Law vs Gospel

[Dropship]

..It must be realized that God would not abandon Israel but rather save them, after dealing with them for 4000 years; and considering the Bible is 90% Jewish.

Jews have got exactly the same offer from God as everybody else, namely to become a Christian before they die, or go up the spout..

 

[Mantis]

The law is bondage. Jesus brought freedom.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

A genuine Christian will always allow God to "work" in him, because that's what God is doing; causing him to do "will and do His good pleasure"!

Becoming a Christian and remaining one is impossible apart from obedience to God. It is only those who obey God that God is working in as those Philippians who had "always obeyed".

 

[Netchaplain]

Jews have got exactly the same offer from God as everybody else, namely to become a Christian before they die, or go up the spout..

Israel has a special calling (even though they don't believe in Christ yet) that places them in a different position than the rest of the world. They are still in union with Him, which answers to why Romans 11 manifests Him eventually bringing them back to Himself.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

It's servants of sin unto death (descriptive of unbelievers) vs. servants of obedience unto righteousness (descriptive of believers). Faith onlyism (per James) is an empty profession of faith/dead faith that produces no works (James 2:14-24) which is not to be confused with faith that trusts in Jesus Christ alone for salvation. (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9) God imputes righteousness apart from works.


If we were saved by acts of obedience/works which "follow" saving faith in Christ, then they most certainly would be works of merit in regards to obtaining salvation. Either the death, burial and resurrection of Christ is the all sufficient means of our salvation (1 Corinthians 15:1-4) or else our works help contribute to salvation. You can't have it both ways. I was once is a discussion with a Campbellite on a different Christian forum and he made this erroneous statement below in blue:

"It is works of obedience that help to save us and not works of the law or works of merit."


Again it's servants of obedience unto righteousness vs. servants of sin unto death. It's one or the other. Not of works, least anyone should boast. (Ephesians 2:9) If we were saved by works, then there would be room for boasting, which entails merit, but of course, there is no room for boasting. Jesus Christ receives 100% credit. We are saved by grace through faith. (Ephesians 2:8) Period.


Romans 4:4 - Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt. 5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works:
=====================


Confession is an expression of faith and not a work for salvation.


I often hear people (particular Campbellites) misinterpret Romans 10:9,10 in such a way that means we can believe unto righteousness today, but are still lost until we confess Christ, which may be next week and then we are finally saved next week, but that is not what Paul is talking about here. Also, someone who is moot (unable to speak) would remain lost according to that erroneous interpretation of Romans 10:9,10 for failing to "verbally" confess with their mouth.

Confessing with our mouth that Jesus is Lord and believing in our heart that God raised Him from the dead are not two separate steps to salvation but are chronologically together. Romans 10:8 - But what does it say? "The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart" (TOGETHER) that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, (notice the reverse order from verse 9-10) - that if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Confess/believe; believe/confess.

1 Corinthians 12:3 - Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God calls Jesus accursed, and no one can say that Jesus is Lord except BY the Holy Spirit. There is divine influence or direct operation of the Holy Spirit in the heart of a person when confessing Jesus as Lord. This confession is not just a simple acknowledgment that Jesus is the Lord (even the demons believe that), but is a deep personal conviction that Jesus is that person's Lord and Savior. So simply believing in our head (and not in our heart) that God raised Him from the dead does not result in righteousness and simply giving lip service to the words "Jesus is Lord" not by the Holy Spirit is not unto salvation.

Hmm... John 1:12; 3:15,16,18,36; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26; Acts 10:43; 13:39; 16:31; Romans 1:16; 1 Corinthians 1:21; 1 John 5:13 etc..


False. According to the Campbellite 4 step plan of salvation: 1. Believe 2. Repent 3. Confess 4. Get water baptized then finally saved after all 4 steps are completed in that order. So what happened to water baptism in Romans 10:9,10? Believe and confess are chronologically together unto salvation, yet water baptism follows, so salvation precedes water baptism, even according to your 4 step 'so called' gospel plan.


There is a difference between the obedient act of choosing to believe the gospel (Romans 10:16; Romans 1:16) with the word of faith being in our mouth and in our heart TOGETHER (Romans 10:8) and multiple acts of obedience/works which "follow."

CONTINUED..

Paul says one is serving one of two masters;
1) sin unto death
2) obedience unto righteousness

Where then does Luther's faith onlyism fall among these two options? Faith onlyism cannot be serving "obedience unto righeousness" for it falsely claims there is nothing one can do to become saved when clearly there is something one can do to become saved...obey God's will.

You posted: "If we were saved by acts of obedience/works which "follow" saving faith in Christ, then they most certainly would be works of merit in regards to obtaining salvation" and your argument dies here for yourself and other faith onlyist cannot prove from the Bible where one's obedience to God's will is said to be a work or merit whereby God then owed that person...not one single case. Faith onlyist refusal to see the obvious difference between obedience and works of merit only make them wrong, not those who see that difference.

 

[mailmandan]

Paul says one is serving one of two masters;
1) sin unto death
2) obedience unto righteousness

Where then does Luther's faith onlyism fall among these two options? Faith onlyism cannot be serving "obedience unto righeousness" for it falsely claims there is nothing one can do to become saved when clearly there is something one can do to become saved...obey God's will.

You posted: "If we were saved by acts of obedience/works which "follow" saving faith in Christ, then they most certainly would be works of merit in regards to obtaining salvation" and your argument dies here for yourself and other faith onlyist cannot prove from the Bible where one's obedience to God's will is said to be a work or merit whereby God then owed that person...not one single case. Faith onlyist refusal to see the obvious difference between obedience and works of merit only make them wrong, not those who see that difference.

I already thoroughly explained this to you in posts #74 and #75. If you don't have eyes to see or ears to hear then I can't help you any further.

 

[Dropship]

Israel has a special calling (even though they don't believe in Christ yet) that places them in a different position than the rest of the world. They are still in union with Him, which answers to why Romans 11 manifests Him eventually bringing them back to Himself.

Naturally Jews have scoured the small print of the gospels looking for a "get out of hell" clause and have got the silly notion into their heads that they'll be given a "second chance" to accept Jesus..

 

[Netchaplain]

Naturally Jews have scoured the small print of the gospels looking for a "get out of hell" clause and have got the silly notion into their heads that they'll be given a "second chance" to accept Jesus..

It's my understanding that there are no chances God has with Israel. They have always been in union with Him (those believing in Him), and will eventually be in fellowship with Him, just not in the sonship capacity, but a "people of God," instead of children of God.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

In regards to John 12:42, we do not know the real condition of these "believing" rulers' hearts (mere mental assent belief James 2:19) or (trust and reliance saving belief John 3:16), but we do know that they loved men's praises (v. 43) more than God's. The unwillingness of the chief rulers to confess Christ in this isolated situation may throw doubt on the complete genuineness of their faith or did they simply have a weak moment in this isolated situation in front of the Pharisees? Does this mean they did not confess Christ to others?

The Apostle Peter at one point failed to confess Jesus before men (John 18:17-27), but after the Holy Spirit was given, he was a different man who boldly confessed Him. (Acts 4:8-13) We know that Peter was saved even though he had a weak moment and the same may be true for these chief rulers as well. Does the text specifically say that they were saved or not saved? If the chief rulers truly believed (trusted in Jesus Christ for salvation) even though they had a weak moment, then they are saved, but if their lack of confession was the result of a lack of genuine belief, then they are not saved. (John 3:18)

In regards to Matthew 10:32-33, in context, this passage relates to the fact that the Pharisees had continuously denied Jesus while the disciples continued to speak about Him in every city they visited. We might paraphrase His teaching this way: "Whoever confesses me before men (such as you disciples), I will confess him before my Father in heaven. But whoever denies me before men (like the Pharisees), I will deny him before my Father in heaven.

Those who confess Jesus are those who recognize Him as being the true Messiah and trust in Him as the ALL-sufficient means of their salvation. Those who deny Jesus (and those who give mere lip service confession) but refuse to trust in Him alone for salvation place themselves beyond any possibility of salvation, since salvation is found only in Him. (John 3:15,16,18; 10:9; 14:6)

The word for "deny" is an aorist tense. This points to the fact that Jesus is not talking about a single instance of denial (as was the case with Peter, who actually denied Jesus three times (Luke 22:56-62) but is referring to life in its entirety. Hence, the person who throughout his life denies Christ (as was typically the case with the Pharisess and includes unbelievers who may even give mere "lip service confession" - Matthew 7:21-23, but lack saving faith in Christ) will be denied by Christ before the Father.


In regards to John 1:12, those who receive Him are given the right to become (which means they actually do become) children of God, those who believe in His name. As Greek scholar AT Robertson points out - Here it is more the notion of privilege or right. To become (genesqai). Second aorist middle of ginomai, to become what they were not before.


Belief gives power to become a child of God now and not later, after one accomplishes a check list of works.


Repentance actually "precedes" belief/faith unto salvation. (Matthew 21:32; Mark 1:15; Acts 20:21) Apart from saving belief/faith in Christ, belief is merely mental assent, repentance is merely moral self-reformation, confession is merely lip service and baptism is merely a bath.


You have it backwards. Repentance (change of mind) precedes (new direction of this change of mind) saving belief/faith in Christ.


Obeying your false gospel (which is the result of bad semantics and flawed hermeneutics) is not obeying Christ. You are simply obeying your church.


Romans 10:9,10 teaches the exact opposite of salvation by water baptism and since confession with our mouth that Jesus is Lord and believing in our heart that God raised Him from the dead are not two separate steps to salvation, but are chronologically together, faith in Christ alone for salvation still stands. Not to be confused with your faith onlyism per James, which is an empty profession of faith/dead faith that produces no works.

We know from Jn 12:42 their belief would not lead them to confess Christ leaving them lost with their belief only.

And you are still worng about repentance preceding faith for unbelievers would not CANNOT repent. Those who do not believe is is impossilbe for them to repent Heb 6:6. Atheists do not believe in God, God's law, heaven, hell, sin, repentance therefore would not repent. They would know even know to repent. Sin is transgression of God's law, how then can a person repent when he does not even know God's has a law much less he has transgressed that law. Such an idea of repentance before belief is not only unbiblical but unreasonable.

Those in Acts 2 already beleived (v37) what Peter said THEN they were commanded to repent. Peter did not need to command them to beieve for they already did. Hence believing is UNTO salvation (Rom 10) for beleif then gives one the power to BECOME a son of GOd (Jn 1) for belief then allows one to repent, confess and be baptized.

Rom 1:16--------obedience ---- UNTO-----righteousness
Rom 10:19-----believe-----------UNTO ----- righteousness

Since there is but one way to be saved the belief itself is obedience for beleiving is DOING what God said in repenting, confessing with the mosuth and submitting to baptism. Salvation/righteousness is IMPOSSIBLE to attain apart from an obedient beleif for no one was ever saved by doing nothing/disobeying God.

Mark 1:15
"And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel."

Jesus was speaking to Jews. These Jews were not atheists who did not believe in God, but they already believed in God so Christ was not telling them to start believing in God. These Jews rejected Christ for they did not believe the OT as they claimed to. Had they actually believed the OT then they would have know that this man Jesus was the promised Messiah. They needed to repent of their unbelief of the OT then they could then believe and accept Christ as that promised Messiah.

 

[mailmandan]

We know from Jn 12:42 their belief would not lead them to confess Christ leaving them lost with their belief only.

And you are still worng about repentance preceding faith for unbelievers would not CANNOT repent. Those who do not believe is is impossilbe for them to repent Heb 6:6. Atheists do not believe in God, God's law, heaven, hell, sin, repentance therefore would not repent. They would know even know to repent. Sin is transgression of God's law, how then can a person repent when he does not even know God's has a law much less he has transgressed that law. Such an idea of repentance before belief is not only unbiblical but unreasonable.

Those in Acts 2 already beleived (v37) what Peter said THEN they were commanded to repent. Peter did not need to command them to beieve for they already did. Hence believing is UNTO salvation (Rom 10) for beleif then gives one the power to BECOME a son of GOd (Jn 1) for belief then allows one to repent, confess and be baptized.

Rom 1:16--------obedience ---- UNTO-----righteousness
Rom 10:19-----believe-----------UNTO ----- righteousness

Since there is but one way to be saved the belief itself is obedience for beleiving is DOING what God said in repenting, confessing with the mosuth and submitting to baptism. Salvation/righteousness is IMPOSSIBLE to attain apart from an obedient beleif for no one was ever saved by doing nothing/disobeying God.

Mark 1:15
"And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel."

Jesus was speaking to Jews. These Jews were not atheists who did not believe in God, but they already believed in God so Christ was not telling them to start believing in God. These Jews rejected Christ for they did not believe the OT as they claimed to. Had they actually believed the OT then they would have know that this man Jesus was the promised Messiah. They needed to repent of their unbelief of the OT then they could then believe and accept Christ as that promised Messiah.

More church of Christ eisegesis. I already thoroughly explained John 12:42 to you in post #75.

In regards to renew them again unto repentance in Hebrews 6:6, this does not specify whether the repentance was merely outward or genuine accompanied by saving faith. They have in some sense "repented," there may be sorrow for sins and an attempt to turn from them (moral self-reformation) that non-believers can experience. There is repentance that falls short of salvation, which is clear from Hebrews 12:7 and the reference to Esau, as well as the repentance of Judas Iscariot in Matthew 27:3. Paul refers to a repentance “without regret that leads to salvation,” which shows there is a repentance that does not lead to salvation. As with “belief/faith”, so too with “repentance,” we must always distinguish between what is substantial and results in salvation and what is spurious. Renew them again "unto salvation" would be conclusive evidence for your argument in regards to repentance.

In regards to Acts 2:37, their "belief" at this point was "mental assent" that Jesus was the Messiah and that they were guilty of crucifying Him. That is not saving belief yet. They still lacked trust and reliance in Jesus Christ for salvation and that's why they still needed to repent and place their faith in Jesus Christ alone for salvation and faith in Jesus Christ "implied in genuine repentance" (rather than water baptism) brings the remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit (Luke 24:47; Acts 2:38; 3:19; 5:31; 10:43-47; 11:17,18; 15:8,9; 16:31; 26:18). *Perfect Harmony*

Believing/faith in Jesus for salvation causes us to become sons of God. (John 1:12; Galatians 3:26)

Romans 1:16-----believes the gospel-----UNTO-----salvation.
Romans 10:10-----believes-----UNTO-----righteousness.

Choosing to believe the gospel by trusting in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ (1 Corinthians 15:1-4) as the ALL-SUFFICIENT means of our salvation is the act of obedience that saves. (Romans 10:16) Not to be confused with multiple acts of obedience/works which "follows" believing the gospel UNTO salvation. Repentance "precedes" believe him/believe the gospel/faith in our Lord Jesus Christ. (Matthew 21:32; Mark 1:15; Acts 20:21) Your faith is in "water and works" and is not in Christ alone for salvation, which explains a lot.

In regards to Mark 1:15, yes the Jews did need to repent of their unbelief and believe/accept Christ as that promised Messiah. In Mark 1:15, notice the order of repent and believe the gospel. Repentance precedes believing the gospel. You place repentance "after" belief/faith. Your mixed up gospel plan is the result of bad semantics and flawed hermeneutics.

 

[Dropship]

It's my understanding that there are no chances God has with Israel. They have always been in union with Him (those believing in Him), and will eventually be in fellowship with Him, just not in the sonship capacity, but a "people of God," instead of children of God.

Christians are certainly the children of God and will be going to heaven, but where will the "people of God" be going?
Incidentally most jews are nice friendly people, I worked at two jewish family-run firms in the past and got on great with them, but the fact remains that by being jewish they're rejecting Jesus, so sadly i won't see them in heaven because it's a christians-only gated community.

 

[Enoch111]

It's my understanding that cover and forgive are synonymous

"Cover" meant a temporary situation. But "propitiation" means a permanent situation.

 

[Netchaplain]

Christians are certainly the children of God and will be going to heaven, but where will the "people of God" be going?
Incidentally most jews are nice friendly people, I worked at two jewish family-run firms in the past and got on great with them, but the fact remains that by being jewish they're rejecting Jesus, so sadly i won't see them in heaven because it's a christians-only gated community.

This is true, only Christians inherit heaven. The Jews miss out and inherit the earth, which is what God intended and knew. This is what the "blessed" is in Jhn 20:29: "Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen Me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed."

 

[Dropship]

This is true, only Christians inherit heaven. The Jews miss out and inherit the earth, which is what God intended and knew. This is what the "blessed" is in Jhn 20:29: "Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen Me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed."

Are you saying that God has said to the jews "Don't worry, I won't be sending you to hell for killing my son, i'll give you the earth instead"?
And what will that earth be like for them, a nice place or bad place?

 

[HIM]

You need to read Romans. This will get you started...

Romans 7:4-6, "In the same way, my brothers and sisters, you have died to the law through the body of Christ, so that you may belong to another, to him who was raised from the dead in order that we may bear fruit for God. For while we were living in the flesh, our sinful passions, aroused by the law, were at work in our members to bear fruit for death. But now we are discharged from the law, dead to that which held us captive, so that we are enslaved in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the written code."

Christians are governed by the Holy Spirit, given to us by God, not by the written law.

Romans is a big letter not just one chapter. Chapters 2-3 show us that all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God and need Christ to live. Chapter 3 says We establish the law through faith. Chapter 4 show us that THIS faith is believing God and what He says. Five states we are made righteous through this faith. Chapter 6 states that we being dead to sin through baptism can not live any longer therein and chapter 7 tells us the law told us what sin is and that in committing it we as Paul become slaves to it. Chapter 8 verse two through 4 tell us that through Christ we are no longer in bondage to sin that the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us through the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus. And chapter 10 verses 6-8 which is a paraphrase of Deuteronomy 30:10-14 show us that this faith that establishes the Law through the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus is through Christ in our heart.

 

[Netchaplain]

Are you saying that God has said to the jews "Don't worry, I won't be sending you to hell for killing my son, i'll give you the earth instead"?
And what will that earth be like for them, a nice place or bad place?

Many are not going to understand God's eschatological plans for Israel. I post the information for those who will understand.

The Jews are the same concerning sin, but God has chosen them to be a people for Him, and He will be bringing those who believe in Him to Himself. God will not let this nation of people perish, and Scripture speaks only of redeeming them.

 

[Dropship]

Are you saying that God has said to the jews "Don't worry, I won't be sending you to hell for killing my son, i'll give you the earth instead"?
And what will that earth be like for them, a nice place or bad place?

Many are not going to understand God's eschatological plans for Israel. I post the information for those who will understand.

I understand this verse below quite well, namely that all jews are going up the spout unless they become christians before they die..-

 

[Netchaplain]

I understand this verse below quite well, namely that all jews are going up the spout unless they become christians before they die..-

View attachment 28014

We would need Scripture to support what we believe. I see no Scripture showing Israel being "cast away" (Rom 11:1; 2, 15, 23-28). "Because of unbelief they were broken off" but "if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in" (20, 23). "And so all Israel shall be saved" (26).

There's nothing demonstrating Israel perishing here!












I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.

Rom 11:2

; 15

 

[Dropship]

We would need Scripture to support what we believe. I see no Scripture showing Israel being "cast away" (Rom 11:1; 2, 15, 23-28). "Because of unbelief they were broken off" but "if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in" (20, 23). "And so all Israel shall be saved" (26).
There's nothing demonstrating Israel perishing here!
I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
Rom 11:2

; 15

There were some real dunderheads among the Israelites, Jesus said to the snooty priestly classes-
“Woe to you, because you build tombs for the prophets, and it was your ancestors who killed them. So you testify that you approve of what your ancestors did; they killed the prophets, and you build their tombs...
Therefore this generation will be held responsible for the blood of all the prophets that has been shed since the beginning of the world"
(Luke: 48-52)
So the choice for modern jews (and all nonchristians and atheists everywhere) is quite clear, namely show true repentance by becoming christians before you die, or go up the spout..

 

[Netchaplain]

There were some real dunderheads among the Israelites, Jesus said to the snooty priestly classes-
“Woe to you, because you build tombs for the prophets, and it was your ancestors who killed them. So you testify that you approve of what your ancestors did; they killed the prophets, and you build their tombs...
Therefore this generation will be held responsible for the blood of all the prophets that has been shed since the beginning of the world"
(Luke: 48-52)
So the choice for modern jews (and all nonchristians and atheists everywhere) is quite clear, namely show true repentance by becoming christians before you die, or go up the spout..

Yes, how the patience and love of God for His "people" is manifested!