Justification, instant sanctification and progressive sanctification and sainthood..

[marks]

The Holy Spirit is not an "it" But a "He". He is God with us, Emmanuel. He is making this earthen vessel an Holy sacrifice acceptable to the LORD, which is our reasonable service (Romans 12:1-2)

Thank you! That was a typo, "is training" is what I meant to write.

You realize that the "Holy Spirit" is a neuter noun, and is written with neuter and masculine genders? So you were correct, I mis-wrote. But even so, if I were to refer to the Holy Spirit in neuter gender, that would be consistent with the Bible.

Much love!

 

[David H.]

To be clear, I point to these things because of how they detract from reasonable discussion,

It is YOU who have detracted from the reasonable discussion by being offended. Everything was "kosher" up until comment #36, and then you just snapped, for whatever reason. I even paid you a compliment several comments before that one and gave you a "like" which I do not often do on sites.

 

[marks]

If You are truly born again then there should be no fear in you of dying.

So what do you think is the case? Do you think I'm afraid of dying?

Let me ask you this . . .

Do you think I'm afraid of what the Holy Spirit may do in my life?

Much love!

 

[David H.]

Then you need to find a new church!

That is how you end up with denominationalism, which is what the church was never meant to be. We are all one body. This is the Unity of the Spirit that this doctrine rightly understood CAN bring. You see if I run and form a new denomination, all I am doing is giving up, and losing faith, that is not How the LORD intended His church to be. You see, He gave me visions of this, and although I am inept at explaining these things, I know the veracity of them because these revelations are From God. He has proven this true in my calling and in my service to Him.

 

[David H.]

Do you think I'm afraid of what the Holy Spirit may do in my life?

To Be honest, even though I know this is a "trap" question, I think you have a problem with being taught by the Holy Spirit, and that you Quench the Spirit. What Motivates this in you i am unsure of, if it is fear, then there is a submission issue, I Personally think it is more of a fear of falling into error as I said earlier, and can suspect the reasons for this from some past experience in a cult or something, but i do not know these details of your life, as you have not shared them.

 

[marks]

That is how you end up with denominationalism, which is what the church was never meant to be. We are all one body. This is the Unity of the Spirit that this doctrine rightly understood CAN bring. You see if I run and form a new denomination, all I am doing is giving up, and losing faith, that is not How the LORD intended His church to be. You see, He gave me visions of this, and although I am inept at explaining these things, I know the veracity of them because these revelations are From God. He has proven this true in my calling and in my service to Him.

What I'm saying is if your church is so bad as all that, you need to find one that's more in line with God's Word.

And otherwise you are broad-brush overgeneralizing a lot of people you don't know and have never even met.

Much love!

 

[marks]

To Be honest, even though I know this is a "trap" question, I think you have a problem with being taught by the Holy Spirit, and that you Quench the Spirit. What Motivates this in you i am unsure of, if it is fear, then there is a submission issue, I Personally think it is more of a fear of falling into error as I said earlier, and can suspect the reasons for this from some past experience in a cult or something, but i do not know these details of your life, as you have not shared them.

Thank you for your honesty! That's what I was hoping for. I mean, the answer was obvious, but it needs to be in the open to be looked at.

What is it that causes you to think I have a problem being taught by the Holy Spirit?

What gives you any reason at all to think anything other than that I most deeply desire to be fallen headlong into the Holy Spirit to be carted away wherever and however He wants me? That I give myself to Him?

Much love!

 

[marks]

but i do not know these details of your life, as you have not shared them.

Thank you!

 

[David H.]

And otherwise you are broad-brush overgeneralizing a lot of people you don't know and have never even met.

I Have met, and do know in general the condition of the church as a whole from observation and divine revelation from the Word of God and the Holy Spirit in me. I Make these comments based on the heart of God for his church, the grief he has shown me he has for what the church has become in this day and age. There is a total lack of vision in much of Protestantism that has led to this denominationalism, and even the Non-denominational churches are a denomination unto themselves. The Body is meant to be many members, all working together as one, what we have is all the hands here, and all the feet there in that denomination, All because of this one big error of the reformation, and a failure to understand the difference between the faithful and the saints. I have only touched on this here with regard to Calvinism and Arminianism, I can tie this to the Weslyan Baptist divide, the conditional eternal security divide, Law vs. grace divide....etc. Even the great schism is involved and the very reformation, as I see there is a failure in the orthodox and catholic churches to understand the saints rightly, even though they along with the Anglicans rightly distinguish between the saints and the faithful, they do so detrimentally, which led to the reformation casting out the baby with the dirty water in their reformation.

What is it that causes you to think I have a problem being taught by the Holy Spirit?

Because if you were hungry for this, you would hear what I am saying and rejoice at this revelation which I am trying to show you. The King is coming and he is preparing his Bride, and his saints for His coming By sending and revealing these truths to those who have ears to hear. For me personally, the greatest revelation was when he showed me we are all Laodiceans in this day and age, and that when I began to heed the rebukes in that letter, and apply the corrections asked, that is when He began to reveal the entire picture Of His church to me, from beginning to end, why there is a progressive revelation, and why we the Laodicean age should rejoice in our identity and not try to deny it. It is a picture that I see, and can describe in little pieces, but cannot paint in one overarching post, so I try and post little pieces hoping that some will begin to catch a glimpse of the big picture, a paint stroke here and a paint stroke there.

I cannot tell you how many times I have said to Christians that we are all Laodiceans only to be met with derision, contempt, denial and illogical offense, as you have exhibited here. I Understand this, and am not offended by this. I expect this, as this is how I was when he first began to reveal these things to me. But these are all merely glimpses of the Big Picture he has shown me, I Know he has shown others more details in other areas of that painting, but they are all the same picture.

Do You understand this? Or am i off my rocker as some have told me already?

You see vision is about seeing what is bigger than we are capable of understanding. Our mind, The Carnal mind is the enemy of God giving us vision. The mind wants to rationalize and to deny and place God into a box of human understanding which is impossible and limits God. We need this vision in our Christian walk which is bigger than our comprehension. Just like when we first enter into his Holy Presence we are overwhelmed with his holiness, so too when he first shows us his plans they overwhelm us. Men spend their entire lives studying revelation coming up with all sorts of charts and timelines all because they lack this vision. They are using their mind to comprehend what only the Spirit can reveal, and in so doing so they are chasing rabbits down many rabbit holes.

Do You see this?

What gives you any reason at all to think anything other than that I most deeply desire to be fallen headlong into the Holy Spirit to be carted away wherever and however He wants me? That I give myself to Him?

If You do see what I wrote above, then you will know the answer to this question. Do You have this vision of how the Plan of God unfolds? It is a burden you bear if He has granted it to you. What I see and observe is one who would rather quench the move of the Holy Spirit. One that does not want this burden. I Mentioned the beattitudes read the last three, that burden begins with being a peacemaker, and the reaction to this leads to being reviled and persecuted. This is what this burden has to offer, and this is what makes it so worth carrying.

 

[marks]

many times I have said to Christians that we are all Laodiceans

Well, it's actually not true. We're not.

Would you like to start our purely Scriptural discussion there?

Revelation 3:14-22
14) And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;
15) I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.
16) So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.
17) Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
18) I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.
19) As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.
20) Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.
21) To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.
22) He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

Ephesians 1:6 "To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved."

if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him,

John 14:23-26
23) Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
24) He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.
25) These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you.
26) But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him,
and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

Christ lives in the redeemed, but invites these Laodiceans to open the door so He can come in.

Much love!

 

[David H.]

if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him,
and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

Christ lives in the redeemed, but invites these Laodiceans to open the door so He can come in.

This is off topic but i will address this since I brought it up.

The Church of Laodicea is a church, A church can only be a church if it is a gathering of Born again believers. Correct? so all the people of the church of Laodicea are born again believers.

Here is what the Lord showed me. The church of Philadelphia was the church of the open door, They had everything right doctrinally and the presence of God was in the church. This was the fundamentalism of the late seventeen hundreds into the eighteen hundreds. What happened is that this lack of rebuke led to textualism, which I addressed here earlier and will not repeat, closed the door to the fruit of that right doctrine to blossom. The rigid dispensationalism ousted the holiness movements from these churches, those who were pushing for something holier (godliness), and that door was closed to the Holy Spirit. some of those who were in this Holiness camp were pushed out of the denominational churches and from them the new charismatic revival occurred beginning with Asuza St. revival, this was the birth of the final Laodicean church age. In seeing the closed door in front of them, they opened many other doors. For in reacting to the rigid textualism of the fundamentalists, they threw out the sound doctrine along with the textualism that had closed the One Door of divine revelation that should have been left open. To Be more correct, some did open the right door and this was a fruitful revival early on but as time went on without the gift of discernment of spirits they opened all manner of doors, to many familiar spirits which both corrupted, and silenced the revelations from the one true door. So We now have a church, of believers with other spirits working in them, but the door of divine revelation being silenced, and drowned out by the noise of "other revelations from other spirits". there is a total lack of discernment as to what is true and from God and what is not. This is post modernism in a nutshell.

the solution to this Problem is right there in that epistle. The problem is their denial of a the problem, they are self deceived, they think they are in need of nothing, But the truth is they are wretched, pitiable blind and poor and naked spiritually. Nakedness and Blindness and poverty of Spirit are not salvation issues but character issues. Yes a worldling is blind poor and naked, but these are part of the church that are these things. The Solution is to buy gold refined in the fire, eyesalve of God, clothing to cover their nakedness, a worldling cannot buy these things only a believer can. Once this occurs then the right door can be opened one that is both sound doctrinally and full of the revelations from God. Until then, all the doors that are opened may be errant and lead to seducing spirits. But none of this can begin until you, me and all the believers in this day stop denying their identity as Laodiceans and embrace this identity and heed those instructions. The Biggest complaint I hear is "but i am a Philadelphian fundamentalist, i have nothing to worry about" This is the heart of where this denial begins.

This teaching on saints is all a direct result of this understanding. it unifies all the seven church ages and the Seven Spirits of God imparted to the seven church ages in the last and final church age. One thing pentecostalism is not is denominational. There are catholics who are pentecostals, methodists, anglicans, orthodox and even conservative Baptists like myself. We all share this one thing in common, and that is we desire the Moving and the revelation of the Holy Spirit, But up until now we have lacked the unifying vision of what this looks like. I Believe it is the understanding of the journey of a saint that will join us all together.

As You can tell, My explanation is far more inept than the vision i have of this, as it is so much bigger than i can explain logically. Suffice it to say, I pray this answers your concern.

Simply put, seven church ages, seven Spirits of God, when they all join together, we have the church of the saints, the fulness of God/Christ. it is a beautiful painting when complete but has taken 2000 years to paint, as we the church are the brushstrokes.

 

[marks]

The Church of Laodicea is a church, A church can only be a church if it is a gathering of Born again believers. Correct? so all the people of the church of Laodicea are born again believers.

This all sounds fine, except for a couple of things. That only a body of born again believers may be called a church, or that only born again believers may be in a church, the Bible doesn't specify that. So for me I set the idea aside until I can confirm whether or not it aligns with Scripture.

Again, Jesus has promised to live in His people, and He asks these in Laodicea to invite Him in. Ergo, He's not already there. Ergo, they are not born again. Ergo, there are some in a church who apparently are not born again.

Now, this is what I read from the Bible. You tell me that I should disregard that because you had a vision.

?

Much love!

 

[marks]

Simply put, seven church ages, seven Spirits of God, when they all join together, we have the church of the saints, the fulness of God/Christ. it is a beautiful painting when complete but has taken 2000 years to paint, as we the church are the brushstrokes.

I hope you don't mind that I break things down into smaller pieces for the purpose of reply, it's easier for me that way to stay focused. Just the same, I appreciate what you write, you clearly have a heart for the message!

On this part, I see 7 churches that existed in Paul's day, 7 churches which will be during the 70th week, I see the lifecycle of churches, the history of the church, these last two more loosely.

And there is much much wisdom we find in these letters, how to and how not to respond so things, so much!

Much love!

 

[marks]

Here is what the Lord showed me. The church of Philadelphia was the church of the open door, They had everything right doctrinally and the presence of God was in the church. This was the fundamentalism of the late seventeen hundreds into the eighteen hundreds.

I see this as "America-centric". This is why I look more at the letters showing the lifecycle of a church maybe more than church history, since these movements begin, build, then wane in different parts of the world at different times.

What happened is that this lack of rebuke led to textualism, which I addressed here earlier and will not repeat, closed the door to the fruit of that right doctrine to blossom. The rigid dispensationalism ousted the holiness movements from these churches, those who were pushing for something holier (godliness), and that door was closed to the Holy Spirit.

And you assume this of me. Why?

And I just caught that you reject dispensationalism, and think that contributes to shutting out the Holy Spirit.

I have to heartily disagree with that. Personally I find that without a good understanding of dispensations in the Bible there can be an awful lot of confusion. And I have no idea why you would thing understanding the dispensations of Scripture would push someone away from holiness.

Much love!

 

[marks]

But none of this can begin until you, me and all the believers in this day stop denying their identity as Laodiceans and embrace this identity and heed those instructions.

As I read your description of the church, and then I read that you want us all to embrace that identity, I have to say, yes, I'm certain there is a lot of that going around. But I think it is serious error to just paint everyone that way. I don't think it's reality, and I don't think it's useful. But that's just me.

There are an awful lot of mature and spiritual Christians, and maybe you need to connect with some of them.

To just tell people, without even knowing the first thing about them other than that they can type, that they are poor and miserable and blind and naked, and if you don't think so you're just in denial, well, if it's true, let it be a a blessing, but when you tell this to someone who is aware of their own relationship with their Creator, who is on a good path, who is mature in the Lord, well, will they disregard all of that because someone comes out of the blue, someone who doesn't even know them, to tell them otherwise?

Much love!

 

[marks]

So We now have a church, of believers with other spirits working in them, but the door of divine revelation being silenced, and drowned out by the noise of "other revelations from other spirits". there is a total lack of discernment as to what is true and from God and what is not. This is post modernism in a nutshell.

In some cases, I expect yes, but certainly certainly not in all!

And really, are you saying, everyone else has got it wrong, but you've got it right?

Much love!

 

[David H.]

Again, Jesus has promised to live in His people, and He asks these in Laodicea to invite Him in. Ergo, He's not already there. Ergo, they are not born again. Ergo, there are some in a church who apparently are not born again.

Again, Laodicea is a church. It says "God knows their works" That they are lukewarm. so they have works but they re lukewarm. This indicates a a gathering of true believers. What i see there is the most seduced church, the church of plenty and ease there, What you are saying is there are no true believers in a church that is prosperous, and they are all false converts, I cannot bring myself to that conclusion. For out of this church come the greatest of the overcomers for they overcome as Christ overcame, being offered the world they reject it (Think back to the temptation of Christ, and the three sins of the lust of the eyes, the lust of the flesh and the pride of life which he overcame.) He went riding in on a donkey and was hailed "blessed is he who comes in the name of the LORD" and the next week he was crucified, buried and resurrected. We who are Laodiceans will overcome in that same manner. That is what it means to be a saint. That is why the church is no longer mentioned in revelation but the saints are.

 

[David H.]

And really, are you saying, everyone else has got it wrong, but you've got it right?

No I am saying we are all in the same boat together.

 

[marks]

What you are saying is there are no true believers in a church that is prosperous, and they are all false converts, I cannot bring myself to that conclusion.

What I'm pointing to is that Jesus tells them He wants in. So He's not already there. These are the sorts of things I pay attention to. It's all valid and meaningful and useful for doctrine.

In this letter Jesus is addressing those who do not have Him inside.

This is a simple a plain thing to me, and I can't overlook it.

Much love!

 

[David H.]

And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent; And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many. Matthew 27:51-53

There is a lot of debate as to who these saints were. Were they Old testament saints? Were they those who believed in Jesus during his ministry but died before Christ enacted the new covenant upon his death? One thing we know is they were resurrected, they were dead already, and rightly understanding the concept of who the saints are will answer these questions. They appeared unto many and they were along with Christ, the firstfruits of the resurrection. Was John the Baptist one of them?