John Calvin and Calvinism.

[Grailhunter]

Grailhunter, if you can honestly say you have spent time reading his work I could respect your opinion. I don't believe you have because anyone who has would see that this whole predestination vs. Free will debate was just a drop in the ocean compared to everything he discussed.

I have literally discussed this with you before. If I try to describe my education, people think I am bragging.

You cannot go to college to study such things and not study the reformers.....LOL

Predestination as a reality can be suggested with the same rational that Yahweh is a sadistic fertility God and is a God of mass murder, and He taught His followers to do the same. Which is not true and it is the foundation of evil that would prevent it from being true. And that Christ was a pacifist that would never raise a hand against evil.

But if thats all you want to talk about then the required reading JUST TO GET STARTED is the 3 chapters in Institutes. Thats entry level! That makes you a white belt.

I have certainly read more of John Calvin's writings than most Calvinists. His writings are intelligent show a great understanding of the scriptures at the sentence level. But his writings show he did not understand the ramifications of putting his beliefs in motion or the permeating evilness of his conclusions. But physically we can see his beliefs in motion. The city of Geneva, Switzerland....and his attempt to employ a form of theocracy to the structure of the government and the governing of the people of that town. Forcing residents to comply to his religious beliefs, his religious interpretations of the scriptures.

Like I said he could not figure out Christianity or the Bible and was not a scholar of biblical languages, because he made the same mistakes as his contemporaries. His final formulation of Christian concepts shows a lack of understanding of the Spirit of Christ or Christianity. He missed a step or could not comprehend it or rationalize it. After you know the Bible backwards and forwards the next level of understanding is understanding the Sprit of Christ and Christianity. That is the level that he missed....did not know was there....or could not comprehend it.

As far as today's Calvinism....it has not got any better.
Perspective..... Calvinists are good people and good people that love God....Is putting concepts in motion or seeing the ramifications of concepts a skill? Or is it an ability of the mind that not all have? Modern Calvinists would have the same mental limitations as John.

Good or bad the religion has destroyed people and families....and mostly it is the concept of the elect....looking at themselves better than others because they are "the elect" or bad things happen to them and their families and they think they are not the elect or God does not love them. This is a historical observation. I have seen it and have had to deal with it on several occasions and sometimes at the legal level, particularly the separatists.

Bad things happen to the family and they are so distraught that they abandon God and Christianity.

And you know why there are not so many female Calvinists on this forum. Know their place....another failure to understand the Spirit of Christianity.

 

[PinSeeker]

After reading this it is easy for me to say, you are wrong on all counts.

Sure, I expected that would be your opinion. So be it.

Paul would never accuse God of the evil that you people do.

No Christian accuses God of evil.

With the robot reality that you guys fantasize about...

There is no "robot mentality." That's just demagoguery. In a real sense... well, I'll use two different passages of Scripture to make my point. Here's what God does:

• "...(God) says to Moses, 'I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion... (God) has mercy on whomever He wills, and He hardens whomever He wills.-” (Romans 9:15, 18)

• "(God gives those whom He has mercy on) a new heart, and a new spirit (He puts) within (them). And (He removes) the heart of stone from (their) flesh and (gives them) a heart of flesh. And (He puts His) Spirit within (them), and (causes them) to walk in (His) statutes and be careful to obey (His) rules. (They are then His) people, and (He is their) God. And (He delivers them) from all (their) uncleannesses." (Ezekiel 11:19-20, 36:24-29)

​

• For His elect, He opens the blind eyes, unstops the deaf ears, curing their lameness, and causes the mute tongue to sing for joy. And continuing ~ because this is one of my favorite passages in the Bible ~ ultimately, all the ransomed of the LORD (again, His elect) shall return and come to Zion with singing, and everlasting joy shall be upon their heads, and they shall obtain gladness and joy, and sorrow and sighing shall flee away. (paraphrasing Isaiah 35:5-10).

​

...there would have been no reason for Christ.

Ah, now we're getting to the issue. Just because God elects some unto salvation and some not does not negate or lessen in any way the need for Christ and His work of atonement on the cross. Adam's fall in Genesis 3 made that an absolute necessity. And that was God's plan from all eternity, actually, before the foundation of the world, as Scripture says.

No absolute stupidity.

LOL! I agree with the "no stupidity" thing (wherever that came from...).

Predestined as reality has no merit purpose.

I'm... not sure I understand this statement. Do you mean to say that "predestination... if it were a reality, would have no merit or purpose"? Is that what you mean? Whatever the case, both Paul and Peter mention explicitly that we Christians are predestined. So how do you deal with that? What do you think that means? Now, if you answer, keep in mind that if you say that God's predestination of certain people (His elect) to be conformed to Christ and to eternal life is contingent or depends on our free-will choice, then that flies directly in the face of Romans 9:14-18, where Paul says:

"What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God’s part? By no means! For he says to Moses, 'I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.' So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, 'For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.' So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills."​

What I would say to all this is, if God's purpose of election is denied (which can't be done because it is there in black and white in God's word), then that not only means that it does depend on human will or exertion (which is a direct refutation of the Romans 9 passage above), it makes the Biblical truth of predestination not really predestination at all but something altogether different. It's like calling... well, anything... the opposite of what that thing is.

I'd like to hear your take, Arminian as it may be.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[PinSeeker]

Working with people is something God has done in the whole Bible.....that is not predestination.

I see, so God is a "team member"... a "colleague"... LOL!

No, God works through people ~ even those who hate him ~ and other... "stuff" (circumstances)... to achieve His purposes, which cannot be thwarted, for His own glory. That is what He has done throughout all of history and will continue to do until He returns. And predestination is included in this. Two excerpts from Paul's great exposition in Romans:

• "But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, 'Why have you made me like this?' Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? What if God, desiring to show His wrath and to make known His power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of His glory for vessels of mercy, which He has prepared beforehand for glory ~ even us whom He has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?" (Romans 9:20-24)

• "For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable... God has consigned all to disobedience, that He may have mercy on all. Oh, the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and how inscrutable his ways! 'For who has known the mind of the Lord, or who has been His counselor? Or who has given a gift to Him that He might be repaid?' For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things. To Him be glory forever. Amen." (Romans 11:29-36)

Grace and peace to you.

 

[PinSeeker]

PinSeeker said: ...they don't really understand what Calvin himself said and wrote regarding sin...​

What I have put in bold is what really frustrates me about folks who want to discuss Calvin and "Calvinists". I don't believe many have read his work through.

Well, I would say that they may have... and even Grailhunter may have... but they can't accept it, because it's anathema to them. But this is just pride and arrogance (something we can all be guilty of from time to time in various ways) rearing its ugly head in them. Hey, that's a pitfall that Calvinists fall into sometimes in using their "bazooka of knowledge" around with a sort of reckless abandon (at least somewhat of a lack of grace and humility).

About 10 years ago I studied Calvin hard: his life and what he wrote. I have forgotten much of what I learned, but do recall what he said is a far cry from what people think he believed. I have often quipped that Calvin wasn't even a Calvinist!

Well, he wasn't a hyper-Calvinist. Hyper-Calvinism, which is a terrible distortion of what Calvin taught, is a real thing, but is not true, historical Calvinism at all. But that is what these folks are really reacting to, and they don't even know it.

I simply have to give up on some folks...

Well, it's not a salvific issue. Denying predestination and/or the complete ~ complete ~ sovereignty of God or that salvation is from beginning to end, whole and entire ~ of the Lord does not disqualify one from receiving God's mercy/compassion or His particular, saving grace. Only believing on Christ Jesus and repenting of sin is salvific. Now that doesn't make the discussion not worth having, or even unimportant. But discussion regarding, or even argument surrounding, this issue should not be allowed to cause or perpetuate any discord among brethren. I'm sure you agree with all this.

If you are willing to criticize the man, you should educate yourself about him by reading directly what he said. And many are unwilling to do so.

Agreed.

Grace and peace to you!

 

[Grailhunter]

No Christian accuses God of evil.

Remember that!

There is no "robot mentality."

YES.....AND I WILL OBEY! I WILL WORSHIP GOD BECAUSE I AM FORCED1

Ah, now we're getting to the issue. Just because God elects some unto salvation and some not does not negate or lessen in any way the need for Christ and His work of atonement on the cross. Adam's fall in Genesis 3 made that an absolute necessity. And that was God's plan from all eternity, actually, before the foundation of the world, as Scripture says.

I have the free will to disagree with you.

Sure, I expected that would be your opinion. So be it.


No Christian accuses God of evil.


There is no "robot mentality." That's just demagoguery. In a real sense... well, I'll use two different passages of Scripture to make my point. Here's what God does:

• "...(God) says to Moses, 'I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion... (God) has mercy on whomever He wills, and He hardens whomever He wills.-” (Romans 9:15, 18)

• "(God gives those whom He has mercy on) a new heart, and a new spirit (He puts) within (them). And (He removes) the heart of stone from (their) flesh and (gives them) a heart of flesh. And (He puts His) Spirit within (them), and (causes them) to walk in (His) statutes and be careful to obey (His) rules. (They are then His) people, and (He is their) God. And (He delivers them) from all (their) uncleannesses." (Ezekiel 11:19-20, 36:24-29)

​

• For His elect, He opens the blind eyes, unstops the deaf ears, curing their lameness, and causes the mute tongue to sing for joy. And continuing ~ because this is one of my favorite passages in the Bible ~ ultimately, all the ransomed of the LORD (again, His elect) shall return and come to Zion with singing, and everlasting joy shall be upon their heads, and they shall obtain gladness and joy, and sorrow and sighing shall flee away. (paraphrasing Isaiah 35:5-10).

​

Ah, now we're getting to the issue. Just because God elects some unto salvation and some not does not negate or lessen in any way the need for Christ and His work of atonement on the cross. Adam's fall in Genesis 3 made that an absolute necessity. And that was God's plan from all eternity, actually, before the foundation of the world, as Scripture says.


LOL! I agree with the "no stupidity" thing (wherever that came from...).


I'm... not sure I understand this statement. Do you mean to say that "predestination... if it were a reality, would have no merit or purpose"? Is that what you mean? Whatever the case, both Paul and Peter mention explicitly that we Christians are predestined. So how do you deal with that? What do you think that means? Now, if you answer, keep in mind that if you say that God's predestination of certain people (His elect) to be conformed to Christ and to eternal life is contingent or depends on our free-will choice, then that flies directly in the face of Romans 9:14-18, where Paul says:

"What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God’s part? By no means! For he says to Moses, 'I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.' So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, 'For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.' So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills."​

What I would say to all this is, if God's purpose of election is denied (which can't be done because it is there in black and white in God's word), then that not only means that it does depend on human will or exertion (which is a direct refutation of the Romans 9 passage above), it makes the Biblical truth of predestination not really predestination at all but something altogether different. It's like calling... well, anything... the opposite of what that thing is.

I'd like to hear your take, Arminian as it may be.

Grace and peace to you.

Human....robot.....rabbit....what purpose does it serve for God to have forced worship?....what does it mean to us to be forced to worship?

 

[Grailhunter]

I see, so God is a "team member"... a "colleague"... LOL!

Father.....children of God

 

[TEXBOW]

Why do some have difficulty with God's sovereignty and ability to give us free will? He is God.

Calvinist always start the debate at step 2. They do not want to start at step 1 on the definition of Elect and Predestination. The Elect are those who have made the free will choice to serve Christ. There are no elect prior to salvation. As followers of Christ we are predestined for many promises.

Not in theology but in value the Calvinist look at John Calvin much like the Mormons do Joseph Smith. For many Calvinism ultimately leads them to a point of view that we are born saved or have a ticket to hell. You're just a pawn in this thing called life. Salvation is much like marriage (why marriage is referenced many times in the scriptures). How much love is in a relationship that is forced? How happy is a husband that knows that his wife was forced into the relationship? How happy is the husband who knows his wife choose him because she loved him.

Why did God make man to begin with? For the purpose of fellowship. Fellowship with those who answer the knock, those that hear his calling, those who choose faith without seeing, those who believe.

Calvinism is the answer for those who wish to avoid ownership of sin. Jesus made me do it.

What was Abraham's knowledge of TULIP?

John Calvin had a theory. Just a theory. No doctrine. Many theologians have theories. John Calvin was an intelligent man, he was also a sinner. Those who look to Calvin for doctrine are much like the Mormons who look to Joseph Smith. John Calvin, Martin Luther, John Knox, Clement of Rome, Irenaeus and all the early Church Fathers and Apostolic Fathers had many theories and penned them. There is a reason why the Holy Spirit defined the Canon as it is. These men like us are fallible. They had some things right and some things incorrect. If your doctrine is supported soley upon the teachings of any of these man you are in trouble.

Our God is not the author of confusion. Calvinistic beliefs have zero to do with salvation.

 

[Grailhunter]

I guess I was put on the predestination list for worshiping the Puppet Master

 

[TEXBOW]

John Calvin is no more influential to me than any other philosopher of Christianity.

 

[Rudometkin]

Calvinism is the answer for those who wish to avoid ownership of sin. Jesus made me do it.

My belief basically lines up with Calvinism, and I lament to God over my sins. So I don't wish to avoid ownership of my sins. Though I wish to avoid sins.

Let's keep this going, though. Arminianism is the answer for those who wish to keep their sinful sense of power. The Arminian says.... "God created all things, but He didn't create evil. He didn't want evil to happen, but it happened anyway. Also, God is God, but He isn't 'totally' God over me. I decide my own future."

 

[TEXBOW]

My belief basically lines up with Calvinism, and I lament to God over my sins. So I don't wish to avoid ownership of my sins. Though I wish to avoid sins.

Let's keep this going, though. Arminianism is the answer for those who wish to keep their sinful sense of power. The Arminian says.... "God created all things, but He didn't create evil. He didn't want evil to happen, but it happened anyway. Also, God is God, but He isn't God over me. I decide my own future."

First let me point out that you're making a false assumption that one must be Calvinist or Arminianism. I'm neither. Calvinist like to define things to suit them, your statement validates that point. I have seen no person cling to Arminianism in this discussion like many have with Calvinism. The Arminianism tag is a deflection.

You may or may not wish to avoid responsibility for your sins but there are those who do use predestination before birth as an excuse. I have no idea what YOU do with Calvinism.

I believe that man does have the power to reject God, to seal his own fate, his soul to hell.

What I think you wish to not consider is that God did create all things but God does not cause all things. God knocks on the door but you do not have to open it. You tie create and cause together. God says himself that he hates sin. James 4:8 tells us that if WE draw nigh to God and he will draw nigh to US. The IF in this verse and many others means something Calvinist ignore.

We can turn away from God, so much so that he will harden our hearts. We can grieve the Holy Spirit (or does God cause you do that)?

God is certainly over me. God will judge, God will determine the fate of all mankind and every living creature. I do decide, I decide to accept Christ as my savior or I do not. There are two roads. One is narrow and the other wide. You decide which road you take.

Love is so important. If your pre-programed to love than love is meaningless. God is big enough to create you and give you free will. Some think God is not that powerful. That he had to make you his before you were born. God is so big that he is sovereign and gives us free will. 1 Timothy 2:4 God desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. Predeterminism is false.

There are many different degrees of Calvinism. Not all of course use their understanding as an excuse to sin or not have responsibility for a sinful lifestyle. Some are full on TULIP. Some are TULI, others TUL. We tend to paint with a broad brush sometimes. I think it's telling though when a man's philosophy becomes so critical in a person doctrine, the elevation of his stature to the level of scriptural authority. Not all Calvinist do this but some seem to elevate John to Sainthood.

The fall back statement used by Calvinist is always "it's misunderstood" I think among Calvinist there is much disagreement. They must misunderstand each other.

God invites us to the party but he does not force us to take the gift he offers to us. Jesus is the way. He knocks. If YOU open the door God gives us so much, we become the Elect, we are predestined for many things, our inheritance, our adoption, to be conformed, Justified, Glorified, Redemption, from salvation to rapture.

When do we receive the gift of the Holy Spirit? At birth? At salvation? What triggers a persons salvation? A choice.

 

[Rudometkin]

God did create all things but God does not cause all things. God knocks on the door but you do not have to open it. You tie create and cause together.

How can God create something without causing it? You believe He created evil but didn't cause evil. How can this be?

God says himself that he hates sin.

God says Himself that He hated Esau. He also says He created Esau for His own purpose. So He created what He hated. Therefore hating sin does not mean He didn't create it.

God is big enough to create you and give you free will. Some think God is not that powerful.

Free will in man is not a sign of God's power. It's a sign of self-glorifying will-worship.

Nobody believes God is more powerful than I do. They just believe the same or less.

God is all power. He is the only metaphysical power in existence. We have no power at all. Everything depends on God's power for existence. Nothing can happen within creation unless God wills and causes it. He sustains all things into existence.

You can't have it both ways. Either man has the power to exist and God is not Almighty, or God is Almighty and man has no power to exist. God is Almighty, so man does nothing apart from what God decides. God is God.

No matter what you say, if you believe you have the power to make your own choice apart from God's decision, you are inherently raising yourself and consequently lowering God in your worldview.

Don't take my word for it though, I suggest you re-read Scripture with the proper understanding that God is intelligently working the absolute entirety of His creation for His purpose. Anything else, and you have a god who doesn't have a grasp on himself.

 

[Grailhunter]

How can God create something without causing it? You believe He created evil but didn't cause evil. How can this be?



God says Himself that He hated Esau. He also says He created Esau for His own purpose. So He created what He hated. Therefore hating sin does not mean He didn't create it.



Free will in man is not a sign of God's power. It's a sign of self-glorifying will-worship.

Nobody believes God is more powerful than I do. They just believe the same or less.

God is all power. He is the only metaphysical power in existence. We have no power at all. Everything depends on God's power for existence. Nothing can happen within creation unless God wills and causes it. He sustains all things into existence.

You can't have it both ways. Either man has the power to exist and God is not Almighty, or God is Almighty and man has no power to exist. God is Almighty, so man does nothing apart from what God decides. God is God.

No matter what you say, if you believe you have the power to make your own choice apart from God's decision, you are inherently raising yourself and consequently lowering God in your worldview.

At least you are consistent.
Consistently wrong.

 

[Rudometkin]

At least you are consistent.
Consistently wrong.

By what power do you exist?

 

[TEXBOW]

How can God create something without causing it? You believe He created evil but didn't cause evil. How can this be?



God says Himself that He hated Esau. He also says He created Esau for His own purpose. So He created what He hated. Therefore hating sin does not mean He didn't create it.



Free will in man is not a sign of God's power. It's a sign of self-glorifying will-worship.

Nobody believes God is more powerful than I do. They just believe the same or less.

God is all power. He is the only metaphysical power in existence. We have no power at all. Everything depends on God's power for existence. Nothing can happen within creation unless God wills and causes it. He sustains all things into existence.

You can't have it both ways. Either man has the power to exist and God is not Almighty, or God is Almighty and man has no power to exist. God is Almighty, so man does nothing apart from what God decides. God is God.

No matter what you say, if you believe you have the power to make your own choice apart from God's decision, you are inherently raising yourself and consequently lowering God in your worldview.

Your assumptions and definitions are in error. You're speaking out of both sides of your mouth. Are you not saying that God is not big enough to create something without causing it to commit evil? You ask how can this be, because it is God we are talking about.

I think you're actually smart enough to understand the hate of Esau. God created you and every person on this earth and some of us sin and commit evil. He is big enough to create us but not cause us to commit evil with our gift of free will.

Your statement on self glorifying will-worship is another assumption that is false. Someone might worship free will but I've not met one. I think this might be your invention.

Yes we can have it both ways. Again a false definition. Man does exist and God is almighty. God created man. Your error is in creating false (statements, your facts) to make a point. Your foundation is false. It's not an either or issue, something you created.

Giving God the glory for our free will is not lowering God to a worldview. It is elevating God to the world. Jesus knocks and you can accept Christ, all are invited. You can remain in sin and end up in hell or answer the calling and have eternal life.

 

[Grailhunter]

By what power do you exist?

God did not create robots....
And your rhetoric, I have heard before....nearly word for word.....from cultists, attempting to recruit.

 

[Rudometkin]

God did not create robots....
And your rhetoric, I have heard before....nearly word for word.....from cultists, attempting to recruit.

Discombobulated.

Teach a young Christian.

By what power do you exist?

 

[TEXBOW]

Discombobulated.

Teach a young Christian.

By what power do you exist?

We all know who brought us into existence but do you know why?
I do not think we are to languish in our sharing in our understanding of scripture with those who do not agree. I feel you completely understand but closed your mind. You have planted your feet and heart in your view. No need on my part of continue with the discussion. I pray that we all understand God's word and one day we will all know the truth.

 

[PinSeeker]

YES.....AND I WILL OBEY! I WILL WORSHIP GOD BECAUSE I AM FORCED!

LOL! We Christians, Grailhunter, love because God first loved us, as John says in 1 John 4:19. Is John saying that love is somehow "forced" on us? Well no... But worship is the natural result of receiving God's love. Our chief desire becomes to love Him, and this love manifests itself in us in many different ways, including worshiping Him.

I have the free will to disagree with you.

Well of course you do.

...what purpose does it serve for God to have forced worship?....what does it mean to us to be forced to worship?

I have no idea; it's a misnomer, a complete contradiction in terms, and any good Calvinist would say the same thing.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Rudometkin]

You're speaking out of both sides of your mouth. Are you not saying that God is not big enough to create something without causing it to commit evil? You ask how can this be, because it is God we are talking about.

No, that is not what I am saying.

The idea is very simple.

You established God creates evil. ("God did create all things")

So how can you rationally deny He causes evil? What is the difference?

And why do you deny He causes evil? He boldly, unapologetically reveals His active, focused, intentional Sovereignty over all things.

Do you think it would be wrong for God to cause evil? If so, why? You already establish He creates it all.