John 8:24, 28, 58 - Jesus Christ IS YHWH

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ByGraceThroughFaith

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The apostle John wrote his life account of Jesus Christ in the Greek language, not in Hebrew; and in the Greek text the controversial expression is "Egoeimi." Just by itself, without any introductory material ahead of it, Egoeimi means “I am.” Now this expression Egoeimi occurs also at John 8:24, 28; and in those verses the Authorized or king James Version and the Douay Version and others render the expression into English as “I am he,” the pronoun he being put in italics to indicate that the pronoun he is added or inserted. But here, in John 8:58, those versions do not render this same expression as “I am he,” but only as “I am.” They want to give us the idea that Jesus was not simply referring to his existence but also giving himself a title that belongs to YHWH God, in imitation of Exodus 3:14.

When writing John 8:58, the apostle John was not quoting from the Greek Septuagint Version, a translation of the Hebrew Scriptures made by Greek-speaking Jews of Alexandria, Egypt, before the birth of Christ. Anyone who reads Greek if you compare John 8:58 in Greek and Exodus 3:14 in the Greek Septuagint, he/she will find that the Septuagint reading of Exodus 3:14 does not use the expression Egoeimi by itself for God’s name, when God says to Moses: “I AM hath sent me unto you.” The Greek Septuagint uses the expression ho On, which means “The Being,” or, “The One who is.” This fact is clearly presented to us in Bagster’s translation of the Greek Septuagint, at Exodus 3:14, which reads: “And God spoke to Moses, saying, I am THE BEING [ho On]; and he said, Thus shall ye say to the children of Israel, THE BEING [ho On] has sent me to you.” According to Charles Thomson’s translation of the Greek Septuagint, Exodus 3:14 reads: “God spoke to Moses saying, I am The I Am [ho On]. Moreover he said, Thus shalt thou say to the children of Israel, The I Am ho On hath sent me to you.” Thus this comparison of the two Greek texts, that of the Septuagint and that of John 8:58, removes all basis for trinitarians to argue that Jesus, in John 8:58, was trying to fit Exodus 3:14 to himself, as if he was YHWH God. The Greek expression Egoeimi isn't in Exodus 3:14 by itself. So Exodus 3:14 in the Greek Septuagint doesn't say the "I Am" sent me, It says, "I Am The Being" sent me.[Egoeimi ho On]
So at John 8:58 the Greek expression "Egoeimi" (I Am) is there, not "Egoeimi ho On," which is the Greek expression used at Exodus 3:14 in the Septuagint Version.

as I have shown in the OP, the LXX for Exodus 3:14 reads, "Ἐγώ εἰμι ὁ ὤν”, literally, “I am the Existing One”. The LXX translates the first Hebrew verb “’ehyeh”, as "Ἐγώ εἰμι", which is exactly what Jesus says in John 8:24, 58. The second “’ehyeh”, is rendered in the LXX as "ὁ ὤν”, which give the meaning of what the Hebrew is actually saying, "The Eternal One", “’ehyeh” is in the first person singular, “to exist, to be”, which is the root of the Name of God, "Yahweh", which is in Exodus 3:15. Jesus is clearly saying that He is YHWH, for which the Jews wanted to stone Him in John 8:59, as they considered what Jesus said as blasphemy.
 
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BARNEY BRIGHT

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as I have shown in the OP, the LXX for Exodus 3:14 reads, "Ἐγώ εἰμι ὁ ὤν”, literally, “I am the Existing One”. The LXX translates the first Hebrew verb “’ehyeh”, as "Ἐγώ εἰμι", which is exactly what Jesus says in John 8:24, 58. The second “’ehyeh”, is rendered in the LXX as "ὁ ὤν”, which give the meaning of what the Hebrew is actually saying, "The Eternal One", “’ehyeh” is in the first person singular, “to exist, to be”, which is the root of the Name of God, "Yahweh", which is in Exodus 3:15. Jesus is clearly saying that He is YHWH, for which the Jews wanted to stone Him in John 8:59, as they considered what Jesus said as blasphemy.

The Greek expression egoeimi must be takened in the context that it's written. Many teach when discussing John 8:58 that Jesus was discussing with the Jews, who he was, when in fact, he was telling the Jews that he was alive before Abraham was born. This is the context I will keep the greek expression Egoeimi at John 8:58. Just because the only begotten Son of God, was living before Abraham was born, doesn't mean he's YHWH God.
 

Blue Dragonfly's

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100% equal to?
Jesus was the father.
[QOTE="ByGraceThroughFaith, post: 997236, member: 10135"]All that I have said in the OP is completely Biblical. You reject it because you can't accept that Jesus Christ IS the Great I AM. Almighty God and uncreated and 100% equal to God the Father[/QUOTE]
 
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ByGraceThroughFaith

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100% equal to?
Jesus was the father.
[QOTE="ByGraceThroughFaith, post: 997236, member: 10135"]All that I have said in the OP is completely Biblical. You reject it because you can't accept that Jesus Christ IS the Great I AM. Almighty God and uncreated and 100% equal to God the Father
[/QUOTE]

Jesus Christ is NOT the same Person as God the Father. They are Two Distinct Persons, Who are equally Almighty God
 

ByGraceThroughFaith

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The Greek expression egoeimi must be takened in the context that it's written. Many teach when discussing John 8:58 that Jesus was discussing with the Jews, who he was, when in fact, he was telling the Jews that he was alive before Abraham was born. This is the context I will keep the greek expression Egoeimi at John 8:58. Just because the only begotten Son of God, was living before Abraham was born, doesn't mean he's YHWH God.

Before Abraham Existed I AM
 

Carl Emerson

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I think the expressions Father and Son do not do justice to the nature of relationship in the trinity.

Folks refuse to allow for mystery as if the otherness of God must fit our simple language.

To expect the technical analysis of words to reveal the depth of God is a fallacy.
 

ByGraceThroughFaith

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I think the expressions Father and Son do not do justice to the nature of relationship in the trinity.

Folks refuse to allow for mystery as if the otherness of God must fit our simple language.

To expect the technical analysis of words to reveal the depth of God is a fallacy.

but Father and Son are Biblical Terms?
 

ByGraceThroughFaith

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How do you know?

Read the context of John 1

verses 1-4

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same (ουτος, masculine) was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through Him (αυτου, masculine). Without Him (αυτου, masculine), nothing was made that has been made. 4 In Him (αυτω, masculine) was life, and the life was the light of men"

The Word, Jesus Christ, is said to be in PERSONAL relation with (προς) the Father. This same "Word", is the Personal Creator of all things, and the Giver and Source of all Life.

This same "Word was made flesh and lived among us", which is the Lord Jesus Christ.

In his First Epistle John is clear Who The Word is:

"That which was from the beginning, that which we have heard, that which we have seen with our eyes, that which we saw, and our hands touched, concerning the Word of life 2 (and the life was revealed, and we have seen, and testify, and declare to you the life, the eternal life, which was with the Father, and was revealed to us); 3 that which we have seen and heard we declare to you, that you also may have fellowship with us. Yes, and our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son, Jesus Christ" (chapter 1, verses 1-3)

This is also confirmed by the Original reading in John 1:18

"No one has ever seen God [the Father]; the Unique God [the Son] Who is at the Father's side He has made Him known"
 

Carl Emerson

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Read the context of John 1

verses 1-4

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same (ουτος, masculine) was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through Him (αυτου, masculine). Without Him (αυτου, masculine), nothing was made that has been made. 4 In Him (αυτω, masculine) was life, and the life was the light of men"

The Word, Jesus Christ, is said to be in PERSONAL relation with (προς) the Father. This same "Word", is the Personal Creator of all things, and the Giver and Source of all Life.

This same "Word was made flesh and lived among us", which is the Lord Jesus Christ.

In his First Epistle John is clear Who The Word is:

"That which was from the beginning, that which we have heard, that which we have seen with our eyes, that which we saw, and our hands touched, concerning the Word of life 2 (and the life was revealed, and we have seen, and testify, and declare to you the life, the eternal life, which was with the Father, and was revealed to us); 3 that which we have seen and heard we declare to you, that you also may have fellowship with us. Yes, and our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son, Jesus Christ" (chapter 1, verses 1-3)

This is also confirmed by the Original reading in John 1:18

"No one has ever seen God [the Father]; the Unique God [the Son] Who is at the Father's side He has made Him known"

I appreciate your interpretation, for me I am at peace with Jesus being the Living Word of God and inseparable from Him.
 

Wrangler

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I think the expressions Father and Son do not do justice to the nature of relationship in the trinity.

Folks refuse to allow for mystery as if the otherness of God must fit our simple language.

To expect the technical analysis of words to reveal the depth of God is a fallacy.

No. It reveals the fallacy of the trinity in the presumption that God is unable to communicate the relationship between him and his elected children.
 

ByGraceThroughFaith

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I have already showed you out of scripture your error.

There is nothing further to respond to here.

there is NOTHING that you, or the other deniers of Bible TRUTH, that God is THREE distinct Persons, has said, that in any way shows any of the OP to be wrong!

Your arguments are against the Infallible, Inerrant, Word of God!
 

ByGraceThroughFaith

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I’m sorry. What verse says Jesus is YHWH? Just 1 will do.

Funny. 2 don’t make a trinity.

I have already shown this on here before, but you choose to ignore what the Bible says, especially when your views are shown to be in error

Again I will ask, WHO is the Speaker, in context, in Isaiah 48:16, Who says that He is being Sent by ANOTHER Person, Who is "Adonay Yahweh”? to help you, here are some of the things that this Speaker says, "in verse 3, “I have declared the former things from the beginning”, and verse 5, “I have even from the beginning declared it to you”. In verse 12 and 13 the Speaker says, “Listen to Me, O Jacob and Israel, My called; I am He, I am the First, I also am the Last. My hand has also laid the foundation of the earth, and My right hand spread out the heavens”. In verse 15 we read, “I, even I have spoken, yes, and I have called him. In verse 17 it says, Thus said Yahweh, your Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel; I am Yahweh your God which teaches you to profit, which leads you by the way that you should go". Very clear that the Speaker is YHWH!

Zechariah 2:6-11

“Come! Come! Flee from the land of the north,’ says Yahweh; ‘for I have spread you abroad as the four winds of the sky,’ says Yahweh. ‘Come, Zion! Escape, you who dwell with the daughter of Babylon.’ For Yahweh of Armies says: ‘For Honor He has sent Me to the nations which plundered you; for he who touches you touches the apple of His eye. For, behold, I will shake My hand over them, and they will be a plunder to those who served them; and you will know that Yahweh of Armies has sent Me. Sing and rejoice, daughter of Zion; for, behold, I Come, and I will dwell within you,’ says Yahweh. Many nations shall join themselves to Yahweh in that day, and shall be My people; and I will dwell among you, and you shall know that Yahweh of Armies has sent Me to you

This is one of the clearest passages in the Old Testament, where we read of Two distinct Persons, Who are called, Yahweh.

The passage teaches about the Coming of the Lord Jesus Christ. It is clear that the Speaker is Yahweh, Who says that He is “Sent” by Another Person, Who is “Yahweh of Armies”. The One Who is “Sent”, cannot be the same Person, as the One who “Sends”, they are very much distinct, but coequal.

In Matthew 11:10, and the other Gospels, Jesus says: "For this is he, of whom it is written, Behold, I send my messenger before your face, which shall prepare your way before you"

In the original words found in Malachi 3:1, where the Speaker is Yahweh. The Greek of Matthew 11:10 ( Mark 1:1-3; Luke 7:27), the words are neither from the Hebrew or Greek (LXX) of the passage in Malachi. Instead, The Lord Jesus Christ, on His own Authority, has changed the words, so that they refer directly to Himself, what is in Malachi, of Yahweh. Jesus has changed the first person, “before Me (μου)”, to the second person, “before thee (σου)”. In the passage in Malachi, Yahweh speaks of the “messenger”, who is John the Baptist, as His forerunner, “going before Him”. Jesus, by changing the pronoun, appropriates what Yahweh Speaks in Malachi, to Himself, and makes John the Baptist as His own “messenger”, who went before Him! In the passage in Malachi, we also have the Coming of the “the Messenger (Angel) of the Covenant”, Who is “the Lord ('âdôn) Whom you seek”, before Whom John the Baptist went to “prepare the Way”!

Matthew 3:3, and the other Gospels, also teaches that John the Baptist was the Forerunner of Yahweh, as in Jesus Christ, “God manifested in the flesh” (1 Timothy 3:16. Pauls words)

“For this is he that was spoken of by the prophet Isaiah, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare you the Way of the Lord, make His paths straight.”

In the original verse in Isaiah 40:3, it reads, “The voice of him that cries in the wilderness, Prepare you the Way of the LORD (Yahweh), make straight in the desert a highway for our God”

By using this passage in Isaiah for the Coming of the Lord Jesus Christ, in the Gospels, is beyond any doubt, one of the strongest evidences in Scripture, for the absolute Deity of the Lord Jesus Christ! Only those who doubt the Word of God, will doubt this about Jesus Christ.

In 1 Corinthians 10:9, Paul says:

“We must not put the Christ to the test, as some of them did and were destroyed by serpents”

This verse is a clear quotation from the Old Testament passage in Numbers, where it reads:

“Then they journeyed from Mount Hor by the Way of the Red Sea, to go around the land of Edom; and the soul of the people became very discouraged on the way. And the people spoke against God and against Moses: “Why have you brought us up out of Egypt to die in the wilderness? For there is no food and no water, and our soul loathes this worthless bread.” So Yahweh sent fiery serpents among the people, and they bit the people; and many of the people of Israel died.” (21:4-6)

In this passage in Numbers, it is clear that the children of Israel complained against “'ĕlôhı̂ym”. It then goes on to say, that “Yahweh” sent “fiery serpents among the people”, that killed many.

On the Name “Yahweh, the Hebrew and English Lexicon, by F Brown, S R Driver and C A Briggs, says:

“Yahweh, the proper name of the God of Israel...the one bringing into being, life-giver, giver of existence, creator, he who brings to pass...he who causes...the one who is: i.e. the absolute and unchangeable one, the existing, ever-living” (pages 217-218)

In 1 Corinthians 10, Paul, writing under the Inspiration of God the Holy Spirit, says that this “Yahweh” in Numbers 21:6, is Jesus Christ.

VERY CLEAR Teaching from the Bible, where Jesus Christ is YHWH.

For the Holy Spirit, He is also YHWH

2 Samuel 23:2,

“The Spirit of the LORD spoke by me, And His word was on my tongue”.

Here we have the Hebrew “דִּבֶּר־בִּי”, “Speaks by me”, which is in the masculine, singular. Also, “וּמִלָּתוֹ”, “His word”, is masculine singular, both referring to “רוּח”, “the Spirit”. The subject here is “רוּח”, Who spoke the very Words through David, as though the Spirit Himself was the Speaker. The words in verse 3, also are of the Holy Spirit, “The God of Israel said, The Rock of Israel spoke to me: ‘He who rules over men must be just, Ruling in the fear of God”. In this passage, we have the “Personality” and Deity of the Holy Spirit, where He is called Yahweh and Elohim

In Isaiah 40:13-14 we read:

“Who has directed the Spirit of YHWH, Or man of counsel of Him he makes Him known? With whom [did] He consult, That he causes Him to understand? And teaches Him in the path of judgment, And teaches Him knowledge? And causes Him to know the way of understanding?”

The Words “who taught Him”, is in the Masoretic Text (MT), of the Hebrew Old Testament, “יודיענו”. However, in the Dead Sea Scrolls (DSS), it reads, “יודיענה”, which is literally, “who taught Her”, as it is feminine and not masculine. The MT refers back to “יְהוָ֑ה (YHWH)”; whereas the DSS, refers to, “ר֖וּחַ (Spirit)”. The reading of the DSS does not mean that the “Spirit” is “female”, but is grammatical, for agreement with “Spirit”, and not “YHWH”, though in this case, “The Spirit of YHWH”, is One and the same Person. Even with the feminine reading, the English would read, “Him”. All of what is said in this passage, is spoken of the Holy Spirit, Who is Almighty God

Again VERY CLEAR that the Holy Spirit is YHWH, which, as we can see from the older reading in the DSS, which refers the words to the Holy Spirit, has been corrupted by the Jewish copyists, to remove this reference to the Deity of the Holy Spirit.

This is BIBLICAL Evidence, we have THREE distinct Persons Who are equally YHWH!
 

Carl Emerson

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No. It reveals the fallacy of the trinity in the presumption that God is unable to communicate the relationship between him and his elected children.

He can communicate it, but folks insist it must be written...
 

Wrangler

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I have already shown this on here before, but you choose to ignore what the Bible says
No. A trinitarian tactic is to pretend there are so many verses that "support" your doctrine. I'm just asking for one verse that actually states your doctrine, that Jesus is YHWH.

That you cannot do it is seen in the fact that you do not produce it. Instead of producing the Biblical support, you change the argument to me and what I ignore.