King of Tyre or a Supernatural Creature of Darkness

[face2face]

Since the Bible is one book with one author using different 'secretaries' over a long period of time, consulting other scripture reinforces what is being said. What did Jesus answer when he was tempted by the devil? "it is written"...the Bible was his backup. Each temptation was countered with a scripture.

Was Jesus tempted by a fallen angel? Who do you think satan is? A figment of Jesus' imagination?

Again you grasp clinging to Matthew 4 having only a silent OT with thousand of years without any knowledge of this fallen angel story. Why not embrace the true lessons of Ezekiel 28? Has something there impressed you? Maybe you felt the true inspiration of the Word over what was previously held?

We will get to the NT Jane but as I mentioned earlier, the OT is silent for now. The integrity of Ezekiel 28 has been returned to the hearers and who knows maybe you will be reluctant to make such claims upon it in the future. I will continue with thoughts here but the next Scripture we shall restore is Isaiah 14.

You keep saying that satan is not a fallen angel, so I want to know who it is that is addressed by that name in the scriptures? Who was it that tempted Eve in the garden?

Genesis 3:1 Now the serpent was more shrewd than any of the wild animals that the Lord God had made.

This is not enough Jane?

Who is it that is misleading the entire inhabited earth? (1 John 5:19)

The whole world Jane! What has power over the whole world? Surely you have read of it many times and seen it personified hundreds of times? (shaking my head in disbelief!) Hebrews 2:14

Who is it that goes into the abyss for the thousand years of Jesus reign? (Revelation 20:1-3) Who is it that goes into the "lake of fire" "reserved for the devil and his angels" to be forever destroyed? Can you answer me please? We know who you don't think he is.....so who is he?

In short he or she is whoever the context of that Scripture teaches - in Ezekiel 28 we learned the context was King of Tyre and Tyrus. If you take me to another section of Scripture we need to apply the same principles of exegesis you have seen in this consideration.

Here is an example for you to ponder:

1 Timothy 3:11 Likewise also their wives must be dignified, not slanderous, temperate, faithful in every respect. and good managers of their children and their own households.

The word slanderers there is the word diabolos and is in most cases translated Devil.

1. Why did the translators not assign Devils to that text?
2. Who is the context of this verse speaking to?

So here it is as it would normally be translated:

1 Timothy 3:11 Likewise also their wives must be dignified, not devils, temperate, faithful in every respect. and good managers of their children and their own households.

Lets assume, as you do, in painting everything you read with the fallen angel brush... that they did translate it this way above...what damage would you confirmation bias do to the text? A lot right! You and I both know what you would do in your mind and it would be wrong.

The truth Jane, is being a slanderer is a human fleshly trait and has nothing to do with your supernatural creature of darkness. But what does this do for your understanding of diabolos?

To be honest Jane - I could do this for ever and a day and still not get any acknowledgement from you. I need to press on with Isaiah 14 because removing fallen angel theology from the OT seriously weakens your false position on this subject AND in the process we restore the true meaning of the text which is most important to me.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Again you grasp clinging to Matthew 4 having only a silent OT with thousand of years without any knowledge of this fallen angel story.

What makes you assume that the OT is silent with a view to the one called “the adversary”?
An adversary is an enemy that contends with or resists; an antagonist or opponent. The Hebrew word for “adversary” (tsar) comes from a root meaning “harass; show hostility to.” (Numbers 25:18; Psalms 129:1)
The Greek word an·tiʹdi·kos primarily refers to an “adversary at law” in a legal case (Luke 12:58; Luke 18:3) but it can refer to others who are adversaries, or enemies, as in 1 Peter 5:8.

Satan is mentioned in Job as such an “adversary”. This was a conversation between God and a spirit creature who had noticed Job’s faithfulness and wanted to bring him down....and this was long before Israel became a nation.

In Job 1:6 (from the Jewish Tanakh) it says...
“6 Now the day came about, and the angels of God came to stand beside the Lord, and the Adversary, too, came among them.”
Is this a human being? Or an angel of God taking his place among his fellow angels....bold as brass, and brazenly so, because he is now God’s “adversary”...a fallen angel.

Why not embrace the true lessons of Ezekiel 28? Has something there impressed you? Maybe you felt the true inspiration of the Word over what was previously held?

Apparently Ezekiel 28 is your obsession, but it isn’t mine because the entirety of scripture forms my viewpoint. It tells me things about the devil that I did not learn from Genesis.
The Bible explains itself if you let it......it does not contradict itself.

We will get to the NT Jane but as I mentioned earlier, the OT is silent for now.

Umm, not as silent as you would like it to be it seems.

The integrity of Ezekiel 28 has been returned to the hearers and who knows maybe you will be reluctant to make such claims upon it in the future. I will continue with thoughts here but the next Scripture we shall restore is Isaiah 14.

Interesting choice of words there.... “restore”? You “restore” scripture?
Let’s see where that that one will take us then.....

Genesis 3:1 Now the serpent was more shrewd than any of the wild animals that the Lord God had made.

This is not enough Jane?

You don’t think that angelic creatures can transform themselves into whatever form they wish?
Angels in the scriptures materialised human form to deliver messages to Abraham, Lot, Daniel, and Mary and I am sure that humans have had contact with angels down through history without even knowing it. (Hebrews 13:1-2)

Satan chose to become, or to speak, via a serpent to deceive the woman.....is that what led her to disobey? No creature was harmful in the beginning....not even snakes. He would have seemed harmless to her.

 

[Aunty Jane]

The whole world Jane! What has power over the whole world? Surely you have read of it many times and seen it personified hundreds of times? (shaking my head in disbelief!) Hebrews 2:14

You must shake your head a lot F2F....I don’t think that a lot of people are on your wavelength TBH.

Hebrews 2:14....
“Therefore, since the “young children” are sharers of blood and flesh, he also similarly shared in the same things, so that through his death he might bring to nothing the one having the means to cause death, that is, the Devil”.
How was the devil the one who caused death? He misled the woman into disobedience to God thereby condemning her to death...she in turn lured her husband into disobedience by dividing his loyalties and death resulted for the entire human race from his actions.....that’s how. (Romans 5:12; 1 John 3:8)

In short he or she is whoever the context of that Scripture teaches - in Ezekiel 28 we learned the context was King of Tyre and Tyrus. If you take me to another section of Scripture we need to apply the same principles of exegesis you have seen in this consideration.

Comparing scripture is what I like best, because it always takes me to more research.....I can get lost in it for hours..... I love it.

Here is an example for you to ponder:

1 Timothy 3:11 Likewise also their wives must be dignified, not slanderous, temperate, faithful in every respect. and good managers of their children and their own households.

The word slanderers there is the word diabolos and is in most cases translated Devil.

1. Why did the translators not assign Devils to that text?
2. Who is the context of this verse speaking to?

So here it is as it would normally be translated:

1 Timothy 3:11 Likewise also their wives must be dignified, not devils, temperate, faithful in every respect. and good managers of their children and their own households.

Lets assume, as you do, in painting everything you read with the fallen angel brush... that they did translate it this way above...what damage would you confirmation bias do to the text? A lot right! You and I both know what you would do in your mind and it would be wrong.

You look at scripture through a completely different lens to me. Of course our individual biases will have a bearing on how we read scripture.....let’s take your example here....

The word “devil” means “slanderer” right? Who was the first one mentioned in scripture to slander God by calling him a liar? Hint...it wasn’t Adam. So to call this spirit being a “devil” was in keeping with his actions. He is also called “satan” which means “resister”...so his names are not really “names” but rather descriptions of what he is. His actual name has never been revealed.

The truth Jane, is being a slanderer is a human fleshly trait and has nothing to do with your supernatural creature of darkness. But what does this do for your understanding of diabolos?

I would think that was rather obvious, since Jesus said of the Pharisees...”you are from your father the devil” ....why? Because they emulated him. Everyone who listened to them would “die in their sins” because they did not accept Jesus as their savior. The Pharisees slandered God by slandering his son.
Slander became a fleshly trait but was first seen in the original “slanderer”.

To be honest Jane - I could do this for ever and a day and still not get any acknowledgement from you. I need to press on with Isaiah 14 because removing fallen angel theology from the OT seriously weakens your false position on this subject AND in the process we restore the true meaning of the text which is most important to me.

F2F you are correct.....I have been studying God’s word carefully for 50 years....so I honestly believe that your own position is seriously weakened because you argue against what the scriptures clearly teach regarding the existence of the devil...what a victory it is for him to convince people that he does not even exist....are you a victim?

Please press on to Isaiah 14....I would really like to see where you take that....

 

[face2face]

What makes you assume that the OT is silent with a view to the one called “the adversary”?

An adversary is an enemy that contends with or resists; an antagonist or opponent. The Hebrew word for “adversary” (tsar) comes from a root meaning “harass; show hostility to.” (Numbers 25:18; Psalms 129:1)

The Greek word an·tiʹdi·kos primarily refers to an “adversary at law” in a legal case (Luke 12:58; Luke 18:3) but it can refer to others who are adversaries, or enemies, as in 1 Peter 5:8.

Satan is mentioned in Job as such an “adversary”. This was a conversation between God and a spirit creature who had noticed Job’s faithfulness and wanted to bring him down....and this was long before Israel became a nation.

In Job 1:6 (from the Jewish Tanah) it says...
“6 Now the day came about, and the angels of God came to stand beside the Lord, and the Adversary, too, came among them.”
Is this a human being? Or an angel of God taking his place among his fellow angels....bold as brass, and brazenly so, because he is now God’s “adversary”...a fallen angel.

You have no chance of proving a fallen angel from Job!

Apparently Ezekiel 28 is your obsession, but it isn’t mine because the entirety of scripture forms my viewpoint. It tells me things about the devil that I did not learn from Genesis.

Agree its not your obsession because you have added nothing to this thread in that regard. The interpretation is to perfect for you to contend with so rather than admitting this you run to Revelation or to Job only to do as you would have done with Ezekiel 28.

The rest of your post was just your personal opinions and I cant work with that Jane. You post a section from Job, or Revelation and say "see, it has this word devil or satan therefore it must mean a fallen angel", that's terrible reading of the text and you know it.

Here is a challenge for you while I continue finishing with Ezekiel 28.

Prove to me that the adversary in Job was evil?
Prove to me that the adversary was a fallen angel that sinned?

Let's see how you go!

 

[face2face]

You must shake your head a lot F2F....I don’t think that a lot of people are on your wavelength TBH.

Hebrews 2:14....
“Therefore, since the “young children” are sharers of blood and flesh, he also similarly shared in the same things, so that through his death he might bring to nothing the one having the means to cause death, that is, the Devil”.

How was the devil the one who caused death? He misled the woman into disobedience to God thereby condemning her to death...she in turn lured her husband into disobedience by dividing his loyalties and death resulted for the entire human race from his actions.....that’s how. (Romans 5:12; 1 John 3:8)

It looks like the quote confused you so I'll ask you an easier question.

What has the power of death?

The word “devil” means “slanderer” right? Who was the first one mentioned in scripture to slander God by calling him a liar? Hint...it wasn’t Adam. So to call this spirit being a “devil” was in keeping with his actions. He is also called “satan” which means “resister”...so his names are not really “names” but rather descriptions of what he is. His actual name has never been revealed.

Wow Jane you just totally ignored 1 Timothy 3:11 and went of on a rant! That was another example of confirmation bias! Surely you can read over your above comment and say "boy, I did ignore his point and ran away with it!"

Not only can't you acknowledge the true meaning Ezekiel 28 when I take you to a very simple passage and you fire a bullet that ricochets all over the place, but not in the direction I intended!

Lets do a test shall we Jane?

I will give you another opportunity to redeem yourself in this conversation.

2 Timothy 3:3

3:2 For men will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boastful, arrogant, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, ungrateful, unholy, 3:3 unloving, irreconcilable, slanderers (Devils), without self-control, savage, opposed to what is good,

Why didn't they translate this devils?
Who is it talking about, men of women?

Men are not to be devils? yeah?

F2F you are correct.....I have been studying God’s word carefully for 50 years....so I honestly believe that your own position is seriously weakened because you argue against what the scriptures clearly teach regarding the existence of the devil...what a victory it is for him to convince people that he does not even exist....are you a victim?

Please press on to Isaiah 14....I would really like to see where you take that....

Ha, the irony!
You are changing the meaning of Scripture and I am arguing for it!

Love it.
F2F

 

[face2face]

Just in case you felt God was wrong in using the Garden of God / Garden of Eden metaphor to speak against the King of Tyre, it should be noted He does so against His own people in Hosea 6:7. The northern kingdom about 120 years before Ezekiel’s time was warned that, “They like Adam, have transgressed the covenant, there have they dealt treacherously against me”

The implication was that,like Adam, Israel would be cast out of their inheritance. In Ezekiels time it was Judahs turn to experience the same fall from grace. Under the terms of the covenant of Sinai, the nation had been established in a paradise, hedged about by Yahweh.

It's sad Christians have twisted Ezekiel 28 to construct some erroneous fake doctrine, when all along God was simply using commonly understood imagery, like Genesis 3 & Exodus 28:30, which ironically is called the Breastplate of Judgement!!!

If you are a Gentile and you walk among God's (fiery stones) people you will either receive blessings, or if you defile yourself with riches and exalt yourself as a god - you will lose God's protection and be cast out. In this case Tyrus suffered the same fate as Sodom & Gomorrah Genesis 19:24

The lesson for me - make sure you know the difference between what is holy and what is unholy, otherwise we must be prepared for the consequences.

 

[face2face]

You don’t think that angelic creatures can transform themselves into whatever form they wish?
Angels in the scriptures materialised human form to deliver messages to Abraham, Lot, Daniel, and Mary and I am sure that humans have had contact with angels down through history without even knowing it. (Hebrews 13:1-2)

Satan chose to become, or to speak, via a serpent to deceive the woman.....is that what led her to disobey? No creature was harmful in the beginning....not even snakes. He would have seemed harmless to her.

It appears the Scripture is not enough for you then. Let's break down what you have said.

The blue text is nowhere taught in the Bible, actually 2 Corinthians 11:3 would be the perfect place to provide more information but sadly, it's not there either. What led her to disobey was simply the introduction of the carnal mind, articulated through an animal creature. "More cunning than any of the creatures the Lord God had made" and Paul states don't "let not your minds be led astray!" like Eve with the serpent. Paul understood the first pair needed to be tested, just as we do!

Also did you notice how the Lord Jesus Christ used the connection with Genesis 3:1? The attribute of subtility, shrewdness, or wisdom is commended by the Lord Jesus who advised his disciples to be "as wise as serpents" (Matthew 10:16).

The red text is a meaningless comment because anything which comes from the carnal mind is death and in Romans 8:7 is states very clearly its at enmity with God. Enmity means being hostile.

You have a problem Jane and as we are finding it's confirmation bias and whoever taught you these things it's clear to me you haven't tested them for yourself.

 

[Aunty Jane]

You have no chance of proving a fallen angel from Job!

I believe I already did...since its the scriptures who prove you wrong.

Job 1:6-7 Jewish Tanakh....
"Now the day came about, and the angels of God came to stand beside the Lord, and the Adversary, too, came among them. ווַיְהִ֣י הַיּ֔וֹם וַיָּבֹ֙אוּ֙ בְּנֵ֣י הָֽאֱלֹהִ֔ים לְהִתְיַצֵּ֖ב עַל־יְהֹוָ֑ה וַיָּב֥וֹא גַם־הַשָּׂטָ֖ן בְּתוֹכָֽם:


7 The Lord said to the Adversary, "Where are you coming from?" And the Adversary answered the Lord and said, "From going to and fro on the earth and from walking in it." זוַיֹּ֧אמֶר יְהֹוָ֛ה אֶל־הַשָּׂטָ֖ן מֵאַ֣יִן תָּבֹ֑א וַיַּ֨עַן הַשָּׂטָ֚ן אֶת־יְהֹוָה֙ וַיֹּאמַ֔ר מִשּׁ֣וּט בָּאָ֔רֶץ וּמֵֽהִתְהַלֵּ֖ךְ בָּֽהּ: "

This places "the Adversary" both in heaven among the angels, and walking on the earth. This is no human.

Agree its not your obsession because you have added nothing to this thread in that regard. The interpretation is to perfect for you to contend with so rather than admitting this you run to Revelation or to Job only to do as you would have done with Ezekiel 28.

You are trying to make Ezekiel say what you want it to say....
This is in a debate section, so I will debate what I consider to be in error with scriptural backing. I don’t know of anyone who interprets Ezekiel like you do.....

Again, I have to ask....do you have a brotherhood who agrees with you? If not, then all you are expressing here is your own opinion with no backup whatsoever that your interpretation of it is correct, except in your own mind. That to me would be the first red flag....unless your have a direct line to God that no one else has? Are you special?

The rest of your post was just your personal opinions and I cant work with that Jane.

No irony there....

....what do you think I have to work with...?

You post a section from Job, or Revelation and say "see, it has this word devil or satan therefore it must mean a fallen angel", that's terrible reading of the text and you know it.

What I know, is that you promote an idea that the Bible does not support. I present you with scripture that supports my view that the devil is a real entity, and that he is indeed a fallen angel...the first rebel against the Creator. The demons are also real entities, who are also fallen angels...and Jesus is going to throw them all into an abyss of complete inactivity whilst he brings mankind back to the sinless perfection that they lost in Eden. After the thousand year reign of the Kingdom, satan is released for one final test upon perfected mankind...(Revelation 20:1-3)....and then he and his hordes will end up in the place that God has had prepared for them from the beginning. (Matthew 25:41)

Here is a challenge for you while I continue finishing with Ezekiel 28.

Prove to me that the adversary in Job was evil?

What does the account say?
Job1:8-12...
"Now the Lord said to the Adversary, "Have you paid attention to My servant Job? For there is none like him on earth, a sincere and upright man, God-fearing and shunning evil." חוַיֹּ֚אמֶר יְהֹוָה֙ אֶל־הַשָּׂטָ֔ן הֲשַׂ֣מְתָּ לִבְּךָ֘ עַל־עַבְדִּ֣י אִיּוֹב֒ כִּ֣י אֵ֚ין כָּמֹ֙הוּ֙ בָּאָ֔רֶץ אִ֣ישׁ תָּ֧ם וְיָשָׁ֛ר יְרֵ֥א אֱלֹהִ֖ים וְסָ֥ר מֵרָֽע: "

God had observed that his Adversary had taken note of this most righteous man and was in all probability scheming a way to unravel his faith.

"And the Adversary answered the Lord and said, "Does Job fear God for nothing? טוַיַּ֧עַן הַשָּׂטָ֛ן אֶת־יְהֹוָ֖ה וַיֹּאמַ֑ר הַ֣חִנָּ֔ם יָרֵ֥א אִיּ֖וֹב אֱלֹהִֽים: "

The first challenge was the motivation for Job's faith....satan suggested that it was entirely selfish.....was it?

"10 Haven't You made a hedge around him, his household, and all that he has on all sides? You have blessed the work of his hands, and his livestock has spread out in the land. יהֲלֹֽא אַ֠תָּה (כתיב אַ֠תָּ) שַׂ֣כְתָּ בַֽעֲ֧דוֹ וּבְעַד־בֵּית֛וֹ וּבְעַ֥ד כָּל־אֲשֶׁר־ל֖וֹ מִסָּבִ֑יב מַֽעֲשֵׂ֚ה יָדָיו֙ בֵּרַ֔כְתָּ וּמִקְנֵ֖הוּ פָּרַ֥ץ בָּאָֽרֶץ:

11 But now, stretch forth Your hand and touch all that he has, will he not blaspheme You to Your face?" יאוְאוּלָם֙ שְֽׁלַח־נָ֣א יָֽדְךָ֔ וְגַ֖ע בְּכָל־אֲשֶׁר־ל֑וֹ אִם־לֹ֥א עַל־פָּנֶ֖יךָ יְבָֽרְכֶֽךָּ:"

So the devil challenges God to take away everything he has, and see if he maintains his faith without blaming God for his losses....he is so sure that selfishness will overreach anyone, because that is what happened to him.

"12 Now the Lord said to the Adversary, "Behold, all that he has is in your hands; only upon him do not stretch forth your hand." Now the Adversary left the presence of the Lord."

Now, since God is not unrighteous, he could not bring calamity upon an innocent man.....especially not one who demonstrates in his daily life that he honors God in every way.....so God then hands him over to satan who has no qualms about such things, because God knows that this man's faith is unbreakable. (1 Corinthians 10:13) Reading on in ch 2 we see that Job endured every trial without caving in to satan's attempts to destroy his relationship with his God.

The lesson should not be lost on us.

Prove to me that the adversary was a fallen angel that sinned?

Let's see how you go!

I don't honestly don't think I could prove anything to someone whose eyes and ears are not open. But the readers here (if there are any) might be able to take something away from the discussion....I'll just let the Bible speak for itself.....

 

[face2face]

I believe I already did...since its the scriptures who prove you wrong.

Job 1:6-7 Jewish Tanakh....
"Now the day came about, and the angels of God came to stand beside the Lord, and the Adversary, too, came among them. ווַיְהִ֣י הַיּ֔וֹם וַיָּבֹ֙אוּ֙ בְּנֵ֣י הָֽאֱלֹהִ֔ים לְהִתְיַצֵּ֖ב עַל־יְהֹוָ֑ה וַיָּב֥וֹא גַם־הַשָּׂטָ֖ן בְּתוֹכָֽם:


7 The Lord said to the Adversary, "Where are you coming from?" And the Adversary answered the Lord and said, "From going to and fro on the earth and from walking in it." זוַיֹּ֧אמֶר יְהֹוָ֛ה אֶל־הַשָּׂטָ֖ן מֵאַ֣יִן תָּבֹ֑א וַיַּ֨עַן הַשָּׂטָ֚ן אֶת־יְהֹוָה֙ וַיֹּאמַ֔ר מִשּׁ֣וּט בָּאָ֔רֶץ וּמֵֽהִתְהַלֵּ֖ךְ בָּֽהּ: "

This places "the Adversary" both in heaven among the angels, and walking on the earth. This is no human.

Can you see the way you write and post "removes' the possibility! I do find this a tad amusing Jane.

Here's your problem with assuming its your supernatural creature of darkness.

Nowhere in the entire book does the adversary have any power - at all!!! So unpacking this is rather easy for me.

In Job 2:3 so that you (the adversary) stirred me (Yahweh) up to destroy him (Job) without reason.

Then there is

Job 42:11 which teaches that "ALL" the adversity was initiated by God Himself.

All of Job’s afflictions were controlled by God with great precision the Sabeans, lightning, Chaldeans, tornado, leprosy.

Now that's not a problem for me because I understand the true nature of the adversary but it should be alarming for you!

You are trying to make Ezekiel say what you want it to say....
This is in a debate section, so I will debate what I consider to be in error with scriptural backing. I don’t know of anyone who interprets Ezekiel like you do.....

If this were a debate you would be down on a lot of points because you can only say I think you are wrong but hey "I dont know how to make a fallen angel work in Ezekiel 28 so I'll keep throwing stones!"

At this point Jane you are best to leave Ezekiel 28 & Isaiah 14 alone and maybe focus on your strongest text to prove your demonic creature. :cool:

No irony there....

....what do you think I have to work with...?

Sound Bible reading, clear and concise exposition with relevant Scriptural echoes.

What I know, is that you promote an idea that the Bible does not support. I present you with scripture that supports my view that the devil is a real entity, and that he is indeed a fallen angel...the first rebel against the Creator. The demons are also real entities, who are also fallen angels...and Jesus is going to throw them all into an abyss of complete inactivity whilst he brings mankind back to the sinless perfection that they lost in Eden. After the thousand year reign of the Kingdom, satan is released for one final test upon perfected mankind...(Revelation 20:1-3)....and then he and his hordes will end up in the place that God has had prepared for them from the beginning. (Matthew 25:41)

You know what you have Jane - a pathetic weak adversary who has no power, why?...

Job 1:10 Have you not made a hedge around him and his household and all that he has on every side? You have blessed the work of his hands, and his livestock have increased in the land.

The adversary may who harbored envious thoughts of Job’s prosperity and happiness. Of course that would be a human trait and well, only a human would want to see if Job's faith remains, if God could hurt him a bit!

Don't get me wrong Jane, I see your struggle and its very real. Once you have a mind infected with fallen angel theology it's very hard to remove.

Point 1. Adversary is powerless and possibly envious at the prosperity of Job
Point 2. The adversary is only seen in the first 3 chapters then not a word after that!
Point 3. Neither Job, friends of Job or anyone ever eludes to the adversary (not a single word about the adversary - no Jane not one word!!!)

Also, do you like how God revealed his divine had to him through his suffering - showing Job that He was in control!

1. The Sabeans attack [Man] 3. The Chaldeans attack [Man]

2. The lighting strikes [God] 4. The tornado strikes [God]

Beautiful isn't it Jane?

Four times Jane — “I alone have escaped to tell you.” Job 1:14; Job 1:15; Job 1:16; Job 1:17; Job 1:18

You would need to an absolute numb skull to not see the HAND GOD in that account - ignorance on a whole new level to not see that it was God who was doing it - the signs were there, as they often are for us in our distress and affliction!

But if you think your demonic creature has such amazing precision and is the one behind all these events, you go against the Scripture - not me!

 

[face2face]

So the devil challenges God to take away everything he has, and see if he maintains his faith without blaming God for his losses....he is so sure that selfishness will overreach anyone, because that is what happened to him.

I can see it now...

You have a powerful demonic creature that rules in a fiery place of darkness...meeting with God :

"Please dear God, would yo mind taking away a few things from Job for me, because it seems he has everything he needs in life and well, I think his faith wouldn't hold up if you brought some hardship on him"

And so this demonic being who you believe has been chatting to God in His presence, about Job gets up and returns to his place of darkness having achieved his goal with God.

Ridiculous!

 

[Aunty Jane]

I can see it now...

You have a powerful demonic creature that rules in a fiery place of darkness...meeting with God :

"Please dear God, would yo mind taking away a few things from Job for me, because it seems he has everything he needs in life and well, I think his faith wouldn't hold up if you brought some hardship on him"

And so this demonic being who you believe has been chatting to God in His presence, about Job gets up and returns to his place of darkness having achieved his goal with God.

Ridiculous!

Well one of us is ridiculous....so I'll let the readers here decide for themselves who is more closely following the biblical narrative....OK?

I have completely lost interest in this thread.....carry on.

 

[face2face]

Well one of us is ridiculous....so I'll let the readers here decide for themselves who is more closely following the biblical narrative....OK?

I have completely lost interest in this thread.....carry on.

It's as ridiculous as your theory sounds.

 

[face2face]

Job and adversary discussion started here The Powerless Adversary in Job

 

[face2face]

Unless you can produce the "fiery stones" connection....there isn't one.

My son this morning while discussing the King of Tyre walking through the fiery stones of the breastplate which signified the Kings trade within the camp of Israel and his protection lead me to another thought.

Can you imagine when he entered the Holy of Hollies once per year and the shekinah glory hitting those stone's? Imagine the reflection from the engraved (cherub) golden walls, which were polished like mirrors?

Have you got the picture in your mind?

Now go and read Revelation 4 for me :)

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

What is the broader context of Ezekiel 28?

Ezekiel 28:1 The word of the Lord came to me: of Tyre, ‘This is what the sovereign Lord says:“ ‘Your heart is proud and you said, “I am a god;

Ezekiel 28:11 The word of the Lord came to me: a lament for the king of Tyre, and say to him, ‘This is what the sovereign Lord says:

So the anointed cherub is identified in the passage (and context), not to be a rebel angel but the "king of Tyrus". Again, a high degree of honestly is required to honor the context and it's primary reading. In addition to this fact Ezekiel 26 & 27 are prophecies concerning the coming destruction of the city of Tyre.

I've heard it said by a fellow Christian that King of Tyre is not a man but actually Satan himself disguised as the King of Tyre. This is the first time I've heard this "theory" so thought it best to use this section as a means of teaching Christians how to interpret the Bible text rather than forcing ideas and notions upon it.

First and most obvious point is the words satan, fallen angel and devil are nowhere found in the chapter so straight away from a satan believers viewpoint their argument is inferred.

However, there is some beautiful imagery in the chapter which we need to explore if we are to open its light.

Human sin and imperfection were, preceded by sin and imperfection in the spirit realm, as Jesus’ words at John 8:44 and the account in chapter 3 of Genesis reveal. The dirge recorded at Ezekiel 28:12-19, though directed to the human “king of Tyre,” evidently parallels the course taken by the spirit son of God who first sinned. The pride of “the king of Tyre,” his making himself ‘a god,’ his being called a “cherub,” and the reference to “Eden, the garden of God,” certainly correspond to Biblical information concerning Satan the Devil, who became puffed up with pride, is linked to the serpent in Eden, and is called “the god of this system of things.”(1Timothy 3:6; Genesis 3:1-5, 14, 15; Revelations 12:9; 2Corinthians 4:4)

 

[face2face]

certainly correspond to Biblical information concerning Satan the Devil, who became puffed up with pride, is linked to the serpent in Eden, and is called “the god of this system of things.”(1Timothy 3:6; Genesis 3:1-5, 14, 15; Revelations 12:9; 2Corinthians 4:4)

Sorry Barney the thread has already more than established it's context only relates to the King of Tyre. The "god" of this system of things is the world and everything in it!

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

Sorry Barney the thread has already more than established it's context only relates to the King of Tyre. The "god" of this system of things is the world and everything in it!

What I said is true, people can believe or disbelieve it.

 

[face2face]

What I said is true, people can believe or disbelieve it.

It's not about that, the Scripture proves what is true, not peoples opinions.

Here is a logical question.

The OT is silent on this fallen angel theology - can you explain why God would wait for an obscure prophecy about an fairly insignificant King of a very small country residing near Israel to introduce your evil being?

And what purpose does this being play out in the story?

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

It's not about that the Scripture proves what is true not peoples opinions.

Here is a logical question.

The OT is silent on this fallen angel theology - can you explain why wait for an obscure prophecy about an fairy insignificant King of a very small country residing near Israel to introduce your evil being?

It was Satan the Devil that caused that serpent to talk and seduce Eve, for a mere serpent could not talk and act out a seductive course of action itself. It was under invisible control. The invisible one that directed the serpent made himself Satan the Devil by the course of opposition and slander against God that he caused the serpent to take. This invisible spirit had been created a perfect, holy, spirit son of God. Being put in touch with the paradise garden of Eden and its human inhabitants, he saw an opportunity to make himself a mimic god and to capture control over mankind. (Ezekiel 28:13-17) Rebelling in his own heart against his very Creator, he mapped out his plan of action. He did not himself materialize, but used a serpent in Eden. By it he talked, not to the man Adam, but to the woman Eve, to turn her into rebellion against God and to use her to work on Adam to do the same thing.

When Satan approached Eve (through the speech of the serpent), he actually challenged the rightfulness and righteousness of YHWH God sovereignty. He intimated that God was unrightfully withholding something from the woman; he also declared that God was a liar in saying that she would die if she ate the forbidden fruit. Additionally, Satan made her believe she would be free and independent of God, becoming like God. By this means this wicked spirit creature raised himself higher than God in Eve’s eyes, and Satan became her god, even though Eve, at the time, apparently did not know the identity of the one misleading her. By his action he brought man and woman under his leadership and control, standing up as a rival god in opposition to YHWH God.(Genesis 3:1-7)

The original name of the angel who became Satan is unknown. The terms “Satan” and “Devil” mean “Resister” and “Slanderer.” In some respects, Satan’s course parallels that of the ancient king of Tyre. (Ezekiel 28:12-19) Both started out faultless in their ways but became victims of their own haughtiness.

 

[face2face]

It was Satan the Devil that caused that serpent to talk and seduce Eve, for a mere serpent could not talk and act out a seductive course of action itself.

Show me the verse?
All its states is the serpent was more cunning from all the animals the Lord God had made.
Sorry to cut you off on your first sentence but I'm guessing you will have a hard time proving a fallen angel from Gen 3.
F2F