King of Tyre or a Supernatural Creature of Darkness

[face2face]

Unless you can produce the "fiery stones" connection....there isn't one.

Nice...you can't see the connection between the Stones on the Breast Plate (as a symbol) and them fiery in appearance? It's beautiful imagery!

 

[face2face]

Unless you can produce the "fiery stones" connection....there isn't one.

Jane, fiery stones because the way they shone when exposed to the brilliance of the Shekinah glory in the sanctuary. They symbolized the twelve tribes of Israel. (Exodus 39:1). The king of Tyre walked in the midst of these stones of fire when he moved among the children of Israel and gained protection from them.

 

[face2face]

Can I ask if these are your personal beliefs, or if you are a collective 'brotherhood' who all share the same ideas and practices?

It's careful reading of the text and understanding the Word of God through His eyes. He uses imagery, types, anti-types, poetic nuances to communicate His hidden wisdom. The truth is many believers don't read with care. You wouldn't see the connection between the stones of the breastplate and them lit by God's glory and how this colorful imagery is the King of Tyre and the blessings he had while trading with Israel.

Just a warning Jane...the more we dig here the more gems we find the less likely you will ever use this section of Scripture to support the false belief of a fallen angel. I will spend a week or so in this section then move on to the next stained Scripture.

 

[face2face]

Cont...

The way God communicates is often lost on us because we don't endeavor to enter His mind and work with the techniques He adopts to teach wisdom. Ezekiel 28 really is a poem about the destruction of Tyre revealed through a number of metaphors, the first of which, is clearly based on the casting out of Adam from paradise.

Ezekiel 28:13 You (King of Tyre) were in Eden, the garden of God.

So here God likens the King of Tyre as one being within Israel (the Garden of God) though like Adam he suffers the same crime! The King of Tyre sought equality with God on account of his own wisdom.

Satirically God says to him in Ezekiel 28:3 Look, you are wiser than Daniel; *no secret is hidden from you

*Even the NET translators note states "The tone here is sarcastic, reflecting the ruler’s view of himself"

Unlike the Lord Jesus Christ the Apostle Paul wrote “he thought it not a prize to be on an equality with God”

1. So you will notice we have the idea of Adam / King of Tyre being cast out of a privileged place
2. You have this further demonstrated with the gems of the breast plate which symbolize the 12 tribes of Israel which for a time he could walk in their midst and trade, but now his protection would be removed.

And all this imagery because the King acted as Eve & Adam in the Garden:

Concerning Eve:

Ezekiel 28:2

‘Your heart is proud and you said, “I am a god
I sit in the seat of gods, in the heart of the seas”—
yet you are a man and not a god, though you think you are godlike"

Compare

Genesis 3:5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods

Concerning Adam:

Adam’s sin caused him to return to dust in the grave Genesis 3:19

In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

King of Tyre is told that the Babylonians “the terrible of the nations” would be the agents of judgment against him “they shall bring thee down to the pit (grave), and thou shalt die the deaths of them that are slain in the midst of the seas” (Ezekiel 28:8)

The Metaphor is continued even further

Tyre is said to be the creation of God.
Adam was created and was innocent.

So figuratively it is said of the King in Ezekiel 28:15, “you were blameless in your ways from the day you were created, till iniquity was found in you”

It must be said, this is some of the most stunning poetic imagery in the Bible and for it to be lost on fellow Christians is a crime in itself.

It goes to show, the Mind of God concerning present day events for the King of Tyre and how they can relate to events past like the Garden of God and the Gems of the Breastplate both revealed in separate ages but brought eloquently together to demonstrate the righteous judgements of Yahweh on a proud King.

 

[Aunty Jane]

you can't see the connection between the Stones on the Breast Plate (as a symbol) and them fiery in appearance? It's beautiful imagery!

It is, if it is confirmed in scripture....without the clear scriptural connection, it’s more conjecture, or a figment of the imagination. This is why I asked you about your connection to a brotherhood who all believe as you do. God does not reveal things to individuals in isolation......can you tell me when he ever did?

Jane, fiery stones because the way they shone when exposed to the brilliance of the Shekinah glory in the sanctuary. They symbolized the twelve tribes of Israel. (Exodus 39:1). The king of Tyre walked in the midst of these stones of fire when he moved among the children of Israel and gained protection from them.

Nice imagery but again there is no scriptural connection mentioned. You are the only person I have ever heard connect these. So who told you that they were connected?

It's careful reading of the text and understanding the Word of God through His eyes. He uses imagery, types, anti-types, poetic nuances to communicate His hidden wisdom. The truth is many believers don't read with care.

I can agree with you there.....but let me explain my reservations.

OK, so I assume that you do not represent a brotherhood who share your beliefs? Do you understand that this basically removes the validity of what you believe? We cannot be Christians in isolation from a brotherhood, and our beliefs, though sincerely held, cannot be the truth if we are the only ones who hold them.

You wouldn't see the connection between the stones of the breastplate and them lit by God's glory and how this colorful imagery is the King of Tyre and the blessings he had while trading with Israel.

I would, if there was a clear biblical connection. I understand ‘types and shadows’ but trying to see them in everything can lead us down rabbit holes that don’t really exist. Not everything in scripture is a type or illustration of something else, even though many are, it is usually made clear in other parts of the Bible because a connection is made.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Just a warning Jane...the more we dig here the more gems we find the less likely you will ever use this section of Scripture to support the false belief of a fallen angel.

The existence of the devil (the first rebel reported in the Bible) and his impact on the human condition is the reason why we are in this mess, and why Jesus came to offer his life as our redeemer.

I can clearly see your sincerity, but I am sorry that I cannot take what you say seriously unless you speak for a brotherhood who all accept what you believe. (1 Corinthians 1:10)
In all their history, God’s worshippers have been provided with teachers and spiritual guides. He has always had his “people”.....Israel were his “people” as descendants of Abraham and subjects of his covenants. God guided their spiritual lives through a duly authorised priesthood.
Israel’s history is more of bad example than a good one, but still God teaches us by showing what not to do, as his worshippers.

When Jesus came on the scene, he created a division among the Jews and suffered at their hands. But he was a teacher and as the son of God, he had divine authority and the power of God’s spirit to lead people who accepted the truth he taught, to transform their beliefs and attitudes accordingly. Those rightly disposed collectively became “Christians” and the one thing that united them was God’s word and the leading of God’s spirit through those who were qualified to be teachers.

When Gentiles were accepted into the Christian congregation, Acts 15:14 says....“Symʹe·on has related thoroughly how God for the first time turned his attention to the nations to take out of them a people for his name.” Can you see that God still has a “people”. But because the devil sowed “weeds” in the same field, we need to keep our wits about us. There are true and false “Christians” in all the world. We need to look for the truth, not just what appeals to us.

Can you also see that individuals who assume the role of “teacher” cannot have the backing of God’s spirit because you cannot enter the “sheepfold” unless you enter by the “door”, who is Jesus Christ. The “sheepfold” is the brotherhood. Collectively they are united in their beliefs and led by God’s spirit.
By their beliefs and conduct, you can see if they are collectively doing what Christ taught, rather than just talking about it. We can examine what they believe and how they practice their Christianity, and make our choices.

When we encounter someone like yourself, who is obviously very sincere and trying to help people appreciate what they have read in the scriptures, we have to stop and ask who you represent and where your beliefs come from. If it’s just you....no offence, but do you see the problem?

 

[face2face]

@Aunty Jane

When a person has a confirmation bias toward a certain doctrine, which in your case is the "idea" that angels can fall and sin, its like God has painted the most beautiful artwork and in one smudging action, its lost on you forever. I sense you can see the Biblical imagery of the Garden and its connection to the King of Tyre, I can see you understand how the stones are used of Israel (and God's presence) and the King's freedom to trade within her camp. But where is your desire to lift your mind on things above? Would you rather seek to know what denomination I'm from - Deuteronomy 29:29 apply's and He reveals His secrets to whom ever He Wills, accept it! There are many things I know about our Heavenly Father and His thinking behind Ezekiel 28 (and many other Scriptures) that you, or your group do not know. I have only revealed a single layer of understanding and in time we shall reveal more. I'm happy for you to test these Scripturally based interpretations and whether you take or leave them is up to you!...but it's spiritual naivety to think any one body has absolute truth...who ever taught you that was in error.

If you accepted the imagery as its presented, what do you think is the most important truth God base's His actions on concerning Israel and her neighbors? It's fundamental in understanding Ezekiel 28 and without this key, God's thinking is not fully known, and all you have, is as you said "nice imagery".

Your knowledge and understanding of Yahweh is being tested.

F2F

 

[face2face]

Cont...

So we all know that Tyre was a sea power, not a military one. Israel because of the nature of their coastline were never attacked from the sea. The truth is the reverse, it was Tyrus who enjoyed the protection of Israel under David and Solomon.

Having discussed this section with many supernatural satan believers it becomes impossible for them to provide a working context within the story of Ezekiel 28. As we have seen some will run off to other parts of the Bible in a desperate attempt to prove its existence, only to find the section they ran to, is also misrepresented and misinterpreted.

Not only does the imagery fit the stories circumstances, it speaks to other well known Scriptures such as the Garden of Eden and The Breastplate, and soon we will see even the geography will further support the interpretation.

The Revised Standard Version makes the matter perfectly clear and maintains consistently the metaphor of “Paradise Lost” i.e Adam cast out - King of Tyre cast out.

“With an anointed guardian cherub I placed you; you (King) were on the holy mountain of God; in the midst of the stones of fire you walked”

Lets talk about the Mountain of God which is further imagery.

Tyrus was set in the Mount of God under the protection of the same angelic host (or cherubim) which protected Israel.
(highlighted and bold to show importance!)

So what does it mean?

This holy mountain is Mount Zion the future site of God's house of prayer for all people. (Isaiah 2:2, Isaiah 2:3; Isaiah 56:7 and so on).

Now some religious communities such as the JW's have tried to force fallen angel theology onto this text with disastrous results. Here they try to suggest God is speaking of the mountain being symbolically in heaven, which of course does not fit the context at all. The more we dig, the more clearer it becomes, the imagery is all speaking of actual events happening on earth between Tyrus & Israel completely and utterly.

The Story & Prophetical Judgements on the King and Tyrus confirmed by the imagery.

Tyrus & her King had honoured the God of Israel, she enjoyed His favour and occupied a part of the paradise of Israel. The twelve tribes of Israel were the precious gems of Eden and Tyrus walked amongst them for they were the stones of fire as per Ezekiel 28:13; they are the gems which Aaron bore upon his heart. The lesson of the gems is easy... Aaron was to reveal God to Israel in character...and the tribal gems upon his heart were indicative of the affection and grace which God bestowed upon His people. In a figure as subtle as that used by any modern poet, Tyrus is said to enjoy that same beneficence and fellowship with Israel.

“in the midst of the stones of fire you walked”

 

[face2face]

But...

Ezekiel 28:16 “In the abundance of your trade you were filled with violence, and you sinned; so I cast you as a profane thing from the mountain of God, and the guardian cherub drove you out from the midst of the stones of fire.”

Compare

Genesis 3:24 When he drove the man out, he placed on the eastern side of the orchard in Eden angelic cherub who used the flame of a whirling sword to guard the way to the tree of life.

Honestly, you would need to be in total ignorance of these truths if you could not see the connection God is making between the King of Tyre and Adam & Eve in this incredible chapter. In fact, I would go so far to say, if a person choose to ignore this and force some false notion of fallen angels on the text when the evidence is so overwhelmingly clear, that person is worthy of God's judgement being upon them...if it was willful ignorance.

It is important to remember that this poem in Ezekiel 28 was addressed to the captivity of Israel at Chebar!

Why is this information important you think?

Now we are looking at the relevance to the first listeners of the text (important to always do this with your Bible reading)

 

[face2face]

I would say that it’s solely about the human king Tyre. After all, you won’t really find any Jewish scholars ( faith not lineage ) to promote
The concept of Satan as a enemy. What I see is symbolism being used to link back to the general concept of rebellion in the creation tale. They are hyperlinking back to the earlier folklore.

Correct.

with that said I think they are also sharing prophecies about the rebellion that’s kicking up in the heavens. Such as when we read it Michael battling the “princes” of other nations. Lot of this ties into the heavenly host and how Yahweh set up angels to help govern the lands. It’s a pretty in-depth study that I don’t have time for at the moment to dive into but there is a lot of fantastic info out there.

We will eventually get to the figurative language used in the apocalypse, but for now, to prove the OT has no such creature is sufficient and to restore the beautiful meaning of His imagery, is in essence the work being under taken here.

Thanks for your comment.

 

[face2face]

My point is neither the prophecies of Isaiah 14 nor Ezekiel 28 are talking about Satan. Lucifier defeated the King of Tyre, and Jesus said Satan cannot cast out Satan.

Point noted though not in a way I would see the text proving that truth.
Next stop will be Isaiah 14, after we finish opening the Word to His Light in Ezekiel 28.

 

[Skovand1075]

I definitely think we see Satan there, but he’s not yet the enemy he becomes in the New Testament. But we can see friction in the heavenly realm in a few places.

1.
In genesis we read of the mythological Enochian angel fall. Though I don’t believe it’s real , I believe it’s alluding to friction between the heavenly and the earthly.

2.
Daniel 10:13
New American Standard Bible

13 But the prince of the kingdom of Persia was standing in my way for twenty-one days; then behold, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me, for I had been left there with the kings of Persia.

in that verse we read of Michael whose called his angel essentially having issues with two other angels. So while an all out war is not happening, it seems the Heavenly Host is growing divided.

All of this seems to come fruition in the New Testament. In revelation 12 we read of Satan trying to kill Jesus as a baby and upon failing a war is launched and he’s cast to earth and knows his time is short.

I believe that’s all symbolism for King Herod trying to kill Jesus. I believe Satan was behind that. It launched a way and Satan lost and was cast down, hence Jesus seeing him fall like lightening.

I also think that’s why you don’t read it demonic possession in the tanakh. You only read of Yahweh sending deceitful tormenting spirits. But in the epistles and gospels we read of constant demonic activity.

 

[Aunty Jane]

When a person has a confirmation bias toward a certain doctrine, which in your case is the "idea" that angels can fall and sin, its like God has painted the most beautiful artwork and in one smudging action, its lost on you forever.

Do you have a confirmation bias against it?
What does the rest of scripture say about the existence of satan the devil and those of his angelic ‘cohorts’ who followed him into rebellion? They have a place prepared by God from their beginning to bring them to justice....and Jesus will make sure that all rebels will join satan and his demons in this place of eternal annihilation.

Concerning the "sheep and the goats" Jesus will say...
“...to those on his left: ‘Go away from me, you who have been cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the Devil and his angels . . . .These will depart into everlasting cutting-off, but the righteous ones into everlasting life.” (Matthew 25:41, 46)
Are these creatures mythological? Jesus doesn’t think so.....
When a legion of demons had possessed a man, they begged Jesus to send them into a herd of swine and when he did, they drove the entire herd off a cliff. (Mark 5:1-13)
Are these mythical creatures? How do 2,000 pigs get to jump off a cliff into the sea and drown of their own volition?

Can free willed spirit beings fall? Yes they can...and they did, just like the free willed humans did. Revelation20:1-3 tells us that there is an “abyss” in which the devil and his demons will be imprisoned in order for the Kingdom of God to undo all the damage that the rebellion in Eden caused to all of us. A thousand years of God's Kingdom rule will see what Jesus said in prayer, come to pass.....God's will can then be "done on earth as it is in heaven".

Do you understand the implications of God giving his intelligent creatures free will?
It was intended as a gift, but abuse turned it into a curse.

All was well in heaven until God decided to bring about material creation. No angel had rebelled until then because there were no inferior creatures in existence. If the original angel who made himself “satan the devil” was discontented with his lot, he had no real way to express it. If he desired the worship that belonged to his God, then how could his fellow angels worship him if they were his equals? He could be their leader, but not their god.

With the creation of humankind, the situation changed completely. As a powerful spirit creature, satan could get worship from these lesser beings and become a “god” to them.... but first he had to separate them from their Creator. He was right there in the garden as a guardian (a covering cherub) and plotted his course to gain what he desired. When he told the woman that she would be “like God”, he was really expressing his own desire to be “like God” and have the humans worship him by doing his bidding.

This is the Bible’s narrative from the beginning. Without satan there would have been no rebellion among the humans, and no need for God to send his Christ to rescue them.
We see from the account of Job, what satan is capable of doing to a human being, and why he would choose to make them suffer.

Job actually represented the entire human race because...."The Lord said to Satan, “Have you considered My servant Job? For there is no one like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man fearing God and turning away from evil. And he still holds firm to his integrity, although you incited Me against him to ruin him without cause.” 4 Satan answered the Lord and said, “Skin for skin! Yes, all that a man has, he will give for his life. 5 However, reach out with Your hand now, and touch his bone and his flesh; he will curse You to Your face!” 6 So the Lord said to Satan, “Behold, he is in your power, only spare his life.”

What do you see there? Satan said "all that a man has, he will give for his life"....he didn't say "everything Job has"....so Job was representing the whole of humanity, showing that no matter what the devil does to us, we will not blame God, abandon him, or curse him. Throughout his trials Job left himself in God's hands, remaining faithful without knowing why he was being targeted. We do know.

 

[Aunty Jane]

where is your desire to lift your mind on things above? but rather you want to know what denomination I'm from - Deuteronomy 29:29 apply's and He reveals His secrets to whom ever He Wills, accept it!

My mind has always been on "things above".....but I think you missed the point about your religious views....it wasn't about your 'denomination' per se, but about where your views come from. If they are yours alone, you can be sure that they are not from God because he doesn't work that way.

He has always provided teachers for his "people", confirmed by the experience of the Ethiopian Eunuch to whom Phillip was directed.
Acts 8:21-36...
"But an angel of the Lord spoke to Philip, saying, “Get ready and go south to the road that descends from Jerusalem to Gaza.” This is a desert road.) 27 So he got ready and went; and there was an Ethiopian eunuch, a court official of Candace, queen of the Ethiopians, who was in charge of all her treasure; and he had come to Jerusalem to worship, 28 and he was returning and sitting in his chariot, and was reading Isaiah the prophet. 29 Then the Spirit said to Philip, “Go up and join this chariot.” 30 Philip ran up and heard him reading Isaiah the prophet, and said, “Do you understand what you are reading?” 31 And he said, “Well, how could I, unless someone guides me?” And he invited Philip to come up and sit with him."
Reading the Bible on your own will not allow anyone to arrive at the truth....God provides his teachers who will all impart just one truth. (Ephesians 4:11-16) That's why Jesus sent his disciples out to preach....he taught them just one message, and they were to teach that to others. (Matthew 10:11-14)

We cannot be "Christians in isolation" because we have to meet regularly with like-minded ones as Paul said in Hebrews 10:24-25..."and all the more as you see the day drawing near". That "day" is nearer now than it has ever been.

There are many things I know about our Heavenly Father and His thinking behind Ezekiel 28 (and many other Scriptures) that you, or your group do not know. I have only revealed a single layer of understanding and in time we shall reveal more. I'm happy for you to test these Scripturally based interpretations and whether you take or leave them is up to you!...but it's spiritual naivety to think any one body has absolute truth...who ever taught you that was in error.

Do you know how many people say that they know things that God has revealed to them personally? It is very noble of you to want to share your knowledge, but unless God has revealed those things to others, how do you confirm that they are not just your own thoughts, or guided by other forces?

If you accepted the imagery as its presented, what do you think is the most important truth God base's His actions from concerning Israel and her neighbors? It's fundamental in understanding Ezekiel 28 and without this key, God's thinking is not fully known and all you have is as you said is "nice imagery".

I can only ask what is the 'big picture' for you F2F? Why are we here? What is the meaning of this life, and what is God going to do about fixing it? What do we have to look forward to? That is the most important truth that anyone can have.....the rest is just details.

Your knowledge and understanding of Yahweh is being tested.

That goes for all of us....we are again living in a judgment period, "just like the days of Noah".....(Matthew 24:37-39)
Jesus will be the judge and his decision is final....no second chances, any more than the people of Noah's day had second chances. Once the door of opportunity was closed, there was nothing more to be said. It wasn't Noah who closed the door of the ark.

 

[face2face]

I definitely think we see Satan there, but he’s not yet the enemy he becomes in the New Testament. But we can see friction in the heavenly realm in a few places.

1.
In genesis we read of the mythological Enochian angel fall. Though I don’t believe it’s real , I believe it’s alluding to friction between the heavenly and the earthly.

2.
Daniel 10:13
New American Standard Bible

13 But the prince of the kingdom of Persia was standing in my way for twenty-one days; then behold, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me, for I had been left there with the kings of Persia.

in that verse we read of Michael whose called his angel essentially having issues with two other angels. So while an all out war is not happening, it seems the Heavenly Host is growing divided.

All of this seems to come fruition in the New Testament. In revelation 12 we read of Satan trying to kill Jesus as a baby and upon failing a war is launched and he’s cast to earth and knows his time is short.

I believe that’s all symbolism for King Herod trying to kill Jesus. I believe Satan was behind that. It launched a way and Satan lost and was cast down, hence Jesus seeing him fall like lightening.

I also think that’s why you don’t read it demonic possession in the tanakh. You only read of Yahweh sending deceitful tormenting spirits. But in the epistles and gospels we read of constant demonic activity.

@Aunty Jane, this type of post is why its so important to enter the Word of God and not force non Biblical notions to it. I don't know this person but I know they have no desire for finding God's truth. Like MattG and many others here they only want to regurgitate what their teachers have heard pertetuating error from one person to the next. It's rife in this forum and others. How hard is to find someone who can speak to God's Word in the way He would have us do? Early on, I could see you had the skills to examine the text in an honest and sincere way, though I appreciate you have inherited doctrines which need testing. We will see.

 

[face2face]

Do you have a confirmation bias against it?

confirmation bias is the tendency to process information by looking for, or interpreting, information that is consistent with one’s existing beliefs. In your case when you look at Ezekiel 28 all you can see is fallen angel theology even though its not there. All I am doing is being honest with this text - I see your comment is rather dishonest, because you fully know my addenda is to seek the truth of the text, which we are currently in the process of doing, and I am not out to disprove false doctrine but to reveal the true teaching which God had intended for you to know (the outcome may be the rejection of a false doctrine). If I was trying to prove a preconceived notion such as saying the King of Tyre is a fallen angel, even at the cost of doing the Scripture harm, then you could ask that question.

What does the rest of scripture say about the existence of satan the devil and those of his angelic ‘cohorts’ who followed him into rebellion? They have a place prepared by God from their beginning to bring them to justice....and Jesus will make sure that all rebels will join satan and his demons in this place of eternal annihilation.

Here is exactly what I've been saying. We all know you cannot prove your theology from Ezekiel 28 so what is the next best approach? I'll take him to other passages!

Firstly your credibility lessens because you cannot expound Ezekiel 28 with clarity and secondly by taking a machine gun approach you will scatter Scriptural references almost in an effort to overwhelm him with the share weight of evidence. It wont work Jane...not on me! I am not satisfied with your church dogma and never will be.

I will leave the rest of your post and put it down as a distraction from the task at hand.

 

[face2face]

I can only ask what is the 'big picture' for you F2F? Why are we here? What is the meaning of this life, and what is God going to do about fixing it? What do we have to look forward to? That is the most important truth that anyone can have.....the rest is just details..

The most important truth to God in Ezekiel 28 which was the question asked, is a very big picture Jane!

A question you could ask of God from Ezekiel 28 is why provide the King of Tyre and Tyrus such incredible protection? And on what basis are they worthy?

Genesis 12:3:
I will bless those who bless you, but the one who treats you lightly I must curse, and all the families of the earth will bless one another by your name.”

God blessed the house of Potiphar because of Joseph. The LORD blessed the Egyptians house for Joseph's sake; and the blessing of the LORD was upon all that he had in the house, and in the field. (Genesis 39:5).

In the same way Tyre was "covered" by Israel, however as soon as the King of Tyre believe himself to be a god and filled up his storehouses with riches he lost the blessing of Gods promise and received a curse.

God is always working from His promise's Jane, and never ceases to bring them into remembrance and if you approached this section of Scripture with hand on heart, stating you knew God, you should know this rather than running off on some fallen angel fairy tale, which is nowhere to be found.

 

[face2face]

But...

It is important to remember that this poem in Ezekiel 28 was addressed to the captivity of Israel at Chebar!

Why is this information important you think?

Now we are looking at the relevance to the first listeners of the text (important to always do this with your Bible reading)

How did this text in Ezekiel benefit of the listeners?

No one knows if this message was sent to the King of Tyre and in many's ways its not important because God had made up His mind and His judgements were set.

For me the exhortation to the Israelite's is extremely powerful and I wonder if you can see it?

Tyre had been cast out of Israel’s own paradise by their cherubim. What of their own plight? Were they not themselves cast out as profane by the cherubim whom Ezekiel had seen in the vision destroying Jerusalem?

The question which should have been upon their lips was this: “Must we too as a nation be brought down to the pit to die the death of the uncircumcised, the death of the unregenerate Gentile races?”

The prophetic Word went forth of Israel and Tyre and the big picture continues to play out before us as it did for Israel, Tyrus and Assyria

Yahweh is a universal God and He judges all nations. Not only so, but He is creator of them as He was of Adam, but iniquity is found in them and He removes them utterly so that they have no abiding place in His purpose.

Tyrus is a perfect example of that.

F2F

 

[Aunty Jane]

Here is exactly what I've been saying. We all know you cannot prove your theology from Ezekiel 28 so what is the next best approach? I'll take him to other passages!

Since the Bible is one book with one author using different 'secretaries' over a long period of time, consulting other scripture reinforces what is being said. What did Jesus answer when he was tempted by the devil? "it is written"...the Bible was his backup. Each temptation was countered with a scripture.
Was Jesus tempted by a fallen angel? Who do you think satan is? A figment of Jesus' imagination?

Firstly your credibility lessens because you cannot expound Ezekiel 28 with clarity and secondly by taking a machine gun approach you will scatter Scriptural references almost in an effort to overwhelm him with the share weight of evidence. It wont work Jane...not on me! I am not satisfied with your church dogma and never will be.

It might not work for you, but on these forums are many readers who never post. It is good to cover points of interest so that a wider view of the topic can be evaluated. Using other scripture to clarify a point is valuable as supporting evidence. All pertain to the topic in a related way.

You keep saying that satan is not a fallen angel, so I want to know who it is that is addressed by that name in the scriptures? Who was it that tempted Eve in the garden? Who is it that is misleading the entire inhabited earth? (1 John 5:19) Who is it that goes into the abyss for the thousand years of Jesus reign? (Revelation 20:1-3) Who is it that goes into the "lake of fire" "reserved for the devil and his angels" to be forever destroyed?
Can you answer me please? We know who you don't think he is.....so who is he?

God is always working from His promise's Jane, and never ceases to bring them into remembrance and if you approached this section of Scripture with hand on heart, stating you knew God, you should know this rather than running off on some fallen angel fairy tale, which is nowhere to be found.

OK what fairy tale is this...?
Revelation 12:7-12...
"And there was war in heaven, Michael and his angels waging war with the dragon. The dragon and his angels waged war, 8 and they did not prevail, and there was no longer a place found for them in heaven. 9 And the great dragon was thrown down, the serpent of old who is called the devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him. 10 Then I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying,

“Now the salvation, and the power, and the kingdom of our God and the authority of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brothers and sisters has been thrown down, the one who accuses them before our God day and night. 11 And they overcame him because of the blood of the Lamb and because of the word of their testimony, and they did not love their life even when faced with death. 12 For this reason, rejoice, you heavens and you who dwell in them. Woe to the earth and the sea, because the devil has come down to you with great wrath, knowing that he has only a short time.” (NASB)

If mention of this fallen angel is nowhere to be found, then please explain what John clearly stated here concerning him....

 

[Skovand1075]

@Aunty Jane, this type of post is why its so important to enter the Word of God and not force non Biblical notions to it. I don't know this person but I know they have no desire for finding God's truth. Like MattG and many others here they only want to regurgitate what their teachers have heard pertetuating error from one person to the next. It's rife in this forum and others. How hard is to find someone who can speak to God's Word in the way He would have us do? Early on, I could see you had the skills to examine the text in an honest and sincere way, though I appreciate you have inherited doctrines which need testing. We will see.

Actually I’m just not dumb. That’s the only difference. I don’t have this tiny fragile echo chamber style faith. I know more than 6th grade science and I don’t have to make up history.