Last Day

[iamlamad]

You have to read that Scripture closely, and THINK.

Rev 9:3-6
3 And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.
4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.
5 And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.
6 And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.
(KJV)

Christ is giving us a comparison there between those outside His Church, and those in Him. It is not showing that His Church has gone anywhere. If ONLY those NOT sealed by God can be stung and not killed by those locusts, then what for those in Christ Jesus? It means those with God's sealing can... be killed by them in that time. And that aligns with the Rev.12:9-17 Scripture of the serpent going after God's elect for the end to persecute Christ's Church.


Once again, you have to understand what that stinging by those locusts is about per that Scripture. Later at Rev.9:17-18 we're told their power is in their MOUTHS. That means 'words' of deception is what their stinging is about. So it makes sense that those outside Christ's Church will be subject to that stinging for five months, while those in Christ will not be because of God's sealing. I mean, what do you guys think God's sealing of His for the tribulation is for??? It's so you WON'T be deceived!!!

So really Arnie, by your trying to prove a Pre-Trib Rapture theory with that Scripture, all you're actually doing is showing how you do NOT really understand that Scripture at all!

3 And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.
4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.
5 And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.
6 And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.

8 And they had hair as the hair of women, and their teeth were as the teeth of lions.

10 And they had tails like unto scorpions, and there were stings in their tails: and their power was to hurt men five months.

I have never yet heard a scorpion speak, nor have I ever read of a scorpion speaking. I have read of a scorpion's terrible STING. John tells us their STING is in their tails. Yes, they have teeth like a lion, but it does not mention them biting. Perhaps they bite as they sting. But John tells us their HURT is as the sting of a scorpion. Sorry, Veteran, but this is not WORDS, it is POISON injected by a stinger. It also tells us they have hair as a womans' hair, but it does NOT tell us that they act like women! We need to stick closely with what is written.

Lamad

Some things for the anti-rapture folks to ponder
...
Making pre-trib doctrine work is a difficult task , and making an airtight case is not possible .... but it has the least amount of snags and does not require endless bastardization of scriptures.
.......
I will keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come on the whole world to test the inhabitants of the earth

Blessed is the one who reads aloud the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear it and take to heart what is written in it, because the time is near.

I disagree, Arnie, it is making a posttrib rapture work that is difficult, for God is very PRE-trib and the scriptures are pretrib. The difficulty is trying to make pretrib scriptures say something different. And I think pretrib IS airtight; John saw the raptured church in heaven (Rev. 7) BEFORE he even started the 70th week. You cannot get more airtight than that.

Posttribbers have only three things they can do with this: try and say this is NOT the bride of Christ in heaven, try to say John wrote it out of sequence, and it really fits in Chapter 19, or just ignore it completely. NONE of their arguments work. It IS the raptured church, and it IS written exactly in the right place, BEFORE the 70th week begins. (The day of His wrath has come.)

Lamad

 

[Trumpeter]

3 And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.
4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.
5 And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.
6 And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.

8 And they had hair as the hair of women, and their teeth were as the teeth of lions.

10 And they had tails like unto scorpions, and there were stings in their tails: and their power was to hurt men five months.

I have never yet heard a scorpion speak, nor have I ever read of a scorpion speaking. I have read of a scorpion's terrible STING. John tells us their STING is in their tails. Yes, they have teeth like a lion, but it does not mention them biting. Perhaps they bite as they sting. But John tells us their HURT is as the sting of a scorpion. Sorry, Veteran, but this is not WORDS, it is POISON injected by a stinger. It also tells us they have hair as a womans' hair, but it does NOT tell us that they act like women! We need to stick closely with what is written.

Lamad

I disagree, Arnie, it is making a posttrib rapture work that is difficult, for God is very PRE-trib and the scriptures are pretrib. The difficulty is trying to make pretrib scriptures say something different. And I think pretrib IS airtight; John saw the raptured church in heaven (Rev. 7) BEFORE he even started the 70th week. You cannot get more airtight than that.

Posttribbers have only three things they can do with this: try and say this is NOT the bride of Christ in heaven, try to say John wrote it out of sequence, and it really fits in Chapter 19, or just ignore it completely. NONE of their arguments work. It IS the raptured church, and it IS written exactly in the right place, BEFORE the 70th week begins. (The day of His wrath has come.)

Lamad

Amen +1

 

[veteran]

I have never yet heard a scorpion speak, nor have I ever read of a scorpion speaking. I have read of a scorpion's terrible STING. John tells us their STING is in their tails. Yes, they have teeth like a lion, but it does not mention them biting. Perhaps they bite as they sting. But John tells us their HURT is as the sting of a scorpion. Sorry, Veteran, but this is not WORDS, it is POISON injected by a stinger. It also tells us they have hair as a womans' hair, but it does NOT tell us that they act like women! We need to stick closely with what is written.

Know what?? You WON'T ever hear a REAL scorpion or locust speak words. But you will.... hear these in Rev.9 because they are NOT REAL locusts or scorpions in the first place!!! Christ simply used the 'idea' of a locust and scorpion as SYMBOLS for something else. That something else they represent are MEN.


Rev 9:7
7 And the shapes of the locusts were like unto horses prepared unto battle; and on their heads were as it were crowns like gold, and their faces were as the faces of men.
(KJV)

All those words in blue are comparison type verbs.

All you're really doing is showing your ignorance of symbolic metaphor God also uses in His Holy Writ. Not being able to fathom that means you had to drop your common sense reasoning ability.

 

[Arnie Manitoba]

........ So it makes sense that those outside Christ's Church will be subject to that stinging for five months, while those in Christ will not be because of God's sealing. I mean, what do you guys think God's sealing of His for the tribulation is for??? It's so you WON'T be deceived!!!

To make that work would mean that the 144,000 from the 12 tribes of Israel are not who the bible says they are

The bible explicitly says the 144,000 are from the 12 tribes of Israel
You say NO ..... the 144,000 are the 1.3 billion Christians from all the other nations in the world

The bible says the mark is visible and placed on their foreheads
And you say the mark is invisible and inside their foreheads.

This is what you are saying .... right veteran.... ??

The bible clearly says that as Christians we are already sealed with the Holy Spirit
If we are already sealed as believers .... why the requirement of sealing of the 144,000 .... ??

 

[afaithfulone4u]

John 6:39,John 6:40,John 6:44,John 6:54,John 11:24

In each of the passages we see one thing in common, the last day is when the resurrection will occur. These scriptures should shape our theology concerning when the rapture will take place (why) because the rapture, and the resurrection of the dead happen in close relationship to each other.

“For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.” (1 Thessalonians 4:16–17, AV)

Contrary to the clear teaching of the scriptures we see that some teachers still teach that there is a rapture that occurs prior to the tribulation

"Pretribulationism holds that the Rapture of the church occurs before the Tribulation, during which the church, Christ’s bride, will be in heaven, standing before His judgment seat (2 Cor. 5:10) and preparing for His return to earth.25 Pretribulationism holds that Christ’s coming for His saints will be in the air and before the Tribulation; after the Tribulation, Christ will come with His saints and to earth to reign for a thousand years. Charles Ryrie (see WYSKAR), John Walvoord (1910–2002—see RQ and BHT), and Dwight Pentecost (see TTC) expound this view."

Geisler, N. L. (2005). Systematic theology, volume four: church, last things (p. 612). Minneapolis, MN: Bethany House Publishers.

How can the rapture / resurrection take place prior to the tribulation if the resurrection is suppose to take place on the last day. 7 years is a period of days, a rapture before the tribulation is not possible.

Who are the dead IN Christ? And where are they that they will arise?
Rev 6:9-11
9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should REST yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.
KJV

The problem is that there are TWO resurrections. There can't be a first resurrection unless there was at least another. The First resurrection are those found worthy to escape and rule and reign with Christ being the BLAMESS who were caught up and the Martyr's who refused the mark. These will come with Christ for the wrath of God where the Word of God and his body fight the armies of the ungodly nations.
Then after the 1,000 yrs the REST of the dead the MEEK who will be the saved nations brought back to life and inherit the REST of the earth outside of the Bride which is New Jerusalem when she comes down to earth in the new earth to come.

Rev 20:2-7
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.


5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished.

This{in 1-4} is the first resurrection.

6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
KJV


Zech 14:1-6
14:1 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.
6 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark:
KJV

 

[iamlamad]

Know what?? You WON'T ever hear a REAL scorpion or locust speak words. But you will.... hear these in Rev.9 because they are NOT REAL locusts or scorpions in the first place!!! Christ simply used the 'idea' of a locust and scorpion as SYMBOLS for something else. That something else they represent are MEN.


Rev 9:7
7 And the shapes of the locusts were like unto horses prepared unto battle; and on their heads were as it were crowns like gold, and their faces were as the faces of men.
(KJV)

All those words in blue are comparison type verbs.

All you're really doing is showing your ignorance of symbolic metaphor God also uses in His Holy Writ. Not being able to fathom that means you had to drop your common sense reasoning ability.

Well, since you will MISS the pretrib rapture, and since you are NOT a part of one of the tribes of Israel and WON'T be sealed, you will find you FIRST HAND that these little beasties will STING like scorpions just like the bible says they do. Go ahead and put on ear muffs or hearing protection, and see if that will stop their words, as you say. Good luck with that. Don't say you have not been warned. You will have five months of torture...all because you refuse God's way of escape, thinking you have a better plan. Well, God will allow you to have your plan.

Lamad

John 6:39,John 6:40,John 6:44,John 6:54,John 11:24

In each of the passages we see one thing in common, the last day is when the resurrection will occur. These scriptures should shape our theology concerning when the rapture will take place (why) because the rapture, and the resurrection of the dead happen in close relationship to each other.

“For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.” (1 Thessalonians 4:16–17, AV)

Contrary to the clear teaching of the scriptures we see that some teachers still teach that there is a rapture that occurs prior to the tribulation

"Pretribulationism holds that the Rapture of the church occurs before the Tribulation, during which the church, Christ’s bride, will be in heaven, standing before His judgment seat (2 Cor. 5:10) and preparing for His return to earth.25 Pretribulationism holds that Christ’s coming for His saints will be in the air and before the Tribulation; after the Tribulation, Christ will come with His saints and to earth to reign for a thousand years. Charles Ryrie (see WYSKAR), John Walvoord (1910–2002—see RQ and BHT), and Dwight Pentecost (see TTC) expound this view."

Geisler, N. L. (2005). Systematic theology, volume four: church, last things (p. 612). Minneapolis, MN: Bethany House Publishers.

How can the rapture / resurrection take place prior to the tribulation if the resurrection is suppose to take place on the last day. 7 years is a period of days, a rapture before the tribulation is not possible.

It is very simple, your "last day" is a 24 hour day. God's "last day" is an extended period of time called "the Day of the Lord." You only imagine "the" resurrection takes place on the "last day." You think it is a one shot deal. You are wrong on all accounts. Jesus was the firstfruits of the first resurrection, and that took place around 32 AD. How can you explain that - if there is just ONE resurrection? Then, there were those who rose with JEsus, elders of the Old Covenant. They were the 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, etc of the FIRST resurrection. then, the dead in Christ will be the next wave - still 7 years before the end. Then, the 144000 at the midpoint of the week. Finally the Old Testament saints at the end of the week - and Jesus STILL has not yet returned, and we still have not arrived at chapter 20, and by now, untold MILLIONS have resurrected.

You see, you are thinking "first" as in there cannot be another before this, and this is a ONE TIME event. WRONG! It is the PRIMARY resurrection or the first in HONOR, not in number. It is the CHIEF resurrection. And it comes in waves, with Jesus being the firstfruits.

IN truth, there is NO conflicts with the dead in Christ rising 7 years before the end of the 70th week.

Lamad

 

[PeterAV]

OF COURSE it is post tribulational - but is it PRE-coming on the white horse. That is why posttribbers will miss it.

OF COURSE the bible backs up the bible. But some put two verses together as if they fit together, when they don't. For example, 1 Thes. 4:17 and the Matthew gathering.

If you want a verse, just read about the great crowd too large to number. They are certainly seen in heaven before the first trumpet judgment.

After the man of sin be revealed...
after the falling away....


You err in not understanding this passage. WHAT comes after the man of sin is revealed? WHAT must happen before he can be revealed? The THEME of this passage is the gathering, but as the KJV translated it, there is no gathering. Paul's argument is a simple one. Some folks were VERY upset, having read a letter or heard a false prophecy that the day of the Lord had started and they were now IN the Day. If Paul had taught them of a posttrib rapture, they would have no reason to be upset - they would know that they must hold out for 7 years and it would all be over. On the other hand, if Paul taught them of a PRETRIB rapture and now they think they are IN the day of the Lord, then obviously they MISSED the rapture and were left behind. Paul's argument is simple: when somone SEES the man of sin revealed, then they can KNOW they are IN the Day of the Lord, and it has started.

BUT: before he can be revealed, there is one restrining him from being revealed: it must be taken out of the way or departed or removed. Therefore, when the man of sin IS revealed, we can know that the one restraining him has been taken out of the way or departed. In verse 3-B we see that the man of sin IS REVEALED (in Paul's argument) so verse 3A MUST be the one restraining removed. It can be no other way. Is it no wonder then, that the first translators into English translated apostasia as departure?

So in verse 3, the rapture takes place, and the man of sin is revealed. Thus Paul's theme is covered. Something must come FIRST: and that is the removal of the man of sin.

All I hear is wiggle, wiggle.. How prophetic!
Show me the verses of truth.
And don't go changing God's word and sit in judgment upon it.
It is supposed to be us humbly complying with the book.
God's word is the final arbiter.
*******
Also you stated;

If you want a verse, just read about the great crowd too large to number. They are certainly seen in heaven before the first trumpet judgment.

*******
Just because you see something does not mean the whole book is in fact chronological.
Revelation 7 with the sixth and seventh seal:
Revelation 11 with the seventh angel trumpet:
Revelation 16 with the seventh vial:
All three are at the same time.
*******

PeterAV
Every word of God is pure:

 

[Trumpeter]

*******
Just because you see something does not mean the whole book is in fact chronological.
Revelation 7 with the sixth and seventh seal:
Revelation 11 with the seventh angel trumpet:
Revelation 16 with the seventh vial:
All three are at the same time.
*******

PeterAV
Every word of God is pure:

Greetings Peter,

The whole book IS in fact chronological, otherwise The Lord wouldn't have said so in verse 19.

Rev 1:19 "Write the things which you have seen, and the things which are, and the things which will take place after this.

This verse gives us the order of the book of Revelation, which is written chronologically or as the events happen. One immediately recognizes the 3 tenses past, present, and future. Write the things which you have seen - past, chapter 1; the things which are - present, chapters 2 and 3; and the things which will take place after this - future, chapters 4 through 22.

Chapters 12 through 19 constitute a rerun of the Tribulation hour as presented in chapters 6 through 11.

God bless.

 

[veteran]

To make that work would mean that the 144,000 from the 12 tribes of Israel are not who the bible says they are

The bible explicitly says the 144,000 are from the 12 tribes of Israel
You say NO ..... the 144,000 are the 1.3 billion Christians from all the other nations in the world

I don't know where... in the world you got that part in bold from, certainly not from me.

There's 144,000 sealed Israelites for the end, that's all.

The "great multitude" starting at Rev.7:9 is about Gentiles that are sealed.

The bible says the mark is visible and placed on their foreheads
And you say the mark is invisible and inside their foreheads.

This is what you are saying .... right veteran.... ??

The bible clearly says that as Christians we are already sealed with the Holy Spirit
If we are already sealed as believers .... why the requirement of sealing of the 144,000 .... ??

You're all mixed up and need to go over Rev.13, Rev.7, and Rev.9 again.

The 'mark' spoken of in Rev.13 that's visible is Satan's mark for buying and selling. But Satan has a spiritual mark in the mind also.

God's mark is not visible to us, but to the angels (read Ezekiel 9 and see the word "mark" there, as it's the last Hebrew letter which in ancient Hebrew was written like a cross).

Reason the 144,000 of Israel are sealed is because they are Christians too!!! If you had read and studied your Old Testament history like you were supposed to, then you'd understand how only 3 of those 12 tribes mentioned there are Jewish. The rest of them are ten lost tribe Israelites of the other tribes of Israel scattered among the Gentiles. It's a mistake to read that 144,000 and think it's only about a small remnant in the nation state of Israel in the middleast. I'd bet that's what your spin doctors have been telling you.

I can easily see it's men's doctrines of Dispensationalism that is throwing you off from understanding this.

Well, since you will MISS the pretrib rapture, and since you are NOT a part of one of the tribes of Israel and WON'T be sealed, you will find you FIRST HAND that these little beasties will STING like scorpions just like the bible says they do. Go ahead and put on ear muffs or hearing protection, and see if that will stop their words, as you say. Good luck with that. Don't say you have not been warned. You will have five months of torture...all because you refuse God's way of escape, thinking you have a better plan. Well, God will allow you to have your plan.

Thank God I don't have to worry about a Pre-Trib Rapture, because no such idea even exists in God's Word.

But Satan will rapture you guys when he comes as a false Christ. That's what Christ's warning about the dead carcase being gathered to where the fake eagles are is all about! (Matt.24:28 and end of Luke 17).

 

[Arnie Manitoba]

I don't know where... in the world you got that part in bold from, certainly not from me.

There's 144,000 sealed Israelites for the end, that's all.

The "great multitude" starting at Rev.7:9 is about Gentiles that are sealed.

I got it from here

........ So it makes sense that those outside Christ's Church will be subject to that stinging for five months, while those in Christ will not be because of God's sealing. I mean, what do you guys think God's sealing of His for the tribulation is for??? It's so you WON'T be deceived!!!

The "sealed" of rev 7 are at the throne .... they have come out of the tribulation

 

[veteran]

I got it from here


The "sealed" of rev 7 are at the throne .... they have come out of the tribulation

You didn't pull your idea from anything I said. You're making things up.

And you don't know what that sealing of Rev.7 is about, or you would know who they are and where they are at that point, which is definitely not in Heaven.

 

[iamlamad]

All I hear is wiggle, wiggle.. How prophetic!
Show me the verses of truth.
And don't go changing God's word and sit in judgment upon it.
It is supposed to be us humbly complying with the book.
God's word is the final arbiter.
*******
Also you stated;


*******
Just because you see something does not mean the whole book is in fact chronological.
Revelation 7 with the sixth and seventh seal:
Revelation 11 with the seventh angel trumpet:
Revelation 16 with the seventh vial:
All three are at the same time.
*******

PeterAV
Every word of God is pure:

If you don't think Rev. is chronological, then it is up to you to prove it here with scripture.

And if you think the seventh seal, the seventh trumpet, and the 7th vial are the same, you need serious help!

Picture a scroll rolled up, with seven seals along its edge to prevent unrolling. INSIDE this rolled scroll, will be the trumpet judgments, whose access will be denied until all seven seals are broken. It is impossible that ANY trumpet judgment can be seen or read or come to pass until all seven of the seals are broken. This sets the precedent for the trumpets and vials. NO vial can be poured out until all 7 of the trumpets are sounded.

Draw a straight line, horizontally across a paper. On the left side, draw a vertical and label it the 7th seal. On the right side, draw a vertical line and label it the 7th vial. Now, draw a vertical in the center of your horizontal line and mark it the 7th trumpet.
Now between the 7th seal and 7th trumpet, write 1260 days, 42 months or 3 1/2 years. Between the 7th trumpet and 7th vial write all three, 1260 days, 42 months, and 3 1/2 years.

Peter, this is a TIME line. The 7th seal starts the week, the 7th trumpet marks the midpoint and the 7th vial ENDS the week. The first 6 trumpets are in the first half of the week. the vials will be poured out in the last half of the week. The seals are NOT IN the week at all. Now, after you have done this, ask yourself, HOW could the 7th seal that begins the week be the same as the 7th vial that ENDS the week, seeing they are 7 years apart?

By the way, there is a HUGE difference between understanding a scripture and changing it. I changed nothing. If you disagree, show me what I changed.

Lamad

Greetings Peter,

The whole book IS in fact chronological, otherwise The Lord wouldn't have said so in verse 19.

Rev 1:19 "Write the things which you have seen, and the things which are, and the things which will take place after this.

This verse gives us the order of the book of Revelation, which is written chronologically or as the events happen. One immediately recognizes the 3 tenses past, present, and future. Write the things which you have seen - past, chapter 1; the things which are - present, chapters 2 and 3; and the things which will take place after this - future, chapters 4 through 22.

Chapters 12 through 19 constitute a rerun of the Tribulation hour as presented in chapters 6 through 11.

God bless.

Trumpeter, WHO told you chapters 12 through 19 are a rerun? This is simply not true. The first half of the 70th week is from the 7th seal (chapter 8) to the 7th trumpet, in chapter 11. Chapter 12 speaks of events immediately to follow the sounding of the 7th trumpet, as in seconds after. God will introduce John to both the dragon and the two beasts, but He cannot do both at the same time. One must follow the other in print, although they may happen at the same time. Case in point, 12:6: those living in Judea see the abomination and flee, but at the same time, Micael goes after the dragon to cast him down.

I believe John had to learn about the dragon first, before the two beasts, because it is the dragon that gives them their power and authority. So in time, chapter 13 probably happens at the moment that the dragon is cast down. He immediately possesses the Beast. There will be a small amount of time before the false prophet shows up. Then chapter 13 takes us on a small SIDE journey down the path of the two beasts, and far into the second half of the week.

Since much of chapter 13 was a SIDE journey or parenthesis, chapter 14 is back to the main timeline. The timing of chapter 14 is a while after the midpoint: hard to say exactly how long. How long will it take the False prophet to show up? We don't know. Once he does show up, how long will it take to make the great image, and set up the mark? Again, we don't know. But we see in chapter 14 that an angel flies and gives warning to all people in all languages what will happen if they take the mark. OF COURSE this warning must come before the mark becomes enforced. The rest of Chapter 14, the two harvests is prophetic; meaning, these events don't happen at this moment in time, shortly after the midpoint of the week. They are pointing to events towards the end of the week, and given as very symbolic prophecy of future events.

Chapter 15 is getting far into the last half of the week. The killing machine of the Beast is now established. Millions are being put to death, and God is about to pour out the vials to SHORTEN those days of great tribulation.

Chapter 16 are the vials poured out. This will come late in the last half of the week, but again, there is NO HINT of time, so we don't know how long God will wait to pour out the vials and shorten the week. Finally, the 7th vial ENDS the week.

Chapters 17 & 18 are a close up view of the destruction at the 7th vial.
Chapter 19 is the marriages, the marriage supper and Jesus return.

In summary, chapters 8 through 11 (up to the 7th trumpet) are the FIRST HALF of the week.
Chapters 11 (from the 7th trumpet on) through 16 are the SECOND HALF of the week.

Therefore, you missed in in saying chapters 12 through 19 are a rerun. John is EXTREMELY chronological. There is no backpeddling or reruns, when we understand his parenthesis. Perhaps we could say chapters 17 & 18 are a rerun of the 7th vial, but I choose to say they are a CLOSE UP view of the destruction of Babylon, or the city of Jerusalem.

Lamad

 

[PeterAV]

Trump,

I am a Christian who believes Jesus does not lie.
Good!

He told the disciples he would return in their generation.
Not true, he told the disciples he would return "immediately after the tribulation". And this was after the disciples asked of the sign of his coming and the end of the world. Matthew twenty four: verse twenty nine.
He told the scribes and Pharisees that judgment would come upon their generation.


He said he had come to fulfill all that had been written about him. (That would be all prophecy in the Old Testament, and includes Daniel's prophecy).

Are these scriptures true, or do we consider an untruth has been told and the bible can not be believed?

Hmm, In Matthew twenty four: verse thirty six, the Lord has previously been talking of the tribulation,[verse twenty one to verse twenty nine].
So the context of the claim is most assuredly post tribulational in nature.
Sure would be better if you actually posted some scriptures with your assertions. This way one could converse with you without being misunderstood.
*******
PeterAV
Every word of God is pure:

To make that work would mean that the 144,000 from the 12 tribes of Israel are not who the bible says they are

The bible explicitly says the 144,000 are from the 12 tribes of Israel
You say NO ..... the 144,000 are the 1.3 billion Christians from all the other nations in the world

The bible says the mark is visible and placed on their foreheads
And you say the mark is invisible and inside their foreheads.

This is what you are saying .... right veteran.... ??

The bible clearly says that as Christians we are already sealed with the Holy Spirit
If we are already sealed as believers .... why the requirement of sealing of the 144,000 .... ??

Believe it or not, The Bible names 15 Apostles and 15 tribes of Israel.

 

[Arnie Manitoba]

Hmm, In Matthew twenty four: verse thirty six, the Lord has previously been talking of the tribulation,[verse twenty one to verse twenty nine].
So the context of the claim is most assuredly post tribulational in nature.
Sure would be better if you actually posted some scriptures with your assertions. This way one could converse with you without being misunderstood.
*******
PeterAV
Every word of God is pure:

Believe it or not, The Bible names 15 Apostles and 15 tribes of Israel.

If it is post-tribulation (as you claim) ... then everybody will know the day and the hour
Matthew 24:36 tells us nobody will know the day or the hour
You cannot have it both ways sir

Matthew 24:37 ... tells us it will be as in the days of Noah (unexpected)
Matthew 24:38 .... everything is going along just fine
Matthew 24:39 .... it came as a surprise
Matthew 24:44 .... we must be rapture-ready without warning (pre-trib)

It can not work for Jesus to come post-trib because ....
--- it would be expected
--- we would know the timing of it
--- the world will be in tribulation ... not carrying on as usual
--- it would not be a surprise


Jesus will come at the end of the tribulation .... but that coming it is to halt the Armageddon slaughter against Israel and to usher in the millennium.

Believe it or not, The Bible names 15 Apostles and 15 tribes of Israel.

Revelation 7:4-8 .... lists 12 tribes
Revelation 21:21 ... tells us there are 12 pearly gates in the City of God
Revelation 21:12 ... tells us the gates are named according to the 12 tribes of Israel
Revelation 21:14 ... tells us the 12 foundations of The City are named after the 12 apostles

So..... for those folks who think they are the Apostles .... or think they are Israel ..... sorry .... but the positions are all taken .

We are the believers who comprise the Western Gentile Christian Church

 

[PeterAV]

If you don't think Rev. is chronological, then it is up to you to prove it here with scripture.
SNIP

Lamad

easy! Look at the verses I posted. It shows something that you may not have noticed.
Does the LORD come once, or three times in the end?
How often does Babylon fall?
How many times does the sun, moon and stars withdraw their shining? three times?
Or is it all just once with several renditions of the same occurrence?
*******
Revelation six shows a great earthquake, the sun moon and stars withdrawing their light
Thy great wrath IS come.
*******
Revelation eleven shows a great earthquake and thy wrath IS come.
Revelation sixteen shows a great earthquake and God's wrath.
*******
Is this three accounts of separate quakes or is it thee accounts of the same great earthquake?
*******
Then we have the accounts of the fall of Babylon.
Revelation fourteen verse eight shows Babylon is fallen, is fallen followed by God's wrath.
Revelation sixteen also shows Babylon is fallen followed by God's wrath.
Revelation eighteen also shows Babylon is fallen and followed By God's wrath the plagues.
*******
See how easy it is when you read the Bible?
So tell me, is the fall of Babylon going to happen at least three times?
Or is this three separate accounts of the same occurrence?
Will God's wrath be poured out upon fallen Babylon three separate times?
Good grief! Give yer head a shake!
*******
O that thou wouldest hide me in the grave, that thou shouldest KEEP me secret,
until thy wrath be past, that thou wouldest appoint me a SET time, and remember me.
If a man die, shall he live again? all the days of my appointed time will I WAIT,
till my change comes.
*******
See that? Till my change comes is the resurrection. The change happens AT the resurrection.
And we all know that the resurrection is at the LAST DAY!
*******
PeterAV
Every word of God is pure:

If it is post-tribulation (as you claim) ... then everybody will know the day and the hour
Matthew 24:36 tells us nobody will know the day or the hour
You cannot have it both ways sir

You make a straw man argument here? why?
I never said anything to that.
You are making a straw man argument out of your own opinions and assumptions.
I also believe we do not know the exact day nor the hour, but we can know the times and the seasons.
*******
PeterAV
Every word of God is pure:

Matthew 24:37 ... tells us it will be as in the days of Noah (unexpected)
Matthew 24:38 .... everything is going along just fine
Matthew 24:39 .... it came as a surprise
Matthew 24:44 .... we must be rapture-ready without warning (pre-trib)

Matthew twenty-four verse thirty seven is clearly post trib. Look at verse twenty-one and then verse twenty-nine.
Unexpected for WHOM????
Sure was not NOAH. He was a building the ark and PREPARING for about 100 years.
THEY were eating....till the flood came and TOOK THEM all away!
We don't know the day nor the hour but we DO know it is post trib. Verse twenty-one and verse twenty-nine.
*******
But YE brethren are NOT in darkness, that that day should overtake YOU as a thief. hello!
*******
Matthew twenty-four verse thirty-eight :You state everything is going along just fine.
In context, DURING the tribulation; verse twenty-one to twenty-eight etc. is not having things going along just fine.
Jesus did not say they were doing just fine, he was showing that life was yet going on despite the tribulation.
*******
Of course it is a surprise for the unbeliever. DUH!
Then your none biblical/contextual conclusion declares this conundrum.

we must be rapture-ready without warning (pre-trib)

*******
You use verse forty-four of chapter twenty-four.
Again in the context of AFTER the tribulation of those days...verse twenty-nine.
Definitely NOT pre-trib. And you know it!
You are now held accountable to the truth of God's pure word, Arnie.
*******
PeterAV
Every word of God is pure:
Arnie stated:

So..... for those folks who think they are the Apostles .... or think they are Israel ..... sorry .... but the positions are all taken .

We are the believers who comprise the Western Gentile Christian Church

*******
Jumping to assumptions are we?
All I said is that the Bible records 15 Apostles and 15 Tribes of Israel.
That is all.
It was just information. OK?
Here is more information.
All of the lists of the supposed twelve tribes of Israel are NEVER EVER the same.
Check it out! I did.
*******
PeterAV
Every word of God is pure:

OF COURSE it is post tribulational - but is it PRE-coming on the white horse. That is why posttribbers will miss it.

Are you serious?
I have to go for supper; but I will respond further.

 

[Arnie Manitoba]

PeterAV .... rather than keep telling me how wrong I am .... how about you just come right out and explain how you intend to survive the wrath of the tribulation .... where will you be .... how will you buy and sell ... how will you be kept safe .... how does Jesus snatch up his church and bring us down at the same time ... and why would He anyway .... why not just leave us here for that split second

I have observed for years people who are vehemently anti-pre-trib-rapture never tell us what will happen ..... but claim to be experts on what will not happen ..... go figure.

And please spare us the long copy-and-paste of bible pages ...... make your case in your own words as best you can.

God has a solid history of removing his people before he sends his punishments .

What makes you feel he will not do so during the tribulation ?

Do you feel his wrath is upon the church as well as the world ?

By the way .... Matthew 24 is written to a Jewish audience and some of it was probably already fulfilled in 70 AD

 

[veteran]

By the way .... Matthew 24 is written to a Jewish audience and some of it was probably already fulfilled in 70 AD

That's what PRETERISTS believe. But Preterism is a false doctrine of men.

 

[Rocky Wiley]

Hmm, In Matthew twenty four: verse thirty six, the Lord has previously been talking of the tribulation,[verse twenty one to verse twenty nine].
So the context of the claim is most assuredly post tribulational in nature.
Sure would be better if you actually posted some scriptures with your assertions. This way one could converse with you without being misunderstood.
*******
PeterAV
Every word of God is pure:

Believe it or not, The Bible names 15 Apostles and 15 tribes of Israel.

Hi Trump,

In Mat 24 Jesus is speaking to his disciples when he said:

Mat 24:33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
When they see all.
Mat 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
Verily he says to them, your generation shall not pass until
Mat 24:35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
Heaven and earth refers to the temple mount, (I am going to post on that later)
Mat 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
They would not know until it happened, but we know because it is history. Roman army destroyed the temple in 70 AD and there was not one stone left upon another.

As Christians we must get away from false prophets teachings.

 

[PeterAV]

...OF COURSE Jesus comes right after the 7th vial that ends the "trib" or 70th week, but no IMMEDIATELY after; there will be TIME for the wedding and supper in heaven BEFORE He gets on the white horse. No pretribber denies this! We BELIEVE this.
Snip

I will probably not even THINK of a posttribber while I am enjoying this amazing wedding supper!

Lamad

Care to put a scripture to this private interpretation Lamad?_______.
It appears you do not know what the wedding supper is.[ Verse?]
Nor do you know WHEN the wedding supper is.[Verse]
*******
Compare scripture with scripture, not peoples dreams.
*******
PeterAV
Every word of God is pure:

They would not know until it happened, but we know because it is history. Roman army destroyed the temple in 70 AD and there was not one stone left upon another.

As Christians we must get away from false prophets teachings.

The CONTEXT is after the tribulation ,Rocky.
I just showed you the context.
But you bleat your party line like a good goyim.
Those scriptures you posted are set in a strict Post tribulation occurrence.
After the tribulation of those days.
So when Jerusalem was destroyed, how come there were no heavenly signs.
*******
Sun Darkened, Moon not giving her light, Was there a appearing of Jesus coming? Matthew twenty-four verse thirty.
See that Rocky?
Without a proper biblical context, you end up believing a lie, because you love not the word of God which is the truth, but you love the words of opinions of men.
*******
To use the PROPER verse for your assertion would be Matthew twenty-four verse Two, right? NOT the post tribulation verses in the thirties.
Rightly dividing the word of truth, is paramount, Rocky.
*******
PeterAV
Every word of God is pure:

 

[Arnie Manitoba]

That's what PRETERISTS believe. But Preterism is a false doctrine of men.

Matthew 24:2 happened in 70 AD .... I think everybody knows that.