Kolasis - William Barclay

[FaithWillDo]

If the age of correction (you say is hell) does not last forever, then neither does the age of heaven. They are constructed the same and must mean the same. You can't have one mean temporary anmd one mean forever-it is not how it is written.

Dear Ronald Nolette,

I thought I would respond to you and present this verse:

Mat 24:35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

So what is your understanding of this verse? It clearly says that heaven will pass away.

Also, scripture never says that there is an "age of heaven". You are adding that phrase to scripture.

Joe

 

[The Learner]

Are you saying that aionios always means eternal?

​

◄ 166. aiónios ►

​

Strong's Concordance aiónios: agelong, eternal Original Word: αἰώνιος, ία, ιον Part of Speech: Adjective Transliteration: aiónios Phonetic Spelling: (ahee-o'-nee-os) Definition: agelong, eternal Usage: age-long, and therefore: practically eternal, unending; partaking of the character of that which lasts for an age, as contrasted with that which is brief and fleeting.​

short anwer context gives meaning..

/ cc: @Lambano

 

[The Learner]

The Learner's links have some good information about the "semantic range" of words.

Have you ever tried arguing with a Catholic brother or sister about the interpretation of Matthew 1:25? The word "until" has a semantic range, which strictly speaking says nothing about events that happen after the terminus of the "until" condition. (Those of us old enough to have programmed in FORTRAN will smile knowingly at that.) But what is IMPLIED by the terminus says volumes.

Anyway, given the semantic range of words, it becomes a mind-reading exercise of trying to understand what the author is trying to convey. Which means looking at context, how the author uses the word in the rest of his/her writings, the author's overall worldview, thinking of other ways what was said could've been said...

fortran programmers unite

 

[The Learner]

The Learner's links have some good information about the "semantic range" of words.

Have you ever tried arguing with a Catholic brother or sister about the interpretation of Matthew 1:25? The word "until" has a semantic range, which strictly speaking says nothing about events that happen after the terminus of the "until" condition. (Those of us old enough to have programmed in FORTRAN will smile knowingly at that.) But what is IMPLIED by the terminus says volumes.

Anyway, given the semantic range of words, it becomes a mind-reading exercise of trying to understand what the author is trying to convey. Which means looking at context, how the author uses the word in the rest of his/her writings, the author's overall worldview, thinking of other ways what was said could've been said...

Were you in NAM too?

 

[The Learner]

We all do.

All lies and jest;
Still a man hears
What he wants to hear
And disregards the rest.

That is vey true when you ask someone to do something.

 

[The Learner]

Dear Lambano,
To answer your question above, there is no singular Greek word that means "eternal". Look at the verse you mentioned:

1Tim 1:17 Now unto the King eternal (aion), immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen.

The verse should be translated as "Now unto the King of the ages, immortal..."

Christ is the King of the ages. He is not an eternal King. But Christ does live forever and that is why Paul also described Him as being "immortal".

The scripture below gives us a clearer understanding concerning how long Christ's reign as king continues and it does so without making use of the Greek word in question (aion):

1Cor 15:20 But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection from the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the first fruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. 24 Then cometh the consummation, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. 27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. 28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

After Christ completes the mission His Father gave Him (1John 4:14), Christ will deliver up the Kingdom of Heaven (now containing all mankind) to the Father and Christ's reign as king will come to an end. God the Father will then be "all in all".

In the spiritual language of Christ, the "ends of the ages" come upon a person when they are converted into a child of God (from a child of the Devil).

1Cor 10:11 Now all these things happened to them as types, and have been written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the ages are come.

After the last person is converted in the final age, the literal end of the ages will arrive. At that time, Christ's reign will also end because His work is finished.

This verse also mentions Christ's reign using "aion", but it, too (like 1Tim 1:17), is improperly translated:

Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever (aion aion).

So is Paul mistaken in 1Cor 15:24-25 when he says that Christ's reign will come to an end? Or is John mistaken in Rev 11:15 when he says that Christ's reign will never end? Both cannot be true. To resolve this issue, we must look at the translation of "aion aion".

When "aion aion" is translated as "ages of the ages", both Paul and John are in agreement:

Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for the ages of the ages.

To translate "aion aion" as meaning "for ever and ever" makes no sense. And for that matter, what does "for ever and ever" mean anyway? Since "for ever" means limitless time, what reason is there to add another "ever" on the end of it?

"Aion" never means "for ever" or "eternal". It means an age of time which has an end. Also, its adjective form (aionios) means "age enduring" and it, too, has an end.

The improper translation of "aion" occurs in most bibles because most translators believe in an eternal hell. Because they do, they were compelled to create an alternate translation for the word "aion" to support this false doctrine. But even with that change of definition, the contradiction still occurs with other verses in scripture.

Here are just a few:

1Tim 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior; 4 who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 6 who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

Phi 2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee shall bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; 11 and that every tongue shall confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Rom 5:18 so then as it was by one offence towards all men to condemnation, so by one righteousness towards all men for justification of life. 19 For as indeed by the disobedience of the one man the many have been constituted sinners, so also by the obedience of the one the many will be constituted righteous (in other words, all who died in Adam will be made alive in Christ, 1Cor 15:22).

Joe

Matt 25:46, if one limits the time for punishment, based on the Greek Grammar they also limit the time peroid for Life too.

 

[The Learner]

If the age of correction (you say is hell) does not last forever, then neither does the age of heaven. They are constructed the same and must mean the same. You can't have one mean temporary anmd one mean forever-it is not how it is written.

 

[The Learner]

Dear Ronald Nolette,

I thought I would respond to you and present this verse:

Mat 24:35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

So what is your understanding of this verse? It clearly says that heaven will pass away.

Also, scripture never says that there is an "age of heaven". You are adding that phrase to scripture.

Joe

Joe, it is talking about the physical Heaven and Earth, not the spiritual.

 

[FaithWillDo]

Joe, it is talking about the physical Heaven and Earth, not the spiritual. View attachment 38434View attachment 38435

Dear Learner,
No, Christ is not talking about the physical heaven and earth. Christ's words are spirit (John 6:63) and they carry meanings that are different than what man's wisdom teaches (1Cor 2:13).

In Mat 24:35, Christ is teaching about the same heaven and earth that Peter does in 2Pet 3:10. That heaven and earth are the old heaven and the old earth which will be destroyed by fire. That is the heaven and earth that will pass away.

The spirit word "earth" represents man's spiritual nature and the spirit word "heaven" represents man's mind. The old heaven and old earth are carnal and will be destroyed by fire (word for Christ's judgment). The new heaven and new earth are spiritual and are governed by the Holy Spirit which indwells a converted believer.

Heaven can also represents a person's spiritual state of being - a state of being which is governed by the Holy Spirit. With this understanding, a converted believer will dwell in heaven with Christ after they are converted. That is the same meaning of heaven used in Mat 24:31.

Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

When Christ comes a second time, He will baptize the carnal believer with the Holy Spirit (the Latter Rain of the Spirit) and with fire.

Mat 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Spirit, and with fire: 12 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

The baptism of the Holy Spirit will create the new child of God. The fire (judgment) will destroy the child of the devil. This is conversion.

To represent a person's change of spiritual state (conversion), Mat 24:31 says that the converted believer is then gathered to heaven. This event is a person moment of salvation and it happens while they are in the flesh.

The spirit word "earth" can also represent a spiritual state of being. That is why scripture says carnal believers dwell on the earth. Furthermore, the spirit word "sea" represents the spiritual state of unbelievers.

I also wanted to comment on your post which refers to Mat 25:46.

Mat 25:46 And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during.'

You said:
Matt 25:46, if one limits the time for punishment, based on the Greek Grammar they also limit the time period for Life, too.

One of the rewards that the Elect receive is to have life during the ages. It does not mean that they will not have life after the ages. The verse is silent on that aspect (here a little and there a little, Isa 28:9-12). In other words, the Elect are harvested early in this present age and that is why they are called "first fruits". The balance of mankind will not receive life during the ages but will receive judgement instead. But before they perish (the true penalty of sin), Christ will have mercy upon them and give them the same gift of faith that He earlier gave to the Elect.

Mat 23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law: justice, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

When Christ judges the lost in the final age, He will not omit mercy and faith. Justice will be served by the destruction of each person's old heaven and old earth. Then, with a new heaven and a new earth, the person will be converted and gathered to heaven.

Their old vessel will be destroyed and a new vessel created.

Jer 18:4 And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it.

Since Christ is the Potter (the Savior), He will do all the work of converting mankind from the old carnal vessel into a new spiritual vessel. That is why Paul said that converted believers are His workmanship and they have nothing to boast about concerning their salvation (Eph 2:8-10).

Christ is the Savior and He will see to it that all mankind is saved. It is His work to accomplish:

1John 4:14 And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Savior of the world.

The Elect who are being saved now are the first fruits of His harvest. They are blessed and will receive life during the ages. The rest of mankind will be saved at the end of the harvest season (final age) when the main harvest of mankind is gathered into the barn. They are not blessed but they will still be saved by fire (Christ's judgment):

1Cor 3:13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. 14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

The scripture above is teaching about the judgment of Christ that will fall on 100% of mankind. Those who receive a reward (life during the ages) are the Elect. They are judged and converted in this present age. The rest of mankind will not receive life during the ages but will still be saved at the end of the final age. The book of Revelation calls this judgment the "Lake of Fire". The Lake of Fire is when Christ will NOT forget to administer mercy and faith upon those being judged.

After Christ's reign is complete, the ages will come to an end and all mankind will be saved. This is the true "good news" that should be proclaimed to the world.

Joe

 

[St. SteVen]

@The Learner wrote: "short anwer context gives meaning.."

Let's discuss. Thanks, friend.

/

 

[St. SteVen]

Matt 25:46, if one limits the time for punishment, based on the Greek Grammar they also limit the time peroid for Life too.

That's a good observation.
I had to confront this issue. I didn't want to give up eternal life just to debunk the hell doctrine, but there it was.
What to do, what to do... ???

Then I realized that one age follows another.
The verse then limits the age of correction and restoration to one age.
And after that one age follows the previous one. Solved.

Which probably makes more sense in terms of tracking a history in eternity.
Referring to what happened in a certain age.

/

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Dear Ronald Nolette,

I thought I would respond to you and present this verse:

Mat 24:35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

So what is your understanding of this verse? It clearly says that heaven will pass away.

Also, scripture never says that there is an "age of heaven". You are adding that phrase to scripture.

Joe

Heaven and earth will pass away!

Revelation 21

King James Version

​

21 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

I was using the phraseology of "age of heaven in speaking to a specific person. I would normally call that eternity.

 

[FaithWillDo]

Heaven and earth will pass away!

Revelation 21​

​

King James Version​

​

​

21 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

I was using the phraseology of "age of heaven in speaking to a specific person. I would normally call that eternity.

Dear Ronald Nolette,
I believe we have had discussions before where I pointed out that Christ says His words are "spirit". Paul says that spirit words carry meanings that are not taught by man's wisdom (1Cor 2:13).

In post #29 to The Learner, I explained what the spirit words "heaven" and "earth" represent. They do not represent the physical earth or heaven as man's wisdom teaches (and as you teach).

If a person only understands God's Word carnally, they are never going to find the knowledge of God. To find that knowledge, Christ must come to a believer a second time and heal their spiritual blindness. Until that happens, Christ (the truth) will remain veiled from their understanding.

Joe

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Dear Ronald Nolette,
I believe we have had discussions before where I pointed out that Christ says His words are "spirit". Paul says that spirit words carry meanings that are not taught by man's wisdom (1Cor 2:13).

In post #29 to The Learner, I explained what the spirit words "heaven" and "earth" represent. They do not represent the physical earth or heaven as man's wisdom teaches (and as you teach).

If a person only understands God's Word carnally, they are never going to find the knowledge of God. To find that knowledge, Christ must come to a believer a second time and heal their spiritual blindness. Until that happens, Christ (the truth) will remain veiled from their understanding.

Joe

Yeah you have delved into the mystic stuff and I reject it. God wrote He said and said what He meant. He doesn't require us to become masters of the mystic arts to know what is read. It requires the sapirit to be able to accept as truth the very simple words written. God did not speak in code.

If He did which interpretation is the right one? We have legions of interpretations all saying they are the correct "spiritual meaning" of the physical words written.

 

[FaithWillDo]

Yeah you have delved into the mystic stuff and I reject it. God wrote He said and said what He meant. He doesn't require us to become masters of the mystic arts to know what is read. It requires the sapirit to be able to accept as truth the very simple words written. God did not speak in code.

If He did which interpretation is the right one? We have legions of interpretations all saying they are the correct "spiritual meaning" of the physical words written.

Dear Ronald Nolette,
Scripture clearly says that Christ (God's Word) teaches the truth in a way that keeps it concealed from all but those who have been given "eyes that can see" and "ears that can hear". Only after Christ gives a person that gift will they be able to find the hidden manna of God (truth).

To believe as you stated in your post, you have removed the following scriptures from God's Word:

Rev 2:17 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.

Mat 13:34 All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them:

Mat 13:10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, why speakest thou unto them in parables? 11 He answered and said unto them, because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.

1Cor 2:7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory.

1Cor 2:13 These things we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

Isa 28:9 Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts. 10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little: 11 For with stammering lips and another language will he speak to this people. 12 But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.

Psa 119:160 The sum of your word is truth, and every one of your righteous rules endures forever.

Prov 2:1 My son, if you receive my words and treasure up my commandments with you, 2 making your ear attentive to wisdom and inclining your heart to understanding; 3 yes, if you call out for insight and raise your voice for understanding, 4 if you seek it like silver and search for it as for hidden treasures, 5 then you will understand the fear of the Lord and find the knowledge of God.

These scriptures clearly state that truth is taught in God's Word in such a way as to keep it concealed from all but those whom Christ has given the ability to understand it.

You say that I have delved into "mystic stuff" but then you say that understanding requires the Holy Spirit. Which is it? Is scripture written in such a way it can be clearly understood by everyone or does it require the guidance of the Holy Spirit?

Since understanding requires the Holy Spirit, scripture cannot be written in an easy to understand way. Paul says, "we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery". Christ even said that He taught His truth in parables so that His message could not be understood by anyone but the Elect - and even then, the Elect cannot understand His message until they have received both the Early and Latter Rains of the Spirit (Mark 8:15-25). It is only at that time will the scales fall off the Elect's eyes so that they can consume "truth" for the first time.

The churches of the world are full of spiritually blind believers because they have only received the Early Rain of the Spirit. In that condition, the churches are places where the "blind lead the blind". And because they cannot receive the truth of God, Satan comes to them with the spirit of anti-Christ and deceives them into accepting his "another gospel". The churches of the world (all 2,000 different denominations/sects) have become apostate.

Christ teaches how this happens below:

Mat 12:43 When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest, and findeth none. 44 Then he saith, I will return into my house from whence I came out; and when he is come, he findeth it empty, swept, and garnished. 45 Then goeth he, and taketh with himself SEVEN other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter in and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first. Even so shall it be also unto this wicked generation.

The spiritual symbol of an unclean spirit represents a spirit which teaches Satan's false truth through lies and deceptions.

Since a new believer remains spiritually blind (Mark 8:21-25) after receiving the Early Rain of the Spirit, they cannot replace their worldly false beliefs with the truth of Christ. ONE unclean spirit leaves but comes back with SEVEN more. The number "seven" represents perfection. In this case, the number seven represents the perfection of Satan's lies/deceptions which come to a believer by the indwelling of the spirit of anti-Christ. Now, instead of ONE unclean spirit within the believer, they now have EIGHT. The number eight is a spiritual symbol which represents a new spiritual condition. In this case, the new spiritual condition is worse than the first.

When a person has the spirit of anti-Christ and has become "worse than the first", they will deny that Christ came in the flesh:

1John 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

I'll explain: After a person receives the Early Rain of the Spirit, they are left spiritually blind. In other words, they can only see Christ "in the flesh" (in a carnal way). But the churches deny that Christ ever came to them in the flesh. They believe that when He first came to them, He did so spiritually (Latter Rain) just as He did to the 120 Jewish Elect on the Day of Pentecost. But this belief is a deception by the spirit of anti-Christ. With this deception, the apostate church "dwells in peace and safety" believing that they are saved when they are not. They remain unconverted because conversion requires both the Early and Latter Rains of the Spirit. This apostate spiritual condition is the true spiritual condition of the churches of this world. They are following "another Jesus" and "another spirit" and they believe "another gospel":

2Cor 11:4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.

You said:
If He did which interpretation is the right one? We have legions of interpretations all saying they are the correct "spiritual meaning" of the physical words written.

Yes, the churches have "legions of interpretations" because they are spiritually blind. They cannot find the truth of God. But when a believer receives the Latter Rain and "sees" the Abomination of Desolation that had previously occurred within themselves, their spiritual blindness is healed. After Christ gives them "eyes that can see", the truth of God's Word will open up to them and they will find the hidden treasure of God. It is only at that point that the Holy Spirit guides their understanding to know the one and only truth of God presented in scripture. Prior to that point, the spirit of anti-Christ guided their understanding into the many lies of Satan.

Joe

 

[Lambano]

Systematic Theologians and Mystics never could get along.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Dear Ronald Nolette,
Scripture clearly said that Christ (God's Word) teaches the truth in a way that keeps it concealed from all but those who have been given "eyes that can see" and "ears that can hear". Only after Christ gives a person that gift will they be able to find the hidden manna of God (truth).

To believe as you stated in your post, you have removed the following scriptures from God's Word:

Rev 2:17 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.

Mat 13:34 All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them:

Mat 13:10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, why speakest thou unto them in parables? 11 He answered and said unto them, because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.

1Cor 2:7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory.

1Cor 2:13 These things we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

Isa 28:9 Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts. 10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little: 11 For with stammering lips and another language will he speak to this people. 12 But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.

Psa 119:160 The sum of your word is truth, and every one of your righteous rules endures forever.

Prov 2:1 My son, if you receive my words and treasure up my commandments with you, 2 making your ear attentive to wisdom and inclining your heart to understanding; 3 yes, if you call out for insight and raise your voice for understanding, 4 if you seek it like silver and search for it as for hidden treasures, 5 then you will understand the fear of the Lord and find the knowledge of God.

These scriptures clearly state that truth is taught in God's Word in such a way as to keep it concealed from all but those whom Christ has given the ability to understand it.

You say that I have delved into "mystic stuff" but then you say that understanding requires the Holy Spirit. Which is it? Is scripture written in such a way it can be clearly understood by everyone or does it require the guidance of the Holy Spirit?

Since understanding requires the Holy Spirit, scripture cannot be written in an easy to understand way. Paul says, "we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery". Christ even said that He taught His truth in parables so that His message could not be understood by anyone but the Elect - and even then, the Elect cannot understand His message until they have received both the Early and Latter Rains of the Spirit (Mark 8:15-25). It is only at that time will the scales fall off the Elect's eyes so that they can consume "truth" for the first time.

The churches of the world are full of spiritually blind believers because they have only received the Early Rain of the Spirit. In that condition, the churches are places where the "blind lead the blind". And because they cannot receive the truth of God, Satan comes to them with the spirit of anti-Christ and deceives them into accepting his "another gospel". The churches of the world (all 2,000 different denominations/sects) have become apostate.

Christ teaches how this happens below:

Mat 12:43 When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest, and findeth none. 44 Then he saith, I will return into my house from whence I came out; and when he is come, he findeth it empty, swept, and garnished. 45 Then goeth he, and taketh with himself SEVEN other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter in and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first. Even so shall it be also unto this wicked generation.

The spiritual symbol of an unclean spirit represents a spirit which teaches Satan's false truth through lies and deceptions.

Since a new believer remains spiritually blind (Mark 8:21-25) after receiving the Early Rain of the Spirit, they cannot replace their worldly false beliefs with the truth of Christ. ONE unclean spirit leaves but comes back with SEVEN more. The number "seven" represents perfection. In this case, the number seven represents the perfection of Satan's lies/deceptions which come to a believer by the indwelling of the spirit of anti-Christ. Now, instead of ONE unclean spirit within the believer, they now have EIGHT. The number eight is a spiritual symbol which represents a new spiritual condition. In this case, the new spiritual condition is worse than the first.

When a person has the spirit of anti-Christ and has become "worse than the first", they will deny that Christ came in the flesh:

1John 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

I'll explain: After a person receives the Early Rain of the Spirit, they are left spiritually blind. In other words, they can only see Christ "in the flesh" (in a carnal way). But the churches deny that Christ ever came to them in the flesh. They believe that when He first came to them, He did so spiritually (Latter Rain) just as He did to the 120 Jewish Elect on the Day of Pentecost. But this belief is a deception by the spirit of anti-Christ. With this deception, the apostate church "dwells in peace and safety" believing that they are saved when they are not. They remain unconverted because conversion requires both the Early and Latter Rains of the Spirit. This apostate spiritual condition is the true spiritual condition of the churches of this world. They are following "another Jesus" and "another spirit" and they believe "another gospel":

2Cor 11:4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.

You said:
If He did which interpretation is the right one? We have legions of interpretations all saying they are the correct "spiritual meaning" of the physical words written.

Yes, the churches have "legions of interpretations" because they are spiritually blind. They cannot find the truth of God. But when a believer receives the Latter Rain and "sees" the Abomination of Desolation that had previously occurred within themselves, their spiritual blindness is healed. After Christ gives them "eyes that can see", the truth of God's Word will open up to them and they will find the hidden treasure of God. It is only at that point that the Holy Spirit guides their understanding to know the one and only truth of God presented in scripture. Prior to that point, the spirit of anti-Christ guided their understanding into the many lies of Satan.

Joe

Joe you need to understand- He spoke the parables to keep things hidden from the masses, not the rest of Scripture.

What you are alleging is that what the Spirit inspired is not what God meant, but there is some hidden meaning underneath what He instructed the prophets and Apostles to write. Once again there are literally thousands out there running around saying the same things as you but with vastly differing "interpretations! Who is right? You all say you get them from God so?

You have new believers being possessed by 7 demons? Hog wash! when a person is saved they receive the fulness of the Spirit and their eyes are finally opened. all they need do is continue to walk in the Spirit to learn and grow.

Yes their are legions of interpretations, and yours is just simply one more in the host of reinterpreters of the Word of God!

Your Abomination is screwed up and anti biblical. You have received extremely heretical teaching in the guise of truth.

Following you rlogic one can say that physical adultery is not sin but its real meaning is something else! How can you refute them when you reinterpret so many other scriptures. You both say you come from God but yet both of you are not proclaiming His Word!

 

[FaithWillDo]

Joe you need to understand- He spoke the parables to keep things hidden from the masses, not the rest of Scripture.

What you are alleging is that what the Spirit inspired is not what God meant, but there is some hidden meaning underneath what He instructed the prophets and Apostles to write. Once again there are literally thousands out there running around saying the same things as you but with vastly differing "interpretations! Who is right? You all say you get them from God so?

You have new believers being possessed by 7 demons? Hog wash! when a person is saved they receive the fulness of the Spirit and their eyes are finally opened. all they need do is continue to walk in the Spirit to learn and grow.

Yes their are legions of interpretations, and yours is just simply one more in the host of reinterpreters of the Word of God!

Your Abomination is screwed up and anti biblical. You have received extremely heretical teaching in the guise of truth.

Following you rlogic one can say that physical adultery is not sin but its real meaning is something else! How can you refute them when you reinterpret so many other scriptures. You both say you come from God but yet both of you are not proclaiming His Word!

Dear Ronald Nolette,
There is only ONE correct understanding of scripture. When it is found, it is like finding hidden treasure. To find that treasure, a person must be given "eyes that can see". That ability is only given when a believer receives the Latter Rain. The Latter Rain is the Baptism of the Spirit and is what the Apostles received on the Day of Pentecost. The churches of the world have not received the Baptism of the Spirit. They have only received the Early Rain of the Spirit which they deny even exists.

The Early Rain is what Paul received on the Damascus Road. That is when Paul made his confession of faith and called Jesus "Lord". It was at that time that Paul said "what will you have me to do?" Also at that time, Paul became blind to "type" the spiritual blindness of all new believers. That is why Paul had to be "lead by the hand" into Damascus. Every new believer starts their Christian walk in that manner. This is when Christ appears in the flesh to a believer. In other words, they only have a carnal understanding of Him. This is what Paul said to the Corinthian church who likewise had only received the Early Rain.

1Cor 3:1 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ. 2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able. 3 For yea are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?

However, if the believer is also "chosen", Christ will come to them a second time and pour out the Latter Rain and convert them. This is what Paul received after being in Damascus for three days (the number three types a spiritual process and not literal time). However, most believers in the church are NOT chosen for salvation in this age. Christ will not come a second time to them. They will remain unconverted and lost until they die. They have no choice in the matter because God reserved that choice for Himself. He is the one who decides who will be saved in this age and who will not be - and He made that choice prior to the foundation of the world.

Why won't you accept these verses below?

John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

2Tim 1:9 who did save us, and did call with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace, that was given to us in Christ Jesus, before the times of the ages…

Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: 5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, 6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

Because the Elect are chosen for salvation in this age, they are said to be blessed by God. No one has the "free will" ability to deviate from the decision that God made prior to the "times of the ages" and no one even has the right to question God about why He does it this way:

Dan 4:35 And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing; and he doeth according to his will in the army of the heavens, and among the inhabitants of the earth; and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?

You said:
You have new believers being possessed by 7 demons? Hog wash! when a person is saved they receive the fulness of the Spirit and their eyes are finally opened. all they need do is continue to walk in the Spirit to learn and grow.

You are doing just as John said about a believer who has the spirit of anti-Christ within them. You are denying that Christ came in the flesh (the Early Rain) to you.

You said:
Following your logic one can say that physical adultery is not sin but its real meaning is something else!

No. The Law that was given on tablets of stone is for mankind who walks by the flesh. That law says that physical adultery is a sin. But when Christ taught about adultery, He was teaching about spiritual adultery which is the sin of believing Satan over Himself. Spiritual adultery is what Adam and Eve committed in the Garden of Eden and that is why they we expelled from the Garden. They lost their marriage relationship with Christ because of their spiritual adultery.

Joe

 

[St. SteVen]

Systematic Theologians and Mystics never could get along.

Yup.
The only thing Systematic about the Mystics was their flee to
the desert to get away from the Theologians. - LOL

Can't say that I blame them.

/

 

[The Learner]

Dear Learner,
No, Christ is not talking about the physical heaven and earth. Christ's words are spirit (John 6:63) and they carry meanings that are different than what man's wisdom teaches (1Cor 2:13).

In Mat 24:35, Christ is teaching about the same heaven and earth that Peter does in 2Pet 3:10. That heaven and earth are the old heaven and the old earth which will be destroyed by fire. That is the heaven and earth that will pass away.

The spirit word "earth" represents man's spiritual nature and the spirit word "heaven" represents man's mind. The old heaven and old earth are carnal and will be destroyed by fire (word for Christ's judgment). The new heaven and new earth are spiritual and are governed by the Holy Spirit which indwells a converted believer.

Heaven can also represents a person's spiritual state of being - a state of being which is governed by the Holy Spirit. With this understanding, a converted believer will dwell in heaven with Christ after they are converted. That is the same meaning of heaven used in Mat 24:31.

Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

When Christ comes a second time, He will baptize the carnal believer with the Holy Spirit (the Latter Rain of the Spirit) and with fire.

Mat 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Spirit, and with fire: 12 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

The baptism of the Holy Spirit will create the new child of God. The fire (judgment) will destroy the child of the devil. This is conversion.

To represent a person's change of spiritual state (conversion), Mat 24:31 says that the converted believer is then gathered to heaven. This event is a person moment of salvation and it happens while they are in the flesh.

The spirit word "earth" can also represent a spiritual state of being. That is why scripture says carnal believers dwell on the earth. Furthermore, the spirit word "sea" represents the spiritual state of unbelievers.

I also wanted to comment on your post which refers to Mat 25:46.

Mat 25:46 And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during.'

You said:
Matt 25:46, if one limits the time for punishment, based on the Greek Grammar they also limit the time period for Life, too.

One of the rewards that the Elect receive is to have life during the ages. It does not mean that they will not have life after the ages. The verse is silent on that aspect (here a little and there a little, Isa 28:9-12). In other words, the Elect are harvested early in this present age and that is why they are called "first fruits". The balance of mankind will not receive life during the ages but will receive judgement instead. But before they perish (the true penalty of sin), Christ will have mercy upon them and give them the same gift of faith that He earlier gave to the Elect.

Mat 23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law: justice, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

When Christ judges the lost in the final age, He will not omit mercy and faith. Justice will be served by the destruction of each person's old heaven and old earth. Then, with a new heaven and a new earth, the person will be converted and gathered to heaven.

Their old vessel will be destroyed and a new vessel created.

Jer 18:4 And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it.

Since Christ is the Potter (the Savior), He will do all the work of converting mankind from the old carnal vessel into a new spiritual vessel. That is why Paul said that converted believers are His workmanship and they have nothing to boast about concerning their salvation (Eph 2:8-10).

Christ is the Savior and He will see to it that all mankind is saved. It is His work to accomplish:

1John 4:14 And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Savior of the world.

The Elect who are being saved now are the first fruits of His harvest. They are blessed and will receive life during the ages. The rest of mankind will be saved at the end of the harvest season (final age) when the main harvest of mankind is gathered into the barn. They are not blessed but they will still be saved by fire (Christ's judgment):

1Cor 3:13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. 14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

The scripture above is teaching about the judgment of Christ that will fall on 100% of mankind. Those who receive a reward (life during the ages) are the Elect. They are judged and converted in this present age. The rest of mankind will not receive life during the ages but will still be saved at the end of the final age. The book of Revelation calls this judgment the "Lake of Fire". The Lake of Fire is when Christ will NOT forget to administer mercy and faith upon those being judged.

After Christ's reign is complete, the ages will come to an end and all mankind will be saved. This is the true "good news" that should be proclaimed to the world.

Joe

Hi Joe, My comments on Matt 25:46 is based on many Greek Scholars. I even took Greek at Univeristy levels.

A Grammar of the Greek New Testament in the Light of Historical Research​

Eugene A. Nida Nida Institute | American Bible Society
Dr. Dan Wallace
historical Truth Magazine

Category:Scholars of Koine Greek - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Leading biblical Greek scholar speaks about faith and work

I think that pastors need to know some of the basics of personal finance and plan for their future

www.christianpost.com

Oh, time for me to cook dinner. Later all