John 3:5... YES! ANOTHER BAPTISM THREAD!

[Hidden In Him]

Hello HiH,

I'm not sure I understand your question. Are you asking why we do not immediately have our bodies changed to glorified immortal bodies?

Yeah. If the baptism in the Holy Spirit gives new life to the spirit man instantaneously, why does water baptism not give new life to the body instantaneously as well? See, Cyril draws a parallel between the two baptisms in his teaching, as both having supernatural efficacy.

If so, what exactly is it's efficacy upon the body, and why is the body not delivered into newness of life immediately just as the spirit is?

 

[Ezra]

Yes

yes what? we are united in Christ the moment we get saved. by on spirit are we baptized into the Body of christ

 

[Ezra]

It is here, at baptism, that we are truly born again and become children of God.

It is to these baptismal waters that the Bride and Spirit say 'come'.

this IS NOT BIBLE the Holy spirit at our new birth does that 17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.
Ephesians 2:1-3 King James Version (KJV)
2 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
Colossians 2:13 King James Version (KJV)
13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

 

[Philip James]

yes what? we are united in Christ the moment we get saved. by on spirit are we baptized into the Body of christ

Yes it is a marriage cermony. Baptism is the nuptial bath that purifies us and dresses us in our wedding gown.

That we might enter the wedding chamber and be intimately united with our Groom.

And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

It is to this nuptial bath that the Spirit and the Church call us...

Let the hearers say 'Come'.

Peace be with you!

Christ is risen!
Alleluia!

 

[Philip James]

Yeah. If the baptism in the Holy Spirit gives new life to the spirit man instantaneously, why does water baptism not give new life to the body instantaneously as well?

Ah, well I'm not qualified to answer why God made it thus, but for our good and His glory, surely!

See, Cyril draws a parallel between the two baptisms in his teaching, as both having supernatural efficacy.

If so, what exactly is it's efficacy upon the body, and why is the body not delivered into newness of life immediately just as the spirit is?

I think you are mistaken if you think Cyril is speaking of 2 baptisms here. (Unless you mean his reference to the baptism of martyrdom)

The efficacy the water on the body is no different than any bath, (and perhaps this answers your question above) but its purpose is not the resoration of the body, but rather the restoration of the soul, and the new birth in Christ.

Christ is risen!
Alleluia!

 

[Ezra]

Yes it is a marriage cermony. Baptism is the nuptial bath that purifies us and dresses us in our wedding gown.

That we might enter the wedding chamber and be intimately united with our Groom.



It is to this nuptial bath that the Spirit and the Church call us...

Let the hearers say 'Come'.

Peace be with you!

Christ is risen!
Alleluia!

remind me not to use your bible .because mine dont read that way

 

[Philip James]

remind me not to use your bible .because mine dont read that way

Hmm, perhaps you should reread it with the theme of marriage as a lens?

The Bible is Jesus' love letters to us..
The old covenant the betrothel, the new the consumation.

And what Grace, what mercy! That we gentiles have been welcomed into that union!

Peace be with you!

 

[Grailhunter]

You seem to be saying that both water baptism and communion have power, but it is not something we should expect to understand, yes?

To that, I'd say it's just a position that's foreign to my walk with God. Whenever I've had questions about something, I've always gone to Him in prayer and believed He would reveal it to me, according to among others the promise given in James 1:5-8.

As a result, He always has...

I don't know what else to say really, except that we appear to be diametrically opposed in our opinions when it comes to this. And it would make coming to an agreement on something like the issue discussed in this thread... utterly impossible, because I think it is understandable and you do not.

Perfectly ok. It just doesn't leave us with any common ground to continue discussing it.

You seem to be saying that both water baptism and communion have power, but it is not something we should expect to understand, yes?
We can pretty much be for sure we can not understand the spiritual realm....the total understanding of God. The simplest of things like the power and authority of John the Baptist to forgive sins.

I don't know what else to say really, except that we appear to be diametrically opposed in our opinions when it comes to this.
Opinions....man you have got to be kidding. What you are saying is another religion outside of the Bible. It is not in the Bible...it is not after the Bible....it is not centuries after the Bible.....it is not a millennium after the Bible....somewhere during the Protestant era, some guy stood up and decided to come up with this. You need to find out who this guy is because you need to get on your knees and worship him because he is your new god. But it is not the Bible. Believe what you want but don't piss down my back and tell me it raining.

 

[Ezra]

Hmm, perhaps you should reread it with the theme of marriage as a lens?

no i fully understand the marriage / And what Grace, what mercy! That we gentiles have been welcomed into that union! what its not is water baptism

 

[Philip James]

no i fully understand the marriage / And what Grace, what mercy! That we gentiles have been welcomed into that union! what its not is water baptism

How can you 'fully understand the marriage' and not see that Baptism is our nuptial bath?

Perhaps you should explain your understanding of the marriage?

Peace!

 

[FHII]

Yes it is a marriage cermony. Baptism is the nuptial bath that purifies us and dresses us in our wedding gown.

That we might enter the wedding chamber and be intimately united with our Groom.

Look, my whole reason for this thread is to talk about John 3:5. I am looking to see if the water talked about in that verse is spiritual water or literal water. I brought it up because those who absolutely believe water baptism is necessary bring it up as proof it must be done. I disagree.

But this is a side conversation that has peaked my interest! Perhaps it will prove to be related.

So we have water baptism. I am not against it, but who is it for? Who is baptized in a water baptism?

I have seen a water baptism. A young lady was submerged in water and came up. It was a moving ceremony! But it was a young lady... It was an individual. It was her moment. It was an individual being baptized.

That should NOT be called a marriage to Christ. That young lady was not the bride of Christ. She wore all white like the bride, she adorned herself like the bride, she was willing like the bride, but she was not the bride.

The Church is the bride. One body, many members. This was an individual member of the bride (and she was before she got in that large tub) getting baptized.

But she was not the bride of Christ. And that was not the bride taking her nuptial bath.

If you want to say the bride of Christ must be baptized in water to make herself ready, we all should've been in their with her! She was cute... I would've been all for it!

But yes, I agree the Bride of Christ (one body, many members) should be baptized. But neither the Pastor, the girl, nor her parents would've wanted us all in the tub!

And to anyone who thinks I am being rediculous in my analogies or hyperboles you ought to read the Church fathers like Augustine, Tertillian and Luther! Like them, I am being rediculous to make a point.

The Bible says in several places we must be baptized into Christ. That is, be immersed in him. A marriage involves the bride taking the man's name (or nature). Names often in the Bible reflect nature.

We must take his name or nature. The bride of Christ is the Church, not the individual, but the individual is part of the bride.

So if any liken baptism to being married to Christ, you must also consent that it is a spiritual bond by spiritual water.

 

[Enoch111]

But this is a side conversation that has peaked my interest!

It has certainly piqued your interest, but the discussion has also peaked. Once you reach the summit, it is all downhill from there.

 

[FHII]

It has certainly piqued your interest, but the discussion has also peaked. Once you reach the summit, it is all downhill from there.

View attachment 7909

So are you chiding me for my fault in grammar or in my persuing a conversation that has run it's course? Either way, I accept the rebuke and agree.

I have made my point, and it's time to move on.

 

[Philip James]

That should NOT be called a marriage to Christ. That young lady was not the bride of Christ. She wore all white like the bride, she adorned herself like the bride, she was willing like the bride, but she was not the bride.

Hi FHII,

Baptism is just the begining. In being born into the kingdom she can now enter the wedding chamber and be united with the Groom in the Eucharist.

It is here that we are intimately united with Him, and with each other. One Groom, one Bride, the 2 made one flesh..

"For this reason a man shall leave (his) father and (his) mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh."

This is a great mystery, but I speak in reference to Christ and the church.

So if any liken baptism to being married to Christ, you must also consent that it is a spiritual bond by spiritual water.

Indeed. And we recieve this indelible bond at our Baptism (with water!)

Peace be with you!

 

[Ezra]

How can you 'fully understand the marriage' and not see that Baptism is our nuptial bath?

Perhaps you should explain your understanding of the marriage?

Peace!

no i have asked you for explanation i have got nothing but catholic teaching /interpretation . water baptism dos NOT REGENERATE IT US . it a spiritual birth .several have pointed your error . so i have no need except these few words Jesus paid it all not water baptism

 

[Ezra]

If you want to say the bride of Christ must be baptized in water to make herself ready,

taks the doctrine justified by the Blood none effect. Romans 5:9 Therefore, since we have now been justified by His blood, how much more shall we be saved from wrath through Him!

 

[Philip James]

no i have asked you for explanation i have got nothing but catholic teaching

Thank you for the compliment.
Indeed my teaching is not my own, but that of my brothers and sisters for 2000 years.... You might want to give it an honest hearing...

But come now you said:

i fully understand the marriage

So share your understanding, allow me to give it an honest hearing rather than just saying my catholic brethren have it wrong....

Peace!

 

[Ezra]

Baptism is just the beginning. In being born into the kingdom she can now enter the wedding chamber and be united with the Groom in the Eucharist.

book of the bible chapter verse that reads that exact way scripture please that reads word for word like that. other wise your adding to the word.

 

[Ezra]

Thank you for the compliment.
Indeed my teaching is not my own, but that of my brothers and sisters for 2000 years.... You might want to give it an honest hearing...

But come now you said:



So share your understanding, allow me to give it an honest hearing rather than just saying my catholic brethren have it wrong....

Peace!

tell you what you give scripture that back what you say up word for word

 

[Ezra]

So share your understanding, allow me to give it an honest hearing rather than just saying my catholic brethren have it wrong....

sorry but i am not in the witness stand your defending YOUR beelief .i have don showed mine with scripture . you have go some 2000 year old interpolation . i don't want catholic teaching . i want the word of God thus saith the Lord