@Rudometkin My wife and I have been reading John 17 and it's so clear that just as Father and Son are united in their purpose, so also those who are in Christ are securely united with Him for time and eternity.
John Calvin and Calvinism.
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Calvinism has an excellent comprehension of what GRACE means, and the other systematic philosophies do not understand GRACE properly at all. We are only saved by His grace.
People are born again of the Spirit as a first step in their salvation, otherwise they can not see, perceive the kingdom of God
People are born again according to the will of God, not the will of a man
All those not born again have ENMITY against God and Christ
All people not born again resist the Holy Spirit.
Christ chooses as an exercise of HIS WILL who knows God and Christ
The reason God saves some by His grace is His great love He has for them only and not the others
The reason we love God is because He loved us first and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins, ours being only the foreknown elect.
We are elect according to foreknowledge
Only 'the frozen chosen', will believe, all the rest are not chosen for salvation, God knew His elect from before time began as His people, so that number can not be modified, added or subtracted from, it is frozen in time.
Honestly the depravity of men and their spiritual condition of loving SATAN and the lusts of the flesh show they can not do the right thing with God and be obedient to God's command to repent and believe in Christ. If God did not predestine people, no one would follow Christ.
When you say differently, then it is not grace that saves but a work of your flesh, your will and not the work of God.
There us overwhelming scriptural proof for all the above. People generally presume way to much about their own ability to believe.
When God predestines people to believe, it makes the promise sure to all the seed. And the elect must be saved.
Romans 4:16
Therefore it is of faith that it might be according to grace, so that the promise might be sure to all the seed, not only to those who are of the law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all
2 Timothy 2:10
Therefore I endure all things for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.
the elect must and will be saved and only the foreknown elect. The elect being born in a fallen condition have to go through the salvation experience. They are born elect, not born saved.
People are born again of the Spirit as a first step in their salvation, otherwise they can not see, perceive the kingdom of God
People are born again according to the will of God, not the will of a man
All those not born again have ENMITY against God and Christ
All people not born again resist the Holy Spirit.
Christ chooses as an exercise of HIS WILL who knows God and Christ
The reason God saves some by His grace is His great love He has for them only and not the others
The reason we love God is because He loved us first and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins, ours being only the foreknown elect.
We are elect according to foreknowledge
Only 'the frozen chosen', will believe, all the rest are not chosen for salvation, God knew His elect from before time began as His people, so that number can not be modified, added or subtracted from, it is frozen in time.
Honestly the depravity of men and their spiritual condition of loving SATAN and the lusts of the flesh show they can not do the right thing with God and be obedient to God's command to repent and believe in Christ. If God did not predestine people, no one would follow Christ.
When you say differently, then it is not grace that saves but a work of your flesh, your will and not the work of God.
There us overwhelming scriptural proof for all the above. People generally presume way to much about their own ability to believe.
When God predestines people to believe, it makes the promise sure to all the seed. And the elect must be saved.
Romans 4:16
Therefore it is of faith that it might be according to grace, so that the promise might be sure to all the seed, not only to those who are of the law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all
2 Timothy 2:10
Therefore I endure all things for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.
the elect must and will be saved and only the foreknown elect. The elect being born in a fallen condition have to go through the salvation experience. They are born elect, not born saved.
Acts 15:11
But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved in the same manner as they.”
Since people believe through GRACE and are saved through Grace, the unsaved do not have that Grace, or they would be saved.
Acts 18:27
And when he desired to cross to Achaia, the brethren wrote, exhorting the disciples to receive him; and when he arrived, he greatly helped those who had believed through grace;
The gospel testifies to the Grace of God, but unless they are saved, they have not been given Grace as His gift to believe in Christ.
God's Grace for salvation is only for the elect, no one else. Your not in charge of determine who gets to believe by Grace.
Acts 20:24
But none of these things move me; nor do I count my life dear to myself, so that I may finish my race with joy, and the ministry which I received from the Lord Jesus, to testify to the gospel of the grace of God.
I get it that the unspiritual minded think you earn God's grace by your actions as it has become understood today as a work of the flesh. That thinking is according to the ways of the world, and not God's ways. But many in the church today are contaminated and infected with worldly ways and doings. I can only think this is part of the coming Great Apostasy, and the warning that in the last days some will depart from the faith and give heed to doctrines of demons. And the false beliefs in churches and their false teachers will grow and get worse and worse up until the end.
1 Timothy 4:1
The Great Apostasy
Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons,
2 Thessalonians 2
New King James Version
The Great Apostasy
1 Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.
Maybe you know some of the people I am talking about. Many of them are locked into their false theologies.
But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved in the same manner as they.”
Since people believe through GRACE and are saved through Grace, the unsaved do not have that Grace, or they would be saved.
Acts 18:27
And when he desired to cross to Achaia, the brethren wrote, exhorting the disciples to receive him; and when he arrived, he greatly helped those who had believed through grace;
The gospel testifies to the Grace of God, but unless they are saved, they have not been given Grace as His gift to believe in Christ.
God's Grace for salvation is only for the elect, no one else. Your not in charge of determine who gets to believe by Grace.
Acts 20:24
But none of these things move me; nor do I count my life dear to myself, so that I may finish my race with joy, and the ministry which I received from the Lord Jesus, to testify to the gospel of the grace of God.
I get it that the unspiritual minded think you earn God's grace by your actions as it has become understood today as a work of the flesh. That thinking is according to the ways of the world, and not God's ways. But many in the church today are contaminated and infected with worldly ways and doings. I can only think this is part of the coming Great Apostasy, and the warning that in the last days some will depart from the faith and give heed to doctrines of demons. And the false beliefs in churches and their false teachers will grow and get worse and worse up until the end.
1 Timothy 4:1
The Great Apostasy
Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons,
2 Thessalonians 2
New King James Version
The Great Apostasy
1 Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.
Maybe you know some of the people I am talking about. Many of them are locked into their false theologies.
Except that it CONVENIENTLY FORGETS that the grace of God that bringeth salvation has appeared to ALL MEN. The Holy Spirit through Paul made sure that the error of the Calvinists would be exposed in just that one verse in Titus 2:11: For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ.
Of course the deluded Calvinists (including John Calvin) will claim that "all men" does not really mean "all men" just like "the world" does not really mean "the world" in John 3:16,17! Which means that they would rather make God a liar than admit that it was Calvin who was the liar.
Your understanding though is in conflict with Acts 18:27 and many other scriptures.
You either acknowledge that and stop despising the scriptures or just continue to speak against the truth.
Your one of those locked into their theology people.
As am I, but I have proven the correct view and you have nothing but insults.
Yes the gospel of Grace of Christ has gone out to the whole world, but it is by Grace you are saved. those are 2 different things. Just the gospel by itself does not save, it is like book information free to all people, anyone with a bible can read about the gospel. Grace is what saves a person. that is a work of God, an action. Your hatred of the truth has clouded your mind. And you seem to hate calvinists.
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All has indeed been qualified, as the scriptures are very clear that Jesus was referring to Hi sown sheep, the ones that can amd will hear His voice!
LOL! Enoch. Come on, my friend. Do you not acknowledge a big difference between the following two things?
1. The grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men (Titus 2:11; emphasis added)
2. God's mercy and compassion (His saving grace) has only been given to His elect; "...in order that God’s purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls... Will what is molded say to its molder, 'Why have you made me like this?' Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use?" (Romans 9)
NOTE: Paul states this same thing in Romans 1, writing of unbelievers, "For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse." And both Titus 2:11 and this passage from Romans 1 come directly from Psalm 98, where David sings, "The LORD has made known his salvation; He has revealed His righteousness in the sight of the nations... All the ends of the earth have seen the salvation of our God."
2. God's mercy and compassion (His saving grace) has only been given to His elect; "...in order that God’s purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls... Will what is molded say to its molder, 'Why have you made me like this?' Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use?" (Romans 9)
Both of these statements are from Paul (in Titus and Romans), and both are absolutely true. There's a dichotomy here regarding God's salvation appearing to men and its being effected in men that you are just not seeing, for whatever reason, but whatever the reason, it should not be missed. The former is general to all, and the latter is specific to some.
Grace and peace to you.
IF Jesus indeed died in the stead and place of all lost sinners, either they are in hell still without any reason for being there, or else God cannot save those Jesus purchased back by his own blood and death!
Yes, and both of those things would be absolutely ridiculous ideas. Grace and peace to you.
There is a distinction between the scope of the Gospel message going out 'to every creature' (Mark 16.15) and the need for the Spirit to work effectually to those who believe; otherwise they will remain 'dead in trespasses and sins' (Ephesians 2).
I was once a free will Baptist, so do know the logic and reasoning used to try to refute Calvinism, but the basic problems are a refusal to accept what happened to us in the Fall, and how really spiritual dead we now all were!
The biggest problem with Calvinist is their theology causing a lack of trust/faith in them.
If Calvin be correct, then God created some for reprobation.
Those who are ordained of God to be damned to hell, may believe they are elected.
Now, how can we trust possible reprobates, to teach us biblical truth?
We cannot know who is really chosen of God.
Could a reprobate be trusted when they are totally depraved and wicked?
If they are deceived into believing they are elected.
Then it is likely that they are teaching the doctrines of demons to those who God also wants to be deceived.
Thus, it is possible that local churches are founded by men who are not Gods people but deceived reprobates that preach a perverted gospel from satan.
If Calvin be correct, then God created some for reprobation.
Those who are ordained of God to be damned to hell, may believe they are elected.
Now, how can we trust possible reprobates, to teach us biblical truth?
We cannot know who is really chosen of God.
Could a reprobate be trusted when they are totally depraved and wicked?
If they are deceived into believing they are elected.
Then it is likely that they are teaching the doctrines of demons to those who God also wants to be deceived.
Thus, it is possible that local churches are founded by men who are not Gods people but deceived reprobates that preach a perverted gospel from satan.
Well, I'm a Calvinist (and I know others...
), but my theology helps me to have a greater trust/faith in God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit than I ever would have thought possible. Well, it's really because Paul said, in Romans 9... or asked, really, rhetorically:
"Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? What if God, desiring to show His wrath and to make known His power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of His glory for vessels of mercy, which He has prepared beforehand for glory ~ even us whom He has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?"
I'm not sure how that could be misunderstood, but yet it is. I guess it's just obstinance, or some like thing.
Very true. But we can be assured ourselves; that's what God-given faith is: "Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen." (Hebrews 11:1)
Yes, that is very possible.
Grace and peace to you.
Well, I'm a Calvinist (and I know others...
Well, it's really because Paul said, in Romans 9... or asked, really, rhetorically:
"Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? What if God, desiring to show His wrath and to make known His power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of His glory for vessels of mercy, which He has prepared beforehand for glory ~ even us whom He has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?"
I'm not sure how that could be misunderstood, but yet it is. I guess it's just obstinance, or some like thing.
Very true. But we can be assured ourselves; that's what God-given faith is: "Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen." (Hebrews 11:1)
Yes, that is very possible.
Grace and peace to you.
Grace and peace to me?
Sir, I have asked you twice to stop sending me messages. You are about as far from gracious as one can be.
How can you know you have not been chosen by God to be deceived into believing you understand belief?
God may hate you. He may have given you strong delusion into believing a lie.
You will never really know until you face God in judgement.
Yes! The grace of God and the Prince of Peace be with you. (not the Force)
Or, in the words of God and then Aaron, "the LORD bless you and keep you; the LORD make His face to shine upon you and be gracious to you; the LORD lift up His countenance upon you and give you peace."Okay, well, I must have missed it. But if you do want me to stop sending you messages, then why do you keep asking me questions? I mean, you do it again in this very post (below).
And how have I been ungracious to you? I think I've been very patient through all of this exchange. You were the one who accused me of "denying Jesus," which is certainly not the case. The gracious thing to do would have been to ask me if that was what I was doing and give me a chance to respond. But, well, water under the bridge...
If God were to do that, it would make him a sinner, and thus not God. Right?
As I said, I can know concerning myself. Faith is the gift of God, and it is (as defined by God Himself through the writer of Hebrews), the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen (Hebrews 11:1). So for me to think I can't know ~ again concerning myself ~ would be tantamount to me saying the assurance of God is worthless, among other things, which is surely not the case.
But yeah, I'm not sure what has upset your apple cart, so to speak. Again, grace and peace to you in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Oh yes, I am seeing it all right. Not only has the grace of God which brings salvation appeared to all men, but -- AS A MATTER OF FACT -- Christ has offered this grace to all men. So now note these words of the Lord Jesus Christ very carefully: And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
Did you get the significance of the words of Christ?
Does "whosoever" mean anyone and everyone regardless? Absolutely
Does "the world" mean the whole human race? Absolutely
Was every Israelite free to look on the Brazen Serpent and be saved? Absolutely
So does this not mean that Calvinists have made God a liar? Absolutely
So now are you going to go to God and confess your sin of making God a liar while making Calvin a little god? And then repent by shedding yourself of your false beliefs?
Read was is actually written and don't read INTO it what is not there. "ALL MEN" means all men. No ifs, ands, and buts.
Absolutely not. So let's look at Acts 27,28 and see exactly what it says and what it means:
And when he [Apollos] was disposed to pass into Achaia, the brethren wrote, exhorting the disciples to receive him: who, when he was come, helped them much which had believed through grace: For he mightily convinced the Jews, and that publickly, shewing by the scriptures that Jesus was Christ.
How did the believers believe? "Through grace"
How was this grace manifested to them? Through the Gospel.
Was this Gospel presented through the OT Scripture? Yes
Did the Gospel assert that Jesus of Nazareth was indeed the Christ (or the Messiah) and that those who believe on Him would receive eternal life? Yes
Does this passage contradict in any way the fact that the grace of God is offered to all men? Absolutely not.
The grace of God is presented and offered to all men through the preaching of the Gospel. Therefore Jesus commanded the apostles (and consequently the Church) to preach the Gospel "in all the world" and "to every creature". That in itself is sufficient to show that salvation is offered to all men. Whether all will believe is a separate issue.
So, this is what it comes down to most all the time, right? "Whosoever," I mean. There are two different contexts that 'whosoever' can be used in, and both are valid, but they are very different. And because they are very different, only one of those contexts is correct. So:
A. If we say 'whosoever' in the context that anyone and everyone (to put it exactly as you have here) is eligible for salvation, then yes, in that sense it is all-encompassing and universal. Anyone and everyone can possibly be saved.
B. But again, 'whosoever' can mean something quite different ~ have quite a different connotation ~ when used in the context of a limited group of the whole. And that's exactly what Joel does in chapter 2 of his prophecy:
So yes, "whosoever," Joel says, but that whosoever only consists "those whom the LORD calls," and that is a subset of ~ not all of ~ the "survivors." Both Paul (Romans 10) and John (John 3) use this 'whosoever,' and when they do, they are drawing very specifically and intentionally from what Joel says there, again, in Joel 2:32. The truth is, troubling as it may be, that not everyone will be saved; Jesus shows us that graphically in Matthew 25:31-46 in His depiction of the final Judgment.
B. But again, 'whosoever' can mean something quite different ~ have quite a different connotation ~ when used in the context of a limited group of the whole. And that's exactly what Joel does in chapter 2 of his prophecy:
"And it shall come to pass that whosever calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved. For in Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there shall be those who escape, as the LORD has said, and among the survivors shall be those whom the LORD calls." (v.32)
So yes, "whosoever," Joel says, but that whosoever only consists "those whom the LORD calls," and that is a subset of ~ not all of ~ the "survivors." Both Paul (Romans 10) and John (John 3) use this 'whosoever,' and when they do, they are drawing very specifically and intentionally from what Joel says there, again, in Joel 2:32. The truth is, troubling as it may be, that not everyone will be saved; Jesus shows us that graphically in Matthew 25:31-46 in His depiction of the final Judgment.
All these "whosoevers" refer to God's elect, those whom He calls, which is not "anyone and everyone" but rather a subgroup of anyone and everyone.
Well, yes, Jesus's atonement is sufficient to cover "anyone and everyone," but it does not; rather it is efficacious only for God's elect, those whom He calls, who, together, are a subset of the survivors, or "anyone and everyone."
Sure. Numbers 21. Love that passage. Do you know that Paul refers to this in 1 Corinthians 10? He does, and he says there that some Israelites "put this to the test" ~ did not look up to the bronze serpent, presumably because of unbelief, and "were destroyed by the serpents." So not all the Israelites obeyed, and they paid the price. But yes, whosoever did look up to the bronze serpent ~ which represents Jesus in that story in Numbers 21 ~ lived. John refers to this story, too ~ actually Jesus, in His conversation with Nicodemus, when He tells him, "as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up, that whosoever believes in him may have eternal life." But it's the same story; not everyone will believe. Finally, the writer of Hebrews is referring to all this in Hebrews 12:2, when he writes, "let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, looking to Jesus, the founder and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is seated at the right hand of the throne of God." This applies to all, but only some actually will.
The answer to this is a resounding no. Only your perception of what Calvinists understand regarding all this is wrong, along with your understanding of it.
No, because I do no such thing.
Your perception is the problem, Enoch.
Grace and peace to you.
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