Just for....those who, well, not just for some, but for all who would love God.

[Philip James]

Sounds exclusive to me

Who belongs to the Catholic Church?

836 "All men are called to this catholic unity of the People of God.... and to it, in different ways, belong or are ordered: the Catholic faithful, others who believe in Christ, and finally all mankind, called by God's grace to salvation

Not sure how one can get more inclusive than that.

Pax!

 

[Giuliano]

Hello Scott.

That is exactly why we must remain within the apostolic community.
Those who teach false doctrine:

They went out from us, but they were not really of our number; if they had been, they would have remained with us. Their desertion shows that none of them was of our number.

Peace!

What does that mean? That anyone who disagrees with the (earthly) Catholic Church on any doctrines is not part of the Spiritual Church?

 

[marks]

Of course it MUST be. If the church as a whole has fallen into error, then the gates of hell have prevailed, and Jesus is made a liar and a false prophet.

Not so. You say "the church" but the "the church" does not have beliefs. People do. "The church" is not right or wrong. People are.

And the the gates of hell - death - will not keep those whom God has redeemed away from Him.

It means in commuion with a community founded by the apostles, who have faithfully passed down the One Loaf broken and given to us by Jesus, and the ONE cup that is the new covenant in His Blood.

Peace be with you!

That would be all of us. But just the same, some are in error. Isn't that plain to see?

Much love!

 

[amadeus]

That is exactly why we must remain within the apostolic community.
Those who teach false doctrine:

They went out from us, but they were not really of our number; if they had been, they would have remained with us. Their desertion shows that none of them was of our number.

Peace!

The Reformation occurred a few hundred years ago, so your underlined words for the most part speaks of people who had already finished their time on planet Earth long before any of us here were born. But... perhaps it could speak to a few, like myself, who was once a very sincere Catholic. Those early years to me were a good time and it was a time when I most certainly believed in God and strived to do things 'right'. Am I [and others like me], a deserter, then? What your honest answer be. I suppose you have read some on my testimonies and are aware of how I departed from Catholicism?

 

[Philip James]

The Reformation occurred a few hundred years ago, so your underlined words for the most part speaks of people who had already finished their time on planet Earth long before any of us here were born

Not just those of the reformation, but throughout the history of the Church there are those who taught unorthodox doctrine and left (or were forced out) the community, drawing others after them.
As for the reformaton, the spirit of private judgement and rebellion that it embraced is alive and well as evidenced by the confusion that reigns amongst its children...

The astounding thing to me, is that even here, Jesus triumphs, and His name is thus brought to all..

For all of us, who put our faith in Him and submit to His judgement, and hope in His mercy will not be disappointed...

Am I [and others like me], a deserter, then? What your honest answer be. I

You've got me examing my concience now. My first thought on reading this was 'why are you asking me to judge you'
Which has led to me asking 'am i already doing so?'
Honestly, i dont think I can answer that question without further reflection..

Peace![/QUOTE]

 

[amadeus]

Not just those of the reformation, but throughout the history of the Church there are those who taught unorthodox doctrine and left (or were forced out) the community, drawing others after them.
As for the reformaton, the spirit of private judgement and rebellion that it embraced is alive and well as evidenced by the confusion that reigns amongst its children...

That spirit, of which you speak, may be going in at least two directions (two spirits?). There are those [probably few] who really were stifled where they were in their walk with and toward God and had to leave. [This leaving would apply not only to leaving the CC, but others (Protestant) as well.]

And then there are those [probably the majority] who simply were stifled in their ability to freely go their own ways [definitely not really God's Way].

The astounding thing to me, is that even here, Jesus triumphs, and His name is thus brought to all..

For all of us, who put our faith in Him and submit to His judgement, and hope in His mercy will not be disappointed...

God really does always know His own sheep, be they Catholic or of some other label. I do believe that the Church [not any formally organized group that every man can readily see with natural eyes] with Jesus does triumph. The question for us is not about denominational connections here, but whether or not we are on His side...

You've got me examing my concience now. My first thought on reading this was 'why are you asking me to judge you'
Which has led to me asking 'am i already doing so?'
Honestly, i dont think I can answer that question without further reflection..

Peace!

I did really desert the Catholic Church, but more importantly during those years of separation [from 1961] I deserted God.

Yes, I believed God as a Catholic. Why the connection was broken was probably mostly if not completely my own fault... but God still loved me. He did draw me back to Him in 1976. There is not doubt in mind about that... but it was not through the Catholic Church. There is a reason, or reasons, for that as well. That is also another testimony, or even a series of testimonies, which I'll not give here and now.

You may answer on this point of desertion when and if you choose to do so. No problem either way.

 

[Philip James]

Am I [and others like me], a deserter, then?

I've spent a few days mulling this over in my head, and whether I felt this way about those who have left the Catholic Church.

And I would have to say no I don't feel that way. To me, a deserter would be someone who knows the Truth found in the Catholic Church, but who abandons it in the face of persecutions and trials. While this may be true for some, I doubt if most ex-catholics would meet that definition (this may change in the coming trials..)

I think I honestly try not to judge anyone without a hearing, but if I have a prejudicial bias about ex-catholics (and most protestants), it would be to assume ignorance.
Ignorance of just what the Church actually teaches and believes.. and why.
The sad thing is this could be said for many nominal Catholics as well. I know, I was one of them for many years, only truly beginning investigating my Faith when I found myself attacked by some who see the Catholic Church as the enemy. Not wanting to unknowingly be aiding the enemy, I tested their assertions by studying. The more I learnt about what the Church actually teaches, the early church, and the history of the church down through the centuries, the more convinced I was of the Catholic church's claims.

As for you specifically, looks like you answered the question yourself, but I don't think I would have called you a deserter.

Peace be with you!

 

[Philip James]

Hello marks,

Not so. You say "the church" but the "the church" does not have beliefs. People do. "The church" is not right or wrong. People are.

Well I guess that depends what you mean by 'beliefs'. The Church has one mind (the mind of Christ). It has one Faith, one baptism, one Lord of all...

That would be all of us.

All are in communion with a community founded by an apostle? Surely not...

But just the same, some are in error. Isn't that plain to see?

It's plain that many are in error, and that to varying degrees... The closer they hold to the Truth of the Catholic faith, the less error they are in

Peace be with you!

 

[marks]

Well I guess that depends what you mean by 'beliefs'. The Church has one mind (the mind of Christ). It has one Faith, one baptism, one Lord of all...

If you mean by church the individual believers, then the individual believers have beliefs, and some may be correctly formed, and some may be misguided, and in error.

If you mean the church as an institution, that is, the corporate body of believers as a unit, then, well, let's look at the passage.

Ephesians 4
4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
7 But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.

One body, so we are a unit. One Spirit, this is what unifies us. One expectation, we serve One Lord, there is a single faith - one faith - that is true. On baptism with which we are baptized. One God and Father.

Continuing on . . .

11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

So then not all are in the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God.

So if we are not all in unity faith and knowledge, how would we be able to say that the corporate body of Christ has a belief? We have various beliefs, and we need to all be brought together into maturity, when we will go on from that unity to build each other up in love.

All are in communion with a community founded by an apostle? Surely not...

That would be the Body of Christ. So we are to divide by those who name an apostle? I am in the body of Christ, founded by Christ, and built upon by the Apostles. Is this not true of all who are born again?

Much love!

 

[marks]

That sounds a bit like agreeing to disagree; agreeing with Who is in charge, but then disagreeing on who the church actually is.

I would encourage you to consider that you have it upside down, that the leaders are not the church, but are the least of them and have no more authority than servants, servants that are blind (as it is written). The church rather has One Head and many members of one body, with the same authority give to the meek among the congregation as to those who hold position. For the victory of these times is not won in halls, but in hearts, even in homes.

Submit yourselves one to another . . . esteeming others better than yourself . . . looking to the needs of others over yourself . . . There is no spiritual authority given one over another, only the command to submit.

Much love!

 

[Philip James]

One body, so we are a unit.

yes

One Spirit, this is what unifies us.

The Spirit certainly calls us to that unity, and to preserve and build up that unity. And that unity is effected and empowered here:

The cup of blessing that we bless, is it not a participation in the blood of Christ? The bread that we break, is it not a participation in the body of Christ?

Because the loaf of bread is one, we, though many, are one body, for we all partake of the one loaf.

(I'll come back to this)

One expectation, we serve One Lord, there is a single faith - one faith - that is true. On baptism with which we are baptized. One God and Father.

Amen!

Continuing on . . .

So then not all are in the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God.

Indeed, but all are called to that unity..

So if we are not all in unity faith and knowledge, how would we be able to say that the corporate body of Christ has a belief?

Because those that are in unity with the apostolic communities preserve, teach and pass on that 'unity of faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God' that they received from the apostles.

We have various beliefs, and we need to all be brought together into maturity, when we will go on from that unity to build each other up in love.

indeed

That would be the Body of Christ. So we are to divide by those who name an apostle? I am in the body of Christ, founded by Christ, and built upon by the Apostles. Is this not true of all who are born again?

yes, but as you said earlier 'not all are in the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God' . Have a look at the ancient apostolic communities.. Rome, Alexandria, Constantinople...

These all teach that the Eucharist is the pure offering of Malachi 1:11
These all teach that a proper Eucharist is one presided over by the bishop or one which he has approved..
These all teach that the Eucharist is the Body and Blood of Christ..
These all teach that proper participation in the Eucharist not only demonstrates but effects our union with one another.

is there a reason you are not joined to one of them?

Peace!

 

[Philip James]

Submit yourselves one to another . . . esteeming others better than yourself . . . looking to the needs of others over yourself . . . There is no spiritual authority given one over another, only the command to submit.

Much love!

Hi marks,
I could give you many verses that say otherwise but let's start with this from Jude:

Woe to them! They followed the way of Cain, abandoned themselves to Balaam's error for the sake of gain, and perished in the rebellion of Korah.


If no one has spiritual authority over another, how can they 'perish in the rebellion of Korah' ?

Peace!

 

[marks]

Because those that are in unity with the apostolic communities preserve, teach and pass on that 'unity of faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God' that they received from the apostles.

And who are these apostolic communities? My church?

Much love!

 

[marks]

is there a reason you are not joined to one of them?

Ah. Nevermind. there is answer.

Rather exclusive, wouldn't you say!

 

[marks]

Hi marks,
I could give you many verses that say otherwise but let's start with this from Jude:

Woe to them! They followed the way of Cain, abandoned themselves to Balaam's error for the sake of gain, and perished in the rebellion of Korah.

If no one has spiritual authority over another, how can they 'perish in the rebellion of Korah' ?

Peace!

Are you proposing that it was Moses' spiritual authority that caused the earth to open, and these men go alive into the pit?

Are you proposing that we define New Covenant assembly relationships according to Old Covenant terms?

Are you proposing that some have power to send others to hell?

Can you show me Scripture that teaches that some of us are to take up authority over others? Or are there only passages that teach us, within the New Covenant, to submit to each other?

Much love!

 

[Philip James]

Are you proposing that it was Moses' spiritual authority that caused the earth to open, and these men go alive into the pit?

Are you proposing that we define New Covenant assembly relationships according to Old Covenant terms?

Are you proposing that some have power to send others to hell?

Can you show me Scripture that teaches that some of us are to take up authority over others? Or are there only passages that teach us, within the New Covenant, to submit to each other?

Much love!

I am pointing out that Jude warns us of the rebellion of Korah, therefore there must be a parallel of what Korah did to what some Christians did.

So lets look at what Korah said:
Num 16:3

and held an assembly against Moses and Aaron, to whom they said, "Enough from you! The whole community, all of them, are holy; the LORD is in their midst. Why then should you set yourselves over the LORD'S congregation?"

You can see here that he makes the mistake of assuming that Moses and Aaron set themselves over the assembly and rejects their aurhority.

The parallel in the Church would be those who reject the authority of the overseers and presbyters who received their authority from Christ through the apostles.

So today if I were to say, 'who are Richard and John' that they set themselves over the congregation, i would be doing just as Korah...

As for 'taking up' authority, no one can make themselves an elder in the Church, it must be done by those with the authority to give it.

Titus 1:5

For this reason I left you in Crete so that you might set right what remains to be done and appoint presbyters in every town, as I directed you,

Can you imagine some Creten objecting to Titus' authority, and saying 'who are you and Paul that you set yourselves over the assembly' ?

Rather exclusive, wouldn't you say!

Hardly. The Catholic Church is the most inclusive community in the world.

All are welcome to come to the wedding feast of the Lamb of God!

Rich or poor, slave or free, men and women from every nation and culture...

The rich diversity of rites, devotions, communities, missions, associations... All who come together to worship and celebrate the Divine Mysteries, bearing with one another in love... Demonstrates this.

Peace be with you!

 

[marks]

The parallel in the Church would be those who reject the authority of the overseers and presbyters who received their authority from Christ through the apostles.

Ok, let's look at those passages that give authority so some over others. Where would you like to begin?

Are you saying that since Paul told Titus to set up elders that this gives me the right to say you are to obey me?

Much love!

 

[marks]

Hardly. The Catholic Church is the most inclusive community in the world.

And yet you say I'm not a part of it.

What am I a part of if not the Universal Church of Jesus Christ?

Much love!

 

[marks]

The parallel in the Church would be those who reject the authority of the overseers and presbyters who received their authority from Christ through the apostles.

Received what authority exactly?

This will be the next question. Once we've established, if we do, the Biblical foundation for one being in authority over another, then we will need to have the Bible tell us what that authority entails. Not that I can tell you to wash my car or be cast out of the church, as one self-proclaimed apostle boasted of in my hearing.

Much love!

 

[Philip James]

Ok, let's look at those passages that give authority so some over others. Where would you like to begin?

Are you saying that since Paul told Titus to set up elders that this gives me the right to say you are to obey me?

Much love!

I believe we have already begun.

Im saying that since Titus appointed their elders, the Cretens had a duty to submit to them.

Received what authority exactly?

Ill be glad to answer that question, when we have agreed that the bishops and presbyters have been given authority...

And yet you say I'm not a part of it.

What am I a part of if not the Universal Church of Jesus Christ?

When have I said that?

Rather, I agreed with you when you said:
'not all are in the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God'

Peace!