Kenosis False Teaching

[ChristisGod]

Interesting! God is God because He is omniscient?

I'm subtracting nothing. Nothing!

I'm pointing to the Scriptures, and making observations. In one place we're told He emptied Himself, in another place we're told about what that looked like, and in another place we're told that His life is to become ours. That we are to be conformed to Him.

Not as some little deity with omniscience and omnipotence and omnipresence. But as He was, a man who does what the Father does, and speaks what the Father speaks.

God is God because He is. I AM THAT I AM. Tell them I AM has sent you.

I agree . . . Incarnation is not subtraction, but then, I'm not arguing that Jesus lost His omniscience because He incarnated. Rather, He emptied Himself of His omniscience, to live His life as one of us. Overcoming the world, but not by His Own Divine Omnipotence.

"subtract from His Deity which you are doing"

Must I tell you again . . . I fully believe in Jesus' deity? Will you continue to make this false claim against me?

Much love!

God is God and I have given plenty of Scriptures proving all of His Omni Attributes while walking this earth.

No its a true claim.

God IS the Father , Son and Holy Spirit- This One God shares all of the same Divine Attributes.

Your jesus lost those attributes for 33 years, That is a false heretical teaching known as kenosis. The EMPTY god.

Like I said if the Father was not Omni All then by default He would not be God. the same holds true for the Son.

hope this helps !!!

 

[Nancy]

I had to look that up. I didn't know what a cessationist was.

I believe tongues means different languages.
There were a lot of different groups of people gathered together on Pentacost.
And they all heard Peter speak in their own tongue, language.
Some people have a gift of many languages.

Healing I believe has to do with faith. It has to do with like, mind over matter.
I had a toothache once and I was able to push the pain to the other side of my mouth and out my cheek.
I don't think I could cure myself if I had a serious disease. but I never tried.
All I know is I'm still walking and talking and that's a miracle. Praise God!
But sometimes words of comfort can actually make someone feel better.
Then you have doctors and nurses that do healing for a profession.

I don't think prophecy is such a mystery. If you know cycles and understand that history repeats itself,
then in a way you can foretell in general what's going to happen. Everybody here does it all the time.
We are in tune with the ebb and flow and can feel the anxiety, we know something is about to happen.
You go through the bible and over and over, same story, different generation. It's all in there.
Jesus even chided them when He said, you look at the sky and you know what the weather will be,
but you can't look at the times and know what's coming?
The rise and falls of civilizations.. that's why we keep recordings of history. So we know what to watch for.

I don't think the gifts have ended. I think we just put too much emphasis on the "mystery" of those gifts.
Like, only if you were somehow "special" more than others could you participate.
I believe God gave to every man whatever his capacity is.

I can only speak one language. I can make someone laugh or cry.. that's a gift.. making someone smile :)

1Co 12:5 And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.
1Co 12:6 And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.
1Co 12:7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.
1Co 12:8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;
1Co 12:9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;
1Co 12:10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:
1Co 12:11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.

I don't think they've ended.. in fact I think they been working overtime lately.. :)

And what is a miracle?
The same word is used in this parable about the talents:
Mat 25:15 And unto one he gave five talents, to another two, and to another one; to every man according to his several ability; G1411 and straightway took his journey.

Some people even have more than one. Some can talk in languages and translate.. that's helpful.. :)

Thank You Nancy!
HUGS

Good post Ziggy!

"I don't think the gifts have ended. I think we just put too much emphasis on the "mystery" of those gifts.
Like, only if you were somehow "special" more than others could you participate.
I believe God gave to every man whatever his capacity is."

Yeah, agreed...way too much emphasis on the "mystery"...to the detriment of so many other doctrines and teachings and learnings! Lol.
Their is only one thing that is bothersome IMO. And that is our bro's and sis's who think one does not have His Spirit if sensational biblical gifts, such as tongues did not manifest with us. Why the other things are not spoken of...I don't know...handling deadly snakes, drinking poison...nope, just "tongues and "prayer languages" neither of which has been given me. At least not to this point but I sure do know His Spirit has been working in me for some time now. And yes, I def. say a human language one has never spoken before are what the tongues of the bible is talking about.

"I can only speak one language. I can make someone laugh or cry.. that's a gift.. making someone smile :)" <---Ahaha! Same here...and it is nice to make someone laugh and or smile. Could be making their day and...ALWAYS have a smile for everyone you meet and eye contact is also big, IMHO :) <--- See?

 

[ChristisGod]

Look at the pattern of usage of the word in Scripture. Let Scripture interpret Scripture.

Much love!

I do which is why I'm a Trinitarian. By default your view denies the Trinity since God as Triune was not for 33 years and the ETERNAL SON lost His Omni Attributes. You are the one with the contradictory belief about God, not me.

I'm as Orthodox as it gets with the Trinity and Deity of Christ and as I pointed out yesterday you deny the Athanasian Creed with your kenosis view of Christ.

hope this helps !!!

 

[marks]

And you are taking one possible meaning of a word kennao

It looks to me that you are holding to an meaning of the word that doesn't fit the other places the word is used.

Romans 4:14 For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect:

Is this saying faith is made of no reputation, or that faith is made empty?

1 Corinthians 1:17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.

Lest the cross of Christ be made of no reputation? Or made empty of effect?

1 Corinthians 9:15 But I have used none of these things: neither have I written these things, that it should be so done unto me: for it were better for me to die, than that any man should make my glorying void.

Make my glorying of no reputation? OR make my glorying empty?

2 Corinthians 9:3 Yet have I sent the brethren, lest our boasting of you should be in vain in this behalf; that, as I said, ye may be ready:
Lest your boasting be of no reputation? Or lest your boasting be empty?

Much love!

 

[ChristisGod]

It looks to me that you are holding to an meaning of the word that doesn't fit the other places the word is used.

Romans 4:14 For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect:

Is this saying faith is made of no reputation, or that faith is made empty?

1 Corinthians 1:17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.

Lest the cross of Christ be made of no reputation? Or made empty of effect?

1 Corinthians 9:15 But I have used none of these things: neither have I written these things, that it should be so done unto me: for it were better for me to die, than that any man should make my glorying void.

Make my glorying of no reputation? OR make my glorying empty?

2 Corinthians 9:3 Yet have I sent the brethren, lest our boasting of you should be in vain in this behalf; that, as I said, ye may be ready:
Lest your boasting be of no reputation? Or lest your boasting be empty?

Much love!

do you understand how a lexicon works ?

words have a variety of meanings and nuances and the context determines how a given word is used and its meaning. look up erchomai and get back to me.

 

[Ziggy]

Good post Ziggy!

"I don't think the gifts have ended. I think we just put too much emphasis on the "mystery" of those gifts.
Like, only if you were somehow "special" more than others could you participate.
I believe God gave to every man whatever his capacity is."

Yeah, agreed...way too much emphasis on the "mystery"...to the detriment of so many other doctrines and teachings and learnings! Lol.
Their is only one thing that is bothersome IMO. And that is our bro's and sis's who think one does not have His Spirit if sensational biblical gifts, such as tongues did not manifest with us. Why the other things are not spoken of...I don't know...handling deadly snakes, drinking poison...nope, just "tongues and "prayer languages" neither of which has been given me. At least not to this point but I sure do know His Spirit has been working in me for some time now. And yes, I def. say a human language one has never spoken before are what the tongues of the bible is talking about.

"I can only speak one language. I can make someone laugh or cry.. that's a gift.. making someone smile :)" <---Ahaha! Same here...and it is nice to make someone laugh and or smile. Could be making their day and...ALWAYS have a smile for everyone you meet and eye contact is also big, IMHO :) <--- See?

I'm trying to follow this thread because I find it rather fascinating.
And every which way I look I see.. people trying to tempt the Lord into doing things he didn't come here to do.
He was on a mission. His mission didn't include calling down fire from heaven:
Luk 9:54 And when his disciples James and John saw this, they said, Lord, wilt thou that we command fire to come down from heaven, and consume them, even as Elias did?

He didn't come here to Judge:
Jhn 12:47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.

There's a lot of things he didn't come here to do.
I'm sure he could of he if was his will to do so. I mean he walked on water, he calmed the storm, he raised DEAD PEOPLE!!
I'm just saying..
Just because he chose to what's the word.. kenoo his authoratative actions, doesn't mean he didn't have the authority.
It only means that it wasn't on his agenda.... this time..

Next time however...

That's how I understand it.
And I don't go out of my way to pick up deadly snakes or drink poison, just because Jesus said we could
That would be tempting the Lord.
And we saw what happened to Peter when he did that..
I learned that lesson, watching Peter..
Thank You Peter!

HUGS

 

[marks]

do you understand how a lexicon works ?

Why do you ask? Because you have no valid response to my posts?

Much love!

 

[marks]

look up erchomai and get back to me.

We're looking at kenoo, I think.

Let's not change the subject shall we?

Much love!

 

[marks]

It looks to me that you are holding to an meaning of the word that doesn't fit the other places the word is used.

Romans 4:14 For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect:

Is this saying faith is made of no reputation, or that faith is made empty?

1 Corinthians 1:17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.

Lest the cross of Christ be made of no reputation? Or made empty of effect?

1 Corinthians 9:15 But I have used none of these things: neither have I written these things, that it should be so done unto me: for it were better for me to die, than that any man should make my glorying void.

Make my glorying of no reputation? OR make my glorying empty?

2 Corinthians 9:3 Yet have I sent the brethren, lest our boasting of you should be in vain in this behalf; that, as I said, ye may be ready:
Lest your boasting be of no reputation? Or lest your boasting be empty?

Much love!

Faith is made void, or empty.
The cross is emptied of effect.
Glorying becomes empty, meaningless.
Boasting just the same, empty of meaning.

Letting Scripture interpret Scripture is to hold all Scripture in harmony.

He emptied Himself. This is the meaning of the word, and this is how it is used elsewhere also.

Much love!

 

[ChristisGod]

Why do you ask? Because you have no valid response to my posts?

Much love!

lookup your own strongs definition you posted as proof of the various meanings of the word kennao.it proves my point perfectly.

you have no valid response to my argument in Phil 2:5-9 which is why you run away from the passage all the time and have yet yo exegete it for me when I've asked you several times, so why do you keep on avoiding it Mark ?

You sure LOVE to ask all the questions which I have answered yet you refuse to answer my one request which is for you to EXEGETE ( put into your words) the meaning of Phil 2:5-9. I have dome this several times in this thread with numerous posters at their request.

hope this helps !!!

 

[ChristisGod]

We're looking at kenoo, I think.

Let's not change the subject shall we?

Much love!

point being Greek words have various meanings unlike the English words translated.

 

[ChristisGod]

Faith is made void, or empty.
The cross is emptied of effect.
Glorying becomes empty, meaningless.
Boasting just the same, empty of meaning.

Letting Scripture interpret Scripture is to hold all Scripture in harmony.

He emptied Himself. This is the meaning of the word, and this is how it is used elsewhere also.

Much love!

Can you define Co-Equal and Co-Eternal for me relating to the Trinity.

God exists as three persons, is one being, having a single divine nature. The members of the Trinity are co-equal and co-eternal, one in essence, nature, power, action, and will.

What does this mean above ?

Do you agree with it ?

If not why not ?

 

[marks]

And you are taking one possible meaning of a word kennao and building an entire doctrine around that one particular meaning of empty. That is eisegesis and reading your doctrine into the text of Phil 2:5-9. The context clearly says He was Equal with God and then you are saying He emptied His godhead- attributes that make Him God, that is a very poor method of hermenuetics and is exactly how the empty god doctrine of kenosis was developed in the first place.

On the contrary, I'm taking the way this word is used in the Bible, and showing consistency in that usage.

You restate my words incorrectly. I Do Not say that Jesus emptied "His godhead". Those are your words, based on your statement that the God who choses to not use His Omnipotence while being incarnate in flesh for the purpose of living a man's life ceases to be God. I don't believe that is true.

Much love!

 

[marks]

point being Greek words have various meanings unlike the English words translated.

Something I've come to love about Koine Greek is it's specificity. It is so precise I find it extremely beautiful.

Look at the usage of kenoo, for better understanding of what God means when He uses it.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Can you define Co-Equal and Co-Eternal for me relating to the Trinity.

God exists as three persons, is one being, having a single divine nature. The members of the Trinity are co-equal and co-eternal, one in essence, nature, power, action, and will.

What does this mean above ?

Do you agree with it ?

If not why not ?

You quote my post, but you don't respond to it. Does this mean you have no response?

Much love!

 

[BarneyFife]

do you understand how a lexicon works ?

words have a variety of meanings and nuances and the context determines how a given word is used and its meaning. look up erchomai and get back to me.

Your condescending manner is insulting.

 

[ChristisGod]

On the contrary, I'm taking the way this word is used in the Bible, and showing consistency in that usage.

You restate my words incorrectly. I Do Not say that Jesus emptied "His godhead". Those are your words, based on your statement that the God who choses to not use His Omnipotence while being incarnate in flesh for the purpose of living a man's life ceases to be God. I don't believe that is true.

Much love!

The breakdown is the trinity. I stated a new thread for our discussion. Until we can agree on the nature of God then we will not ever agree on the nature of Christ.

I tagged you.

 

[marks]

Its is a flat out denial of the Deity of Christ as a man walking this earth for 33 years. I will go to my grave defending the Truth that Son has ALWAYS had all the divine Attributes ( All the OMNI's)before creation, during His days on earth and for all eternity.

So why didn't Jesus know when He would return? Why was he not able to do many works in Nazareth?

?

 

[ChristisGod]

Your condescending manner is insulting.

As are your drive bye comments without engaging the OP and its discussion. You have a habit of doing that lately.

 

[Ziggy]

So why didn't Jesus know when He would return? Why was he not able to do many works in Nazareth?

?

Is that a real question or are you leading somewhere?
He couldn't heal because they lacked faith.
Maybe his return is based on how fast we come together in unity?
Maybe he has a LOT of patience..
just saying.

I don't know if that was an open question for everyone, but I bit anyways.. :)

:)