Legalism in religion

[Ernest T. Bass]

If you make water baptism a requirement for salvation, then the person who baptized you can claim they made your salvation possible.

That is not Grace, and it cannot ever be Grace!

Philemon's salvation was possible by Paul's work in spreading the gospel.
v19 "I Paul have written it with mine own hand, I will repay it: albeit I do not say to thee how thou owest unto me even thine own self besides."

If not for Paul doing the work of evangelizing, Philemon would have been lost, in that sense, Philemon "owed unto Paul his own self"....he was indebted to Paul for Paul converting him.

Calvinist Albert Barnes even says of this verse "Paul had doubtless been the means of the conversion of Philemon, and whatever hope he cherished of eternal life, was to be traced to his instrumentality. Paul says that this was equivalent to his owing himself to him. His very life - his eternal welfare - was to be traced to his labors."

Therefore was Philemon's conversion "works/labored based"?

 

[Charlie24]

Philemon's salvation was possible by Paul's work in spreading the gospel.
v19 "I Paul have written it with mine own hand, I will repay it: albeit I do not say to thee how thou owest unto me even thine own self besides."

If not for Paul doing the work of evangelizing, Philemon would have been lost, in that sense, Philemon "owed unto Paul his own self"....he was indebted to Paul for Paul converting him.

Calvinist Albert Barnes even says of this verse "Paul had doubtless been the means of the conversion of Philemon, and whatever hope he cherished of eternal life, was to be traced to his instrumentality. Paul says that this was equivalent to his owing himself to him. His very life - his eternal welfare - was to be traced to his labors."

Therefore was Philemon's conversion "works/labored based"?

Two completely different animals!

Paul, and all the rest of us make it possible for the Gospel to be heard, they in no way take a part of the actual salvation as one does when baptizing to be saved.

 

[Charlie24]

This does not address the issue you raised. If one person baptizing another perosn creates a "works based salvation" then it is also true that one person working in carrying out the great commssion to teach and baptize others to save them also creates a works based salvation.

If Rom 11:6 says what you think it does, then that means since salvation is obtained by carrying out the great commission by the works of teaching and baptizing, then salvation is no more grace.
Obviously the "works" in the verse does not refer to works of obedience in carrying out the great commission, hence Paul was NOT contrasting grace against obedience. For even in the context, God's people were those who OBEYED by not bowing to the false idol Baal. In NT times God's people are those who obey by election of grace by obeying the gospel of Christ (2 Thess 1:8). Paul in the context was contrasting grace from works of perfect, flawless law keeping. The OT law required the work of flawless law keeping to be justified by it whereby if the Jew could keep the OT law perfectly then his salvation would not be of grace but merited by his own perfect works.






"No amount of works can blot out sins already committed. Forgiveness is a matter of grace, no matter how many conditions one must fulfill in order to be forgiven. If a man's works had always been perfect, he would have no sins to be forgiven; he would stand justified on his own merit. There is no grace when a man merits justification. Works by which a man merits justification, and commands which one must obey to be saved, are distinct matters. It is unfortunate that many religionists cannot, or will not, see this distinction, which should be plainly seen by any Bible reader. Because they fail to make this distinction they conclude that a sinner must do nothing in order to be saved. A man has no real understanding of either works or grace when he thinks conditions of forgiveness make salvation a matter of works and not of grace. Nothing that a sinner can do merits salvation. Many things are of grace, and yet conditional. Is anyone so simple as to think Naaman's healing of leprosy was any less a matter of grace because he had to dip seven times in the river Jordan? Is any so blind that he cannot see that giving sight to the blind man was a matter of grace, even though he had to go wash in the pool of Siloam? If so, he needs his eyes opened as badly as did the blind man." Whiteside, Romans Commentary

Same answer as my last post.

 

[mailmandan]

It's a matter of where your faith is placed.

My faith for salvation is 100% in the finished work of Christ on the Cross and His resurrection.

My water baptism is confessing the name of Christ as the source of my salvation.

Water baptism is in no way is the source of my salvation, but the picture of my having been spiritually baptized into the death of Christ.

Making water baptism a requirement for salvation is faith in the work of a ceremony, performed by man on your behalf.

Rom. 11:6
"And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work."

Amen! Either we are trusting 100% in Jesus Christ as the ALL-SUFFICIENT means of our salvation or else we are 100% lost. (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Philippians 3:9 etc..).

 

[mailmandan]

Two completely different animals!

Paul, and all the rest of us make it possible for the Gospel to be heard, they in no way take a part of the actual salvation as one does when baptizing to be saved.

John 3:18 - He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who (is not water baptized? - NO) does not believe is condemned already, because he has not (been water baptized? - NO) because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

 

[Jack]

"Christianity" is a MESS, to be kind. Thousands of churches who have drastically different beliefs. Satan has done his work but God will soon straighten it all out. It won't be pretty! Blood will soon flow!

1 Peter 4
17 For the time has come for judgment to begin at the house of God; and if it begins with us first, what will be the end of those who do not obey the gospel of God? 18 Now "If the righteous one is scarcely saved, Where will the ungodly and the sinner appear?"

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Probably. But I created the thread to discuss a more extreme legalism instead of standard Christian teachings. But the main point I was trying to get to was how much of this stuff I should believe and how much to just toss out.

I like that we should provide works to be saved by Christ. Because without them I don't think Christ will save us. Unless we're disabled or something.

While there are other places in the Bible that talks about this, one notable place where the Bible addresses an extreme form of legalism (or Works ALONE Salvationism) is in Luke 18:9-14, and Luke 17:9-10. I believe these pieces of Scripture address those men who are seeking to bypass God’s grace and making it all about their own man made good works instead of…

#1. Being saved by God’s grace, and then by:
#2. Laboring or working by God’s grace, power and being
(In the Sanctification of the Spirit - which is a part of God having chosen us to salvation by).

I believe Luke 17:9-10 is basically saying that we should not think God will thank us for doing what is commanded of us, and we should think of ourselves as unprofitable servants in light of the fact that we cannot do anything of ourselves alone without God (John 15:5) (Philippians 2:13), and we are only following what we are commanded to do (Just as the sun is following what it is commanded to do, and the planets are following what they are commanded to do). But we should also have a balanced perspective here; We must also keep in mind that in the Parable in the Talents, the servant who was faithful over a few things was told by the LORD: “Well done good and faithful servant… enter thou into the joy of thy Lord” (See: Matthew 25:21). Yet, we know that the unprofitable servant in this parable was told to be cast into outer darkness where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth (Matthew 25:30). So in one sense we are unprofitable only in the fact that we cannot offer anything to God on our own power, and yet on the other hand, we are commanded to obey and be faithful over a few things to be able to enter into the joy of our Lord. For if we are unprofitable, we will be cast out.

Luke 18:9-14 is a parable about the Pharisees and their wrong thinking in that they trusted in themselves and their righteousness outside of the working of God and His Word. The Pharisees did not do what the Tax Collector did in truly breaking down before the Lord and seek forgiveness fully with Him. They needed to have a changed heart by their calling upon the name of the LORD for salvation (Romans 10:13). Grace gives us the ability to do the work (1 Corinthians 15:10). But these Pharisees that Jesus condemns in the form of a parable are not operating in good works by God’s grace. They are only operating in the flesh. Another problem is that the Pharisees despised others (Luke 18:9). Yet, Jesus said we are to pray, and love, and good towards our enemies. Everything hinges on love. Faith that works by love (Galatians 5:6). For it is the love of God whereby He so loved the world that He gave His only begotten for us. This is God’s amazing grace and nobody can bypass grace. By essence: God’s grace is love; And by this love it changes us and moves us (Just as the woman who anointed Jesus’ feet with her tears loved much because she was forgiven much).

A person first needs to be saved by God’s grace (Which is a process of salvation without works). But people need to know that after we are saved by God’s grace, they need to read Titus 2:11-12 and realize that God’s grace teaches us to deny ungodliness and that we should live righteously and godly in this present world.

Anyways, believers need to have a healthy balance between Grace, and Sanctification. For the Bible teaches…

Being initially saved by God’s grace (without works), and then being saved in the Sanctification of the Spirit (a process of living holy by God’s power) are all by faith. Legalism (IMHO) would be men trying to bypass grace all together and making it all about works (with no real gratitude for God working in them).

 

[Bible Highlighter]

@devin553344

One thing I will say is that I disagree with the Catholic Church and the Church of Christ (COC) because they teach that you can only be initially saved by water baptism. Yet, Cornelius was saved by receiving the Spirit (Which is the downpayment of his inheritance) before he was even water baptized. Peter basically says baptism does not save us in putting away the filth of the flesh (sin or the sin nature) but it saves us in having an already good and clean conscience before God (See: 1 Peter 3:21). Yes, we should be baptized as a part of our faith, but if we are saved by being water baptized initially, it would bypass the grace of God as taught by Paul in Ephesians 2:8-9. We are initially saved by God’s grace. For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved (Romans 10:13). So you can just call upon Jesus and be saved. That’s how grace starts with us believing that Christ died for our sins, he was buried, and he was risen the third day. The Bible also talks about how we need to be saved in the Sanctification Process so as to be righteous and be saved in the end (1 Timothy 6:12) (Hebrews 10:36).

As for the Laws of Moses:

Well, Christians are not under the 613 Laws of Moses as a whole or package deal (even though certain laws have carried over into the Laws of Christ). Christians do not have to keep the Saturday Sabbath, dietary laws, or holy days (Colossians 2:14-17). Christians do not have to be circumcised to be saved or keep the whole of the Law of Moses (See: Acts 15:1, Acts 15:5, and Acts 15:24). Acts 13:39 says we cannot be justified by the Laws of Moses. This is why Saul (Paul) sinned as a Pharisee before he knew Jesus Christ because he was under the Old Law (Romans 7:14-24). He need to serve in newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter (Romans 7:6). But Paul was not lawless. Paul said, “To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law.” (1 Corinthians 9:21). Paul only spoke negatively of works and the Law when he spoke of those things generically because of the problem of those who thought they had to be circumcised in order to be saved (See again Acts 15:1, Acts 15:5, and Acts 15:24 and then see Galatians 5:2, Romans 2:25-29, Romans 3:1, Romans 4:9-12, etcetera). Hebrews 7:12 says the Law has changed. It does not mean Christians are not under no laws whatsoever. Paul said if any man speaks contrary to the words of Jesus Christ and the doctrine according to godliness, he is proud and he knows nothing (1 Timothy 6:3-4). Paul said there are vain deceivers who can deny God by being reprobate unto every good work (Titus 1:16). Paul said let us not be wearing (tired) in well doing, for we will reap if we faint not (Galatians 6:9). What is this well doing and reaping? It is described in verse 8. The person who sows to the Spirit will reap life everlasting (See: Galatians 6:8).

 

[Johann]

OK, so I mostly believe that. But the scriptures say "buy of me gold tried in the fire and white garments and eye salve" (Revelation 3:18-19). And how do we buy something from God if we're not working for it? And that doesn't necessarily mean we have to work for our salvation. But the bible is clear that those who don't work for the Lord get cast into the fire.

I believe Matthew 25 will answer your question.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

@devin553344

Check out these videos here:

 

[Jack]

@devin553344

Check out these videos here:

Wouldn't it be helpful if you quote the Scriptures you are referring to?

 

[mailmandan]

"Christianity" is a MESS, to be kind. Thousands of churches who have drastically different beliefs. Satan has done his work but God will soon straighten it all out. It won't be pretty! Blood will soon flow!

1 Peter 4
17 For the time has come for judgment to begin at the house of God; and if it begins with us first, what will be the end of those who do not obey the gospel of God? 18 Now "If the righteous one is scarcely saved, Where will the ungodly and the sinner appear?"

There are genuine Christians and there are "nominal/pseudo" Christians. There are genuine believers and there are make believers and it's not hard to find them mixed together within professing Christendom and on various Christian forum sites.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

"Christianity" is a MESS, to be kind. Thousands of churches who have drastically different beliefs. Satan has done his work but God will soon straighten it all out. It won't be pretty! Blood will soon flow!

1 Peter 4
17 For the time has come for judgment to begin at the house of God; and if it begins with us first, what will be the end of those who do not obey the gospel of God? 18 Now "If the righteous one is scarcely saved, Where will the ungodly and the sinner appear?"

The Bible says there is ONE faith and ONE body (church, Col 1:18). Man says there are many faithS, many churchS.
The Bible says God's word is truth and truth never contradicts itself. Man says contadictions are acceptable and man can choose his own doctrines and faiths for himself to believe.
The Bible says Christ is the ONE husband of the ONE bride, the church, (2 Cor 11:2). Man says Christ is a spiritual adulterer, a spiritual polygamist for He is espoused to thousands of brides/churchES.

I would say man made DENOMINATIONALISM is the mess, not Christianity.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

@devin553344

Yet, Cornelius was saved by receiving the Spirit .

The context of Acts 10 or 11 does not teach this idea, you add this idea to the text to get around the COMMAND to be water baptized given to Cornelius.

In Acts 8, the Spirit sent for Phillip to teach Jesus to the eunuch and for Phillip to water baptize the eunuch.

Points to note:

-----if Cornelius being baptized with the HS and speaking in tongues 'proves' he was saved, then the eunuch (among others) not being baptized with the HS, not speaking in tongues must 'prove' they were lost.

----Phillip taught the eunuch for salvation comes by the gospel being taught to men (1 Cor 1:21) and men obeying the gospel of Christ (2 Thess 1:8). Spread of the gospel and salvation is not by the HS arbitrarily selecting certain men and miraculously givning them knowedge separate and apart from the word leaving other men lost in ignorance of the gospel. In the context of Acts 8, the Spirit Himself did not personally teach the eunuch , did not "spirit baptize' the eunuch, did not miraculously give the eunuch knowledge of the gospel separate and apart from God's word being taught to the eunuch, but instead the Spirit sent for Philiip to teach the eunuch.
When Cornelius was baptized with the HS, the Spirit did not miraculously impart the saving gospel to Cornelius during this baptism but Peter still had to preach those "saving words" of the gospel (Acts 11:14) and Cornelius had to hear those saving words of the gospel to have faith (Rom 10:17) and obey the gospel of Christ else be lost 2 Thess 1:8.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Two completely different animals!

Paul, and all the rest of us make it possible for the Gospel to be heard, they in no way take a part of the actual salvation as one does when baptizing to be saved.

Not different at all!!

If one person water baptizing another is works based salvation then one person teaching another the saving gospel is also works based salvation.

 

[Charlie24]

Not different at all!!

If one person water baptizing another is works based salvation then one person teaching another the saving gospel is also works based salvation.

Well, it's pretty simple! If man can't be saved until he is water baptized, then man is depending on man to be saved through that ceremony.

You can't water baptize yourself! That's just about as far from Grace as one can get!

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Well, it's pretty simple! If man can't be saved until he is water baptized, then man is depending on man to be saved through that ceremony.

You can't water baptize yourself! That's just about as far from Grace as one can get!

If a man can't be saved until he hears the gospel, then that man is depending on man to be saved through teaching the gospel.

Again, no difference.

 

[Titus]

Well, it's pretty simple! If man can't be saved until he is water baptized, then man is depending on man to be saved through that ceremony.

You can't water baptize yourself! That's just about as far from Grace as one can get!

Were you completely ignorant of the Bible when you believed God saved you? btw, one cannot be saved by faith only.
Did God come directly to you and teach you His gospel with absolutely no other person involved in your conversion?
The moment you believe you were said, was there no one at all before that time taught you or showed you a Bible passage?
No hearing a preacher before faith?
No man teaching you the gospel before faith?

I know you were led by another man, women in some way before you believed.
That according to you makes salvation reliant upon men.
According to your definition it is works based salvation.

God doesn't believe so, for He said faith does not come to man directly from God but by other men,
Romans 10:14,
-How shall they call on Jesus in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher(man).

17 -So then faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God
-

 

[Charlie24]

If a man can't be saved until he hears the gospel, then that man is depending on man to be saved through teaching the gospel.

Again, no difference.

Man has to make a choice after he hears the Gospel. The hearing of the Gospel demands it.

When man decides he must be water baptized to be saved, he has already made that choice.

 

[Charlie24]

Were you completely ignorant of the Bible when you believed God saved you? btw, one cannot be saved by faith only.
Did God come directly to you and teach you His gospel with absolutely no other person involved in your conversion?
The moment you believe you were saved, was there no one at all before that time taught you or showed you a Bible passage?
No hearing a preacher before faith?
No man teaching you the gospel before faith?

I know you were led by another man, women in some way before you believed.
That according to you makes salvation reliant upon men.
According to your definition it is works based salvation.

God doesn't believe so, for He saved faith does not come to man directly from God but by other men,
Romans 10:14,
-How shall they call on Jesus in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher(man).

17 -So then faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God
-

God has taught me that salvation comes only by faith in Christ.

When I split that faith in Him with another requirement, it is no longer Grace.

In your case, you have resorted to Law, the Law of your own making.

You have cancelled out Grace by making obeying/works your foundation of faith.