Kolasis - William Barclay

[The Learner]

That's a good observation.
I had to confront this issue. I didn't want to give up eternal life just to debunk the hell doctrine, but there it was.
What to do, what to do... ???

Then I realized that one age follows another.
The verse then limits the age of correction and restoration to one age.
And after that one age follows the previous one. Solved.

Which probably makes more sense in terms of tracking a history in eternity.
Referring to what happened in a certain age.

/

I guess it is to each their own understanding friend.

 

[The Learner]

book mark

 

[FaithWillDo]

Hi Joe, My comments on Matt 25:46 is based on many Greek Scholars. I even took Greek at Univeristy levels.

A Grammar of the Greek New Testament in the Light of Historical Research​

Eugene A. Nida Nida Institute | American Bible Society
Dr. Dan Wallace
historical Truth Magazine

Category:Scholars of Koine Greek - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Leading biblical Greek scholar speaks about faith and work

I think that pastors need to know some of the basics of personal finance and plan for their future

www.christianpost.com

Oh, time for me to cook dinner. Later all

Dear Learner,
Here is what you said:
Matt 25:46, if one limits the time for punishment, based on the Greek Grammar they also limit the time peroid for Life too.

Here is the verse again:

Mat 25:46 And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during.'

The verse is contrasting what happens between two groups of people (the Elect and the lost) during the final age. It is silent on what happens to either group outside of that age.

For the lost during the final age, they will be judged by the law which will punish them for the sins they've committed. Then, from the verse below, we can know that their punishment will end after they have paid the "last penny":

Luke 12:59 I tell you, you will not get out until you have paid the last penny.”

For the Elect during the final age, they will have life in the Kingdom of Heaven. Then, from the verse below, we can know that after the final age ends, they will continue to have life:

John 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

Scripture teaches its truth "here a little and there a little" (Isa 28:9-12). After those pieces are assembled, the truth is revealed. Since scripture teaches in this manner, we must learn not to add additional information to what a verse actually teaches. We must look to other scripture for that additional understanding.

Finally, to say that Mat 25:46 limits life to the final age just because punishment is limited to that age is unsound reasoning. How one understands the Greek language really has nothing to do with it. What does play a key role in how a person understands Mat 25:46 is the person's world paradigm. If a person believes in the Doctrine of Hell, they are going to shape scripture to make it conform to that doctrine. That is what you are doing with Mat 25:46. I have seen many other people do it to verses like these listed below:

Rom 5:18 so then as it was by one offence towards all men to condemnation, so by one righteousness towards all men for justification of life. 19 For as indeed by the disobedience of the one man the many have been constituted sinners, so also by the obedience of the one the many will be constituted righteous.

Phi 2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee shall bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; 11 and that every tongue shall confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

1Tim 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior; 4 who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 6 who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

When these people still insist that Christ will not save all mankind, I will sometimes ask how can that be the case in light of what these verses clearly state? They usually don't respond but a few will. Those that respond have some very creative explanations on why these verses don't actually teach what they clearly say. They will then call this process of interpretation "exegesis" and tell me that I my exegesis is very lacking. But from what I can tell, their exegesis is nothing more than a process of the carnal mind which makes scripture conform to what they have been previously been taught in the apostate church.

Joe

 

[St. SteVen]

book mark

https://soundcloud.com/user-71329120%2Fbookmark

Title: Bookmark
Track time: 03:48 Tempo: 120 BPM

Verse 1
Thoughts today - like a stack of books
Stories never finished
Dig through the pile - flip to a page
Fever now diminished

Chorus
A bookmark on my mind;
A quote without citation
Did I get it right?
Quell my aggravation

Verse 2
Weeks go by - maybe was a year
Up a ladder to the top shelf
That dusty book - in the corner
When I lay my hands on it - I'll calm myself

Chorus
A bookmark on my mind;
A quote without citation
Did I get it right?
Quell my aggravation

Bridge
Feel the paper - the smell of leather
Pipe in a tray - smoked years ago
Worn out Persian rug - stained a little bit
Heavy curtains - hang in a row

Verse 3
Yellowed pages and dog-eared corners
Cryptic notes, in the margin
A page torn out - what did it say?
Thought I saw that yesterday

Verse 4
Where's that book? - I remember the cover
Bold white letters on a dark red spine
No, that's not it - maybe that one...
Borrowed book? - nope, that one's mine

Chorus (2x)
A bookmark on my mind;
A quote without citation
Did I get it right?
Quell my aggravation (2x)

© Michael Odom/Steve Lundgren 2023

/

 

[The Learner]

I forgot, my computer does not have sound

 

[St. SteVen]

I forgot, my computer does not have sound

Use your phone. - LOL

/

 

[Wick Stick]

- How is aionios used in the Old Testament?

The Greek Old Testament prefers the phrase εἰς τὸν αἰῶνα to translate the Hebrew לְעֹלָֽם.

עֹלָֽם (olam) properly means something like "beyond seeing" and the Greek translation means "through the age" which is the same idea once one understands that most prophecies have a limited scope. These are translated "for ever" in most Bibles, but precisely they mean that something continues past the point to which the prophet can "see."

That said, there are some places in the New Testament with the phrase αἰῶνος τῶν αἰώνων (ages of ages), which definitely does mean indefinitely forever.

 

[The Learner]

Use your phone. - LOL

/

I have only a flip phone, no internet ahhhh

 

[St. SteVen]

I have only a flip phone, no internet ahhhh

Would headphones work on your computer?
Do you know how to turn the sound on? (unmute)

/

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Dear Ronald Nolette,
There is only ONE correct understanding of scripture. When it is found, it is like finding hidden treasure. To find that treasure, a person must be given "eyes that can see". That ability is only given when a believer receives the Latter Rain. The Latter Rain is the Baptism of the Spirit and is what the Apostles received on the Day of Pentecost. The churches of the world have not received the Baptism of the Spirit. They have only received the Early Rain of the Spirit which they deny even exists.

The Early Rain is what Paul received on the Damascus Road. That is when Paul made his confession of faith and called Jesus "Lord". It was at that time that Paul said "what will you have me to do?" Also at that time, Paul became blind to "type" the spiritual blindness of all new believers. That is why Paul had to be "lead by the hand" into Damascus. Every new believer starts their Christian walk in that manner. This is when Christ appears in the flesh to a believer. In other words, they only have a carnal understanding of Him. This is what Paul said to the Corinthian church who likewise had only received the Early Rain.

1Cor 3:1 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ. 2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able. 3 For yea are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?

However, if the believer is also "chosen", Christ will come to them a second time and pour out the Latter Rain and convert them. This is what Paul received after being in Damascus for three days (the number three types a spiritual process and not literal time). However, most believers in the church are NOT chosen for salvation in this age. Christ will not come a second time to them. They will remain unconverted and lost until they die. They have no choice in the matter because God reserved that choice for Himself. He is the one who decides who will be saved in this age and who will not be - and He made that choice prior to the foundation of the world.

Why won't you accept these verses below?

John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

2Tim 1:9 who did save us, and did call with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace, that was given to us in Christ Jesus, before the times of the ages…

Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: 5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, 6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

Because the Elect are chosen for salvation in this age, they are said to be blessed by God. No one has the "free will" ability to deviate from the decision that God made prior to the "times of the ages" and no one even has the right to question God about why He does it this way:

Dan 4:35 And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing; and he doeth according to his will in the army of the heavens, and among the inhabitants of the earth; and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?

You said:
You have new believers being possessed by 7 demons? Hog wash! when a person is saved they receive the fulness of the Spirit and their eyes are finally opened. all they need do is continue to walk in the Spirit to learn and grow.

You are doing just as John said about a believer who has the spirit of anti-Christ within them. You are denying that Christ came in the flesh (the Early Rain) to you.

You said:
Following your logic one can say that physical adultery is not sin but its real meaning is something else!

No. The Law that was given on tablets of stone is for mankind who walks by the flesh. That law says that physical adultery is a sin. But when Christ taught about adultery, He was teaching about spiritual adultery which is the sin of believing Satan over Himself. Spiritual adultery is what Adam and Eve committed in the Garden of Eden and that is why they we expelled from the Garden. They lost their marriage relationship with Christ because of their spiritual adultery.

Joe

I accept all the verses you gave.

I do not accept your Pentecostal rewriting of Scripture to make them mean something not written.

Every believer, the moment they receive the death and resurrection of Jesus as the payment of their sins, receives what you call the latter rain or the Baptism of the Spirit.

Jesus came in the flesh 2000 years ago. He now reigns in heaven and is alive and well in my heart since 1983. I do not deny thay Jesus came in the flesh.

You have saved people ( I assume you believe believers are saved) without the Spirit in direct contradiction to the Scriptures!

And you haven't answered the faqct you said that a believer can now be possessed by 7 more demons according to teh Matthew 12 teaching.

I assume you believe your private interpretation is the correct one and all who disagree with you are wrong. They all confess the same inspiration as you so by what authority do you declare you right and all others wrong.

 

[FaithWillDo]

I accept all the verses you gave.

I do not accept your Pentecostal rewriting of Scripture to make them mean something not written.

Every believer, the moment they receive the death and resurrection of Jesus as the payment of their sins, receives what you call the latter rain or the Baptism of the Spirit.

Jesus came in the flesh 2000 years ago. He now reigns in heaven and is alive and well in my heart since 1983. I do not deny thay Jesus came in the flesh.

You have saved people ( I assume you believe believers are saved) without the Spirit in direct contradiction to the Scriptures!

And you haven't answered the faqct you said that a believer can now be possessed by 7 more demons according to teh Matthew 12 teaching.

I assume you believe your private interpretation is the correct one and all who disagree with you are wrong. They all confess the same inspiration as you so by what authority do you declare you right and all others wrong.

Dear Ronald Nolette,
You said:
Every believer, the moment they receive the death and resurrection of Jesus as the payment of their sins, receives what you call the latter rain or the Baptism of the Spirit.

Your statement above is false and can easily be proven to be false by scripture. Also, if a person receives the Latter Rain at the moment they receive the death and resurrection of Christ, then what is the Early Rain and when is it given to a person?

As I stated in my last post, only a person with the spirit of anti-Christ will deny that Christ ever came to them in the flesh (Early Rain) and that is what you are contending.

So what does scripture say about the Early and Latter Rains?

Hos 6:3 Then shall we know, if we follow on to know the LORD: his going forth is prepared as the morning; and he shall come unto us as the RAIN, as the Latter and Early RAIN unto the earth.

When Christ comes to a person to save them, He will first give them the Early Rain. The Early Rain is a small amount of the Holy Spirit:

Deu 32:2 My doctrine shall drop as the rain, my speech shall distil as the dew, as the Small Rain (Early Rain) upon the tender herb, and as the Showers (Latter Rain) upon the grass:

Job 37:6 For he saith to the snow, Be thou on the earth; likewise to the Small Rain (Early Rain), and to the Great Rain (Latter Rain) of his strength.

Joel 2:23 Be glad then, ye children of Zion, and rejoice in Jehovah your God; for he giveth you the Early Rain in just measure, and he causeth to come down for you the rain, the Early Rain and the Latter Rain, in the first month.

Because the Early Rain is a small amount (just measure) of the Holy Spirit, the new believer will remain spiritually blind and unconverted. However, they will receive a measure of faith with certain spiritual gifts. With this measure of faith, they will enter the church. The churches of the world are full of believers who have only received the Early Rain.

The Apostles during Christ's earthly ministry, Paul's conversion, the story of the woman taken in adultery, the story of the blind man and Christ's teaching on the seven unclean spirits all teach this truth about the Early Rain and its accompanying spiritual blindness.

Because the new believer remains spiritually blind after receiving the Early Rain, they cannot replace their false beliefs with the truth of Christ (Mat 12:43-45). Their house will remain empty. Then the unclean spirit that was cast out will return with seven more unclean spirits. The number seven is a spiritual symbol for perfection and in this case, it represents the spirit of anti-Christ. After the spirit of anti-Christ indwells a new believer, the Abomination of Desolation will occur within them (God's temple). With Satan's spirit, the new believer will accept Satan's false gospel (which mixes works with faith) and will fall from grace.

This is when the new believer will have a "whore's forehead" (the mark of the beast) and become a "man of sin":

Jer 3:3 Therefore the showers (Latter Rain) have been withheld (time of Elijah's 3 1/2 years of drought), and there hath been no Latter Rain; and thou hadst a whore's forehead (mark of the beast), thou refusedst to be ashamed.

To correct the Elect's fallen away spiritual state, Christ will send a person to them in the spirit of Elijah. After they repent of their works, Elijah will send "thunder and Rain (the Latter Rain) which will heal their spiritual blindness:

1Sam 12:17 Is it not wheat harvest to day? (the moment of an Elect believer's salvation) I will call unto the LORD, and he shall send thunder and RAIN (the Latter Rain); that ye may perceive and see that your wickedness is great (a man of sin), which ye have done in the sight of the LORD, in asking you a king (Satan).

With their new "eyes that can see", the Elect believer will "see" the Abomination of Desolation that previously occurred within them:

Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand 16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

This is also when the "man of sin" is revealed to them and they find that they are the man of sin:

2Thes 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

If a believer has not seen the Abomination of Desolation and the man of sin, they have not received the Latter Rain or been converted. In other words, they are not saved and are still under the deceptions of Satan in the apostate church.

Immediately following these events, Christ says to "flee to the mountains" as Lot did because judgment (the baptism of Fire) is about to fall on the man of sin to destroy him from within the Elect believer (described in Rev 19:20 and Mat 24:40-41). After the believer's judgment is complete, the believer will be converted and their inheritance will be confirmed:

Psa 68:9 Thou, O God, didst send a plentiful RAIN (Latter Rain), whereby thou didst confirm thine inheritance, when it was weary (in a fallen away state).

You said:
Jesus came in the flesh 2000 years ago. He now reigns in heaven and is alive and well in my heart since 1983. I do not deny thay Jesus came in the flesh.

You are denying that Christ came to YOU in the flesh when He first appeared to you. That event is the Early Rain of the Spirit when you first made your confession of faith and entered the church. John is not talking about when Christ walked the earth and went to the cross. I don't know of any believers who deny that truth.

You said:
I assume you believe your private interpretation is the correct one and all who disagree with you are wrong. They all confess the same inspiration as you so by what authority do you declare you right and all others wrong.

I was converted in 2005 and experienced everything that I mentioned above. I spent the first 44 years of my life in the apostate church when "suddenly" Christ came to me a second time and poured out the Latter Rain. It was only then that this scripture below was fulfilled in me:

Rev 1:10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet, 11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea. 12 And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks.

This event which John describes represents "conversion" (being turned). Only after a believer is turned, will they be able to hear the words of Christ and see the true church (the seven golden candlesticks).

Until you experience this same event, you will not be able to receive my testimony - just as this world does not receive the testimony of Christ. You (like all mankind) are completely at the mercy of Christ to save you. And God alone decides when that will occur. This is the patience of the saints.

Joe

 

[The Learner]

nice all

 

[Ronald Nolette]

As I stated in my last post, only a person with the spirit of anti-Christ will deny that Christ ever came to them in the flesh (Early Rain) and that is what you are contending.

Now you are lying.

Your statement above is false and can easily be proven to be false by scripture. Also, if a person receives the Latter Rain at the moment they receive the death and resurrection of Christ, then what is the Early Rain and when is it given to a person?

Well see that is your problem. You make receiving the Holy spirit ans the early and latter rain verses. according tpo you a believer can be saved without rewceiving the Holy spirit and that is biblically wrong!

Romans 8:

9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

You cannot be saved unless the Holy spirit dwell in you.

The Apostles during Christ's earthly ministry, Paul's conversion, the story of the woman taken in adultery, the story of the blind man and Christ's teaching on the seven unclean spirits all teach this truth about the Early Rain and its accompanying spiritual blindness.

Because the new believer remains spiritually blind after receiving the Early Rain, they cannot replace their false beliefs with the truth of Christ (Mat 12:43-45). Their house will remain empty. Then the unclean spirit that was cast out will return with seven more unclean spirits. The number seven is a spiritual symbol for perfection and in this case, it represents the spirit of anti-Christ. After the spirit of anti-Christ indwells a new believer, the Abomination of Desolation will occur within them (God's temple). With Satan's spirit, the new believer will accept Satan's false gospel (which mixes works with faith) and will fall from grace.

This is when the new believer will have a "whore's forehead" (the mark of the beast) and become a "man of sin":

More rewriting of Scripture!

As for the mark:

Revelation 14:9-11

King James Version

​

9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

Taking your false interpretation of Scripture and reading it with the bible- a new believer is condemned forever for he has taken the mark according to you.

You said:
Jesus came in the flesh 2000 years ago. He now reigns in heaven and is alive and well in my heart since 1983. I do not deny thay Jesus came in the flesh.

You are denying that Christ came to YOU in the flesh when He first appeared to you. That event is the Early Rain of the Spirit when you first made your confession of faith and entered the church. John is not talking about when Christ walked the earth and went to the cross. I don't know of any believers who deny that truth.

Jesus does not come to anyone in His human body. He comes to us through the Holy spirit. John was talking about jesus comong to earth in a human body! John spent much time in his gospel and letters addressing the gnostic heresy which said Messiah (Christ) did not come in a human body. You are rewriting Scripture to your own destruction.

This event which John describes represents "conversion" (being turned). Only after a believer is turned, will they be able to hear the words of Christ and see the true church (the seven golden candlesticks).

Until you experience this same event, you will not be able to receive my testimony - just as this world does not receive the testimony of Christ. You (like all mankind) are completely at the mercy of Christ to save you. And God alone decides when that will occur. This is the patience of the saints

May God the Father of our Lord Jesus grant you repentance for receiving and now teaching these doctrines of demons. YOu have added and removed words from the inspired Word of god and placed yourself in a dangerous position.

 

[Pierac]

Here are a few interesting facts about the word Aion…

“Let us look at how the word aion is used in a number of passages. About 37 times in the New Testament it is rendered "world," twice as "worlds," twice as "ages," and once as "course." Every place where the word "eternal" appears, with but one exception, it is a translation of this word AION or its adjective form AIONIOS. Twice it is rendered "evermore." Every place where the word "everlasting" appears, but one, it is this same word or its adjective form. With but thirteen exceptions, every place where the word "ever" appears it is the same word or its adjective form. And aside from all this confusion, the word also appears in the plural, and in a number of confusing combinations, such as "the aion of the aion," "the aion of the aions," and "the aions of the aions," etc.

Some of the passages where AION is found will give us added information concerning it.

In Eph. 2:7 we find, "in the ages (aions) to come."

In Col. 1:26 we find, "the mystery which has been hid from ages (aions). "

In Eph. 2:2 we find "you walked, according to the course aion of this world."

In Heb. 1:2 we find, "by whom also He made the worlds (aions)."

In Heb. 11:3 we find, "the worlds (aions) were formed by the Word of God."

In about fifteen instances, such as Mat. 12:32,1 Cor. 1:20, etc., we find it rendered "this world (aion)". Twice we find "this present world (aion). "

In Gal. 1:4 we find, "deliver us from this present evil world (aion)."

In Eph. 6:12 we find, "the rulers of the darkness of this world (aion)."

In 11 Cor. 4:4 we find, "the god of this world (aion)."

In I Cor. 2:6 we find, "the wisdom of this world (aion)."

In Lk. 16:8 we find, "the children of this world (aion)."

In Mk. 4:19 we find, "the cares of this world (aion)."

How much more understandable it would be if the translators had used the word age instead of world!

In Mk. 10:30 we find that there is not only this present aion, which is evil, but also "the world (aion) to come."

In Lk. 20:35 we find, "but they that shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world (aion), and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry nor are given in marriage."

In Heb. 6:5 we find, "and have tasted the powers of the world (aion) to come."

And in Lk. 1:70, Jn. 9:32, etc., we find that the aion had a beginning: "since the world (aion) began."

And now in reviewing the Scriptures we have just quoted, we note that this aion is something which has a king; it has princes; it is in darkness; it had a beginning; it has an ending; it is evil; it has wisdom; it has children who marry; it has cares. The aions we find were made by Christ, simply through His spoken Word, and we also find in Col. 1:26 that the mystery of Christ in us, the hope of glory, has been hidden from these aions.

Now, if aion means eternal, consider how ridiculous the Word of God would be! The Holy Spirit would be found saying, "the mystery which has been hid from eternities;" "the mystery of Christ which in other eternities was not made known;" "in the eternities to come;" "You walked according to the eternity of this world;" "by whom also He made the eternities;" "the rulers of the darkness of this eternity;" "now once in the end of the eternities has He appeared;" "the harvest is the end of the eternity;" "since eternity began;" "in the eternities to come," etc. etc. Let the scholars whose business it is delve into the many intricacies of expression, and worry over the many grammatical combinations. Suffice it to say here that there have been "aions" in the past, there is this present "aion," and there are "aions" to come. And these all combined make up TIME, encompassing the whole of the progressive plan and program of God for the development of His creation.

Our King James version renders it, together with the adjective aionios as: "age, course, eternal, for ever, evermore, for ever and ever, everlasting, world, beginning of the world, world began, world without end." What a horrible mixture! “

 

[St. SteVen]

Suffice it to say here that there have been "aions" in the past, there is this present "aion," and there are "aions" to come. And these all combined make up TIME, encompassing the whole of the progressive plan and program of God for the development of His creation.

Our King James version renders it, together with the adjective aionios as: "age, course, eternal, for ever, evermore, for ever and ever, everlasting, world, beginning of the world, world began, world without end." What a horrible mixture! “

Well said!
Very informative post. Thanks.

/

 

[FaithWillDo]

Now you are lying.

Dear Ronald Nolette,
You said:
Well see that is your problem. You make receiving the Holy spirit ans the early and latter rain verses. according tpo you a believer can be saved without rewceiving the Holy spirit and that is biblically wrong!

I have never said that a person can be saved without the Holy Spirit and I certainly don't believe anyone can be. If you would have carefully read my posts, you would know that to be the case. The spirit word "Rain" is a symbol for the Holy Spirit. As James says, it takes the Early and Latter Rain to be saved:

James 5:7 Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming of the Lord. Behold, the farmer waiteth for the precious fruit of the earth, and hath long patience for it, until he receives the EARLY and LATTER RAIN. 8 Be ye also patient; stablish your hearts: for the coming of the Lord draweth nigh.

The Elect are the precious fruit of the earth and they are not saved until they have received the Early and Latter Rain.

After an unbeliever receives the Early Rain of the Spirit, they are saved but they are not converted and they remain spiritually blind. Because of their spiritual blindness, Satan easily deceives them and causes them to fall from grace. It is at that point that they are no longer saved. Falling away happens to every believer shortly after receiving the Early Rain. For that reason, it is necessary for Christ to come a second time to the Elect and pour out the Latter Rain of the Spirit upon them. The Latter Rain is the Baptism of the Spirit. With that baptism, a fallen away believer will be restored to salvation, have their spiritual blindness healed and then face judgment. After their judgment is complete, they will be converted and will never fall away again.

You said:
Taking your false interpretation of Scripture and reading it with the bible- a new believer is condemned forever for he has taken the mark according to you.

Again, you are not reading my posts. As I presented above, all new believers shortly after receiving the Early Rain will fall away but if they are one of the Elect, Christ will come to them a second time and pour out the Latter Rain of the Spirit. For the non-Elect, they will be resurrected and judged by the Law along side the unbelievers. But during that judgment, Christ will show them mercy and give them the same faith that He earlier gave to the Elect.

Joel chapter 2 presents this judgment which occurs in the final age and it ends with Christ having mercy upon them.
At that time, Christ will give them the Early and Latter Rain of the Spirit:

Joel 2:1 Blow ye the trumpet in Zion, and sound an alarm in my holy mountain: let all the inhabitants of the land tremble: for the Day of the LORD cometh, for it is nigh at hand; 2 A day of darkness and of gloominess, a day of clouds and of thick darkness, as the morning spread upon the mountains: a great people and a strong (these are the Elect who are reigning with Christ); there hath not been ever the like, neither shall be any more after it, even to the years of many generations.

Joel 2:18 Then will the LORD be jealous for his land, and pity his people.

Joel 2:23 Be glad then, ye children of Zion, and rejoice in the LORD your God: for he hath given you the Early (former) Rain moderately, and he will cause to come down for you the Rain, the Early Rain, and the Latter Rain in the first month.

This verse below applies to this time of judgment:

Mat 23:23 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have neglected the weightier matters of the law: justice and mercy and faith. These you ought to have done, without leaving the others undone.

Also, all mankind is "condemned already" (John 3:18) because we have all sinned. The penalty of sin is death. There is no escaping that condemnation. For that reason, it is necessary for Christ to give us a new birth to save us.

In other words, the old vessel will be destroyed and a new vessel will be created:

Jer 18:4 And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it.

The "marred vessel" represents mankind who are the children of the Devil. The new vessel represents the children of God. The spiritual process of destroying the old vessel and creating the new vessel is called conversion.

Since Christ is the Savior of the world, Christ will not rest until 100% of mankind has been converted into children of God. No one will remain lost forever.

Using the farming analogy, the Elect are the "first fruits" of Christ's harvest of mankind. They are only the early portion of the harvest of mankind and not the full harvest as you believe. The harvest at the end of the year (final age) is when Christ will gather in the balance of mankind. He will leave none of His crop to rot in the field.

The Feast of Weeks (First Fruits) foreshadows the harvest of the Elect. The Feast of Ingathering (Tabernacles) foreshadows the final harvest of the rest of mankind.

Exo 34:22 And thou shalt observe the feast of weeks, of the firstfruits of wheat harvest, and the feast of ingathering at the year's end.

You said:
Jesus does not come to anyone in His human body. He comes to us through the Holy spirit. John was talking about jesus comong to earth in a human body! John spent much time in his gospel and letters addressing the gnostic heresy which said Messiah (Christ) did not come in a human body. You are rewriting Scripture to your own destruction.

Again, you are not reading my posts. I never said that Christ comes in a human body when He gives an unbeliever the Early Rain of the Spirit. But because a new believer remains spiritually blind and carnally minded, they can only see Christ "in the flesh". The phrase "in the flesh" represents the carnal way a new believer sees Christ from scripture. They cannot see Him in a spiritual way until they have received the Latter Rain which heals their spiritual blindness. After their blindness is healed, the Word of God (Christ) will open up to their understanding. It is at that time that Christ will appear to them from heaven (spiritually):

This verse applies:

Mat 24:30 “Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 “And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

The second coming event presented above happens immediately after an Elect believer's spiritual blindness is healed when they receive the Latter Rain. This is the moment of salvation when the child of God is born and is gathered up to heaven. Only the children of the Devil (mankind) dwell upon the earth (spiritually speaking of course).

You said:
May God the Father of our Lord Jesus grant you repentance for receiving and now teaching these doctrines of demons. YOu have added and removed words from the inspired Word of god and placed yourself in a dangerous position.

I have not added or removed words from scripture. Nor is anything that I have presented to you contradicted by other scripture. In fact, I have gone to great lengths in my posts to support my statements with numerous scriptures.

Someday, you will understand and see Christ as I do because the Word of God proclaims that you will:

1Tim 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior; 4 who will have all men to be saved, AND TO COME UNTO THE KNOWLEDGE OF THE TRUTH. 5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 6 who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

Until that day, you have no "free will" ability to do otherwise. You, like everyone else, must wait on the Lord to appear to you from heaven, either in this age or in the final age.

Rev 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

Joe

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Dear Ronald Nolette,
You said:
Well see that is your problem. You make receiving the Holy spirit ans the early and latter rain verses. according tpo you a believer can be saved without rewceiving the Holy spirit and that is biblically wrong!

Once again you are lying. for I said the exact opposite. It is you that declared a new believer who only received the "early rain" could be possessed by 7 worse demons according to your view of Matthew 12. do not credit me with your beliefs please.

After an unbeliever receives the Early Rain of the Spirit, they are saved but they are not converted and they remain spiritually blind. Because of their spiritual blindness, Satan easily deceives them and causes them to fall from grace. It is at that point that they are no longer saved. Falling away happens to every believer shortly after receiving the Early Rain. For that reason, it is necessary for Christ to come a second time to the Elect and pour out the Latter Rain of the Spirit upon them. The Latter Rain is the Baptism of the Spirit. With that baptism, a fallen away believer will be restored to salvation, have their spiritual blindness healed and then face judgment. After their judgment is complete, they will be converted and will never fall away again.

Well then there is your problem. Believing a person who is saved can lose their salvation is anti-biblical.

Since Christ is the Savior of the world, Christ will not rest until 100% of mankind has been converted into children of God. No one will remain lost forever.

So you believe a person can lose their salvation and are a universalist as well! WOW! Talk about gross rewrting of Scripture!

Again, you are not reading my posts. I never said that Christ comes in a human body when He gives an unbeliever the Early Rain of the Spirit. But because a new believer remains spiritually blind and carnally minded, they can only see Christ "in the flesh". The phrase "in the flesh" represents the carnal way a new believer sees Christ from scripture. They cannot see Him in a spiritual way until they have received the Latter Rain which heals their spiritual blindness. After their blindness is healed, the Word of God (Christ) will open up to their understanding. It is at that time that Christ will appear to them from heaven (spiritually):

And you imply seeing Jesus in a "spiritual way" has to align with your allegorical reinterpretation of Scripture.

I have not added or removed words from scripture. Nor is anything that I have presented to you contradicted by other scripture. In fact, I have gone to great lengths in my posts to support my statements with numerous scriptures.

Someday, you will understand and see Christ as I do because the Word of God proclaims that you will:

I never wish to understand Jesus as you do- for it is not the Jesus of the bible but the Jesus of "mystic reinterpreters" Who cannot accept the bible as is, but feel they must reinterpret it into some mystical realm like the Cabbalists and Christian mystics and Timothy Leary acolytes of the 60's. there are legions like you and they all reinterpret Scripture different and use the same pretended authority to say they are right and you are wrong, and the bible declares you all wrong!

 

[FaithWillDo]

Once again you are lying.

Dear Ronald Nolette,
There really isn't any reason for me to respond to your comments. For some reason, you are having a lot of trouble understanding what I have presented. But before I move onto another thread, I want to give you a more detailed presentation on my earlier comments on 1John 4:2 where John says that those with the spirit of anti-Christ will deny that Christ came in the flesh.

In 1John chapter 2, John begins by saying that some believers who had previously received the Early Rain of the Spirit and had become a part of the church, “went out from us”:

1John 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time. 19 They went out from us, but they were not of us (they were not converted); for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

Then in chapter 4, John says this:

1John 4:2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: 3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of anti-Christ, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

What John stated above was an actual event that was happening in the church. Evidently, some believers had started denying that Jesus had come in the flesh and had left the church. John said that this false belief was coming from the “spirit of anti-Christ” within these believers and not from the Holy Spirit.

So what is the actual message that is being taught by this event?

To begin, we must remember that God’s Word is written in such a way as to keep its “truth” concealed from everyone except converted believers.

To accomplish this concealment, God’s Word teaches its truth by “another language”.

Isa 28:11 For with stammering lips and another language will he speak to this people. 12 But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.

This “another language” is the spiritual language of Christ.

In the spiritual language of Christ, Christ uses “spirit” words (John 6:63) which have meanings that are different than what man’s wisdom teaches (1Cor 2:13). Christ then uses His “spirit” words in parables (fictional stories), types (actual events) and analogies to teach His messages of truth. Then, to conceal the truth of God even further, Christ teaches His truth “here a little and there a little”. This requires a person to assemble the pieces of truth from various verses of scripture so that a full understanding can be achieved. Finally, truth is built “line upon line and precept upon precept”. This forces a believer to start with the milk of the word before they can move onto learning the deeper truths of God which are contained in the bread, meat and wine.

With all that said now, let’s go back to what 1John represents.

John’s message of truth concerning the spirit of anti-Christ is taught by the “type” of what was actually taking place in the church. It’s message is what I have been saying to you in my earlier posts.

Here it is again in a little more detail:

After an unbeliever receives the Early Rain of the Spirit, they will receive a measure of faith and certain spiritual gifts. At this point, they are saved and will enter the church. However, the new believer will remain unconverted, spiritually blind and carnally minded. Because of these flaws in their new spiritual condition, Satan can easily deceive them by indwelling them with the spirit of anti-Christ (Mat 12:43-45).

With Satan’s spirit and the Holy Spirit both indwelling the believer, they will try to serve “two masters” (Mat 6:24). When they do this, their divided house will fall (fall from grace).

This event is typed by the believers in 1John 2:19 who “went out from us” and it foreshadows what is going to later happen to the entire church (Acts 20:29-31).

In the events that John relates, the fallen away believers who leave the true church are under Satan’s deception that teaches them that Christ did not come in the flesh. This is the same lie that Satan uses with new believers in the church today. Satan is successful in deceiving new believers because they don’t realize that Christ must come to them two times before they are converted and saved.

These believers have not applied the concept of the Early & Latter Rain and the concept of “first comes the natural, then comes the spiritual” (1Cor 15:46) to their salvation.

Because they don’t understand these two concepts as they apply to their salvation, they believe that salvation only requires Christ to come to them one time. And they believe that this one time is when Christ comes and pours out the baptism of the Spirit (Latter Rain) upon them – which is the same baptism that the Apostles received on the Day of Pentecost. However, concerning the Apostles, the new believers don’t realize the significance of when Christ first appeared to the Apostles (when they knew Jesus to be the Christ) during His journey to the cross.

CONTINUED ON THE NEXT POST...

 

[FaithWillDo]

Once again you are lying.

CONTINUED FROM THE PREVIOUS POST...

When Christ “appeared” to the Apostles, they could only see Him “in the flesh” (literally and spiritually). It was at that time when the Apostles received the Early Rain of the Spirit and made a confession of faith (John 6:67-69).

We can know this is when the Apostles received the Early Rain because of what this verse states:

1Cor 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Spirit.

We can also know that the Apostles remained spiritually blind at that time because of what Christ said to them in Mark 8:15-21:

Mark 8:15 And he charged them, saying, take heed, beware of the leaven of the Pharisees, and of the leaven of Herod. 16 And they reasoned among themselves, saying, it is because we have no bread. 17 And when Jesus knew it, he saith unto them, why reason ye, because ye have no bread? perceive ye not yet, neither understand? have ye your heart yet hardened? 18 Having eyes, see ye not? and having ears, hear ye not? and do ye not remember? 19 When I broke the five loaves among five thousand, how many baskets full of fragments took ye up? They say unto him, Twelve. 20 And when the seven among four thousand, how many baskets full of fragments took ye up? And they said, Seven. 21 And he said unto them, how is it that ye do not understand?

Then, in the very next four verses, Christ answers His own question:

Mark 8:22 And he cometh to Bethsaida; and they bring a blind man unto him, and besought him to touch him. 23 And he took the blind man by the hand, and led him out of the town (called out from the world); and when he had spit on his eyes (represents the Early Rain), and put his hands upon him, he asked him if he saw ought. 24 And he looked up, and said, I see men as trees, walking. 25 After that he put his hands again upon his eyes (represents the Latter Rain), and made him look up: and he was restored, and saw every man clearly.

And just as the Apostles could only see Christ in the flesh after receiving the Early Rain, so do all new believers. This happens because the Early Rain does not heal a new believer’s spiritual blindness or destroy their carnality. As a result, Christ only appears to them in a carnal way (“in the flesh”).

Because a new believer doesn’t understand or believe what I stated above, they will deny that Christ ever came to them in the flesh. They will deny that they have only received the Early Rain of the Spirit which has left them carnal in their understanding of God’s Word (Christ). They simply don’t believe the concept of “first comes the natural, then comes the spiritual” (1Cor 15:46) as it applies to their salvation. They have been told by the apostate church and believe that it is only necessary for Christ to come to them one-time to be converted and saved. They are blind to the truth taught by God’s Word that Christ must come two times before a person is converted and saved.

Summary: The first time Christ comes a person, He will give them the Early Rain of the Spirit. But because they remain spiritually blind, Christ will only appear to them “in the flesh” (the natural). The second time Christ comes to a person, Christ will give them the Latter Rain of the Spirit. With the second coming of Christ, Christ will heal the person’s spiritual blindness. As a result, Christ will then spiritually appear to them (the spiritual).

The time a believer spends in between the Early and Latter Rains is typed by Elijah’s 3 ½ years of drought. During that time, the believer will come under the deceptions of Satan via the spirit of anti-Christ and become "worse than the first" (Mat 12:43-45). At this time, they will fall from grace. While under Satan’s deceptions, the believer will mistakenly think that they are saved by Christ’s first and only appearance to them. They will not realize that Christ did not give them the baptism of the Spirit (Latter Rain) when He came but only give them the Early Rain of the Spirit. Because this truth is concealed from them, they will deny that Christ ever came to them “in the flesh” (Early Rain).

This is what the “type” in 1John is actually teaching.

Joe

 

[Ronald Nolette]

There really isn't any reason for me to respond to your comments. For some reason, you are having a lot of trouble understanding what I have presented. But before I move onto another thread, I want to give you a more detailed presentation on my earlier comments on 1John 4:2 where John says that those with the spirit of anti-Christ will deny that Christ came in the flesh.

I have trouble because you are writing your own opinions which you call the bible but are not!

Sorry but the Apsotle Johyn was writing about a growing heresy called gnosticism which denied that the Messiah/Christ came in human flesh, because they said flesh was evil. You have rewritten what teh apostle wrote for some non biblical doctrine.