John MacArthur lashes out against homosexuality

[Rex]

There are sermons preached by Joel Osteen that I am in total agreement with.
There were sermons preached by RW Schambach that I was in total agreement with.
There were sermons preached by Billy Graham that I was in total agreement with.
There were sermons preached by Jerry Falwell that I was in total agreement with.
There were sermons preached by JV McGee that I was in total agreement with.
There are sermons preached on the BBNRadio.org that I am in total agreement with.
There are sermons preached by Kenneth Copeland that I am in total agreement with.

***And then there were times I had to get off the boat with these guys***

It looks as though you are going to continue to make this a so and so said debate, a one mans teaching VS another. My post above is calling into question the truth VS mans opinions. I simply used your choice of examples from this post and knowing what you usually post as sound teaching. That being a large helping of Joel Olsteen and sometimes combined with your E=MC squared gospel which could be considered a new age type teaching in itself, to say the least its very unusual.

And there are sermons preached by John MacArthur that I am in total agreement with. Remember... I am the guy that posted the link.

Yes as I just said, you are the one that posted the link as a negative as well as others as a positive, that is the nature of my post.
But I would rather deal with the differences rather than the men that presenting them. You then find someone that paints MacArthur as a Calvinist instead of addressing what I call the "love and bubbles" brand of christian new age type teaching, that Joel IMO teaches. Your above statement indicates your scrambling for the neutral ground, that's the gospel Joel teaches.

I am a supporter of the BBNRadio,org, a non-Pentecostal radio program.

I don't know what your comment here is all about except maybe back peddling out of the Pentecostal association.
Or to add validity to your example by adding Lowell Davey isn't a Pentecostal, "Way to go Lowell Davey! " In ether case I find your topic as well as your evidence to support a campaign against MacArthur while supporting Pentecostal as well as Joel Olsteen an outline of what you believe. If you are like Joel, you simple smile say, I don't know or can't say that Jesus is the only way to God, its up to God. I also believe Mormons are following Christ the same as I am. In light of direct questions I find this "flaky" as seen in the videos I posted in your other thread, ( http://www.christianityboard.com/topic/17426-paradise-refound/ )

I understand your simply expressing a watered down version "new age type Christianity" or "love trumps sound doctrine" as I described above, Would you care to talk about how Christians are not called to support bad doctrine or bad behavior? Instead of using bad examples as evidence for or against it. Or someone calling homosexuality a sin, LASHING out?

Like I said I have only formed my case on the information YOU presented here as well as your other post [pros & cons]
I did not resort to Wikipedia to find some dirt on Lowell Davey as you did to find some dirt on MacArthur.
The larger issue is what is being taught not who delivered it.

I don't believe you got to believe in every issue on a preacher to enjoy listening to him. I am a supporter of the BBNRdio,org, a non-Pentecostal radio program. In December 1989, the Bible Broadcasting Network terminated MacArthur's "Grace to You" program. In explaining that step, BBN president Lowell Davey referred to MacArthur's teachings on the blood of Christ, "Lordship Salvation," and, "Hyper-Calvinism." Davey called these teachings "confusing." In a letter dated January 15, 1990, Davey cited a, "....drift by Dr. MacArthur to a theological position that we could not adhere to," and said that MacArthur's sermon series on the theology of election "....convinced us that the direction of 'Grace to You' was toward Hyper-Calvinism...." MacArthur preaches "Salvation" by election of God's sovereignty. However, the term "Hyper-Calvinism" is used by some to denote 5-point Calvinism or even any strong defense of Calvinism, rather than the historical "Hyper-Calvinism" position that only the "Elect" may be offered the Gospel (compare with the historical teaching of all Protestant denominations, including MacArthur, of the free offer of the gospel).

Way to go Lowell Davey!

 

[soupy]

I haven't found a speaker I am in total agreement with all the time, I've not agreed with some of MacArthur sermons, but I also don't toss out everything he says.

I only toss out speakers who don't believe essential doctrine.

...and well Osteen, I can't bear to watch him long enough to know his doctrine. <_<

...okay now that we're on the subject, I think McGee was okay, but I couldn't listen to his negativity.

but MacArther, he is pretty straightforward, I do respect him.

Ruth, I don't believe MacArthur is saying we should shun homosexuals or stand on the street corner harassing them, he was speaking his message to believers that we should not accept the lifestyle or be tricked into accepting them in the name of love. His point was loving them (and their sin) is really hateful. .

Many do not believe in tongues, as for today. I don't find the belief for or against as essential. Another friend really disliked him because he said we should not be involved in politic, another non issue for me.

 

[biggandyy]

You are a very rude person, very immature in debate.

As I recall yours was the first rudeness shown so I assumed that was your "debating" style. Tit for tat, eye for eye, rude for rude. Besides, it's not really a debate, just one person hollering "I'm right!" and the other proving them wrong.

 

[Ruth]

Wow, so full of yourself you can not come to even consider there may be another position. I won't insult you by saying I'll pray you change your mind just so I can feel better about myself the way you have. I may be wrong, but scripture and evidence does not support that conclusion thus far.

The Name-It-Claim-It folks may need to have a Willy Wonka as the Holy Spirit, and that is okay, I have followed the conviction of the Holy Spirit in my life and He has lead me to a sober and clear understanding of the Person and Work of the Holy Spirit in my life and the lives of others.

Maybe this will help you remember, ...I gave my opinion, and you came back with the comment ,you are so full of yourself.

People will be more open to hearing your side of a topic if you do not start with an insult.

 

[biggandyy]

It was in response to your rudeness in post 7, which I found highly personally offensive. How dare you presume since I subscribe to an alternate interpretation of scripture I am in need of prayer so I will change my mind? That is the height of arrogance and self deception.

But since this is a rehash of posts 7 and 8 we can let it be and get back to agreeing with me.

 

[Ruth]

It was in response to your rudeness in post 7, which I found highly personally offensive. How dare you presume since I subscribe to an alternate interpretation of scripture I am in need of prayer so I will change my mind? That is the height of arrogance and self deception.

But since this is a rehash of posts 7 and 8 we can let it be and get back to agreeing with me.

I was not being rude to anyone, it is your own fault for taking it personally. I have heard MacArthur himself call the speaking of tongues demonic, that is a great sin.

 

[rockytopva]

The type of Christianity I know and love...

There was a man named George Clark Rankin who records this account in his "The Story of My Life or More Than a Half Century as I Have Lived It and Seen It Lived" http://docsouth.unc.edu/fpn/rankin/rankin.html

Page 240

The circuit was a large one, comprising seventeen appointments. They were practically scattered all over the county. I preached every other day, and never less than twice and generally three times on Sunday.
I had associated with me that year a young collegemate, Rev. W. B. Stradley. He was a bright, popular fellow, and we managed to give Wytheville regular Sunday preaching. Stradley became a great preacher and died a few years ago while pastor of Trinity Church, Atlanta, Georgia. We were true yokefellows and did a great work on that charge, held fine revivals and had large ingatherings.

The famous Cripple Creek Campground was on that work. They have kept up campmeetings there for more than a hundred years. It is still the great rallying point for the Methodists of all that section. I have never heard such singing and preaching and shouting anywhere else in my life. I met the Rev. John Boring there and heard him preach. He was a well-known preacher in the conference; original, peculiar, strikingly odd, but a great revival preacher.

One morning in the beginning of the service he was to preach and he called the people to prayer. He prayed loud and long and told the Lord just what sort of a meeting we were expecting and really exhorted the people as to their conduct on the grounds. Among other things, he said we wanted no horse- trading and then related that just before kneeling he had seen a man just outside the encampment looking into the mouth of a horse and he made such a peculiar sound as he described the incident that I lifted up my head to look at him, and he was holding his mouth open with his hands just as the man had done in looking into the horse's mouth! But he was a man of power and wrought well for the Church and for humanity.

Page 241

The rarest character I ever met in my life I met at that campmeeting in the person of Rev. Robert Sheffy, known as "Bob" Sheffy. He was recognized all over Southwest Virginia as the most eccentric preacher of that country. He was a local preacher; crude, illiterate, queer and the oddest specimen known among preachers. But he was saintly in his life, devout in his experience and a man of unbounded faith. He wandered hither and thither over that section attending meetings, holding revivals and living among the people. He was great in prayer, and Cripple Creek campground was not complete without "Bob" Sheffy. They wanted him there to pray and work in the altar.

He was wonderful with penitents. And he was great in following up the sermon with his exhortations and appeals. He would sometimes spend nearly the whole night in the straw with mourners; and now and then if the meeting lagged he would go out on the mountain and spend the entire night in prayer, and the next morning he would come rushing into the service with his face all aglow shouting at the top of his voice. And then the meeting always broke loose with a floodtide.

He could say the oddest things, hold the most unique interviews with God, break forth in the most unexpected spasms of praise, use the homeliest illustrations, do the funniest things and go through with the most grotesque performances of any man born of woman.

It was just "Bob" Sheffy, and nobody thought anything of what he did and said, except to let him have his own way and do exactly as he pleased. In anybody else it would not have been tolerated for a moment. In fact, he acted more like a crazy man than otherwise, but he was wonderful in a meeting. He would stir the people, crowd the mourner's bench with crying penitents and have genuine conversions by the score. I doubt if any man in all that conference has as many souls to his credit in the Lamb's Book of Life as old "Bob" Sheffy.


I love these type services, emotional and loud. I have done extensive research on the man and have posted my findings here... http://www.christianforums.com/t7630646/

 

[biggandyy]

I was not being rude to anyone, it is your own fault for taking it personally. I have heard MacArthur himself call the speaking of tongues demonic, that is a great sin.

And I was agreeing with him, tongues is not extant today. And while may not be a willful act of disobedience on the part of the participants, it certainly is not a Spiritual Gift exercised freely by the individual.

 

[rockytopva]

And I was agreeing with him, tongues is not extant today. And while may not be a willful act of disobedience on the part of the participants, it certainly is not a Spiritual Gift exercised freely by the individual.

The old Baptist church I was brought up in was the closest thing to a funeral home as I could imagine. I lived up in Michigan at that time and would look out at the frozen tundra wondering what was more dead and lifeless... The barren ice cold tundra... Or the church that I was in. Further more none of the young people my age walked in the old Baptist paths. They would party, have sex, and smoke dope when not in church.

Sardisean church... I will have to take a pass... I have no use for ya...

 

[Rex]

I was not being rude to anyone, it is your own fault for taking it personally. I have heard MacArthur himself call the speaking of tongues demonic, that is a great sin.

And no one should tread on the holy grail of tongues as it taught today LOL
I have not seen one instance of tongues as it is discribed in Acts 2, and miricels or the evidence of them I should say, is just as elusive.

Instead what I see is people speaking in an unknown tongue or utterances to God with no one interpreting and calling it a manifestation of Acts 2 and then hanging the word indisputable evidence on that hook as having received the HS. Not to mention that tongues spoken in the gathering of believers or church there is supposed to be someone to interpret.

Lets just be truthful there is a bit of exaggeration in both camps,

So the Baptist are dead as well. LOL, not to mention I've seen you hang your hat on the same story many times. Thats like your friend Joel saying it works for me and my wife. In-spite of what may be said in the bible.

The old Baptist church I was brought up in was the closest thing to a funeral home as I could imagine. I lived up in Michigan at that time and would look out at the frozen tundra wondering what was more dead and lifeless... The barren ice cold tundra... Or the church that I was in. Further more none of the young people my age walked in the old Baptist paths. They would party, have sex, and smoke dope when not in church.

Sardisean church... I will have to take a pass... I have no use for ya...

 

[rockytopva]

And no one should tread on the holy grail of tongues as it taught today LOL
I have not seen one instance of tongues as it is discribed in Acts 2, and miricels or the evidence of them I should say, is just as elusive.

Instead what I see is people speaking in an unknown tongue or utterances to God with no one interpreting and calling it a manifestation of Acts 2 and then hanging the word indisputable evidence on that hook as having received the HS. Not to mention that tongues spoken in the gathering of believers or church there is supposed to be someone to interpret.

Lets just be truthful there is a bit of exaggeration in both camps,


So the Baptist are dead as well. LOL, not to mention I've seen you hang your hat on the same story many times. Thats like your friend Joel saying it works for me and my wife. In-spite of what may be said in the bible.

Not every Baptist church... I do support the Thomas Road Baptist church. Why are the people so afraid of 'emotionalism' I will never know.

 

[michaelvpardo]

Regardless of the love and bubbles belief and teaching that has formed under "love" it is not the complete story. The meaning of loving your neighbor and your enemies has become the false flag and then banner that leads the new age type mentality, we all just love and believe what we feel good about and God loves us for it. I do think there is error in this thinking, and I find it hard to fully justify it when I don't see Jesus refraining from chastising the leaders of Israel for teaching a different Gospel, the same with the disciples, they didn't teach to love in agreeance with a contrary message. The love and bubbles people today use love as a shield to defer critics of those that understand the door is narrow and not many find it. They teach that as long you love all the opinions and everybody, you are in full compliance with the highest desire of God, to summarize love trumps sound doctrine. I disagree. The Lord disciplines those he loves as a father disciplines his son. The love and bubbles christians today have rejected even the slightest suggestion of disciple, or that they maybe loving the ways of the world instead of the truth.


When you compare Joels teaching with MacArthors we see loving everyone at the expense of sound teaching is nothing but new age philosophy
http://www.christianityboard.com/topic/17426-paradise-refound/#entry181270

Love isn't accepting false doctrine, nor is it welcoming sin into the congregation, but we are called to love our enemies and to overcome evil with good. I'm not talking about warm fuzzies or sentimentality, but about doing that which is good for others, even when they hate you for it. God gives good things to sinners as well as to saints. He shows kindness to the wicked in the hope of turning them from destruction; This is our calling as well. Not condemnation, but intercession. The devil comes to kill and to destroy, but the Lord is a life giving Spirit. Go to the end of the book. The offer is for all, for any who is thirsty. When we come between the Lord and those He is calling we are doing the devil's work and not Christs. Please remember that the Lord identifies discipline and rebuke as acts of love, but these aren't meant to condemn. The young disciple John and his brother James wanted to call down fire upon a village of the Samaritans, but what was Jesus' rebuke?
55 But He turned and rebuked them,[b] and said, “You do not know what manner of spirit you are of. 56 For the Son of Man did not come to destroy men’s lives but to save them.”[c] And they went to another village. Luke 9:51-56

The Church needs to concern itself with doctrinal purity, but not in opposition to the Spirit that is within us (If we have indeed believed and received Him.) That Spirit is One of grace and truth, not truth without grace. I don't agree with all of MacArthur's doctrine, but I trust the Spirit within him more than that within some babbler using theatrics to gain donations. I've heard John speak about a time when he counseled a young man about the man's choices. That young man ended up committing suicide and I can tell you that the experience had a profound effect upon John MacArthur (though less traumatic than to that young man.) That's a hard burden to bear and one that I can sympathize with. Without love, we are nothing but sounding brass. The Apostle Paul wrote about these things in 1st Corinthians chapter 13 and brass speaks of judgment. Anyone that handles the word of God and allows it to pass through his lips needs to keep it in mind. We are judged by the standard that we use to judge others. However, we are actually called to discern right from wrong and act accordingly, not to judge as in handing out condemnation. That's the Lord's job, not ours. Paul called love the greatest gift and no ministry is "Christian" without it. John tells us that it defines us as Christian: 18 My little children, let us not love in word or in tongue, but in deed and in truth. 19 And by this we know[d] that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before Him. 1 John 3:18-19
Understanding and demonstrating the pre-eminence of love is a sign of maturity and maturity isn't swayed by the winds of doctrine. MacArthur is moving in that direction and you needn't be his student to do the same thing, but rather study and grow in Him to the purpose of our calling, to be renewed in the image of the Son of God, even our Savior Jesus Christ. Amen.

 

[biggandyy]

Well met.

 

[IanLC]

And I was agreeing with him, tongues is not extant today. And while may not be a willful act of disobedience on the part of the participants, it certainly is not a Spiritual Gift exercised freely by the individual.

I disagree with you. I find no scriptural evidence to support that stance. And for Mr. MacArthur watch what you attribute to satan and demons because you are calling a work of the Holy Spirit to satan and that is blasphemy against the Holy Ghost when we attribute His acts and workings to demons or satan. Jesus gives a strong rebuke to that!
"But whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven; he is guilty of an eternal sin. He said this because they were saying, "He has an evil spirit." (Mark 3:29-30)

 

[rockytopva]

I disagree with you. I find no scriptural evidence to support that stance. And for Mr. MacArthur watch what you attribute to satan and demons because you are calling a work of the Holy Spirit to satan and that is blasphemy against the Holy Ghost when we attribute His acts and workings to demons or satan. Jesus gives a strong rebuke to that!
"But whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven; he is guilty of an eternal sin. He said this because they were saying, "He has an evil spirit." (Mark 3:29-30)

Lets dig a little deeper here...

But when the Pharisees heard it, they said, This fellow doth not cast out devils, but by Beelzebub the prince of the devils. - Matthew 24:12

In other words... The Pharisees were saying Jesus was not casting out devils by the power of the Holy Spirit... But by the devil. Which prompted Jesus to reply...

Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men. And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come. -Matthew 24:31-32

I would fear to accuse someone of acting through a devil when in actuality he was acting through the Holy Ghost.

 

[IanLC]

Dr. John MacArthur is an elder statesman in the body of Christ and is due respect and we should listen to his wisdom but he is not infallible and thus we should take the meat and leave the bones. Now I'm not coming against Mr. MacArthur's salvation or His ministry all I am saying is that we need to be careful what we judge and term demonic if 1. we have no scriptural support to make that strong statement 2. we have not received or experienced something. Why would Jesus who is the baptizer with the Holy Ghost give people something demonic? Why would satan allow people to receive something that they use to glorify God? They would be fighting against themselves and a kingdom divided against itself can not stand! If your son or daughter asked you for a good thing would you give them something harmful or evil? You are flesh and would give your child something good how much more will Jesus being holy and divine give good to gifts to those that seek and ask Him?

"If a kingdom is divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand. If a house is divided against itself, that house cannot stand. And if Satan opposes himself and is divided, he cannot stand; his end has come. (Mark 3:24-26)
"If you, then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give good gifts to those who ask him" (Matthew 7:11)
"If you then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!"" (Luke 11:13)

 

[rockytopva]

Someone said after the passing of Jerry Falwell that "They could agree with him every time he was in the bible."

That's the way with me. If a minister is in the bible he has my ear. When he gets to trying to make deductions to justify his own spiritual coldness... Well then... We have problems.

Smith Wigglesworth would return home to England after some great missionary journeys. He then would have a Baptist type want to sit down and want to 'school' him. Wigglesworth writes that he would never contradict the man but sit down and attempt brotherly fellowship. I am the same way. If there is someone I work with I will always show myself a friendly type. As far as MacArthur.. .There are many times he is in the word and what he says in beneficial to the ear.

 

[Rex]

I see this thread as nothing more than the colliding of religions
To speak of Jesus and the NT and not offend anyone, simply isn't going to happen.
Not even between denominations.

Soooo where did the topic go "lashing out against homosexuals?" it seems it has taken a back seat to the real issue, John MacArther offending Pentecostals.

 

[Ruth]

Dr. John MacArthur is an elder statesman in the body of Christ and is due respect and we should listen to his wisdom but he is not infallible and thus we should take the meat and leave the bones. Now I'm not coming against Mr. MacArthur's salvation or His ministry all I am saying is that we need to be careful what we judge and term demonic if 1. we have no scriptural support to make that strong statement 2. we have not received or experienced something. Why would Jesus who is the baptizer with the Holy Ghost give people something demonic? Why would satan allow people to receive something that they use to glorify God? They would be fighting against themselves and a kingdom divided against itself can not stand! If your son or daughter asked you for a good thing would you give them something harmful or evil? You are flesh and would give your child something good how much more will Jesus being holy and divine give good to gifts to those that seek and ask Him?

"If a kingdom is divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand. If a house is divided against itself, that house cannot stand. And if Satan opposes himself and is divided, he cannot stand; his end has come. (Mark 3:24-26)
"If you, then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give good gifts to those who ask him" (Matthew 7:11)
"If you then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!"" (Luke 11:13)

Amen

 

[IanLC]

I see this thread as nothing more than the colliding of religions
To speak of Jesus and the NT and not offend anyone, simply isn't going to happen.
Not even between denominations.

Soooo where did the topic go "lashing out against homosexuals?" it seems it has taken a back seat to the real issue, John MacArther offending Pentecostals.

He has not offended me I am just stating that if his remarks about the gift of tongues is correct meaning that He did state that "tongues were/are of the devil" as people in this topic has stated then he steps into dangerous territory.