My comment was that I don't understand how anyone could worship this reformed God.
So what do I mean by that:
The God that comes through to me and other non-reformed persons is a God that loves His creation (us),
that has mercy and this is why He made a plan of escape for those who choose to serve Him and not the enemy,
and a God that is just in all His dealings with us.
Justice means giving to each person what that person deserves.
Simply put, a God that chooses, unconditionally, whom He wishes to save cannot be this God.
I believe Calvinism changes the nature of God into a God that is not recognizable.
My comment was that verses are taken out of context and are labeled DESCRIPTIVE (instead of prescriptive)...I posted John 3:16
God so loved the world: Some say He does not love the world. The verse clearly states He does.
And, yes, WHO are the beneficiaries? Isn't it WHOSOEVER believes? Isn't this PRESCRIPTIVE?
Didn't Jesus die to save those that would believe in Him?
How could the WHOSOEVER be only those that believe in Jesus because God chose them to?
Doesn't verse 20 mean anything to you...
John 3:20-21
20“For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed.
21“But he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God.”
It's speaking about those that do good.
And those that do evil.
It says they either do or do not come to the light...
Those that come to the light are following God.
(one reply and that'll be it -- I'm not pounding the horse to death)
Yes, I use the NASB. 40 years worth.
I'm trying to use the NLB but I'm getting resistance...
I think we could skip this...we both know how we understand it.
Just want to say that it is through God's mercy that He saves anyone...
and that He lets us KNOW HOW we can be saved.
I think this is a big difference between our understanding of the N.T. (and God).
And it does not depend on US,,,what we DO, or on our will....but on HIS MERCY to be able to forgive us.
LOL, no more football for me. It's soccer here and I don't really care for it.
I use the analogy of a football team too. I guess I should state it.
God is sovereign and has a big plan we don't really know about (or maybe not) but, in the end, God will have everything end just the way He wants it to. We cannot change God's plan. But He gave us free will (different topic)...so how to reconcile the two?
It's like a football game.
Every player plays the best he can and each play is designed beforehand and so to win that play and score.
Each player is free to do as he so chooses...
But God puts all the plays together so that in the end, the team HE wants to win, will win.
I thought this was a good analogy and haven't ever thought of a better one.
Discussing Romans 9, 10 and 11 here.
But can we ignore the forest in favor of the trees!
Paul is discussing in chapter 9 how God choses Israel to show His plan and to carry it forward.
It's speaking of the nation...the nation was elected.
But Jesus came as the Messiah and He was not accepted as such.
But God has to carry forward His plan anyway.
Paul is speaking to those that were complaining that the Gentiles were not part of the promise. (to Abraham).
This is when Paul states that God has not failed. verse 6
The Jews are not children just because they were born of Abraham...but they are descendants through Isaac.
He was the child of promise...not Ishmael...he was of the flesh.
It's God that chooses the child of promise.
And so with Esau and Jacob.
God called Jacob for His own purposes.
And so Esau would serve Jacob...and, in fact, this is how it turned out.
If you check verse 17 God chose Pharoah for the PURPOSE of displaying His power.
IOW,,, God chooses for PURPOSE and not for salvation.
Then Paul goes on to say how the O.T. prophesied that the Gentiles would also be included...
(as in the Davidic Covenant - AND the Abrahamic Covenant also).
I really don't feel qualified to have this discussion, but this chapter is the only one, IMO, that speaks as though God did choose for salvation...but really it's for purpose.
By "which persons are the WHO" I wasn't contradicting myself...I was saying that God let's us know HOW to be saved and THOSE PERSONS that choose to be so will be the WHO.
The rest is covered above.
The HOW instead the the WHO is very important to how scripture is written and how I understand it.