John Calvin and Calvinism.

[Lifelong_sinner]

This is a pretty good summation of Calvinist beliefs.
The whole damnation of some individuals before the creation of anything.
The hopeless decree of of damnation of which there is no escape.
The creation of beings that are more or less robots....no free will. Playing out an eternal play.
A play that Christ went through the process of horrible torture and crucifixion as only part of that play. Just for show.
All of reality has no real purpose.
What good is love of God, if it is forced?
What good is faith in Christ, if it is forced?
What good is hope if it is already decided?
Can sin be evil if it is forced by God?
Is heaven a reward if you have a reservation?
People screaming in hell...being punished for something they were forced to do.

Of course all this is false. Ludacris in nature and evil in application.
But it gets worse. The overall evil of Calvinism is it supreme insult to God. They do not worship Satan but I am sure that Satan celebrates their religion, because it depicts God having the character of Satan.
A being that created all of mankind as biologicals robots. Denying them free-will and no hope. Like I say it sounds like a great sci-fi flick. It is a religion of horror that stands as the worst insult to God and a trophy on Satan's shelf.
Taking innocent people that were looking for a relationship with God but instead convincing them that there is no relationship with God, just a puppet master that has enslaved all humanity.
Absolutely despicable!

i think you have twisted some doctrines a bit.
Jesus’ death was an absolute necessity. If He hadn’t died, there wouldn’t have been atonement for us. If God is just, and we know He is, without an atonement for us, how could He have saved anyone? God has to be just above all else. Otherwise, He wouldn’t be holy and justice would never be served.

romans 9:20 tells us that we dont get to question what God has planned for us, especially hell. The thought that we are owed Heaven is just sinful pride. Everyone’s name is already written down in the book of life that will be saved. The thought that Jesus is up in Heaven right now, still writing down people’s names is just silly. And we are not robots. But because of our consistently wicked hearts, we cant do anything good. A great example is a firefighter who runs into a building to save a little boy. Did he do a good deed? Depends on why he did it. Most would call him a hero, but God would see his true feelings and know if it was or not.
Calvinism is Biblical. How do we know? Because it highlights God’s way of thinking, not mans.

 

[Grailhunter]

i think you have twisted some doctrines a bit.
Jesus’ death was an absolute necessity. If He hadn’t died, there wouldn’t have been atonement for us. If God is just, and we know He is, without an atonement for us, how could He have saved anyone? God has to be just above all else. Otherwise, He wouldn’t be holy and justice would never be served.

romans 9:20 tells us that we dont get to question what God has planned for us, especially hell. The thought that we are owed Heaven is just sinful pride. Everyone’s name is already written down in the book of life that will be saved. The thought that Jesus is up in Heaven right now, still writing down people’s names is just silly. And we are not robots. But because of our consistently wicked hearts, we cant do anything good. A great example is a firefighter who runs into a building to save a little boy. Did he do a good deed? Depends on why he did it. Most would call him a hero, but God would see his true feelings and know if it was or not.
Calvinism is Biblical. How do we know? Because it highlights God’s way of thinking, not mans.

I understand the bible....Calvinist twists the meaning of atonement. They twist the saving grace of Christ. I can go on an on about the twists....they should call their religion the Twist. But the bottom line is they depict God as Satan. Beyond guaranteeing Satan a quote by damning people from the beginning, could a deity be more hateful? It all smacks of Satan.

 

[Lifelong_sinner]

I understand the bible....Calvinist twists the meaning of atonement. They twist the saving grace of Christ. I can go on an on about the twists....they should call their religion the Twist. But the bottom line is they depict God as Satan. Beyond guaranteeing Satan a quote by damning people from the beginning, could a deity be more hateful? It all smacks of Satan.

so you think God doesnt know who will be saved till they die?

 

[Grailhunter]

so you think God doesnt know who will be saved till they die?

It is a deep topic because we do not know the mind's eye of God, as in how the future is perceived by Him. If you take all the evidence in the Bible, some questions come to light.

But just to keep it simple, lets say the future is crystal clear to Him.
But in relation to this topic it means very little.
And there is a really a good reason for that.

 

[Lifelong_sinner]

It is a deep topic because we do not know the mind's eye of God, as in how the future is perceived by Him. If you take all the evidence in the Bible, some questions come to light.

But just to keep it simple, lets say the future is crystal clear to Him.
But in relation to this topic it means very little.
And there is a really a good reason for that.

wow. If you dont think God knows how everything will turn out already, then you cant possibly understand calvinism, which could explain why you dont like it. And in the case of calvinism, God knowing everything already has everything to do with explaining calvinism. How else could He have known whose names would be in the book of life before the creation of the universe?

 

[Grailhunter]

If you dont think God knows how everything will turn out already, then you cant possibly understand calvinism

And see this what you all do. You twist the Bible and twist what people say. Is it a matter of Calvinist instruction?
Who knows the mind of God?
I did not say He did not know the future. I said it means very little in regard to this topic.
Knowing what is going to happen in the future.....and controlling the future is two different things.

 

[Renniks]

i think you have twisted some doctrines a bit.
Jesus’ death was an absolute necessity. If He hadn’t died, there wouldn’t have been atonement for us. If God is just, and we know He is, without an atonement for us, how could He have saved anyone? God has to be just above all else. Otherwise, He wouldn’t be holy and justice would never be served.

romans 9:20 tells us that we dont get to question what God has planned for us, especially hell. The thought that we are owed Heaven is just sinful pride. Everyone’s name is already written down in the book of life that will be saved. The thought that Jesus is up in Heaven right now, still writing down people’s names is just silly. And we are not robots. But because of our consistently wicked hearts, we cant do anything good. A great example is a firefighter who runs into a building to save a little boy. Did he do a good deed? Depends on why he did it. Most would call him a hero, but God would see his true feelings and know if it was or not.
Calvinism is Biblical. How do we know? Because it highlights God’s way of thinking, not mans.

And in the verse you quote we are told that we can, in fact, talk back to God. But wait, I thought God was doing everything? That's what Calvinism teaches, that grace is irresistibly applied to some while others are irresistibly damned. The same verses Calvinists quote refute thier doctrine.

 

[PinSeeker]

I understand the bible...

Well, if so, great, but...

Calvinist twists the meaning of atonement. They twist the saving grace of Christ.

It would be very interesting to hear why you think this is so.

I can go on an on about the twists...they should call their religion the Twist.

LOL! Okay, please. I'm very willing to give it a fair hearing.

But the bottom line is they depict God as Satan.

Again, how so? I mean, that's the unforgiveable sin, basically. And Calvinists (and others) believe that God keeps us from doing that. But how so?

Beyond guaranteeing Satan a quote by damning people from the beginning...

I really don't even understand what this means. "Guaranteeing Satan a quote"... that makes no sense. And damning people from the beginning is a terrible misunderstanding of the doctrine of Original Sin and Calvin's refutation of Jacobus Arminius's first point.

...could a deity be more hateful? It all smacks of Satan.

Yeah, like I said, a terrible misunderstanding of John Calvin's writings and Calvinistic soteriology. That's the great irony in all this, is that people who think along the same lines about Calvinism as you apparently do misunderstand Calvinists altogether ~ and thus at least inadvertently twist it terribly ~ at least on this particular subject.

Knowing what is going to happen in the future.....and controlling the future is two different things.

Well I agree in the sense that you mean that, but we should talk about what it really means for God to know us ~ to have foreknown (Romans 8:29) those who are in Christ, and (by implication) not to have foreknown those who are not in Christ.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Lifelong_sinner]

And in the verse you quote we are told that we can, in fact, talk back to God. But wait, I thought God was doing everything? That's what Calvinism teaches, that grace is irresistibly applied to some while others are irresistibly damned. The same verses Calvinists quote refute thier doctrine.

are you serious??????? Romans 9:20 tells us we can talk back to God?? Did you even read it?? Romans 9:20 tells you that you cannot talk back to God, or question His methods. There are Soooo many on this forum that have never read romans, or else they cannot understand scripture…

 

[Renniks]

are you serious??????? Romans 9:20 tells us we can talk back to God?? Did you even read it?? Romans 9:20 tells you that you cannot talk back to God, or question His methods. There are Soooo many on this forum that have never read romans, or else they cannot understand scripture…

Why would we have to be told not to talk back to God? Didn't you read the verse you posted?
"Who are you to talk back to God?"
The truth is that everyone talks back to God. That's where sin comes from. Yes, God has the right to do as he wills. That doesn't mean he always gets what he wants. Israel rebelled against him and God said he did everything necessary for them to return. Calvinism teaches no one can resist God's will. It's not a biblical theology.

 

[Lifelong_sinner]

Why would we have to be told not to talk back to God? Didn't you read the verse you posted?
"Who are you to talk back to God?"
The truth is that everyone talks back to God. That's where sin comes from. Yes, God has the right to do as he wills. That doesn't mean he always gets what he wants. Israel rebelled against him and God said he did everything necessary for them to return. Calvinism teaches no one can resist God's will. It's not a biblical theology.

you talk back to God?????
Also, He doesnt always get what He wants???

dude, seriously, God gets any and everything He wants. You think we can change His plans?? No wonder you dont like calvinism. Next thing you’ll be saying is that WE can choose to believe in God or not.

 

[Grailhunter]

Well, if so, great, but...


It would be very interesting to hear why you think this is so.


LOL! Okay, please. I'm very willing to give it a fair hearing.


Again, how so? I mean, that's the unforgiveable sin, basically. And Calvinists (and others) believe that God keeps us from doing that. But how so?


I really don't even understand what this means. "Guaranteeing Satan a quote"... that makes no sense. And damning people from the beginning is a terrible misunderstanding of the doctrine of Original Sin and Calvin's refutation of Jacobus Arminius's first point.


Yeah, like I said, a terrible misunderstanding of John Calvin's writings and Calvinistic soteriology. That's the great irony in all this, is that people who think along the same lines about Calvinism as you apparently do misunderstand Calvinists altogether ~ and thus at least inadvertently twist it terribly ~ at least on this particular subject.


Well I agree in the sense that you mean that, but we should talk about what it really means for God to know us ~ to have foreknown (Romans 8:29) those who are in Christ, and (by implication) not to have foreknown those who are not in Christ.

Grace and peace to you.

Of course this topic has been covered in several threads so it just a reiteration of the facts.


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Calvinist twists the meaning of atonement. They twist the saving grace of Christ.
It would be very interesting to hear why you think this is so.
↑
I can go on an on about the twists...they should call their religion the Twist.
LOL! Okay, please. I'm very willing to give it a fair hearing.

Calvinism has come up with their own man-made terms that do not appear in the Bible. This is a red flag for false teachings. It all revolves around the belief that God is a puppet master and so whatever people do both good and bad is the will of God. Sin is the transgression against the will of God....so according to Calvinism people are forced to do the will of God and so sin would not exist...according to Calvinism people do bad things under the control of God. And then they believe God punishes them for eternity for being under the control of God.

But the bottom line is they depict God as Satan.
Again, how so? I mean, that's the unforgiveable sin, basically. And Calvinists (and others) believe that God keeps us from doing that. But how so?
According to Calvinism people do nothing by their own free-will. All actions predestined by God....so then whatever sin occurs is through the will of God. As the old saying goes "You cannot have your cake and eat too." If God forces people to sin through predestination....no sin can be attributed to man. Again sin is a transgression against God, since all actions are in accordance with the will of God....no transgressions.....only the will of God.

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Beyond guaranteeing Satan a quote by damning people from the beginning...
I really don't even understand what this means. "Guaranteeing Satan a quote"... that makes no sense.

I agree it makes no sense. Calvinism as a whole make no sense and it is false. If God determined who would be damned before the creation of things....Satan has been guaranteed those destined to hell....no escape.

And damning people from the beginning is a terrible misunderstanding of the doctrine of Original Sin and Calvin's refutation of Jacobus Arminius's first point.
Again, Original Sin is not a biblical term. Predestination is a consistent teaching of Calvinism. If you have a different version of Calvinism where people have free-will and can make their own choices, let me know.
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...could a deity be more hateful? It all smacks of Satan.
Yeah, like I said, a terrible misunderstanding of John Calvin's writings and Calvinistic soteriology. That's the great irony in all this, is that people who think along the same lines about Calvinism as you apparently do misunderstand Calvinists altogether ~ and thus at least inadvertently twist it terribly ~ at least on this particular subject.

The fact that Calvinists do not believe that people have free-will is a well established fact. One of the primary points of their religion and the beliefs behind their non bibleical slogans. The fact that they believe that God determined who will be damned before creation of all things is another well established fact. Their doctrine is not only that God knows how all things will turn out, but that He controls it all. And as I said if you have a different version of Calvinist beliefs, have at it. Lets hear it.
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Knowing what is going to happen in the future.....and controlling the future is two different things.
Well I agree in the sense that you mean that, but we should talk about what it really means for God to know us ~ to have foreknown (Romans 8:29) those who are in Christ, and (by implication) not to have foreknown those who are not in Christ.

Again, foreknown is not predestination. So God knows the future, so there is no reason to lock it down, he knows how it all turns out. And He knows the choices people made to make it so. That is the issue at hand...choice....free-will. Do people sin by their own choice and free-will, or are they predestined to sin....in accordance with God's power to predestine. In other words sin driven by God's will.

The fact that God is Almighty is true. He does have the power to predestine, the question is how often and to what extent does He use that power. The storyline of the Bible mostly shows God working with people to accomplish His will. He assigned His champions in the Old Testament. God did not kill the Pagans in the promise land He sent people to serve the eviction notice. How many battles in the Old Testament occurred by the direction of God? Same thing goes for the prophets, He worked with the prophets to spread His Word. In the New Testament Christ worked with and lived with the Apostles.

So predestination exist, but it is not God controlling people all the time
God has the power to kill...but He does not kill everyone.
God has the power to make it rain....but it does not rain all the time.
God has the power to bless....but He does not bless everyone
God has the power to heal....but He does not heal everyone.

The rest I explained in post 598

 

[Ronald Nolette]

You just contradicted yourself again!

We sin because by nature we are sinners?
Wrong!
Your god made us sin because we have no freewill.
We cannot choose to do anything.
God created us to commit sin by His choice not ours!

Dont you understand the only way I can be guilty of sin is if I can choose to sin by my freewill?

No one chose to be born totally depraved unable to do good.
God chose that not us.
He created some for destruction and some for eternal life for His good pleasure remember?

Once again calvinism is a contradicting mess,

You err in all this because of your spiritual myopia and your lack of understanding scripture.

We sin because we inherit a sin nature. That was the warning of God to Adam.

God never makes us sin- we sin because by nature we are sinners. I cannot apologize for what Scripture teaches. we have no freewill thanks ot Adam, not God. god restores free will to those whom He elects.

In one sense you are correct in that God chose to let us sin. He is omnipotent and could have made each person with the ability to not sin, but He chose not to- for His purposes and His glory.

As for your guilt or innocence- who are you to contradict God! When you quit trying to mix human reasoning in with the Word of God and accept it as written, you won't see it as a mess, but God working all things out according to teh counsel of His own will and not to your understanding or permission.

He created some for destruction and some for eternal life for His good pleasure remember?

Wrong He created Adam and Eve and then set in motion the laws that govern us! He created all for eternal life knowing that man would fail no matter how many times he tried!

We are all born lost! We are all born fitted for destruction. If God did not intervene and choose to save some- none would be saved!

Romans 9:14-24
King James Version

14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.

15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.

18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?


See verse 24? this passage doies not pertain to just Israel but all mankind!

And just to make your philosophical reasoning twist some more. The verb fitted in verse 23? It is in the perfect passive particle.

Perfect= action viewed as done in teh past and needs not repeating
passive= the recipient is the recipient of the action
participle+ giving the verb (as it is in the perfect) the "ed' ending.

So if you are oging to accept Gods Word as written and inspired by God- yes those for destruction were made fit for destruction and those for glory were selected out ahead of time!

 

[Ronald Nolette]

you talk back to God?????
Also, He doesnt always get what He wants???

dude, seriously, God gets any and everything He wants. You think we can change His plans?? No wonder you dont like calvinism. Next thing you’ll be saying is that WE can choose to believe in God or not.

Well I would say god doesn't always gets what He wants (as in desire) but He always gets what He wills.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

I didn't say he did. He used Israel's rebellion to spread the gospel, which is what I said.
Romans 9 tells us God's plan didn't fail because his own people rejected him.
Think about that a little though. If Israel is chosen how can they reject God? Israel were the elect! Obviously this election bit isn't irresistible. It's something we are through faith. Whoever accepts Jesus by faith becomes part of the elect.

Israel is still chosen, though as a nation are temporarily set aside for the calling out of the Gentiles. But Paul made it clear that God has not cast away Israel. He even said in both testaments that in every generation only a remnant will be saved.

But as Paul wrote in Romans 11, once the full number of gentiles comes in then ALL of Israel will be saved. that is also the promise in Jer. 31, , Ez. 20, and Zech 12

 

[Ronald Nolette]

This is what it takes to be a calvinist! You must ignore the ability to reason, with the reasoning God gave you!!!



Only one way to be a calvinist.
You must abandon logic and embrace insanity.

Well as God wrote about human logic:

Proverbs 14:12
There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.

Proverbs 3:5-6
King James Version

5 Trust in the Lord with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.

6 In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.

Isaiah 55:9
For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

1 Corinthians 1:23-25
King James Version

23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;

1 Corinthians 2:14
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they


24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.

25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.

1 Corinthians 3:19
For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness.

These are some of Gods thoughts on human logic!!!!!!!!

 

[Grailhunter]

We sin because we inherit a sin nature.

The doctrine of predestination makes all that irrelevant. All sins and actions of man are predestined by God. There in no inherit anything....only the will of God.

God never makes us sin- we sin because by nature we are sinners.

By nature! Again back to choice. According to Calvinism we do not have a choice. Predestined to sin, because those that are chosen and those that are damned, occurred before the creation of things.

In one sense you are correct in that God chose to let us sin.

Again wrong! This suggests choice. Calvinist do not believe in free-will or choice.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Think about that a little though. If Israel is chosen how can they reject God? Israel were the elect! Obviously this election bit isn't irresistible. It's something we are through faith. Whoever accepts Jesus by faith becomes part of the elect.

If God says it and He did then they are the elect. I cannot cut and paste all teh Scriptures that show God calling him the elect setting them aside and rejoining Himself to them.

But as to your last sentence here- you have it backwards! The elect accept Jesus by faith. The unelect do not! I was saved by decree of God before He created the universe- that is my position! I got saved in time , that is my experience. Teh fact that I would be saved intime is moot, God made sure it would happen. Not because of any "freewill" on my part, but because of His decree!

 

[Grailhunter]

If God says it and He did then they are the elect. I cannot cut and paste all teh Scriptures that show God calling him the elect setting them aside and rejoining Himself to them.

I have no problem with the term elect....but it applies to all Christians.

The elect accept Jesus by faith.

This implies choice and free-will

The unelect do not!

Again this implies choice and free-will.

Teh fact that I would be saved intime is moot, God made sure it would happen. Not because of any "freewill" on my part, but because of His decree!

Exactly Calvinist. You believe you are a puppet of the great puppet master.

 

[Titus]

Well as God wrote about human logic:

Proverbs 14:12
There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.

Proverbs 3:5-6
King James Version

5 Trust in the Lord with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.

6 In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.

Isaiah 55:9
For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

1 Corinthians 1:23-25
King James Version

23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;

1 Corinthians 2:14
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they


24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.

25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.

1 Corinthians 3:19
For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness.

These are some of Gods thoughts on human logic!!!!!!!!

Human logic?
You do understand that these verses are referring to those who do not reason Gods word?
They are reasoning against Gods word!

Do you actually think, Gods word teaches us not to reason when studying the scriptures?

I know calvinist's refuse to use logic when they read the scriptures.

2Timothy 2:15
Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

How would you interpret this verse?
First a calvinist thinks all understanding is given directly by the Holy Spirit in a miraculous knowledge.
Some calvinist needs to tell Timothy there is no point in studying, working with effort to rightly divide Gods word! Why that would require logical reasoning! Calvinist cannot allow that!

Timothy says to study the scriptures requires work!
Work requires effort, studying requires comprehensive! Comprehension requires logical reasoning

This verse makes no sense if calvinism is true.
Why do we need to work to rightly divide the word?
If calvinism is true, the elect miraculously know what is being taught without study!

Timothy teaches we must rightly divide the word of God.
This means there is a wrong way to divide the scriptures.
That wrong way is to interpret scriptures without using logic.
To come to conclusions that make no logical sense!
Like for instance, believing God has created some to be totally depraved wicked reprobates that cannot repent and turn to God. Yet God supposedly blames them for not repenting of their sins!
Absolute hog wash! Makes God out to be irrational.
Fact: John Calvin was irrational. He wrongly divided Gods word.

To be a follower of John Calvin one must throw away logic and embrace insanity