Last Day

[Rocky Wiley]

"Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done" (Mark13:30 kjv). 'This generation' must be interpreted in the context of the subject, which was the generation that witnessed all the signs that would eventually come to pass. The disciples did not witness the signs in Mark 13:14,24,25. So 'this generation' was used in a future tense and was in reference to a future generation, the phrase did not imply 'your generation'...... That's my take on it anyway.

Hay Dan,

Jesus also told his disciples that some of them would still be alive when he returned. I suppose somewhere there are at least a couple still living.

I know what you have been taught, same with me. But, all. things happened in the disciples generation. As stated above, Jesus told the Pharisees that judgment would come upon their generation.

If one can't see it, I understand. But, my prayer is that all these prophecy teachers will some day study God's word for what it says. The Jews did not believe Jesus was their Messiah, and Christians can't believe what Jesus said.

 

[Trumpeter]

Trump,
You are right, there are many interpretations that man give to scripture. One will need to check those intepretations out to see if they be true or not. For example:

Jesus is speaking to the scribes and Pharisees:

Mat 23:34 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:
Mat 23:35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.
Mat 23:36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.

For proper interpretation we ask:
1. To whom are the comments made?
2. If we know to whom the comment is made, do we know who the ‘you’ is that the scripture is addressing in verse 35 and 36?

If we understand the above, then we know that ‘this generation’ Jesus is addressing is not ours but theirs.

So putting the information together, we can say that upon the scribes and Pharisees that were gathered around Jesus are the ones that judgment would be coming to.

How can someone take that information and make it say that Jesus is coming in judgment in our generation?


Another self explanatory comment from Jesus is:

Mat 13:47 Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind:
Mat 13:48 Which, when it was full, they drew to shore, and sat down, and gathered the good into vessels, but cast the bad away.
Mat 13:49 So shall it be at the end of the age: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
Mat 13:50 And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Jesus is speaking to his disciples about judgment day. Notice that the wicked are gathered up and cast into the fire. The good are kept.

Most prophecy teachers say the good are taken and the evil are left behind. Who is right, Jesus or man?

Over and over man will change scripture to fit what they want it to say, and there are many people who just accept it for fact, never checking it out for themselves.

Trump, I ask you not to accept everything you are told. Be a Berean and check it out for yourself.

Rocky,

I agree with your exegesis of Mat 23:34-36, what He said there was for them and that happened just as prophesied.




Mat 13:47 Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind:
Mat 13:48 Which, when it was full, they drew to shore, and sat down, and gathered the good into vessels, but cast the bad away.
Mat 13:49 So shall it be at the end of the age: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
Mat 13:50 And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Jesus is speaking to his disciples about judgment day.

Agreed

Notice that the wicked are gathered up and cast into the fire.

No, that's not what it says:


Mat 13:48 Which, when it was full, they drew to shore, and sat down, and gathered the good into vessels, but cast the bad away.

It says "the good are gathered" but "the bad are cast away".

Mat 13:49 So shall it be at the end of the age: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
Mat 13:50 And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

The wicked are severed, NOT gathered.

The good are kept.

No, it says the good are gathered.


Mat 13:48 Which, when it was full, they drew to shore, and sat down, and gathered the good into vessels, but cast the bad away.

Most prophecy teachers say the good are taken and the evil are left behind. Who is right, Jesus or man?

After showing you what the scripture says, I would have to agree with what most prophecy teachers say. And of course, Jesus is right, not man.

Over and over man will change scripture to fit what they want it to say, and there are many people who just accept it for fact, never checking it out for themselves.

As I have just shown you, this is what you have done with these verses.

Trump, I ask you not to accept everything you are told. Be a Berean and check it out for yourself.

Rocky, I don't accept anything I am told about the Word of God from man.

I am a Berean and I let the Holy Spirit be my interpreter.


2Pe 1:19 And so we have the prophetic word confirmed, which you do well to heed as a light that shines in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts;

2Pe 1:20 knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation,

2Pe 1:21 for prophecy never came by the will of man, but holy men of God spoke [as they were] moved by the Holy Spirit.

God bless.

"Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done" (Mark13:30 kjv). 'This generation' must be interpreted in the context of the subject, which was the generation that witnessed all the signs that would eventually come to pass. The disciples did not witness the signs in Mark 13:14,24,25. So 'this generation' was used in a future tense and was in reference to a future generation, the phrase did not imply 'your generation'...... That's my take on it anyway.

Amen Dan, spoken like a true Berean.

 

[Brothertom]

Years ago, I looked upon the Harvest, I only thought about reaping the wheat; Evangelism; seeing the lost around the globe saved & born again.
"Jesus said to them, “My food is to do the will of Him who sent Me, and to finish His work. Do you not say, ‘There are still four months and then comes the harvest’? Behold, I say to you, lift up your eyes and look at the fields, for they are already white for harvest!
And he who reaps receives wages, and gathers fruit for eternal life, that both he who sows and he who reaps may rejoice together."
Then, the Lord gave me a vision concerning this. I was taken away in the Spirit, & found my self in the embrace of God above the Earth, looking downward upon her, flying gently, orbiting the Earth while embraced by the Father. This was filled with Joy & peace & the manifest love of God, centered in His Glory.
This however, was a Word, a vision. The Earth was not the Earth we live on as it is; it was a wheat field. There were no cities, mountains or rivers....just beautiful, flowing, golden wheat, gently moving in a wind, saturated by a glowing sun, with bright blue skies above, as we circled above every Continent there is.
Then, the Lord spoke: "IT'S HARVEST TIME!"
The vision ended. I then was compelled to go to the Word about the Harvest, & was led to this:
"He answered and said to them: “He who sows the good seed is the Son of Man. The field is the world, the good seeds are the sons of the kingdom, but the tares are the sons of the wicked one.
The enemy who sowed them is the devil, the "THE HARVEST IS THE END OF THE AGE!", and the reapers are the angels. Therefore as the tares are gathered and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of this age.
The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness, and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Then the righteous will shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears to hear, let him hear!"..Matthew 13.
The Harvest does include the Salvation of many, but that is only a PART of what the Harvest is. The Harvest is a time of Separation: a time of DIVISION.
"Do not think that I came to bring peace on earth. I did not come to bring peace but a sword. For I have come to ‘set a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law’; and ‘a man’s enemies will be those of his own household.
He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me. And he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me. And he who does not take his cross and follow after Me is not worthy of Me. He who finds his life will lose it, and he who loses his life for My sake will find it."
Once the Lord spoke to me in an audible way: "DO YOU REALLY WANT ME?". It is the question of the Universe, a lifetime word; always present. This is the question given to all men, above any other. Do we really want Jesus for who He is, above all that His blessings may do for us, above any loves on the Earth, above the love we have for our children, our spouses, our futures, any possession, anything in life itself.
The signs of the last days are not Godliness & Peace, but Deception & a selfish falling away from the living God. I am beginning my 5th decade of Spirit filled life...[ with much failing & sinfulness...I live on mercy..] & my amazement is in those I have known, with sweet fellowship in the halls of the Kingdom, who are no more serving God. Some have flat out denied Him, & are proud that they are "enlightened"...they are the soulless dead now. Some have adapted the deadly "ME" faith, where anything & everything centers around their happiness & prosperity, & some have joined the Christian Club, where faith is compartmentalized to meetings, tithes & social outlets that give the Lord Lip Service, but deny Him living a merciless, selfish life.
Where is the True Church, the HOLY REMNANT?....It is Harvest Time, & they are being Divided. They are under the Earth now, having been put to death by the Lord Himself for a seed MUST fall into the ground & DIE.....BEFORE it bears much fruit. The only TRUE life, is Resurrection life. The only true life, is resurrection life.
All of the rest is not true. It may look like wheat, but it cannot taste like wheat; in truth, it is a poison; it will kill you.
THIS IS HAPPENING NOW! TODAY! PERILOUS TIMES! SOBER TIMES! DANGEROUS TIMES! and very soon...the sorrows of the Great Tribulation will descend suddenly upon us, & the Anti-Christ, the murderous beast will be revealed to all. [ Osama Bin Laden, who I have met, along with his sorcerer false prophet in North Africa..]
Even those who possess the Holy Spirit MUST be tested in this HARVEST. Are you a wise Virgin? 5 were not out of the Ten...They had no oil to bright their lamps to SEE the path in the Dark Night....The End of the Age...THE HARVEST....The Time of the great separation..culminating in the worship of the Anti-Christ as God Himself...or....be beheaded. I know that I will be, for the Lord has shown me.
This doesn't mean that I have made it; I have not...I must endure to the END, & it is possible that my name could be blotted out of the book of Life.
"These things says the Amen, the Faithful and True Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God: “I know your works, that you are neither cold nor hot. I could wish you were cold or hot. So then, because you are lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will vomit you out of My mouth. '..[ This scares me..]
Because you say, ‘I am rich, have become wealthy, and have need of nothing’—and do not know that you are wretched, miserable, poor, blind, and naked . I counsel you to buy from Me gold refined in the fire, that you may be rich; and white garments, that you may be clothed, that the shame of your nakedness may not be revealed; and anoint your eyes with eye salve, that you may see.
As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten. Therefore be zealous and repent!"
We do not have long; a very few years left; possibly LESS than 3 years before the most terrible of times come....along with the most glorious of times....& the most exalted holy Body the world has ever seen...filled with power & goodness, beaming as the sun....along with the many sorrows of war, destruction & famine.
"Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life."
"The Harvest is the END OF THE AGE."

excerpt from "THE HARVEST...."...http://brideinthewilderness.blogspot.com/2013/05/the-harvest-of-god-it-is-end-of-age.html#comment-form

 

[iamlamad]

I find that all pre-tribbers have to divorce the rapture from the resurrection.
This is how they deceptively get to a pre-trib rapture.
*******
But every time the Rapture is hinted at, it is ALWAYS WITH the resurrection.
1 Thessalonians 4:16-18 for example.
Pre-tribbers have no wiggle room after fibs like this.
*******
Jesus himself stated that he comes immediately AFTER the tribulation. Matthew 24:29
He also stated that we are not entitled to our own opinions.
John 12:48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him:
the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.
*******
PeterAV
Every word of God is pure:

How can anyone divorce two events that will happen microseconds apart? I really don't think any pretribber does this anyway.
There is no need to do it. We need no wriggle room. Some are very confused about the "1st resurrection" in Rev, 20, thinking that no resurrection can come before it, else how could John have called it "first." It is not first in counting, as in 1-2-3, it is first in HONOR. This is proven because JEsus was the firstfruits of this SAME 1st resurrection. those Elders that rose with Jesus were also a part of this same resurrection.

OF COURSE Jesus comes right after the 7th vial that ends the "trib" or 70th week, but no IMMEDIATELY after; there will be TIME for the wedding and supper in heaven BEFORE He gets on the white horse. No pretribber denies this! We BELIEVE this. It is posttribbers that must rearrange: for they will of certainty MISS the wedding. Exactly, no OWN opinions! John tells us the wedding and supper are IN HEAVEN. Many people who have blessed to visit heaven tell us they SAW the tables all ready us. Wait - I cannot use "us" for you will not be there: for Pretribbers.

I will probably not even THINK of a posttribber while I am enjoying this amazing wedding supper!

Lamad

 

[PeterAV]

Hay Dan,

Jesus also told his disciples that some of them would still be alive when he returned. I suppose somewhere there are at least a couple still living.

I know what you have been taught, same with me. But, all. things happened in the disciples generation. As stated above, Jesus told the Pharisees that judgment would come upon their generation.

If one can't see it, I understand. But, my prayer is that all these prophecy teachers will some day study God's word for what it says. The Jews did not believe Jesus was their Messiah, and Christians can't believe what Jesus said.

Yes, there seems to be grounds for John the Apostle to yet be alive. He might be one of the two witnesses?

How can anyone divorce two events that will happen microseconds apart? I really don't think any pretribber does this anyway.
There is no need to do it. We need no wriggle room. Some are very confused about the "1st resurrection" in Rev, 20, thinking that no resurrection can come before it, else how could John have called it "first." It is not first in counting, as in 1-2-3, it is first in HONOR. This is proven because JEsus was the firstfruits of this SAME 1st resurrection. those Elders that rose with Jesus were also a part of this same resurrection.

OF COURSE Jesus comes right after the 7th vial that ends the "trib" or 70th week, but no IMMEDIATELY after; there will be TIME for the wedding and supper in heaven BEFORE He gets on the white horse. No pretribber denies this! We BELIEVE this. It is posttribbers that must rearrange: for they will of certainty MISS the wedding. Exactly, no OWN opinions! John tells us the wedding and supper are IN HEAVEN. Many people who have blessed to visit heaven tell us they SAW the tables all ready us. Wait - I cannot use "us" for you will not be there: for Pretribbers.

I will probably not even THINK of a posttribber while I am enjoying this amazing wedding supper!

Lamad

You could solve the whole issue by quoting the Bible verse that clearly shows a secret, pre-tribulational rapture before the first trump.
Prediction? No verse, just wiggle, wiggle.
*******
That is because there is none.
Immediately after the tribulation...
at the last trump...
After the man of sin be revealed...
after the falling away....
Paul and John used the same post tribulational in Isaiah 25:8 verse to show when Jesus comes.
context : moon confounded, and the sun ashamed 24:23
Jesus concurs: Matthew 24:29 sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light
*******
See how the Bible backs up the Bible?
*******
PeterAV
Every word of God is pure:
The wedding is a POST tribulational event.
Check it out.

 

[Dan57]

Hay Dan,

Jesus also told his disciples that some of them would still be alive when he returned. I suppose somewhere there are at least a couple still living.I

Yes, there seems to be grounds for John the Apostle to yet be alive. He might be one of the two witnesses?

No offense, but that sounds like nonsense to me. John is dead, there is no immortality in our flesh bodies, which is why none of us have ever seen any 2000 year old men. If it were true, perhaps a couple of the original disciples might stumble across this forum and be kind enough to answer a few questions? But I'm quite certain that all the apostles have moved on to greener pastures now.

Imo, Jesus was referring to the some (3 disciples) who witness his transfiguration (Matthew 16:28, Mark 9:1, Luke 9:27). They were simply given a glimpse of the Kingdom and the glory of Christ.

"But I tell you of a truth, there be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the kingdom of God. And it came to pass about an eight days after these sayings, he took Peter and John and James, and went up into a mountain to pray. And as he prayed, the fashion of his countenance was altered, and his raiment was white and glistering. And, behold, there talked with him two men, which were Moses and Elias: Who appeared in glory, and spake of his decease which he should accomplish at Jerusalem. But Peter and they that were with him were heavy with sleep: and when they were awake, they saw his glory, and the two men that stood with him" (Luke 9:27-32).

 

[Trumpeter]

Please define "last day" in all these verses.

lamad

Greetings all,

The last day is The Day of The Lord.

1Th 5:2 For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night.



From God The Father: Judgments from Heaven shall come. The sun, moon and stars shall not give their light. All foundations shall be shaken and brought low. All will come to pass as it is written, for The Lord’s Day comes as a thief, but His judgment and wrath come as a multitude of thunder, lightning, raging seas and crumbling rock.
I hear now the multitudes, asking, ‘What is the said interpretation of The Lord’s judgment? These things are much too terrifying to be true.’ I say to them, behold all creation. Is it not beyond comprehension? Can any man number the galaxies in the heavens or the stars therein? What of the love of The Son of man? His love is also beyond imagining. Take these two, as one prepared for mankind. Then cry to The Lord, ‘Oh Lord, you are indeed Almighty and Sovereign. To you, oh Lord, is the only true wisdom and understanding. Your ways are beyond knowing and your power beyond belief.’ Live by faith! Says The Lord. Come together and reason, and you shall find your knowledge has come to nothing. Know only that I AM, and in this will be your wisdom.
If all the mighty works of The Lord are broken down into mere parables and metaphors, then you are lost, forever consumed by talk and confusion, for this is the way of the evil one. Listen and hear, oh peoples of the earth, the Day of The Lord is upon you. The Lord, your God, shall move Heaven and earth to find you, and you shall see Him come... Indeed, every eye shall see and know. As in the day of Moses in Egypt, also shall it be in the Day to come. Know this, the judgment on Egypt is a mere drop of rain, only a single crack of thunder, compared with what The Lord has prepared for His sleeping children of this evil world. Awake, all you sleepers! Your time of slumber is at its end. Awake and come to your God, and embrace your Savior. Turn away, and embrace he who is against Me, to your own eternal destruction.




I AM...

In Me find your life eternal.


I am The First and The Last, Maker of all things...

To whom all things are known and ordained,
And written in everlasting stone.
Amen.


Excerpt from:
The Great Day of the Lord
http://trumpetcallofgodonline.com/index.php5?title=The_Great_Day_of_the_Lord

 

[PeterAV]

No offense, but that sounds like nonsense to me. John is dead, there is no immortality in our flesh bodies, which is why none of us have ever seen any 2000 year old men. If it were true, perhaps a couple of the original disciples might stumble across this forum and be kind enough to answer a few questions? But I'm quite certain that all the apostles have moved on to greener pastures now.

Imo, Jesus was referring to the some (3 disciples) who witness his transfiguration (Matthew 16:28, Mark 9:1, Luke 9:27). They were simply given a glimpse of the Kingdom and the glory of Christ.

"But I tell you of a truth, there be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the kingdom of God. And it came to pass about an eight days after these sayings, he took Peter and John and James, and went up into a mountain to pray. And as he prayed, the fashion of his countenance was altered, and his raiment was white and glistering. And, behold, there talked with him two men, which were Moses and Elias: Who appeared in glory, and spake of his decease which he should accomplish at Jerusalem. But Peter and they that were with him were heavy with sleep: and when they were awake, they saw his glory, and the two men that stood with him" (Luke 9:27-32).

Yes, that verse might be; but the verse you left out shows that John yet alive is tarrying until he comes.
And this verse is after the resurrection of Jesus Christ! And this verse is after the mount of transfiguration.
This is why the other disciples were quick to see that he may never die.
But he will die, probably as one of the two witnesses.
*******
John 21:21-23
Peter seeing saith to Jesus, Lord, and what shall this man do ?
Jesus saith unto him, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee? follow thou me.
Then went this saying abroad among the brethren, that that disciple should not die:
yet Jesus said not unto him, He shall not die; but, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee?
*******
PeterAV
Every word of God is pure:

 

[veteran]

John 6:39,John 6:40,John 6:44,John 6:54,John 11:24

In each of the passages we see one thing in common, the last day is when the resurrection will occur. These scriptures should shape our theology concerning when the rapture will take place (why) because the rapture, and the resurrection of the dead happen in close relationship to each other.

“For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.” (1 Thessalonians 4:16–17, AV)

Contrary to the clear teaching of the scriptures we see that some teachers still teach that there is a rapture that occurs prior to the tribulation

"Pretribulationism holds that the Rapture of the church occurs before the Tribulation, during which the church, Christ’s bride, will be in heaven, standing before His judgment seat (2 Cor. 5:10) and preparing for His return to earth.25 Pretribulationism holds that Christ’s coming for His saints will be in the air and before the Tribulation; after the Tribulation, Christ will come with His saints and to earth to reign for a thousand years. Charles Ryrie (see WYSKAR), John Walvoord (1910–2002—see RQ and BHT), and Dwight Pentecost (see TTC) expound this view."

Geisler, N. L. (2005). Systematic theology, volume four: church, last things (p. 612). Minneapolis, MN: Bethany House Publishers.

How can the rapture / resurrection take place prior to the tribulation if the resurrection is suppose to take place on the last day. 7 years is a period of days, a rapture before the tribulation is not possible.

You are correct. God's Word does not teach any idea other than Christ's coming and gathering of His Church on the final day of this present world. John 5:28-29 also reveals that, as do many other Scriptures.

The problem with those who fail to heed that is because they are listening to pop doctrines of men, and not God in His Word as written.

 

[iamlamad]

Yes, there seems to be grounds for John the Apostle to yet be alive. He might be one of the two witnesses?

You could solve the whole issue by quoting the Bible verse that clearly shows a secret, pre-tribulational rapture before the first trump.
Prediction? No verse, just wiggle, wiggle.
*******
That is because there is none.
Immediately after the tribulation...
at the last trump...
After the man of sin be revealed...
after the falling away....
Paul and John used the same post tribulational in Isaiah 25:8 verse to show when Jesus comes.
context : moon confounded, and the sun ashamed 24:23
Jesus concurs: Matthew 24:29 sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light
*******
See how the Bible backs up the Bible?
*******
PeterAV
Every word of God is pure:

The wedding is a POST tribulational event.
Check it out.

OF COURSE it is post tribulational - but is it PRE-coming on the white horse. That is why posttribbers will miss it.

OF COURSE the bible backs up the bible. But some put two verses together as if they fit together, when they don't. For example, 1 Thes. 4:17 and the Matthew gathering.

If you want a verse, just read about the great crowd too large to number. They are certainly seen in heaven before the first trumpet judgment.

After the man of sin be revealed...
after the falling away....


You err in not understanding this passage. WHAT comes after the man of sin is revealed? WHAT must happen before he can be revealed? The THEME of this passage is the gathering, but as the KJV translated it, there is no gathering. Paul's argument is a simple one. Some folks were VERY upset, having read a letter or heard a false prophecy that the day of the Lord had started and they were now IN the Day. If Paul had taught them of a posttrib rapture, they would have no reason to be upset - they would know that they must hold out for 7 years and it would all be over. On the other hand, if Paul taught them of a PRETRIB rapture and now they think they are IN the day of the Lord, then obviously they MISSED the rapture and were left behind. Paul's argument is simple: when somone SEES the man of sin revealed, then they can KNOW they are IN the Day of the Lord, and it has started.

BUT: before he can be revealed, there is one restrining him from being revealed: it must be taken out of the way or departed or removed. Therefore, when the man of sin IS revealed, we can know that the one restraining him has been taken out of the way or departed. In verse 3-B we see that the man of sin IS REVEALED (in Paul's argument) so verse 3A MUST be the one restraining removed. It can be no other way. Is it no wonder then, that the first translators into English translated apostasia as departure?

So in verse 3, the rapture takes place, and the man of sin is revealed. Thus Paul's theme is covered. Something must come FIRST: and that is the removal of the man of sin.

 

[Guestman]

On the night before his death, Jesus told his eleven faithful apostles that "you are the ones that have stuck with me in my trials; and I make a covenant with you, just as my Father has made a covenant with me, for a kingdom, that you may eat and drink (symbolically) at my table in my kingdom and sit on thrones to judge the (symbolic) twelve tribes of Israel."(Luke 22:28-30)


The eleven faithful apostles were the 1st to be given the opportunity for the "kingdom" by means of a covenant or contract. This "kingdom" is a heavenly government that was created by Jehovah God to restore genuine peace to the earth, peace lost in the original rebellion in the Garden of Eden (Gen 3:1-6) and then a restoration of it by having the ' woman's seed' (Gen 3:15, who later became Jesus Christ) "bruise the serpent (Satan) in the head", along with his "seed" or followers.


Some 65 years later after Jesus statement to his apostles in 33 C.E. "for a kingdom", the exact number was revealed as 144,000 chosen from among imperfect mankind "bought from the earth" (not just fleshly Jews, but "out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation....to rule as kings [and priests] over the earth", Rev 5:9, 10) that would compose it, along with Jesus as its primary king.(Rev 7:4; 14:1)


For anyone to be "kings and priests" to reign in heaven, these have to be selected by Jehovah God.(Matt 20:23) After which, he then seals them "with the promised holy spirit, which is a token in advance of our inheritance, for the purpose of releasing God's own possession (of becoming a spirit son of God)."(Eph 1:13, 14) These are thus anointed, now having a "heavenly calling".(Heb 3:1)

None of the loyal ones to Jehovah God who died prior to Jesus were chosen as "kings and priests" and raised to heavenly life, for Jesus even said that "no man has ascended into heaven, but he that descended from heaven, the Son of man."(John 3:13)


And the apostle Paul noted that the "door" to heavenly life was not opened until after Jesus death, saying: "Therefore, brothers, since we have boldness for the way into the holy place (heaven itself) by the blood of Jesus, which he inaugurated for us as a new and living way through the curtain, that is, his flesh."(Heb 10:19, 20) This opening to heavenly life was seen when God caused "the curtain of the sanctuary (between the Holy and Most Holy) was rent in two, from top to bottom" immediately upon Jesus death.(Matt 27:50, 51)


But Paul also noted that "the holy spirit makes it plain that the way into the holy place (heaven itself before God's presence) had not yet been made manifest while the first tent was standing."(Heb 9:8) On the day of Pentecost (ten days after Jesus had ascended to the Father), Peter told the assembled Jews in Jerusalem that "actually David did not ascend to the heavens."(Acts 2:34) And at Pentecost were the 1st ones selected for the "heavenly calling" by being anointed holy spirit.(Acts 2:4)


All those of the "great cloud of witnesses" (Heb 12:1), those all the way back to Abel that are discussed in the Hebrew Scriptures ("Old Testament") and Paul mentions at Hebrews 11, will never go to heaven, but look forward to everlasting life on a paradise earth.(Ps 37:11, 29)


Jesus established when those who are "joint heirs with Christ" (Rom 8:17) would receive their "heavenly calling", saying that "this is the will of him that sent me, that I should lose nothing out of all that he has given me but that I should resurrect it at the last day."(John 6:39)


When did the "last day" begin ? It began when Jesus was installed as king of God's kingdom in 1914 (also called Jesus "promised presence" at 2 Peter 3:3, 4), with his first "order of the day" being the casting out of Satan and his demons ' hurling them down to the earth.'(Rev 12:7-9)

Jesus had told his eleven faithful apostles, that "I am going my way (to heaven) to prepare a place for you."(John 14:2) The heavens had to be "prepared", cleansed 1st before Jesus began resurrecting those "worthy of the kingdom of God".(2 Thess 1:5)

 

[veteran]

No, that's not how the "last day" of John 6:39 is meant.

It is meant ONLY for the final day of this present world when Jesus Christ returns to defeat all His enemies here on earth and take de facto reign over all... nations. That day... has NOT yet happened.

Do we see today some nations still denying Christ Jesus as The Saviour? Yes, of course we do. And it's because Christ Jesus has not returned yet.

Not only that, but it's Biblical ignorance to even begin to think that "resurrect" idea has happened already today!!! That will occur ONLY at Christ's second coming, which is still... future to us.

 

[Arnie Manitoba]

Guestman.... set aside the JW books ... they are just made up stories by Russel and Rutherford.

 

[Guestman]

No, that's not how the "last day" of John 6:39 is meant.

It is meant ONLY for the final day of this present world when Jesus Christ returns to defeat all His enemies here on earth and take de facto reign over all... nations. That day... has NOT yet happened.

Do we see today some nations still denying Christ Jesus as The Saviour? Yes, of course we do. And it's because Christ Jesus has not returned yet.

Not only that, but it's Biblical ignorance to even begin to think that "resurrect" idea has happened already today!!! That will occur ONLY at Christ's second coming, which is still... future to us.

If one reads the Bible carefully without bias, it is possible to discern key details from the Bible, allowing the Bible to speak for itself rather than imposing one's personal whims on it. The expression "last day" does not fit a specific 24 hour event, but can be seen as an extended period of time, just as the seven "creative" days of Genesis 1 and 2 are not 24 hours long but are noted as several thousand years of length.(Heb 4:1-6)


For example, at Revelation 1:10, it speaks of John being transported in the future to "the Lord's day". This "day" is not a 24 hour period but covers from the time Jesus was installed as king of God's kingdom in 1914 down to the end of his millennial reign (Rev 20:6), events that the apostle John was privileged to see by means of God's spirit, such as the war in heaven and the ouster of Satan, the destruction of Babylon the Great and the kings of the earth and their armies, the binding and abyssing of Satan, the resurrection of the dead (who are in Hades or mankind's common grave, Rev 20:13) during Christ's Thousand Year reign.


Hence, "the last day" that Jesus spoke of at John 6:39, 40, 44 and 54 is not a 24 hour day that will result in the resurrection of the "chosen ones", but began with Jesus being crowned king of God's kingdom down to the end of "the system of things" ("end of the world", KJV, Matt 24:3). So from the time Jesus cleansed the heavens with the ouster of Satan and his demons as part of his ' preparation ' (John 14:2, 3), he could then begin resurrecting those of the 144,000 "chosen ones" who had already died.


The resurrection of those still living of the "chosen ones" of 144,000 would be brought to completion during the "great tribulation"(Matt 24:21), a 2 part event beginning with the destruction of Babylon the Great, the world empire of false religion at the hands of the "ten horns", all the political governments of the earth under the direction of the "scarlet-colored wild beast" at that time, the United Nations (Rev 17:3, 5, 12, 16) and then the final phase of the annihilation of the "ten horns" (the political governments) at the hands of Jesus Christ and his heavenly angelic armies (Rev 19:11-14, 19-21) called Armageddon.(Rev 16:14, 16)


Jesus said concerning those still alive, remaining of the "chosen ones": "And he (Jesus as the Son of man) will send forth his angels with a great trumpet sound, and they will gather his chosen ones together from the four winds, from one extremity of the heavens to their other extremity."(Matt 24:31) This is at the moment that ' the Son of man appears in heaven', whereby ' the tribes of the earth beat themselves in lamentation' because Armageddon is about to begin.(Matt 24:30)


Their resurrection, that occurs after the destruction of Babylon the Great (world empire of false religion, Rev 18:8) and just before Armageddon begins ("war of the great day of God the Almighty", Rev 16:14), completes those who are selected and "sealed" for the "kingdom of God".(Rev 7:4, see also 1 Thess 4:17)

 

[veteran]

If one reads the Bible carefully without bias, it is possible to discern key details from the Bible, allowing the Bible to speak for itself rather than imposing one's personal whims on it. The expression "last day" does not fit a specific 24 hour event, but can be seen as an extended period of time, just as the seven "creative" days of Genesis 1 and 2 are not 24 hours long but are noted as several thousand years of length.(Heb 4:1-6)

For example, at Revelation 1:10, it speaks of John being transported in the future to "the Lord's day". This "day" is not a 24 hour period but covers from the time Jesus was installed as king of God's kingdom in 1914 down to the end of his millennial reign (Rev 20:6), events that the apostle John was privileged to see by means of God's spirit, such as the war in heaven and the ouster of Satan, the destruction of Babylon the Great and the kings of the earth and their armies, the binding and abyssing of Satan, the resurrection of the dead (who are in Hades or mankind's common grave, Rev 20:13) during Christ's Thousand Year reign.

Hence, "the last day" that Jesus spoke of at John 6:39, 40, 44 and 54 is not a 24 hour day that will result in the resurrection of the "chosen ones", but began with Jesus being crowned king of God's kingdom down to the end of "the system of things" ("end of the world", KJV, Matt 24:3). So from the time Jesus cleansed the heavens with the ouster of Satan and his demons as part of his ' preparation ' (John 14:2, 3), he could then begin resurrecting those of the 144,000 "chosen ones" who had already died.

The resurrection of those still living of the "chosen ones" of 144,000 would be brought to completion during the "great tribulation"(Matt 24:21), a 2 part event beginning with the destruction of Babylon the Great, the world empire of false religion at the hands of the "ten horns", all the political governments of the earth under the direction of the "scarlet-colored wild beast" at that time, the United Nations (Rev 17:3, 5, 12, 16) and then the final phase of the annihilation of the "ten horns" (the political governments) at the hands of Jesus Christ and his heavenly angelic armies (Rev 19:11-14, 19-21) called Armageddon.(Rev 16:14, 16)

Jesus said concerning those still alive, remaining of the "chosen ones": "And he (Jesus as the Son of man) will send forth his angels with a great trumpet sound, and they will gather his chosen ones together from the four winds, from one extremity of the heavens to their other extremity."(Matt 24:31) This is at the moment that ' the Son of man appears in heaven', whereby ' the tribes of the earth beat themselves in lamentation' because Armageddon is about to begin.(Matt 24:30)

Their resurrection, that occurs after the destruction of Babylon the Great (world empire of false religion, Rev 18:8) and just before Armageddon begins ("war of the great day of God the Almighty", Rev 16:14), completes those who are selected and "sealed" for the "kingdom of God".(Rev 7:4, see also 1 Thess 4:17)

You should take YOUR OWN ADVICE then, and quit trying to apply Scripture like John 6:39 to some other time just to fit the doctrines of men you've chosen to follow instead.

How would you put that into 'your' words? Let's see: "If one reads the Bible carefully without bias..." they will easily see that John 6:39 is about the future when Jesus' second coming happens.

 

[Guestman]

You should take YOUR OWN ADVICE then, and quit trying to apply Scripture like John 6:39 to some other time just to fit the doctrines of men you've chosen to follow instead.

How would you put that into 'your' words? Let's see: "If one reads the Bible carefully without bias..." they will easily see that John 6:39 is about the future when Jesus' second coming happens.

Let's consider the evidence. At John 6:44, Jesus says: "No man can come to me unless the Father, who sent me, draws him; and I will resurrect him in the last day." Jesus then narrows it down as to whom he is speaking about in verse 45, saying: "It is written in the Prophets, ' And they will all be taught by Jehovah.' Everyone that has heard from the Father and has learned comes to me." Where was Jesus quoting from and who are the "they" ? From Isaiah 54:13.

Isaiah 54 is speaking about a "barren woman that did not give birth", but then suddenly has numerous "sons".(Isa 54:1) These "sons" are so numerous that Jehovah has said: "Make the place of your tent more spacious. And let them stretch out the tent cloths of your grand tabernacle. Do not hold back. Lengthen out your tent cords, and make those tent pins of yours strong."(Isa 54:2) Who is this "woman" that all of sudden gains numerous "sons" ?

This is the same "woman" seen at Genesis 3:15 (as well at Rev. 12:1), from which the "promised seed" (who is Jesus Christ, Gal 3:16) comes forth, Jehovah God's body of loyal heavenly angels. However, more "sons" are to be added. But the ones who are to be selected as "chosen ones" must allow themselves to be "taught by Jehovah."

Hence, these are ones chosen as prospective members of the "kingdom", anointed with holy spirit as a "token in advance of (the) inheritance" (of serving as kings and priests in God's heavenly kingdom).(Eph 1:13, 14) When did the selection for the "heavenly calling" begin ?(Heb 3:1) On Pentecost 33 C.E. with the outpouring of holy spirit on those in Jerusalem.(Acts 2:4) Revelation 7:4 and 14:1 identifies that God has numbered 144,000 to be "kings and priests" of the "kingdom", a specific number.(Rev 1:6)

Thus, the "they" at John 6:45 are those who are "sons" of the symbolic "woman", "sons of the kingdom" who are selected by Jehovah God as prospective members of the "kingdom".(2 Thess 2:13) These become part of the "Jerusalem above" (Gal 4:26), for the apostle Paul afterward quotes from Isaiah 54:1 to show this to be the case.(Gal 4:27) Any who defect are replaced with others whom Jehovah chooses, in order for the "full number" to be filled.(Rom 11:25)

Paul further says that those who "belong to the Christ" are resurrected "during his presence" ("presence", Greek parousia, 1 Cor 15:23) as immortal spirit "sons of God."(1 Cor 15:52-54) When did Jesus "presence" begin ? In 1914 and is also the beginning of the "conclusion of the system of things".("end of the world", KJV, Matt 24:3, also called the "last days" at 2 Pet 3:3, 4)

He added that as the second phase of the "great tribulation" is beginning, the battle of Armageddon, that "he will send forth his angels with a great trumpet sound, and they will gather his chosen ones (the remaining living ones of the "sons of the kingdom") from the four winds, from one extremity of the heavens to their other extremity."(Matt 24:31)

 

[veteran]

Let's consider the evidence. At John 6:44, Jesus says: "No man can come to me unless the Father, who sent me, draws him; and I will resurrect him in the last day." Jesus then narrows it down as to whom he is speaking about in verse 45, saying: "It is written in the Prophets, ' And they will all be taught by Jehovah.' Everyone that has heard from the Father and has learned comes to me." Where was Jesus quoting from and who are the "they" ? From Isaiah 54:13.

Isaiah 54 is speaking about a "barren woman that did not give birth", but then suddenly has numerous "sons".(Isa 54:1) These "sons" are so numerous that Jehovah has said: "Make the place of your tent more spacious. And let them stretch out the tent cloths of your grand tabernacle. Do not hold back. Lengthen out your tent cords, and make those tent pins of yours strong."(Isa 54:2) Who is this "woman" that all of sudden gains numerous "sons" ?

In John 6:45, our Lord Jesus was also quoting from Scripture like Isaiah 2:3-4; Jer.31:33-40 and Micah 4:2-3, which is Christ's Milennium reign timing.

It's the same idea I covered with your 1 Peter 2 reference in another thread with the Book of Hosea quoted by Peter.

In Isaiah 54, it's about an election among Israel (because of verses like Isaiah 54:3 with their inheriting the Gentiles).

In Luke 23 our Lord Jesus used the 'blessed are the barren' metaphor of Isa.54 in the opposite sense to the daughters of Jerusalem and their children in rebellion. He used it as a warning to those.

But for His elect, the isa.54 metaphor is about how they will stay... faithful to Him all the way to the end of this world. And that elect remnant seed of Israel that believe will inherit the believing Gentiles.


So..., can one of the seed of Israel fall away? YES!!!

 

[Arnie Manitoba]

Some things for the anti-rapture folks to ponder



The locusts are torturing everybody on earth except the 144,000 sealed ... so where is the christian church in Rev 9:4

Is God causing this agony against Christ's Church Rev 9:5

Does this sound like the glorious hope we are to have Rev 9:6

A third of mankind is killed in Rev 9:15

The rest of mankind still alive sure do not sound like Christians in Rev 9:20

The rest of mankind still alive sure do not sound like Christians in Rev 9:21

It would appear the Christians are no longer here on earth .

The only way the anti-rapture folks can get around that snag is to bastardize the scriptures and claim that the 144,000 sealed from the 12 tribes of Israel are actually the christian gentile church .

But at the same time the anti-rapture folks can never explain where the rest of the 1.3 Billion Christians disappeared to.

Making pre-trib doctrine work is a difficult task , and making an airtight case is not possible .... but it has the least amount of snags and does not require endless bastardization of scriptures.

.......

I will keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come on the whole world to test the inhabitants of the earth

Blessed is the one who reads aloud the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear it and take to heart what is written in it, because the time is near.

I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this scroll: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to that person the plagues described in this scroll.

And if anyone takes words away from this scroll of prophecy, God will take away from that person any share in the tree of life and in the Holy City

Rev 3:10
Rev 1:3
Rev 22:18
Rev 22:19

 

[Trumpeter]

Some things for the anti-rapture folks to ponder



The locusts are torturing everybody on earth except the 144,000 sealed ... so where is the christian church in Rev 9:4

Is God causing this agony against Christ's Church Rev 9:5

Does this sound like the glorious hope we are to have Rev 9:6

A third of mankind is killed in Rev 9:15

The rest of mankind still alive sure do not sound like Christians in Rev 9:20

The rest of mankind still alive sure do not sound like Christians in Rev 9:21

It would appear the Christians are no longer here on earth .

The only way the anti-rapture folks can get around that snag is to bastardize the scriptures and claim that the 144,000 sealed from the 12 tribes of Israel are actually the christian gentile church .

But at the same time the anti-rapture folks can never explain where the rest of the 1.3 Billion Christians disappeared to.

Making pre-trib doctrine work is a difficult task , and making an airtight case is not possible .... but it has the least amount of snags and does not require endless bastardization of scriptures.

.......

I will keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come on the whole world to test the inhabitants of the earth

Blessed is the one who reads aloud the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear it and take to heart what is written in it, because the time is near.

I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this scroll: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to that person the plagues described in this scroll.

And if anyone takes words away from this scroll of prophecy, God will take away from that person any share in the tree of life and in the Holy City

Rev 3:10
Rev 1:3
Rev 22:18
Rev 22:19

Amen Arnie,

You bring up some very good points.

It will be interesting to hear the responses from the post tribbers.

God bless.

 

[veteran]

Some things for the anti-rapture folks to ponder



The locusts are torturing everybody on earth except the 144,000 sealed ... so where is the christian church in Rev 9:4

Is God causing this agony against Christ's Church Rev 9:5

You have to read that Scripture closely, and THINK.

Rev 9:3-6
3 And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.
4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.
5 And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.
6 And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.
(KJV)

Christ is giving us a comparison there between those outside His Church, and those in Him. It is not showing that His Church has gone anywhere. If ONLY those NOT sealed by God can be stung and not killed by those locusts, then what for those in Christ Jesus? It means those with God's sealing can... be killed by them in that time. And that aligns with the Rev.12:9-17 Scripture of the serpent going after God's elect for the end to persecute Christ's Church.

Is God causing this agony against Christ's Church Rev 9:5

Once again, you have to understand what that stinging by those locusts is about per that Scripture. Later at Rev.9:17-18 we're told their power is in their MOUTHS. That means 'words' of deception is what their stinging is about. So it makes sense that those outside Christ's Church will be subject to that stinging for five months, while those in Christ will not be because of God's sealing. I mean, what do you guys think God's sealing of His for the tribulation is for??? It's so you WON'T be deceived!!!

So really Arnie, by your trying to prove a Pre-Trib Rapture theory with that Scripture, all you're actually doing is showing how you do NOT really understand that Scripture at all!