Let me clarify this. I believe in "OSNAS" Scripturally, but...

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thelord's_pearl

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You're not getting very clear thoughts from me because I'm clear on some things but not on other things. As I said, I don't believe God has given us much information on the eternal future of the ungodly precisely because it extends beyond our own personal business and is unpleasant. Those who make such choices should have to meditate on it.

From my experience of God's love, and from reading God's laws of compassion in the Bible I'm pretty sure that God will not "torture" people for all eternity. I use that word "torture" very carefully because it implies there is a sadistic interest in seeing others suffer.
But God is not like that, I'm sure.

But that doesn't mean that justice cannot impose a measure of unhappiness, implied in the words "stripes," and gnashing of teeth, and weeping. "Stripes" suggest an initial whipping, preceding a final sentencing. Gnashing of teeth suggests unhappiness about a hopeless condition. Weeping implies resignation in the fact of irretrievable loss. None of these things implies "torture."

"Eternal Death" suggests "death" continues to exist, but it is unlike the kind we now have in our physical bodies, which will be undone at the resurrection. Eternal Death suggests the same thing that the Lake of Fire suggests, that people will be permanently removed--not that they will be burning forever. The fire removes them one time. The fact they get thrown in there forever suggests they are removed forever--not that they are imprisoned there.

When I throw trash into a bonfire, it's burned up instantly. It doesn't just burn and burn and burn for an eternity. It is gone forever, but it doesn't burn forever.

That's what I believe about Eternal Death and the Lake of Fire. People are thrown in there and they are burned up immediately. They are thrown in forever because they are "burned up" and removed, and cannot come back.

But it is not an actual furnace where they must remain forever. They remain forever in a "burned up state," but they don't keep burning forever. They are forever cast out into Outer Darkness, which doesn't suggest they are still burning, as in being tortured.

This may be as clear as mud, but I'm not claiming to be sure about all of it--only that God is not sadistic. I believe He has a place for all of the Lost. Maybe they will work on a planet like this one in unhappy conditions--that would be "Hell" to me! But we will be in a place where we will be happy forever. It isn't our business to go too deep into such sadness.
Hi Randy, It sounds to me like the wicked/unrighteous will be suffering eternally because if they were instantly burned up and removed forever, they wouldn't have the time to, weep/cry or be knashing their teeth, which also implies to be in the flesh from these two descriptions, in order to weep and knash teeth, so I think you're right in the last line that Hell will be like living a "death" sentence in unhappy conditions like the sufferings in this world, various and different kinds of suffering in this world, and they will also have a spiritual thirst or feeling of being deprived because of their lost state (having been given a chance to repent of sin in the past but not anymore) since it will be meaningless and there will be no blessings in Hell apart from God. I also think that Hell will be like a suffering that is enough to make one weep and knash their teeth. That's the extent that I know. I believe in that death still exists but it is under Jesus' feet because I believe God has a pattern: day and night; light and darkness; death and life; eternal death vs eternal life; good and evil; righteous and unrighteous; God and Satan (if there's a "good" God then there has to be an "evil/bad" Satan) like the Law of Opposites, like the even you can say Yin/Yang balance/forces.
 
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Randy Kluth

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Hi Randy, It sounds to me like the wicked/unrighteous will be suffering eternally because if they were instantly burned up and removed forever, they wouldn't have the time to, weep/cry or be knashing their teeth, which also implies to be in the flesh from these two descriptions, in order to weep and knash teeth, so I think you're right in the last line that Hell will be like living a "death" sentence in unhappy conditions like the sufferings in this world, various and different kinds of suffering in this world, and they will also have a spiritual thirst or feeling of being deprived because of their lost state (having been given a chance to repent of sin in the past but not anymore) since it will be meaningless and there will be no blessings in Hell apart from God. I also think that Hell will be like a suffering that is enough to make one weep and knash their teeth. That's the extent that I know. I believe in that death still exists but it is under Jesus' feet because I believe God has a pattern: day and night; light and darkness; death and life; eternal death vs eternal life; good and evil; righteous and unrighteous; God and Satan (if there's a "good" God then there has to be an "evil/bad" Satan) like the Law of Opposites, like the even you can say Yin/Yang balance/forces.
I agree with most of what you say. I don't, however, think Satan is the opposite of God--he is just an "insect" to God.

But I hear ya. Sounds like we feel the same way about much of this? We believe people exist eternally in a place called "Eternal Punishment." They are completely removed from this world, but are given new physical bodies in which they can experience sadness and regret?

In my view, the Lost are truly cast into a Lake of Fire forever. But this simply means they pass out of God's Kingdom and into an area of some kind called "Outer Darkness." There is eternal torment, but not eternal "torture." They are separate from God's Kingdom forever, which is why it is called "Eternal Death."

I see the Lake of Fire more as a portal than an eternal furnace. When it is said that people are cast into the Lake of Fire forever it just means that they pass through the portal never more to return. They are in a sense "burned up."

But staying in a furnace to be on fire forever isn't something I would wish on a cockroach! So I don't think Gehenna, a trash dump, was ever intended to convey the sense of being on fire forever, or being tortured as such forever. It was merely a means of disposing of something no longer wanted in the present world. In the case of the Lost, they are being disposed of from God's New World *forever!* Hence, they are thrown into the Lake of Fire *forever,* not to be tortured but to be removed.

Where the Lost go after passing through this "portal" I don't claim to know. The beggar and Lazarus clearly saw each other in Jesus' description, and they were both on land. But one was comforted and the other was thirsty. And there was a great unpassable chasm between them.

And so, I believe God still remains loving even towards His enemies, and will fit them appropriately onto some piece of earth where they can carry out jobs they were created to do, to bring glory to their Creator. That's why I think it will be much like the current earth, because we are inundated with people who do not know God or reject Him. It can be very unhappy here!

As I said, there's a lot of speculation on it because God doesn't seem to want to allow us to wade too deeply into it--it's truly SAD!
 
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Patrick1966

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Hi Randy, It sounds to me like the wicked/unrighteous will be suffering eternally because if they were instantly burned up and removed forever, they wouldn't have the time to, weep/cry or be knashing their teeth, which also implies to be in the flesh from these two descriptions, in order to weep and knash teeth, so I think you're right in the last line that Hell will be like living a "death" sentence in unhappy conditions like the sufferings in this world, various and different kinds of suffering in this world, and they will also have a spiritual thirst or feeling of being deprived because of their lost state (having been given a chance to repent of sin in the past but not anymore) since it will be meaningless and there will be no blessings in Hell apart from God. I also think that Hell will be like a suffering that is enough to make one weep and knash their teeth. That's the extent that I know. I believe in that death still exists but it is under Jesus' feet because I believe God has a pattern: day and night; light and darkness; death and life; eternal death vs eternal life; good and evil; righteous and unrighteous; God and Satan (if there's a "good" God then there has to be an "evil/bad" Satan) like the Law of Opposites, like the even you can say Yin/Yang balance/forces.

That sounds like a sadist's fantasy. How many different forms of torture do you reckon Jesus utilizes? Do you think he uses pliers to rip out fingernails?
 

St. SteVen

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All however, don't want it.
How can this quote above...
1 Timothy 4:10
'For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe'.
... and this scripture be in the same quoted post?

"... the Saviour of all men... " and "All however, don't want it." --- As if they had a choice.


... the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe'.

Especially is a subset of ALL.
 

thelord's_pearl

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That sounds like a sadist's fantasy. How many different forms of torture do you reckon Jesus utilizes? Do you think he uses pliers to rip out fingernails?
I didn't say that! That sick thought came from you, not me! though, that brings to mind that I think that since I've noticed that God applies the law of opposites or balancing forces in the Word, there might be violence in hell vs peace in heaven and there might be sickness and disease in hell vs being healthy in heaven. I am just trying to understand myself what I think the bible means of how hell will be like according to what it says in the Word of God, it's not my fantasy for sure.
 

thelord's_pearl

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I agree with most of what you say. I don't, however, think Satan is the opposite of God--he is just an "insect" to God.

But I hear ya. Sounds like we feel the same way about much of this? We believe people exist eternally in a place called "Eternal Punishment." They are completely removed from this world, but are given new physical bodies in which they can experience sadness and regret?

In my view, the Lost are truly cast into a Lake of Fire forever. But this simply means they pass out of God's Kingdom and into an area of some kind called "Outer Darkness." There is eternal torment, but not eternal "torture." They are separate from God's Kingdom forever, which is why it is called "Eternal Death."

I see the Lake of Fire more as a portal than an eternal furnace. When it is said that people are cast into the Lake of Fire forever it just means that they pass through the portal never more to return. They are in a sense "burned up."

But staying in a furnace to be on fire forever isn't something I would wish on a cockroach! So I don't think Gehenna, a trash dump, was ever intended to convey the sense of being on fire forever, or being tortured as such forever. It was merely a means of disposing of something no longer wanted in the present world. In the case of the Lost, they are being disposed of from God's New World *forever!* Hence, they are thrown into the Lake of Fire *forever,* not to be tortured but to be removed.

Where the Lost go after passing through this "portal" I don't claim to know. The beggar and Lazarus clearly saw each other in Jesus' description, and they were both on land. But one was comforted and the other was thirsty. And there was a great unpassable chasm between them.

And so, I believe God still remains loving even towards His enemies, and will fit them appropriately onto some piece of earth where they can carry out jobs they were created to do, to bring glory to their Creator. That's why I think it will be much like the current earth, because we are inundated with people who do not know God or reject Him. It can be very unhappy here!

As I said, there's a lot of speculation on it because God doesn't seem to want to allow us to wade too deeply into it--it's truly SAD!
Thanks for your reply and thoughts. I'm confused by what you wrote, whether we actually agree or not but it doesn't really matter. I just wanted to say that, yes Satan is an insect to God but I noticed God has a pattern of the "law of opposites or balancing forces" so God had to have or there had to be an adversary (opposing force to Him "the law of opposites and balancing force"), a Satan. God bless. Have a nice week.
 
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Randy Kluth

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Thanks for your reply and thoughts. I'm confused by what you wrote, whether we actually agree or not but it doesn't really matter. I just wanted to say that, yes Satan is an insect to God but I noticed God has a pattern of the "law of opposites or balancing forces" so God had to have or there had to be an adversary (opposing force to Him "the law of opposites and balancing force), a Satan. God bless. Have a nice week.
You too. Thanks for the conversation.
 
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thelord's_pearl

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I think the message about God in this is that God really doesn't want anyone in hell but he hates evil so much that he to put them there by their own choice.
 
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quietthinker

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How can this quote above...

... and this scripture be in the same quoted post?

"... the Saviour of all men... " and "All however, don't want it." --- As if they had a choice.


... the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe'.

Especially is a subset of ALL.
yes....if there were no out for men they would have an excuse yet as it stands there is no excuse for all mankind are recipients of God's Grace in Jesus. Forgiveness extends to all even before they ask, even Judas, who is a type.....and yet he still chooses death over life. Why, because he refused to believe God's generosity included him even though he went through the motions we consider necessary ie, he repented and returned the money.

God's perspective is inclusive, men's perspective exclusive. Men have hoops to jump through before they 'believe' they are loved. One of those hoops is 'faith' (of course they qualify it)

Ultimately, those who trust, those who have fallen in love with the giver (God) those who place no trust in the flesh on any level will realise their salvation subjectively. Those who refuse it, aka having no interest in God's values (his character) will expire as consequence.....and for lack of a better word one could call it punishment (a word that has arbitrary overtones/ implications) where 'consequence' embraces choice freely made......subsequently Paul's expression 'specially those who believe'

I hope I have understood you correctly?
 
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thelord's_pearl

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But that's what you and many others believe, that Jesus tortures people forever.
I want to say sorry if I sounded unloving in my previous post to you, it was not unloving, it was just my reaction and to emphasize and it came out looking that way. I am loving toward people in all walks of life because I always think that they are likely how they are because of how they were brought up. I understand what you're saying. I believe that Jesus rejects and hates evil and as a result of their choice they will be put in the opposite place of heaven which is hell and in other words they will be punished. I don't know about torture but they seem to be pretty much the same thing. Sorry it is just my belief or understanding. I don't really know.
 
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Patrick1966

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I want to say sorry if I sounded unloving in my previous post to you, it was not unloving, it was just my reaction and to emphasize and it came out looking that way. I am loving toward people in all walks of life because I always think that they are likely how they are because of how they were brought up. I understand what you're saying. I believe that Jesus rejects and hates evil and as a result of their choice they will be put in the opposite place of heaven which is hell and in other words they will be punished. I don't know about torture but they seem to be pretty much the same thing. Sorry it is just my belief or understanding. I don't really know.
No worries my sister. I love you. I too believe that the wicked are sent to the Lake of Fire. However, based on the scriptures, I do NOT believe that they remain there forever. You are welcome to join our new thread to discuss this biblically. :)

 
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