory
 

bbyrd009

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bbyrd009

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I gave you the scripture, may the Lord bless you!

You too! Are welcome to come to the wedding feast of the Lamb of God!

Peace be with you!
and you pj are welcome to abandon your Catholic heresies and become Christian, any time you like, and may God bless you too! I got so much Scripture you would choke bro, start with my sig if you like
 
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Philip James

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and you pj are welcome to abandon your Catholic heresies and become Christian, any time you like, and may God bless you too! I got so much Scripture you would choke bro, start with my sig if you like

Ah you wound me beloved. But I forgive you.

I dont see your sig on my phone browser, please post it for me if you wish..

Peace!
 

Enoch111

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Indeed my teaching is not my own, but that of my brothers and sisters for 2000 years.... You might want to give it an honest hearing...
This is the standard Catholic response to Bible truth: "I don't care what the Bible says since 2000 years of error make it somehow right." This is because so-called *Tradition* trumps the Bible every time, no matter how false.

You were shown (from Scripture) that the conditions for Christian baptism are repentance toward God and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ. Since no infant can rightly meet these conditions, infants are excluded from believer's baptism. But who cares? 2000 years of baptizing babies makes it right.
 
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Grailhunter

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The necessity of water Baptism for salvation is attested to by the Early Church Fathers and Scripture.
The early Christians and ECF’s (Early Church Fathers) were big on water baptism even though the method could very. In winter you could substitute the river with pouring water over someone’s head three times. But it always involves water.

ECF…Tertullian on Water Baptism (155-220 ad)
Happy is our sacrament of water, in that, by washing away the sins of our early blindness, we are set free and admitted into eternal life! A treatise on this matter will not be superfluous; instructing not only such as are just becoming formed (in the faith), but them who, content with having simply believed, without full examination of the grounds of the traditions, carry (in mind), through, an untried though probable. The consequence is, that a viper of the Cainite heresy, (Gnostic) lately conversant in this quarter, has carried away a great number with her most venomous doctrine, making it her first aim to destroy baptism. Which is quite in accordance with nature; for vipers and asps and basilisks themselves generally do affect arid and waterless places. But we, little fishes, after the example of our ΙΧΘΥΣ Jesus Christ, are born in water, nor have we safety in any other way than by permanently abiding in water; so that most monstrous creature, who had no right to teach even sound doctrine, knew full well how to kill the little fishes, by taking them away from the water!

Tertullian on why Water Baptism
Mindful of this declaration as of a conclusive prescript, we nevertheless proceed to treat (address) the question, How foolish and impossible it is to be formed anew by water. In what respect, pray , has this material substance merited an office of so high dignity? The authority, I suppose, of the liquid element has to be examined. This however, is found in abundance, and that from the very beginning. For water is one of those things which, before all the furnishing of the world, were quiescent with God in a yet unshapened state. In the first beginning, says Scripture, God made the heaven and the earth. But the earth was invisible, and unorganized, and darkness was over the abyss; and the Spirit of the Lord was hovering over the waters. The first thing, O man, which you have to venerate, is the age of the waters in that their substance is ancient; the second, their dignity, in that they were the seat of the Divine Spirit, more pleasing to Him, no doubt, than all the other then existing elements. For the darkness was total thus far, shapeless, without the ornament of stars; and the abyss gloomy; and the earth unfurnished; and the heaven unwrought: water alone — always a perfect, gladsome, simple material substance, pure in itself — supplied a worthy vehicle to God. What of the fact that waters were in some way the regulating powers by which the disposition of the world thenceforward was constituted by God? For the suspension of the celestial firmament in the midst He caused by dividing the waters; the suspension of the dry land He accomplished by separating the waters. After the world had been hereupon set in order through its elements, when inhabitants were given it, the waters were the first to receive the precept to bring forth living creatures. Water was the first to produce that which had life, that it might be no wonder in baptism if waters know how to give life. For was not the work of fashioning man himself also achieved with the aid of waters? Suitable material is found in the earth, yet not apt for the purpose unless it be moist and juicy; which (earth) the waters, separated the fourth day before into their own place, temper with their remaining moisture to a clayey consistency. If, from that time onward, I go forward in recounting universally, or at more length, the evidences of the authority of this element which I can adduce to show how great is its power or its grace;; how many ingenious devices, how many functions, how useful an instrumentality, it affords the world, I fear I may seem to have collected rather the praises of water than the reasons of baptism; although I should thereby teach all the more fully, that it is not to be doubted that God has made the material substance which He has disposed throughout all His products and works, obey Him also in His own peculiar sacraments; that the material substance which governs terrestrial life acts as agent likewise in the celestial.

But it will suffice to have thus called at the outset those points in which withal is recognized that primary principle of baptism — which was even then fore-noted by the very attitude assumed for a type of baptism — that the Spirit of God, who hovered over (the waters) from the beginning, would continue to linger over the waters of the baptism. But a holy thing, of course, hovered over a holy; or else, from that which hovered over that which was hovered over borrowed a holiness, since it is necessary that in every case an underlying material substance should catch the quality of that which overhangs it, most of all a corporeal of a spiritual, adapted (as the spiritual is) through the subtleness of its substance, both for penetrating and insinuating. Thus the nature of the waters, sanctified by the Holy One, itself conceived withal the power of sanctifying. Let no one say, Why then, are we, pray, baptized the very waters which then exited in the first beginning? Not with those waters, of course, except in so far as the genus indeed is one, but the species very many. But what is an attribute to the genus reappears likewise in the species. And accordingly it makes no difference whether a man be washed in a sea or a pool, a stream or a fount, a lake or a trough; nor is there any distinction between those whom John baptized in the Jordan and those whom Peter baptized in the Tiber, unless withal the eunuch whom Philip baptized in the midst of his journeys with chance water, derived (therefrom) more or less of salvation than others. Act 8:26-40 All waters, therefore, in virtue of the pristine privilege of their origin, do, after invocation of God, attain the sacramental power of sanctification; for the Spirit immediately supervenes from the heavens, and rests over the waters, sanctifying them from Himself; and being thus sanctified, they imbibe at the same time the power of sanctifying. Albeit the similitude may be admitted to be suitable to the simple act; that, since we are defiled by sins, as it were by dirt, we should be washed from those stains in waters. But as sins do not show themselves in our flesh (inasmuch as no one carries on his skin the spot of idolatry, or fornication, or fraud), so persons of that kind are foul in the spirit, which is the author of the sin; for the spirit is lord, the flesh servant. Yet they each mutually share the guilt: the spirit, on the ground of command; the flesh, of subservience. Therefore, after the waters have been in a manner endued with medicinal virtue through the intervention of the angel, the spirit is corporeally washed in the waters, and the flesh is in the same spiritually cleansed.
 

Grailhunter

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Tertullian on without Baptism there is no salvation
When, however, the prescript is laid down that without baptism, salvation is attainable by none (chiefly on the ground of that declaration of the Lord, who says, Unless one be born of water, he has not life ), there arise immediately scrupulous, nay rather audacious, doubts on the part of some, how, in accordance with that prescript, salvation is attainable by the apostles, whom — Paul excepted — we do not find baptized in the Lord? Nay, since Paul is the only one of them who has put on the garment of Christ's baptism, either the peril of all the others who lack the water of Christ is prejudged, that the prescript may be maintained, or else the prescript is rescinded if salvation has been ordained even for the unbaptized. I have heard — the Lord is my witness— doubts of that kind: that none may imagine me so abandoned as to excogitate, unprovoked, in the license of my pen, ideas which would inspire others with scruple.

And now, as far as I shall be able, I will reply to them who affirm that the apostles were unbaptized. For if they had undergone the huma baptism of John, and were longing for that of the Lord, then since the Lord Himself had defined baptism to be one; (saying to Peter, who was desirous of being thoroughly bathed, He who has once bathed has no necessity to wash a second time; John 13:9-10 which, of course, He would not have said at all to one not baptized even here we have a conspicuous proof against those who, in order to destroy the sacrament of water, deprive the apostles even of John's baptism. Can it seem credible that the way of the Lord, that is, the baptism of John, had not then been prepared in those persons who were being destined to open the way of the Lord throughout the whole world? The Lord Himself, though no repentance was due from Him, was baptized: was baptism not necessary for sinners? As for the fact, then, that others were not baptized — they, however, were not companions of Christ, but enemies of the faith, doctors of the law and Pharisees. From which fact is gathered an additional suggestion, that, since the opposers of the Lord refused to be baptized, they who followed the Lord were baptized, and were not like-minded with their own rivals: especially when, if there were any one to whom they clave, the Lord had exalted John above him (by the testimony) saying, Among them who are born of women there is none greater than John the Baptist.

Others make the suggestion (forced enough, clearly that the apostles then served the turn of baptism when in their little ship, were sprinkled and covered with the waves: that Peter himself also was immersed enough when he walked on the sea. It is, however, as I think, one thing to be sprinkled or intercepted by the violence of the sea; another thing to be baptized in obedience to the discipline of religion. But that little ship did present a figure of the Church, in that she is disquieted in the sea, that is, in the world, by the waves, that is, by persecutions and temptation; the Lord, through patience, sleeping as it were, until, roused in their last extremities by the prayer of the saints, He checks the world, and restores tranquility to His own.

Now, whether they were baptized in any manner whatever, or whether they continued unbathed to the end — so that even that saying of the Lord touching the one bath does, under the person of Peter, merely regard us— still, to determine concerning the salvation of the apostles is audacious enough, because on them the prerogative even of first choice, and thereafter of undivided intimacy, might be able to confer the compendious grace of baptism, seeing they (I think) followed Him who was wont to promise salvation to every believer. Your faith, He would say, has saved you; and, Your sins shall be remitted you, on your believing, of course, albeit you be not yet baptized. If that was wanting to the apostles, I know not in the faith of what things it was, that, roused by one word of the Lord, one left the toll-booth behind for ever; Matthew 9:9 another deserted father and ship, and the craft by which he gained his living; Matthew 4:21-22 a third, who disdained his father's obsequies, fulfilled, before he heard it, that highest precept of the Lord, He who prefers father or mother to me, is not worthy of me. Matthew 10:37
 
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Grailhunter

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Baptism is Necessary for salvation
Irenaeus (120?-200), “'And dipped himself,' says [the Scripture], 'seven times in Jordan.' It was not for nothing that Naaman of old, when suffering from leprosy, was purified upon his being baptized, but it served as an indication to us. For as we are lepers in sin, we are made clean, by means of the sacred water and the invocation of the Lord, from our old transgressions; being spiritually regenerated as new-born babes, even as the Lord has declared: 'Except a man be born again through water and the Spirit, he shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.'" (Fragment, 34, A.D. 190).


Tertullian (155-220), “When, however, the prescript is laid down that 'without baptism, salvation is attainable by none" (chiefly on the ground of that declaration of the Lord, who says, "Unless one be born of water, he hath not life.'" (On Baptism, 12:1, A.D. 203).

Ambrose (340?-397), “The Church was redeemed at the price of Christ's blood. Jew or Greek, it makes no difference; but if he has believed, he must circumcise himself from his sins [in baptism (Col. 2:11-12)] so that he can be saved . . . for no one ascends into the kingdom of heaven except through the sacrament of baptism . . . "Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God" (On Abraham 2:11:79-84).

For those that believe that Baptism has spiritual effects there is scriptural support.

Matthew 28:19-20
Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.


Mark 16:16
Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.


Galatians 3:26-27
So in Christ Jesus you are all children of God through faith, for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.


Acts 2:38 Peter said to them, “Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Acts 11:16 Peter speaking, Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit.

Acts 10:48
“Surely no one can stand in the way of their being baptized with water. They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have.”


Act 8:26-40
But an angel of the Lord spoke to Philip saying, “Get up and go south to the road that descends from Jerusalem to Gaza.” (This is a desert road.) So he got up and went; and there was an Ethiopian eunuch, a court official of Candace, queen of the Ethiopians, who was in charge of all her treasure; and he had come to Jerusalem to worship, and he was returning and sitting in his chariot, and was reading the prophet Isaiah. Then the Spirit said to Philip, “Go up and join this chariot.” Philip ran up and heard him reading Isaiah the prophet, and said, “Do you understand what you are reading?” And he said, “Well, how could I, unless someone guides me?” And he invited Philip to come up and sit with him. Now the passage of Scripture which he was reading was this: “He was led as a sheep to slaughter; And as a lamb before its shearer is silent, So He does not open His mouth. “In humiliation His judgment was taken away; Who will relate His generation? For His life is removed from the earth.” The eunuch answered Philip and said, “Please tell me, of whom does the prophet say this? Of himself or of someone else?” Then Philip opened his mouth, and beginning from this Scripture he preached Jesus to him. As they went along the road they came to some water; and the eunuch *said, “Look! Water! What prevents me from being baptized?” And Philip said, “If you believe with all your heart, you may.” And he answered and said, “I believe that Jesus
 
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Grailhunter

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Acts 22:12-16
“A certain Ananias, a man who was devout by the standard of the Law, and well spoken of by all the Jews who lived there, came to me, and standing near said to me, ‘Brother Saul, receive your sight!’ And at that very time I looked up at him. And he said, ‘The God of our fathers has appointed you to know His will and to see the Righteous One and to hear an utterance from His mouth. For you will be a witness for Him to all men of what you have seen and heard. Now why do you delay? Get up and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on His name.’

Mark 1:8 John the Baptist said, I indeed have baptized you with water: but he shall baptize you with the Holy Spirit.

Luke 3:3 Speaking of John the Baptist. And he came into all the country about Jordan, preaching the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.


John 3:5 “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter in to the Kingdom of God.”

John 3:22-23 After these things came Jesus and his disciples into the land of Judaea; and there he tarried with them, and baptized. And John also was baptizing in Aenon near to Salim, because there was much water there: and they came, and were baptized. Can you imagine being baptized by God!

Romans 6:4 Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life.

Titus 3:5
He saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit.

Along with the beliefs that in Baptism we die in Christ, the person that emerges from the water as a new person. Meaning, completely and totally a new person, consequently the Trinity having no memory of the old person, their sins, or their poor character. It is the proverbial, instance of starting out with a new slate. This belief has some historical precedence in the early Church, for one, some would wait until they were near death to be baptized, thinking that way their soul would be free of sin when it came time to face judgment. It has been said that Emperor Constantine did this.

Unfortunately the Apostles do not address the possibility of those that would oppose the truth…they do not address the possibility of those that would have the audacity to opposed their teaching on the processes that should be followed for salvation….there is no section in the New Testament labeled the “The Idiot’s Book for Scriptural Understanding.”

For those that do not have the Spirit of Christ in them…no scripture will matter…no testimony of early Christians beliefs will matter. The ecumenical councils will not matter…1500 years of Christian history will not matter. The Holy Bible speaks of spiritual things and events…those that do not have the Spirit of Christ in them will never be able to understand the simplest of words….much less the Spirit of Christianity.

There is a psychological side of this because some people have trouble forgiving themselves. I think Paul was one of these. With that person no longer existing a person can better understand that they can move forward with their walk with Christ. There is a possibly of a redemptive quality that goes beyond the norm here. For those that have done horrible things or the unpardonable sin it is like that person never existed, so all is forgiven. Alternatively it denies Satan any venue to accuse you of not being good enough to be a Christian. Thoughts and beliefs vary on this.
 
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bbyrd009

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Ah you wound me beloved. But I forgive you.

I dont see your sig on my phone browser, please post it for me if you wish..

Peace!
ha that is why i love Catholics so much; they can be so forgiving.
i was just being evil i guess, my sig is not important prolly. to you anyway
1 Corinthians 15:24

but you might understand how inviting Christians to the "wedding feast" sounds coming from you bro
and makes assertions that he has the authority to say these things and to make changes, which if you read prophecy in scripture says would be done. So lets look.

In his encyclical, "The Reunion of Christendom" (1885), Pope Leo XIII stated that the pope holds "upon this earth the place of God Almighty."

In the Catechism, can be found the following: "The Pope takes the place of Jesus Christ on earth...by divine right the pope has supreme and full power in faith and morals over each and every pastor and his flock. He is the true Vicar of Christ, the head of the entire church, the father and teacher of all Christians He is the infallible ruler, the founder of dogmas, the author of and the judge of councils; the universal ruler of truth, the arbiter of the world, the supreme judge of heaven and earth, the judge of all, being judged by one, God himself on earth." and also "The Pope can make and unmake laws for the entire Church; his authority is supreme and unquestioned. Every bishop, every priest, every member of the Church is subject to him."

Here are some others…"The Pope is not simply the representative of Jesus Christ. On the contrary, he is Jesus Christ Himself, under the veil of the flesh." (Evangelical Christendom, January 1, 1895, pg. 15, published in London by J. S. Phillips)

"Against this background of love towards Holy Church, 'the pillar and bulwark of the truth' (1 Tim 3:15), we readily understand the devotion of Saint Francis of Assisi for 'THE LORD POPE', the daughterly outspokenness of Saint Catherine of Siena towards the one whom she called 'SWEET CHRIST ON EARTH'." (Pope John Paul II, Apostolic Exhortation on the Consecrated Life and Its Mission in the Church and in the World, to the bishops and clergy, religious orders and congregations, societies of apostolic life, secular institutes, and all the faithful, given in Rome, at Saint Peter's, March 25, 1996)

"The Pope is of so great dignity, and so exalted that he is not a mere man, but as it were God and the vicar of God." (Ferraris Ecclesiastical dictionary)

"All names which in the Scriptures are applied to Christ, by virtue of which it is established that He is over the church, all the same names are applied to the Pope." (On the Authority of the Councils, book 2, chapter 17)

"The Pope and God are the same, so he has all power in Heaven and earth." (Pope Pius V, quoted in Barclay, Chapter XXVII, p. 218, "Cities Petrus Bertanous)

"To believe that our Lord God the Pope has not the power to decree as he is decreed, is to be deemed heretical." (the Gloss "Extravagantes" o.f Pope John XXII *** inter, Tit. XIV, Cap. IV. Ad Callem Sexti Decretalium, Paris, 1685)

"Hence the Pope is crowned with a triple crown, as king of heaven and of earth and of the lower regions." (Ferraris, «Prompta Bibliotheca», 1763, Volume VI, 'Papa II', p.26)

"The Saviour Himself is the door of the sheepfold: 'I am the door of the sheep.' Into this fold of Jesus Christ, no man may enter unless he be led by the Sovereign Pontiff; and only if they be united to him can men be saved, for the Roman Pontiff is the Vicar of Christ and His personal representative on earth." (Pope John XXIII in his homily to the Bishops and faithful assisting at his coronation on November 4, 1958)

"This is our last lesson to you: receive it, engrave it in your minds, all of you: by God's commandment salvation is to be found nowhere but in the Church; the strong and effective instrument of salvation is none other than the Roman Pontificate." (Pope Leo XIII, Allocution for the 25th anniversary of his election, February 20, 1903; Papal Teachings: The Church, Benedictine Monks of Solesmes, St. Paul Editions, Boston, 1962, par. 653)

He calls himself the Supreme ruler of heaven and earth, the Supreme Pontiff, the Holy Father, which belong only to God and "God himself on earth". No such terms were given to a mere man anywhere in scripture and the term "Holy Father" is used only by Jesus in John 17:11 as He prayed to God the Father. For a sinful man to assume the authority and titles which belong only to God, seems the height of blasphemy.

So the Pope has laid claim to take the place of God with infallible authority and we find the Council of Trent declared: "Sitting in that chair in which Peter, the Prince of the Apostles, sat to the close of life, the Catholic Church recognizes in his person the most exalted degree of dignity, and the full jurisdiction not based on constitutions, but emanating from no less authority than from God Himself. As the Successor of St. Peter and the true and legitimate Vicar of Jesus Christ, he therefore, presides over the Universal Church, the Father and Governor of all the faithful, of Bishops, also and of all other prelates, be their station, rant, or power, what they may be."

So its not just the Pope, the councils have also laid claim that the Pope holds of himself what can only be termed as "God on Earth".
see @Philip James this is not Christianity bro, and it is never going to be, ok? You too are invited to become a Christian, or bam go back behind your boundary stone and be the best Catholic you know how to be, i would never condemn you for that ok. Not saying Prots dont have their own probs, dont recog 1Cor15:24 either, but usurping Christ is not one of them. Be a christ yourself imo, sure; or keep your human, fallible king and understand the consequences
 
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bbyrd009

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Well, let me ask you a question... Why was John the Baptist doing baptisms? What was the purpose?
i really have no idea, sorry. Tbh i doubt it literally happened, although i certainly dont know.
but i guess baptism was hardly a new thing, and signified initiation, so my guess would be initiating ppl, mostly away from the theocracy/marching in files and rows, and into a new way of thinking, preparing the way
 

VictoryinJesus

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ah ok, and iyo the Jordan was chosen, so to speak?

fwiw i think i agree, but why, in this case?

not sure. I’ve never seen the Jordan and honestly don’t know much about it. To show the condition of hearts maybe. To declare Him. 1 Corinthians 1:27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;
 
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