"Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Faith" - Has 500 Years Taught Us Nothing?

[BreadOfLife]

The bible never says charity means love. Associated, yes, not equivalent.
Even your postings agree withe me.
By the way, I bought a Zonderans topical bible back in the seventies.

WRONG.
The Bible equates charity with "AGAPE" - brotherly LOVE (1 Cor. 13:13).

 

[BreadOfLife]

Yeah BoL, I knew you'd say this.
But address the problem the CC is having about giving communion to remarrieds.
Is THIS a change in doctrine?
If NOT, then why are so many priests upset about this?
And why are the liberal ones happy about it?

AGAIN - it is a DISCIPLINE.

Even a change in discipline is going to anger people. Just ask the SSPX and other post Vatican II schismatic groups who broke away because of changes in discipline.

 

[Reggie Belafonte]

I agree with all you've said...I just want to clarify that it IS faith that saves us...no amount of works can save us without faith...

After we have faith, then faith is no longer enough and all you've said holds true.
Once we believe, we are required to obey God or we have a dead faith.

Yes we sure do need Faith and faith can grow, faith is the substance of, so we have foundation and reason for our faith, so in that one can not come and delude you of your faith, because it is solid, it can not be washed away by anyone. I have seen this in most of the people that I went to Church Bible study with back in my teens, they did believe and had faith I can remember that clearly but they do not now and they have said to me, you don't still believe that rubbish do ya ! well yes I do and much more so than I ever did.
If one has little faith that is a start but it has no roots to handle what may come, it's like the parable of the sower.

Salvation is in our Lord and Saviour and we abide in the Vine, that's faith at work in you.

My works are but filthy rags, any works are due to God not of myself, I do not believe in man.
People who claim to be doing good works is ok in it's self but if it's not of God such does not count because mans works does not cut the grade, it may look good and maybe ok but some times it's not ok or good at all in Gods eyes, like Political Correctness, Socialism etc fact is when one looks into this type of mans works one can see clearly that they reject Jesus Christ.

I have a good mate that brought me to his Church and all in the 70's and he still believes but he has doubts, because he does not have solid faith, he is just a water baptised Christian but when one is truly Born Again, you do not have doubts because you have the faith that can move mountains.

I am sure many people think they are doing good in following mans works, pushing Socialism and PC etc but it will bite them in the bum one day because it's a Sin and the wagers of Sin is death.
The death of the Soul makes monsters of people such is a curse.

 

[GodsGrace]

Yes we sure do need Faith and faith can grow, faith is the substance of, so we have foundation and reason for our faith, so in that one can not come and delude you of your faith, because it is solid, it can not be washed away by anyone. I have seen this in most of the people that I went to Church Bible study with back in my teens, they did believe and had faith I can remember that clearly but they do not now and they have said to me, you don't still believe that rubbish do ya ! well yes I do and much more so than I ever did.
If one has little faith that is a start but it has no roots to handle what may come, it's like the parable of the sower.

Salvation is in our Lord and Saviour and we abide in the Vine, that's faith at work in you.

My works are but filthy rags, any works are due to God not of myself, I do not believe in man.
People who claim to be doing good works is ok in it's self but if it's not of God such does not count because mans works does not cut the grade, it may look good and maybe ok but some times it's not ok or good at all in Gods eyes, like Political Correctness, Socialism etc fact is when one looks into this type of mans works one can see clearly that they reject Jesus Christ.

I have a good mate that brought me to his Church and all in the 70's and he still believes but he has doubts, because he does not have solid faith, he is just a water baptised Christian but when one is truly Born Again, you do not have doubts because you have the faith that can move mountains.

I am sure many people think they are doing good in following mans works, pushing Socialism and PC etc but it will bite them in the bum one day because it's a Sin and the wagers of Sin is death.
The death of the Soul makes monsters of people such is a curse.

Hi RB,
Many words of wisdom here.
Whatever we are able to do we do with the help of God. Without His help, we can do nothing.

As to your friend with little faith, Jesus said the faith of a mustard seed is enough. We're not all the same but God loves everyone that shows love for Him. Maybe you've had some nice experiences that have helped your faith along and your friend has not. I've just learned that we have to thank God for all the good things we have and try not to think of the bad ones --- even though we do, we're only human -- but we do need to let those thoughts go.

I'm just not sure what you mean by man's works and God's works.
I think anything we do that is good is a good work for God.
I think by man's works you mean what men accomplish...like men in govt.
Is this right?
I also dislike socialism, BTW, and do not have much faith in man.

 

[CoreIssue]

WRONG.
The Bible equates charity with "AGAPE" - brotherly LOVE (1 Cor. 13:13).

Fruit of does not mean the same as.

 

[GodsGrace]

AGAIN - it is a DISCIPLINE.

Even a change in discipline is going to anger people. Just ask the SSPX and other post Vatican II schismatic groups who broke away because of changes in discipline.

I don't know what the SSPX is but I can infer from your statement that it's a schismatic group. Yes, many were upset with the changes. I liked them...I felt they brought people closer to God. I do like some aspects of the Latin Mass but I do believe it should be in the language of the respective country. So much of what the priest was saying was missed by the congregation.

 

[Reggie Belafonte]

AGAIN - it is a DISCIPLINE.

Even a change in discipline is going to anger people. Just ask the SSPX and other post Vatican II schismatic groups who broke away because of changes in discipline.

No they had to brake away because there church was becoming to worldly and it was not they who did change, but the RCC that changed, many Priest were in horror of the change back in the day and many left and many stayed but did not swallow all that the Popes were peddling and now we have this Freemason Pope Frances that is the most popular Pope in history with Atheist and ever other ding bat, but is despised by many older generation in the RCC who say he is the worst pope ever..

 

[GodsGrace]

No they had to brake away because there church was becoming to worldly and it was not they who did change, but the RCC that changed, many Priest were in horror of the change back in the day and many left and many stayed but did not swallow all that the Popes were peddling and now we have this Freemason Pope Frances that is the most popular Pope in history with Atheist and ever other ding bat, but is despised by many older generation in the RCC who say he is the worst pope ever..

The above is for BoL, I just want to say that this is what he's saying...that they broke away because the church changed.

I don't understand how it changed for the worse, which you seem to think it did.
I do agree about this Pope...many feel as you do.

You must know I've left the CC but I'm still very involved...long story.
I do want to say that, generally speaking, catholics tend to think more about the church than about Jesus (not you). I wish it were different...

 

[Reggie Belafonte]

I don't know what the SSPX is but I can infer from your statement that it's a schismatic group. Yes, many were upset with the changes. I liked them...I felt they brought people closer to God. I do like some aspects of the Latin Mass but I do believe it should be in the language of the respective country. So much of what the priest was saying was missed by the congregation.

The move away from the Latin mass was a lowering of the standards, they had to do this only for the people who were not so devout, fair enough but Latin is closer to God. but they failed to teach it.
They should of said in Latin so many words then in English after that and so on through out, then every one would know what the words meant easy in time.

 

[GodsGrace]

The move away from the Latin mass was a lowering of the standards, they had to do this only for the people who were not so devout, fair enough but Latin is closer to God. but they failed to teach it.
They should of said in Latin so many words then in English after that and so on through out, then every one would know what the words meant easy in time.

I agree that it was a lowering of "standards"...this is not what we mean but I can't think of the word and I'm too tired.
I agree about trying to get more people to go to church by making it more "user friendly".

I don't agree about the Latin. Why do you think Latin was so important?
It's just a language.

BTW, I DO have friends my age that learned Latin in church.

Gotta go.

 

[Reggie Belafonte]

The above is for BoL, I just want to say that this is what he's saying...that they broke away because the church changed.

I don't understand how it changed for the worse, which you seem to think it did.
I do agree about this Pope...many feel as you do.

You must know I've left the CC but I'm still very involved...long story.
I do want to say that, generally speaking, catholics tend to think more about the church than about Jesus (not you). I wish it were different...

I agree that they do think more about the church like you say.

It changed with the world and I thought this good back in the day, but looking back I can see it clearly now was not good and I bought an old Catholic teaching book from them times, some years back and it struck me where the devil was in the detail clearly, I only read so much and then could not force myself to read any more of it. I will have to look for it and point it out.

 

[Reggie Belafonte]

I agree that it was a lowering of "standards"...this is not what we mean but I can't think of the word and I'm too tired.
I agree about trying to get more people to go to church by making it more "user friendly".

I don't agree about the Latin. Why do you think Latin was so important?
It's just a language.

BTW, I DO have friends my age that learned Latin in church.

Gotta go.

English is trash language because you can say something and be mistaken to easy, Latin does not.
Vagueness of I would say, one could be talking to you about some topic and you will all agree but the fact of the matter is you do not agree, It may of come across that one was with you but they are not, because they have a different perception some what of what the word maybe conveying on some point that can be missed somewhat. words can have different meanings and you can be tricked up in court with such or legal interpretation of things.

I have a mate that claims strongly that all words used by professionals is just rubbish, or made up to only delude others, I say to him that ignorance is bliss, but I do not use layman's words for things in my business because it's just stupid to use such to another who is in the same business, as they would think you a amateur or just a ignorant fool.

 

[Phoneman777]

Do you suppose Protestantism is the way it was 500 years ago?
Do you think it hasn't evolved?
Luther believed in the Real Presence. He was Catholic, after all !

I don't hear the CC saying that one must receive communion to be saved...
I know that it's a sacrament that offers grace; all the sacraments (7 of them) offer grace.

Catholics believe in salvation by grace through faith just like we do.
It's just that they're more secure in their beliefs about "works" and we like to argue about this.

Please go back and read my post. Catholic doctrine says:

• God made forgiveness and salvation available to mankind based on His approval of Christ's obedient life WITHOUT the need for Christ to shed His blood to atone for our sins
• that forgiveness is obtained by asking for it from the priesthood, period.
• Christ NEVER died for our sins - though we are forgiven of our sin, we must pay for it through penance/Purgatory before entering heaven
• Christ's life of obedience supplies and endless amount of "merit" which the priesthood grants to the faithful through an "indulgence" which can be purchased with donations or earned through performing works

Luther REJECTED transubstantiation as a legit doctrine- though he wrote that "Christ is present in the Eucharist, which is Biblical. So what. Do we Protestants not believe He is present at Communion? It's probably a good idea to brush up on your studies about the Reformation and also what is core Catholic doctrine.

 

[Phoneman777]

TRANSLATION:
"You caught me sticking y foot in my mouth again - now I can't get it out!"

Doing your chicken dance on the chess board again, right?

 

[Phoneman777]

And there you go again exposing your abject IGNORANCE.

When was the last time you took a course in Latin??
"CORPUS CHRISTI" means "BODY OF CHRIST" - not "CORPSE", Einstein. Do your homework . . .


The Mass is not a crucifixion - but a RE-Presentation of His ETERNAL Sacrifice (Rev. 13:8).
Study your Bible, son . . .

Dead Bread, "body" and "corpse" are the SAME thing when the context of DEATH, genius papist.

Papal priests "eat the flesh" and "drink the blood" of Christ in the Eucharist - try eating the flesh and blood of a live steer or ox and see how much of their flesh and blood you can consume before you are gored to death or trampled underfoot. But a DEAD steer or ox? No problem.

You papists have worked it out so that Jesus STAYS DEAD on the Cross round the clock with your ridiculous morning/evening mass garbage.

 

[Phoneman777]

Luther waled away from the FULLNESS of Christ (Eph. 1:22-23).

Luther correctly concluded that the papacy is the prophesied Antichrist and heeded God's warning to "come out from her, My people, that ye be not partakers of her sins and receive not of her plagues." (Revelation 18:4)

 

[Phoneman777]

Uh, huh - and what happened AFTER the invention of the printing press??
HOW MANY differing translations of Scripture exist today??
HOW MANY of them teach polar opposite things than other translations?
HOW MANY Scriptural perversions exist in those different translations because people claim to have been "LED" by the Holy sporit??
HOW MANY disjointed and perpetually-splintering Protestant factions have given way to MORE factions - ALL teaching different doctrines yet ALL claiming to have been "LED" by the Holy Spirit??

This absolute MESS was made by flawed, sinful MEN - not God, so don't put the blame on Him . . .

Christianity was doing just fine until Paul's prophecies of the soon to come "apostasy" was fulfilled by the papacy, which hid away the Bible from the faithful, replaced doctrine with superstition for over 1,000 years, and you have the nerve to blame Protestantism for the resulting confusion?

Two things that ALL Protestants understood full well after the light of the Protestant Reformation dispelled the 1,000 years of Dark Age darkness of which the blame rests squarely on the papacy:

1) salvation is by grace through faith in Jesus' sacrifice for the sins of mankind, NOT BY GRACE ARBITRARILY GRANTED TO MANKIND BY A GOD MOVED WITH SATISFACTION OVER HIS SON'S OBEDIENT LIFE WITHOUT THE NEED OF JESUS' BLOOD ATONEMENT.

2) The Antichrist, Man of Sin, Little Horn, Whore of Babylon, etc., of prophecy is the papacy and Satan's headquarters on Earth.

 

[Phoneman777]

This isn't about a "confounding of language" - but perversion of Biblical doctrines.

You mean perversions like:

"All have sinned" is perverted to mean "all except Mary".
"Christ was offered once" is perverted to mean "Christ is offered twice a day in the Mass".
"Do not pray using vain repetition" is perverted to mean "Rosary is legit"
"Call no man father" is perverted to mean "the priest is our spiritual father"
"Sabbath is Saturday" is perverted to mean "Sunday is...a change for which there is no Scriptural authority."
"There is ONE Mediator...the Man Christ Jesus" is perverted to mean "Mary, the priesthood, and saints are necessary for mediation"
"Flee fornication" is perverted to mean "rape and molest as many children as your priestly hands allow".

 

[Dave L]

The anti-Christ is someone who is against Jesus.
We have here the most Protestant Pope ever...
And the most liberal.

Antichrist = against Christ or in place of Christ. As the self proclaimed "Vicar of Christ" = in place of Christ, many see the papacy as the Antichrist.

 

[Dave L]

Really?
Can you show me tens of thousands of Protestant creeds that name the Pope as the Antichrist??
You said "MOST"

The Protestants = those of the Reformation and their off shoots.