LET'S SEE IF JESUS WAS TALKING ABOUT THE RAPTURE OR HIS SECOND COMING WHEN HE SAID, "NO ONE KNOWS THE DAY NOR THE HOUR"

[Timtofly]

Noah and the Flood rebukes the lie of 'pre-trib' rapture.

Noah agrees with Matthew chapter 24 = Immediately after the Tribulation

"and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, even Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come."
1 Thess 1:10

Noah entered the ark after the Flood? The Flood was the tribulation of Noah's Day.

 

[MatthewG]

Isaiah 13:12 says that humans will be as scarce as fine gold.
Revelation 9:15 ....a third of mankind will be killed.

This equates to over 2 billion people, rather a lot more than in 70AD, or 1914 -1918, or any other wars, famines or plagues.
We are now facing the end times and the Prophets have informed us what God plans to do. Be aware and prepared to stand firm in your faith thru it all.

I don’t believe it really matters. You may believe how ever you want to, but a book written mostly to Jewish people would be concerning for their own land, being desolated, no doubt trust and believing in faith towards God and his Son. amen.

Cause if we can’t love God and our neighbors has a person really had deliverance from bondage?

 

[Zao is life]

Some Prophecy things like the 'Beast' and the 'Lamb', are metaphorical or allegories, but the sky being rolled up. that is: being pushed aside, is something that can literally happen.
There are diagrams on the spaceweather.com site, which show how the pressure wave of a big Coronal Mass Ejection does force our atmosphere aside on the half of the earth facing the sun. It will also force our satellites to fall like ripe figs, Revelation 6:13-14

Enough air should still remain for people to breath, but the intense heat, the great earthquakes, the violent storms and the huge tsunamis, will kill millions worldwide. Jeremiah 25:30-33

Then again how the saints of the old Testament understood the metaphor, and the saints in the first century and in the following centuries understood the metaphor, is probably how the saints of the final century are supposed to understand the metaphor. We can of course use our imagination (as you have done in your post above), in which case we can come up with a multitude of scenarios both similar to, and quite unlike yours.

 

[David in NJ]

Some Prophecy things like the 'Beast' and the 'Lamb', are metaphorical or allegories, but the sky being rolled up. that is: being pushed aside, is something that can literally happen.
There are diagrams on the spaceweather.com site, which show how the pressure wave of a big Coronal Mass Ejection does force our atmosphere aside on the half of the earth facing the sun. It will also force our satellites to fall like ripe figs, Revelation 6:13-14

Enough air should still remain for people to breath, but the intense heat, the great earthquakes, the violent storms and the huge tsunamis, will kill millions worldwide. Jeremiah 25:30-33

If what we can see thru technology is vast, including that there are more dimensions then our eyes/senses can detect, then how much more does God retain in His Eternal Authority over all of Creation = both of that which is Seen and that which is Unseen.

 

[Timtofly]

None I wasn't saying that

You do when you state those in Adam's dead flesh remain on earth until the very end. None of what Jesus or Paul wrote declares a post tribulation rapture. Certainly Revelation does not point that out, unless you change the order John gave to suit your eschatology.

No

none that i know of - how about you?

Then how can the church remain on the earth, without shedding Adam's dead corruptible flesh, that is death? The church is translated in the air, and they don't physically die on earth. Jesus and the angels are on earth at the 6th Seal. That is before the 7th Seal, and before the first Trumpet.

"And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind."

That is the 6th Seal, and symbolism of these verses:

"and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."

Jesus puts the angels coming to earth at a Trumpet, and after, during the Trumpets.

"When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:"

The nations are gathered after Jesus is sitting on a throne in Jerusalem. That coming is the 6th Seal. Jesus as King sits in judgment during the Trumpets and Thunders.

Now convince me the church does not meet Jesus in the air at the 6th Seal, but is trying to stay physically alive, on their own power and initiative, because they wanted to stay during the judgment of the Nations all the way through the Trumpets and Thunders. Then the church wants to, in their own power fight Satan during the last 42 months, because they avoided the rapture and Second Coming, they avoided all the Trumpets and Thunders. They avoided getting their heads chopped off, then say look at me God, "I did it".

Since you cannot find any verses claiming they die on earth after the 6th Seal, then according to you they did it on their own, and still alive in Adam's dead corruptible flesh. Even those beheaded are already out of Adam's dead corruptible flesh. Yet you have some church members still in Adam's dead corruptible flesh, still surviving on their own in Adam's dead corruptible flesh.

 

[Timtofly]

It always amazes me how you always think that I’m saying something that I didn’t imply or even believe.

Why would you even ask me if I think time is shortened from 8000 years to 2000 years or that half of the church is cast into hell where do you even come up with this are you just trying to discredit me or make me look crazy?

Revelation 7 is clear that they came out of the great tribulation and the bible ties them to the 5th seal

The great tribulation is the persecution of the church which started on the day Steven was killed and it is still happening today

But it is not the great tribulation after the Second Coming. One ends at the Second Coming, and one happens after the Second Coming. I have to go way out of my way to get you all to see that point.

The church has been gathering in Paradise since the thief on the Cross, including all the OT Assembly, and Stephen. That is great tribulation from the Cross to the Second Coming.

It is not the great tribulation of the 7 Trumpets after the Second Coming. Nor the 42 months given to Satan after the 7th Trumpet has already started to sound.

The church leaves at the 6th Seal. That is before the Trumpets, Thunders, and Satan's 42 months.

That is a post trib rapture and Second Coming, as in the tribulation of the church, which immediately stops at the Second Coming, because the church is no longer found on the earth, period!

And no one knows when that tribulation stops, because it stops at the thief in the night moment. That is the tribulation of those days, the whole, so far 1993 year, fulness of the Gentiles, the church.

But it is not as bad as the greatest tribulation known to man, that starts at the Second Coming. Between the Second Coming and Armageddon all on earth will physically die.

Those in Revelation 7 have been serving God night and day in that heavenly temple, since 30AD. Millions have joined them during the great tribulation of those days, all 1993 years worth of tribulation.

 

[David in NJ]

Noah entered the ark after the Flood? The Flood was the tribulation of Noah's Day.

Children's Bible Time with David in NJ

Know your Genesis ABC's

A - stands for ARK = Noah was building the Ark during the Greatest Tribulation the world had ever seen.

B - stands for BEFORE the Flood = When the Ark was fully prepared, including the required animals, Noah & Family entered the Ark and God shut the Door.

C - stands for CALAMITY = God's Wrath came down and the flood carried everyone away who was not in the ARK.

 

[Keraz]

Then again how the saints of the old Testament understood the metaphor, and the saints in the first century and in the following centuries understood the metaphor, is probably how the saints of the final century are supposed to understand the metaphor. We can of course use our imagination (as you have done in your post above), in which case we can come up with a multitude of scenarios both similar to, and quite unlike yours.

If what we can see thru technology is vast, including that there are more dimensions then our eyes/senses can detect, then how much more does God retain in His Eternal Authority over all of Creation = both of that which is Seen and that which is Unseen.

2 more people whose eyes are blinded and whose ears are stopped. Isaiah 42:18-20

When the Lord does send His fiery wrath from the sun, as the prophets tell us, just to know it is the Lord's punishment of the ungodly peoples, will be a great help for us to survive it, to keep strong in our faith thru it and to look up; as He is near. Luke 21:25-26 & 29

Luke 21:27 - The glorious Return will come after the Seventh Bowl - Armageddon. Revelation 16:16-18

 

[Marty fox]

But it is not the great tribulation after the Second Coming. One ends at the Second Coming, and one happens after the Second Coming. I have to go way out of my way to get you all to see that point.

The church has been gathering in Paradise since the thief on the Cross, including all the OT Assembly, and Stephen. That is great tribulation from the Cross to the Second Coming.

It is not the great tribulation of the 7 Trumpets after the Second Coming. Nor the 42 months given to Satan after the 7th Trumpet has already started to sound.

The church leaves at the 6th Seal. That is before the Trumpets, Thunders, and Satan's 42 months.

That is a post trib rapture and Second Coming, as in the tribulation of the church, which immediately stops at the Second Coming, because the church is no longer found on the earth, period!

And no one knows when that tribulation stops, because it stops at the thief in the night moment. That is the tribulation of those days, the whole, so far 1993 year, fulness of the Gentiles, the church.

But it is not as bad as the greatest tribulation known to man, that starts at the Second Coming. Between the Second Coming and Armageddon all on earth will physically die.

Those in Revelation 7 have been serving God night and day in that heavenly temple, since 30AD. Millions have joined them during the great tribulation of those days, all 1993 years worth of tribulation.

That is your view I believe that the great tribulation which is on the church ends at the second coming which is at the end of our world.

The great tribulation in on the church and the wrath of God is on the unsaved world.

 

[Timtofly]

Children's Bible Time with David in NJ

Know your Genesis ABC's

A - stands for ARK = Noah was building the Ark during the Greatest Tribulation the world had ever seen.

B - stands for BEFORE the Flood = When the Ark was fully prepared, including the required animals, Noah & Family entered the Ark and God shut the Door.

C - stands for CALAMITY = God's Wrath came down and the flood carried everyone away who was not in the ARK.

No Scripture to back up your imagination?

Humans enjoying their wickedness is not tribulation. Now it seemed to cause God a lot of discomfort. That is why He sent the tribulation/Flood.

"And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. And it repented the Lord that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart. And the Lord said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them. But Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord."

There was no pre-flood tribulation. Noah finally was enclosed in the ark, and the judgment/tribulation happened.

"And they that went in, went in male and female of all flesh, as God had commanded him: and the Lord shut him in. And the flood was forty days upon the earth; and the waters increased, and bare up the ark, and it was lift up above the earth. And the waters prevailed, and were increased greatly upon the earth; and the ark went upon the face of the waters. And the waters prevailed exceedingly upon the earth; and all the high hills, that were under the whole heaven, were covered. Fifteen cubits upward did the waters prevail; and the mountains were covered. And all flesh died that moved upon the earth, both of fowl, and of cattle, and of beast, and of every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth, and every man:"

Seems it took 40 days to cover the earth until the tops of the mountains were covered. 40 days of those on the earth trying to save themselves. 40 days of tribulation, no?

"And every living substance was destroyed which was upon the face of the ground, both man, and cattle, and the creeping things, and the fowl of the heaven; and they were destroyed from the earth: and Noah only remained alive, and they that were with him in the ark. And the waters prevailed upon the earth an hundred and fifty days."

 

[David in NJ]

No Scripture to back up your imagination?

Humans enjoying their wickedness is not tribulation. Now it seemed to cause God a lot of discomfort. That is why He sent the tribulation/Flood.

"And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. And it repented the Lord that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart. And the Lord said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them. But Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord."

There was no pre-flood tribulation. Noah finally was enclosed in the ark, and the judgment/tribulation happened.

"And they that went in, went in male and female of all flesh, as God had commanded him: and the Lord shut him in. And the flood was forty days upon the earth; and the waters increased, and bare up the ark, and it was lift up above the earth. And the waters prevailed, and were increased greatly upon the earth; and the ark went upon the face of the waters. And the waters prevailed exceedingly upon the earth; and all the high hills, that were under the whole heaven, were covered. Fifteen cubits upward did the waters prevail; and the mountains were covered. And all flesh died that moved upon the earth, both of fowl, and of cattle, and of beast, and of every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth, and every man:"

Seems it took 40 days to cover the earth until the tops of the mountains were covered. 40 days of those on the earth trying to save themselves. 40 days of tribulation, no?

"And every living substance was destroyed which was upon the face of the ground, both man, and cattle, and the creeping things, and the fowl of the heaven; and they were destroyed from the earth: and Noah only remained alive, and they that were with him in the ark. And the waters prevailed upon the earth an hundred and fifty days."

You said: "Humans enjoying their wickedness is not tribulation."

Well that is really bizarre and anti-Gospel.

 

[No Pre-TB]

As Noah, did Not know when the Flood would be, UNTIL THE RAIN AND FLOOD WATERS were rising;

That is not accurate.

God instructed Noah to collect clean and unclean animals in order to "keep seed alive".
2Of every clean beast thou shalt take to thee by sevens, the male and his female: and of beasts that are not clean by two, the male and his female. 3Of fowls also of the air by sevens, the male and the female; to keep seed alive upon the face of all the earth.

And then, aftre the command was given to start gathering them into the Ark, he said to Noah:

4For yet seven days, and I will cause it to rain upon the earth forty days and forty nights; and every living substance that I have made will I destroy from off the face of the earth. 5And Noah did according unto all that the LORD commanded him.

Noah was aware that God's wrath would happen in 7 days from the command given and he had 7 days to gather the clean/unclean animals to "keep seed alive".

And if you notice, Noah entered the Ark in the same day the rain came. Not 7 years before it like some Pre-Tbs suggest.

10And it came to pass after seven days, that the waters of the flood were upon the earth.
12And the rain was upon the earth forty days and forty nights.
13In the selfsame day entered Noah, and Shem, and Ham, and Japheth, the sons of Noah, and Noah's wife, and the three wives of his sons with them, into the ark;

 

[St. Joseph]

LET'S SEE IF JESUS WAS TALKING ABOUT THE RAPTURE OR HIS SECOND COMING WHEN HE SAID, "NO ONE KNOWS THE DAY NOR THE HOUR"

The Coming of the Son of Man
29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.

Did you notice that verse 29 starts out by Jesus saying, “Immediately after the tribulation of those days."

Jesus is now talking about what events will take place immediately after the tribulation or at the end of the seven-year Tribulation.


THERE IS ONLY ONE QUESTION TO BE ASKED THAT WILL SETTLE THE NO ONE KNOWS DEBATE FOREVER

All will agree that verse 30 comes after verse 29 so that means whatever is said in verse 30 takes place immediately after the Tribulation.

Verse 30 describes the sign of the Son of Man appearing in the heavens.

Q- So here is our big question, Who sees Jesus arriving in the heavens, the world or the Saints?

If it's the entire world that sees Jesus' arrival then It's Jesus's Second Coming but if it's the Saints that see Jesus arrival then it's the Rapture.



OK, LET'S read verse 30 to see if it's the Rapture that no one knows the day or the hour or is it Christ's Second Coming.

V: 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

It's settled, it's the entire world that sees Jesus' arrival so it must be His Second Coming and that's just what He said in verse 29, "immediately after the Tribulation of those days."

So, if verse 30 takes place immediately after the Tribulation of those days then so does verse 31 because everything that Jesus describes after verse 29 He says is taking place after the Tribulation. So, let's read the next event that will take place immediately after the Tribulation of those days.

Oh, look there is a rapture taking place in verse 31.

31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

This is where all my post-Tribulation friends say, "See I told you so that the Rapture takes place at the end of the Tribulation."

Let me show you why it is not remotely possible that the Rapture takes place at the end of the seven-year Tribulation.
So what's going on here?
Let's find out.

Q-What was Jesus's disciples original question at the beginning of Matthew 24?

A- “What will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?” ( Matthew 24:3).

Now let Jesus explain what this rapture is that we read about in verse 31 of Matthew 24 in Matthew 13.

MATTHEW 13
JESUS SPEAKING

37 He replied, “The One who sows the good seed is the Son of Man. 38 The field is the world, and the good seed represents the sons of the kingdom. The weeds are the sons of the evil one, 39 and the enemy who sows them is the devil. The harvest is the end of the age, and the harvesters are angels.

40 As the weeds are collected and burned in the fire, so will it be at the end of the age. 41 The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will weed out of His kingdom every cause of sin and all who practice lawlessness. 42 And they will throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father.


There is the explanation for Matthew 24:31 rapture given by Jesus.

There is going to be another final separation between the sheep and the goats or the weeds from the wheat at the end of the age or immediately after the tribulation of those days.

Now you know that when Jesus said no one knows the day nor the hour He was referring to His Second Coming not the Rapture.

MATTHEW 24:36 also comes after verse 29 where Jesus started to tell us what events will take place immediately after the Tribulation of those days and look at what verse 36 says.

JESUS SPEAKING
36 “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, but My Father only.

CONCLUSION:
Jesus did not say no one can know when the Rapture will take place and that phrase is not even once found in all of Matthew 24.

Saints, it's time to look for when the Rapture will take place.

Join me as I expose the lie of the Devil that no one can know when the Rapture will take place.

I am right now posting messages that clearly show that there are many prophets in the bible that know when the Rapture will take place.

And like I have said many times, is it a mere coincidence that every one of these prophets including Jesus got the exact same timeline for the Rapture? Not one of them gave a different timeline for the Rapture.

So far I have shown that the Prophets Daniel and Paul knew when the Rapture will take place and now I will show you three times Jesus Himself telling us when the Rapture will take place. It's all in the bible.

There is another guy on this forum that has been desperately trying to tell you how close we are to the Tribulation and the Rapture but it would seem that you guys are not listening to him. Just consider what he is saying might be the truth and give him a good listen too.

Eliyahoo

Why couldnt it be both?

 

[No Pre-TB]

Noah left the earth in an ark

He left the Earth? That is science fiction.

The Church will be gone before the seals are opened.

How does Christ cause us to leave Earth BEFORE the seals are opened? The seals contain the scroll. If it's not opened, nothing happens.
Better yet, if you're suggesting we are in heaven before any seal is opened, that conflicts with Job 14:12. Man does not resurrect till the heavens are no more. Are the heaven's are not even removed till the 6th seal making your assumption that we are removed before any seal is opened an impossibility.

Secondly, the first occurrence for the word “wrath” isn't found until the earth dwellers say they believe the wrath is about to begin at Revelation 6:17.

Thirdly, if the first 4 seals were wrath, why are the 5th seal martyrs crying to God asking him to avenge them with his vengeance? If God's wrath had already started, why are they asking it? Obviously, God's wrath had not come yet.

Fourth, the first instance of a heavenly judgment isn't shown until the 144k are sealed when the angel throws fire towards the earth in Rev 8:5

Fifth, 2 Timothy 4:1 tell's us that the resurrection happens at Christ appearing and HIS Kingdom.

I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom

And if that is not enough to show you we will not resurrect till he reigns, you could always read Isaiah 25.

6And in this mountain shall the LORD of hosts make unto all people a feast of fat things, a feast of wines on the lees, of fat things full of marrow, of wines on the lees well refined.
7And he will destroy in this mountain the face of the covering cast over all people, and the vail that is spread over all nations.
8He will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord GOD will wipe away tears from off all faces; and the rebuke of his people shall he take away from off all the earth: for the LORD hath spoken it.
9And it shall be said in that day, Lo, this is our God; we have waited for him, and he will save us: this is the LORD; we have waited for him, we will be glad and rejoice in his salvation.

When is death swallowed up in victory? In this mountain, when Christ reigns per Revelation 11:15. The same exact time the bride makes herself ready per Revelation 19.

6And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.
7Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.

 

[The Light]

He left the Earth? That is science fiction.

He left the surface of the earth and was far above the highest mountain peak.

How does Christ cause us to leave Earth BEFORE the seals are opened?

The fullness of the Gentiles comes in before the time of Jacobs trouble begins.

The seals contain the scroll. If it's not opened, nothing happens.
Better yet, if you're suggesting we are in heaven before any seal is opened, that conflicts with Job 14:12. Man does not resurrect till the heavens are no more. Are the heaven's are not even removed till the 6th seal making your assumption that we are removed before any seal is opened an impossibility.

You are not keeping Job 14:12 in context.

Job 14
10 But man dieth, and wasteth away: yea, man giveth up the ghost, and where is he?

11 As the waters fail from the sea, and the flood decayeth and drieth up:

12 So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep.

13 O that thou wouldest hide me in the grave, that thou wouldest keep me secret, until thy wrath be past, that thou wouldest appoint me a set time, and remember me!

14 If a man die, shall he live again? all the days of my appointed time will I wait, till my change come.

Job 14 is talking about those that died before the flood. We can prove that, not only by the text but by Daniel 12. In Job 14 we see that these stay in the grave UNTIL THY WRATH BE PAST.

So in Job 14 we see that those that were before the flood will be in the grave until thy wrath be past. That happens AFTER the 7th trumpet.

Revelation 11
15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,

17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.

18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

When we look at Daniel 12 we see that there are dead that are raised after the great tribulation. Many that sleep in the ground are raised BEFORE the wrath of God.

Daniel 12
And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Long story short, those dead before the flood will be raised after the wrath of God. The people of Daniel are raised from the dead BEFORE wrath of God. And the dead in Christ are raised BEFORE the seals are opened.

Secondly, the first occurrence for the word “wrath” isn't found until the earth dwellers say they believe the wrath is about to begin at Revelation 6:17.

Answered above.

Thirdly, if the first 4 seals were wrath, why are the 5th seal martyrs crying to God asking him to avenge them with his vengeance? If God's wrath had already started, why are they asking it? Obviously, God's wrath had not come yet.

Yes. Obviously, Gods wrath had not come yet.
I am not saying that the first four seals are wrath. The tribulation is over with the coming of Jesus AT THE 6TH SEAL. Then the wrath of God begins.

Fourth, the first instance of a heavenly judgment isn't shown until the 144k are sealed when the angel throws fire towards the earth in Rev 8:5

Not correct. We can see by Daniel 12 that many are raised after the great tribulation before the wrath of God. That said, the 144,000 are actually sealed earlier in the 1st 4 seals. We can prove that by Revelation 14, but I'm pretty sure you don't see that which of course does not change your point.

The real point is that there is a coming of Jesus at the 6th seal when many of the people of Daniel are raised which is before wrath and there are those that are raised after wrath.

Fifth, 2 Timothy 4:1 tell's us that the resurrection happens at Christ appearing and HIS Kingdom.

I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom

This only proves what I'm saying. The Lord will judge the dead at His appearing. His appearing in the clouds occurs at the 6th seal. We get a view of that appearing in Revelation 14 BEFORE WRATH.

Revelation 14
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.

18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.

19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

So there is judgement AT HIS APPEARING which is before wrath and then there is judgement at His kingdom which occurs after wrath at the 7th trumpet. This is when the Lord returns and set up His kingdom on earth.

Revelation 11
15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

And if that is not enough to show you we will not resurrect till he reigns, you could always read Isaiah 25.

Well, it wasn't enough as all your points have been addressed in context. I do appreciate that you provided scripture to support your position, though I think you missed the boat.

Isaiah 25.
6And in this mountain shall the LORD of hosts make unto all people a feast of fat things, a feast of wines on the lees, of fat things full of marrow, of wines on the lees well refined.
7And he will destroy in this mountain the face of the covering cast over all people, and the vail that is spread over all nations.
8He will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord GOD will wipe away tears from off all faces; and the rebuke of his people shall he take away from off all the earth: for the LORD hath spoken it.
9And it shall be said in that day, Lo, this is our God; we have waited for him, and he will save us: this is the LORD; we have waited for him, we will be glad and rejoice in his salvation.

8He will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord GOD will wipe away tears from off all faces; and the rebuke of his people shall he take away from off all the earth: for the LORD hath spoken it.
9And it shall be said in that day, Lo, this is our God; we have waited for him, and he will save us: this is the LORD; we have waited for him, we will be glad and rejoice in his salvation.

As you say. This happens at the 7th trumpet when God sets up His kingdom and it is those in the nation of Israel that have fled to a place of protection that is being discussed. It is the Lord coming for the prodigal son.

 

[The Light]

When is death swallowed up in victory? In this mountain, when Christ reigns per Revelation 11:15. The same exact time the bride makes herself ready per Revelation 19.

I agree that what is being discussed occurs when Christ reigns, but this is not the time the bride makes herself ready.

The Church is the first harvest. The bride will make herself ready before the seals are opened. Then the final week begins with the confirming of the covenant. God turns His attention to His Chosen. Jacob had two brides, Leah and the Chosen bride Rachel. The second bride will be ready for His coming at the 6th seal. Then the wrath of God begins. Only those of the nation of Israel that flee to the place of protection and unbelievers will be on earth during the wrath of God.

6And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.
7Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.

This happens at the 6th seal. Here is the great multitude

Revelation 7
9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.

After the 1 year wrath of God the armies of heaven will return to the earth.

 

[David in NJ]

He left the surface of the earth and was far above the highest mountain peak.


The fullness of the Gentiles comes in before the time of Jacobs trouble begins.

You are not keeping Job 14:12 in context.

Job 14
10 But man dieth, and wasteth away: yea, man giveth up the ghost, and where is he?

11 As the waters fail from the sea, and the flood decayeth and drieth up:

12 So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep.

13 O that thou wouldest hide me in the grave, that thou wouldest keep me secret, until thy wrath be past, that thou wouldest appoint me a set time, and remember me!

14 If a man die, shall he live again? all the days of my appointed time will I wait, till my change come.

Job 14 is talking about those that died before the flood. We can prove that, not only by the text but by Daniel 12. In Job 14 we see that these stay in the grave UNTIL THY WRATH BE PAST.

So in Job 14 we see that those that were before the flood will be in the grave until thy wrath be past. That happens AFTER the 7th trumpet.

Revelation 11
15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,

17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.

18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

When we look at Daniel 12 we see that there are dead that are raised after the great tribulation. Many that sleep in the ground are raised BEFORE the wrath of God.

Daniel 12
And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Long story short, those dead before the flood will be raised after the wrath of God. The people of Daniel are raised from the dead BEFORE wrath of God. And the dead in Christ are raised BEFORE the seals are opened.


Answered above.

Yes. Obviously, Gods wrath had not come yet.
I am not saying that the first four seals are wrath. The tribulation is over with the coming of Jesus AT THE 6TH SEAL. Then the wrath of God begins.

Not correct. We can see by Daniel 12 that many are raised after the great tribulation before the wrath of God. That said, the 144,000 are actually sealed earlier in the 1st 4 seals. We can prove that by Revelation 14, but I'm pretty sure you don't see that which of course does not change your point.

The real point is that there is a coming of Jesus at the 6th seal when many of the people of Daniel are raised which is before wrath and there are those that are raised after wrath.


This only proves what I'm saying. The Lord will judge the dead at His appearing. His appearing in the clouds occurs at the 6th seal. We get a view of that appearing in Revelation 14 BEFORE WRATH.

Revelation 14
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.

18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.

19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

So there is judgement AT HIS APPEARING which is before wrath and then there is judgement at His kingdom which occurs after wrath at the 7th trumpet. This is when the Lord returns and set up His kingdom on earth.

Revelation 11
15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.


Well, it wasn't enough as all your points have been addressed in context. I do appreciate that you provided scripture to support your position, though I think you missed the boat.


8He will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord GOD will wipe away tears from off all faces; and the rebuke of his people shall he take away from off all the earth: for the LORD hath spoken it.
9And it shall be said in that day, Lo, this is our God; we have waited for him, and he will save us: this is the LORD; we have waited for him, we will be glad and rejoice in his salvation.

As you say. This happens at the 7th trumpet when God sets up His kingdom and it is those in the nation of Israel that have fled to a place of protection that is being discussed. It is the Lord coming for the prodigal son.

You said: "The fullness of the Gentiles comes in before the time of Jacobs trouble begins."

Please post the scripture that declares this.

 

[No Pre-TB]

He left the surface of the earth and was far above the highest mountain peak.

That does not mean he left the Earth. No different then taking a cruise on carnival or flying in a plane. Still on Earth, just over water.

The fullness of the Gentiles comes in before the time of Jacobs trouble begins.

Well, I partly agree. The fullness of the Gentiles comes in before his out poured wrath begins in the bowls. If you notice, the saints are seen in the 5th seal as well as those asked to come out of Mystery Babylon and those who are cautioned not to take the mark to name a few. The door is still open till they very last minute.

You are not keeping Job 14:12 in context.

I think I am.

Job 14 is talking about those that died before the flood.

I have no idea how you come to that conclusion. It is found nowhere in the text. If you read Job 14:11 and 12, what it actually said is:
As waters when they fail from the sea, or get out of lakes, and into another channel, never return more; and as a flood, occasioned by the waters of a river overflowing its banks, never return into it more; so man, when he dies, never returns to this world any more.

It has not anything to do with Noah's flood. Not one commentator, not 1 Pre-TB that I'm aware of (Walvoord, Tommy Ice etc.), or otherwise will say so.

12 So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep.

That is, until the time of the general resurrection and restitution of all things, when these visible heavens shall pass away, and be no more, at least in the same form in which they are now.

In verses 13-15 Job looks forward to a better world than the one he currently lived in, to come.

When we look at Daniel 12 we see that there are dead that are raised after the great tribulation.

Agree

Many that sleep in the ground are raised BEFORE the wrath of God.

Agree

Long story short, those dead before the flood will be raised after the wrath of God. The people of Daniel are raised from the dead BEFORE wrath of God. And the dead in Christ are raised BEFORE the seals are opened.

Disagree.
Everyone written in the lamb's book of life will be resurrected at the First resurrection. That encompasses OT and NT saints before God's out poured wrath. There are not 3 perfect resurrections (one for Christians, one for Daniel's people and one for the wicked). That is not scriptural. There is only the first resurrection and the second. A resurrection for the Just and the Unjust. One for those who are Christ at his appearing and one at the GWTJ. Separating believers from OT saints is contrary to everything Paul taught. We are grafted into the already existing Olive tree that existed before Christ came in flesh. We do not have a tree for us and a tree for them.

AT THE 6TH SEAL. Then the wrath of God begins.

What wrath and on whom?

Not correct. We can see by Daniel 12 that many are raised after the great tribulation before the wrath of God.

I don't disagree that we are raised before God's wrath. But my comment still stands, the first instance of a heavenly judgment isn't shown until the 144k are sealed when the angel throws fire towards the earth in Rev 8:5.

The real point is that there is a coming of Jesus at the 6th seal when many of the people of Daniel are raised which is before wrath and there are those that are raised after wrath.

Although I agree when the 6th seal happens, Christ rises to declare his majesty and make himself known; that event is not the resurrection for he must reign. All nations are not under him at the 6th seal. He is not going to reward us till the bride has made herself ready.
There are no 2 resurrections of the Just. That could be considered heresy.

Like many here, everyone is calling the Lord's wrath 1 single event and trying to pin-point when it begins. Let me say this in brotherly love, there is more to it than that. God's judgments come in 3 forms.

Deut 32:43
Rejoice, O ye nations, with his people: for he will avenge the blood of his servants, and will render vengeance to his adversaries, and will be merciful unto his land, and to his people.

1. He will avenge the blood of his servants: Rev 6:9, Rev 18:20, Rev 19:2 on Mystery Babylon. His Orge in the first 4 Trumpets
2. Renders vengeance to his adversaries: Matt 13:41-42, 2 Thess 1:7-8, Rev 16 bowls, Jeremiah 46:8-10 and found in Rev 19:15. His Thumos in the bowls when he reigns.
3. Grants mercy to us: Revelation 22:14 in his Kingdom

The wrath of God against men is different than his judgment on Babylon. But you seem to be putting it all in the same pot. Don't confuse the two. They are very different and at different times.

 

[No Pre-TB]

I agree that what is being discussed occurs when Christ reigns, but this is not the time the bride makes herself ready.

6And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.
7Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready. 8And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

It is exactly the time when she makes herself ready per Rev 19. It is a marker for the 7th trumpet because Rev 11 says,

The Seventh Trumpet
15And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. 16And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God, 17Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.

The bride was not ready before that time. She was not worthy of white linen. To say the bride was, youd have to demonstrate she was ready and then wasnt ready and then became ready again which doesn't make sense. If she was ready, how could New Jerusalem come twice? When Christ talks about going to prepare a place for us, it is the New Jerusalem on a New Earth. A place where we are no longer sojourners in a strange land. We will have a place whose maker and builder is God. Those things cannot happen till the 7th Trumpet. And if you follow along with Rev 11, you'd see the fullness of the Gentiles comes when Christ begins to reign because it is then when he is King over all the earth.

The question in Revelation kept asking, When will they fear God? Consistently through Revelation and today, man doesn't reverence God. But right before the 7th trumpet is blown, mankind does.

And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.

As 1 commentator puts it perfectly,
will acknowledge the justice of God, and the righteousness of his judgments upon those that were slain, and his goodness to them who are spared; will confess their transgressions and sins they have been guilty of; and give the glory of their deliverance, not to their idols and images, but to the true God, whose religion they now embrace; for this respects the large conversions among the Popish party to the true religion, under the influence of the grace of God, through the preaching of the Gospel, which will now be spread throughout the world.

 

[The Light]

You said: "The fullness of the Gentiles comes in before the time of Jacobs trouble begins."

Please post the scripture that declares this.

Romans 11
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

Daniel 9
24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

Part of Israel cannot see until the fullness of the Gentiles comes in. The 70th week of Daniel is about the people of Daniel and has nothing to do with the Church.

God will keep His promise to His Chosen.