LET'S SEE IF JESUS WAS TALKING ABOUT THE RAPTURE OR HIS SECOND COMING WHEN HE SAID, "NO ONE KNOWS THE DAY NOR THE HOUR"

[Fullness of the Gentiles]

Ponder this = "Then the sky receded as a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island was moved out of its place."

I believe it's prophetic language, "figuratively speaking". Metaphor. The same was said in the prophecy regarding the coming judgment of Babylon 2,500 years ago:

Isaiah 34:4:
And all the host of the heavens shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled like a scroll; and all their host shall droop, as a leaf falls off from the vine, and as the falling from the fig tree.

Isaiah 34:8-10:
For it is the day of the LORD's vengeance, the year to repay for the fighting against Zion. And its streams shall be turned into pitch, and its dust to brimstone, and its land shall become burning pitch. It shall not be put out night or day; its smoke shall go up forever. From generation to generation it shall lie waste; none passes through it forever and forever.

There is a lot of metaphor and hyperbole in prophetic language. It's common in the ancient world.

 

[Fullness of the Gentiles]

YES = Unveiling = 'Look at this here, OK now look at this, Got it? Yes, OK now Look at this.....'

The Unveiling all points back to the OT Prophetic Word and Promises = and the Word that became Flesh and His Death & Resurrection and the Holy Spirit and the Saints and the Faith of the Saints and the wicked one and the Battles and the VICTORY = GLORY

Yes, it's like transparent sheets of paper. The outer sheet is the skin, beneath that sheet is the sheet showing the muscles and sinews and veins and blood vessels, and beneath that is the sheet showing the skeleton. First the sheet showing the skeleton is given, then the transparent sheet showing the muscles etc over the skeleton is placed on top of it, lastly the transparent sheet showing the skin. Once all the sheets have been laid one on top of the other, the entire picture is visible, because the sheets are transparent.

I saw just such transparent sheets made of plastic, each imprinted with different parts of the same body, in a hospital or doctor's consulting room decades ago. I don't even remember exactly where or when, but the image remained in my mind, because I thought it was clever. I was a child. The Revelation is the same. The seals, the trumpets and the bowls do not necessarily follow one another. It's an unveiling, or rather, a series of unveiings.

 

[David in NJ]

I believe it's prophetic language, "figuratively speaking". Metaphor. The same was said in the prophecy regarding the coming judgment of Babylon 2,500 years ago:

Isaiah 34:4:
And all the host of the heavens shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled like a scroll; and all their host shall droop, as a leaf falls off from the vine, and as the falling from the fig tree.

Isaiah 34:8-10:
For it is the day of the LORD's vengeance, the year to repay for the fighting against Zion. And its streams shall be turned into pitch, and its dust to brimstone, and its land shall become burning pitch. It shall not be put out night or day; its smoke shall go up forever. From generation to generation it shall lie waste; none passes through it forever and forever.

There is a lot of metaphor and hyperbole in prophetic language. It's common in the ancient world.

i believe it is referring to this:
"For nothing is secret that will not be revealed, nor anything hidden that will not be known and come to light."

"And there is no creature hidden from His sight, but all things are naked and open to the eyes of Him to whom we must give account."

the final unveiling when every eye shall see Him

 

[David in NJ]

It's like transparent sheets of paper. The outer sheet is the skin, beneath that sheet is the sheet showing the muscles and sinews and veins and blood vessels, and beneath that is the sheet showing the skeleton. First the sheet showing the skeleton is given, then the transparent sheet showing the muscles etc over the skeleton is place on top of it, lastly the transparent sheet showing the skin. Once all the sheets have been laid one on top of the other, the entire picture is visible.

I saw just such sheets in a hospital or doctor's consulting room decades ago. The Revelation is the same. The seals, the trumpets and the bowls do not follow one another.

When we allow Scripture and the Holy Spirit to teach us He opens/enlarges our understanding so that we can see more clearly.

Once we begin to force our own agenda/view upon scripture our vision becomes stagnant and two dimensional.

 

[Fullness of the Gentiles]

i believe it is referring to this:
"For nothing is secret that will not be revealed, nor anything hidden that will not be known and come to light."

"And there is no creature hidden from His sight, but all things are naked and open to the eyes of Him to whom we must give account."

the final unveiling when every eye shall see Him

Yes. I think you are right. The sky receding like a scroll is a metaphor for just that.

@David in NJ Not that I think understand everything I read in Revelation, or believe I have everything I believe, correct, but I don't believe the Israelites had crossed through the red sea before the plagues were poured out upon Egypt. The deliverance of God's people = the judgment of Pharaoh/the beast (Same day. Same "hour". The 7th trumpet and the 7th bowl of wrath).

@David in NJ That's why in the middle of the 6th bowl Jesus Himself interjects with:

Behold, I am coming as a thief. Blessed is the one who watches and keeps his garments, lest he walk naked and they see his shame. (Rev.16:15), because it's this:

29 And immediately after the tribulation of those days, the sun shall be darkened and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from the heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken.
30 And then the sign of the Son of man shall appear in the heavens. And then all the tribes of the earth shall mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of the heaven with power and great glory.
31 And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

So Jesus has not told us the day or the hour He is coming, but He has given us the sign He is about to come. The great tribulation of God's people under the hand of "Pharaoh" (the beast). And the sign it is upon us is the beast's appearance in the holy place (2 Thessalonians 2:4; Matthew 24:15).

 

[MatthewG]

Time and hour not know, but scenes that Jesus foretold about? Seen. Closer and quickly comes in addressing the believers then in that time. The collective whole has a lot going for it, than a single text line of something Jesus said. The times were seen but that exact moment in being taken wasn’t, but I believe this in 70Ad those looking were raptured and taken; at a time and an hour that was when it was.


What does that mean today? Everyone will die and experience meeting Jesus with judgment and given their place either inside or outside of the kingdom.

When it comes to the single verse today “the hour and day not known” that to me means DEATH.

But you may disagree and that is okay, may you carry on brother or sister.

 

[Fullness of the Gentiles]

When we allow Scripture and the Holy Spirit to teach us He opens/enlarges our understanding so that we can see more clearly.

Once we begin to force our own agenda/view upon scripture our vision becomes stagnant and two dimensional.

It's a mystery to me why people don't allow scripture to change their minds every time it's shown in scripture that what they believe regarding a certain thing is false. I don't even feel disappointed when scripture "points out" to me that I was wrong in the way I was interpreting something. I feel joy.

 

[Fullness of the Gentiles]

Time and hour not know, but scenes that Jesus foretold about? Seen. Closer and quickly comes in addressing the believers then in that time. The collective whole has a lot going for it, than a single text line of something Jesus said. The times were seen but that exact moment in being taken wasn’t, but I believe this in 70Ad those looking were raptured and taken; at a time and an hour that was when it was.


What does that mean today? Everyone will die and experience meeting Jesus with judgment and given their place either inside or outside of the kingdom.

When it comes to the single verse today “the hour and day not known” that to me means DEATH.

But you may disagree and that is okay, may you carry on brother or sister.

Yes I disagree, and I find it very concerning that people who believe in Jesus have come to believe that the road we are still going to have to take before He returns is easy because either the difficult part was already faced by someone else 2,000 years ago and His Kingdom came in 70 A.D, or we will be snatched away before it can affect us.

Jesus warned the last generation of Christians that will be around at the time of His return, the time of the end of the age, of what is going to come. False teaching seeks to undo whatever He taught. I'm saying that without condemning the people who come under the influence of the doctrines you express in your post, but it is very saddening and concerning.

 

[MatthewG]

That’s fine carry on your own way. Salvation is worked out on your own. I just simply can’t believe that Jesus lied. That is a perception people has to really concluded on their own conclusions.

I love you, and anyone who disagrees.

 

[David in NJ]

Yes. I think you are right. The sky receding like a scroll is a metaphor for just that.

@David in NJ Not that I think understand everything I read in Revelation, or believe I have everything I believe, correct, but I don't believe the Israelites had crossed through the red sea before the plagues were poured out upon Egypt. The deliverance of God's people = the judgment of Pharaoh/the beast (Same day. Same "hour". The 7th trumpet and the 7th bowl of wrath).

@David in NJ That's why in the middle of the 6th bowl Jesus Himself interjects with:

Behold, I am coming as a thief. Blessed is the one who watches and keeps his garments, lest he walk naked and they see his shame. (Rev.16:15), because it's this:

29 And immediately after the tribulation of those days, the sun shall be darkened and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from the heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken.
30 And then the sign of the Son of man shall appear in the heavens. And then all the tribes of the earth shall mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of the heaven with power and great glory.
31 And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

So Jesus has not told us the day or the hour He is coming, but He has given us the sign He is about to come. The great tribulation of God's people under the hand of "Pharaoh" (the beast). And the sign it is upon us is the beast's appearance in the holy place (2 Thessalonians 2:4; Matthew 24:15).

ditto

 

[The Light]

6th seal, 6th trumpet, 6th bowl of wrath. 666. ​

The sixth seal has nothing to do with the 6th trumpet or the 6th bowl. The sixth seal is the coming of Jesus prior to wrath.

7th seal, 7th trumpet, 7th bowl of wrath. 777.

The 7th seal is opened before the wrath of God is released. The 7th trumpet is the end of wrath as also the 7th bowl is the end of wrath.

The seals, trumpets and bowls of the Revelation (unveiling) are not a series of chronological events. It is an unveiling.

There is no resurrection and rapture before Christ appears. And in Revelation 16:15 He tells us when He will appear. That is why it's there. Jesus is telling us when He will appear. It's the first time He speaks directly to His churches after the messages to each of the seven churches. It's exactly the same as this:
​

29 And immediately after the tribulation of those days, the sun shall be darkened and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from the heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken.
30 And then the sign of the Son of man shall appear in the heavens. And then all the tribes of the earth shall mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of the heaven with power and great glory.
31 And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other. Matthew 24.

Jesus returns for the Church before the seals are opened. This is the rapture of the Church. Jesus returns for the seed of the woman, the twelve tribes across the earth, at the 6th seal. Then the 7th seal is opened and the wrath of God begins. The 7th trumpet is the end of wrath just as the 7th bowl is the end of wrath.

 

[Timtofly]

But chapter 7 shows that saints from all nations perish in the great tribulation they are in heaven because they died on earth your view is proved wrong in the scriptures

What verse says the righteous die on earth, while Jesus is on earth, judging people?

 

[David in NJ]

No

What verse says the righteous die on earth, while Jesus is on earth, judging people?

none that i know of - how about you?

 

[MatthewG]

If Jesus said if you believe in me you shall not die, but everyone dies that believes in him, was Jesus a liar?

 

[Keraz]

Yes. I think you are right. The sky receding like a scroll is a metaphor for just that.

Some Prophecy things like the 'Beast' and the 'Lamb', are metaphorical or allegories, but the sky being rolled up. that is: being pushed aside, is something that can literally happen.
There are diagrams on the spaceweather.com site, which show how the pressure wave of a big Coronal Mass Ejection does force our atmosphere aside on the half of the earth facing the sun. It will also force our satellites to fall like ripe figs, Revelation 6:13-14

Enough air should still remain for people to breath, but the intense heat, the great earthquakes, the violent storms and the huge tsunamis, will kill millions worldwide. Jeremiah 25:30-33

 

[Marty fox]

What verse says the righteous die on earth, while Jesus is on earth, judging people?

None I wasn't saying that

 

[Timtofly]

And he said, “These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb."

Are you saying the time of greatest trouble ever known to man has lasted 1993 years since the Cross?

That contradicts the point these days will be shortened. Are you saying it is shortened down from 8,000 years to 2,000 years?

The fulness of the Gentiles has been great tribulation off and on. That tribulation has been non stop for the most part. Even the apostate church persecuted and killed the true church.

That is not the GT Jesus is talking about at the Second Coming. That would be Jacob's trouble that is the shortened greatest tribulation ever. The Great Tribulation is the Trumpets and Thunders, judgment from God, Jesus, other humans, and Satan and his angels are loosed upon the earth. It is great because Adam's flesh has to die. The goats are thrown into the LOF in front of the whole world.

Are you saying half the church is also tossed into the LOF, because they were not raptured, but left on earth at the Second Coming? Those in Revelation 7 in heaven are those raptured at the Second Coming before the Trumpets even started. They are there before the 7th Seal is even opened. Before the first Trumpet even sounds.

 

[MatthewG]

Some Prophecy things like the 'Beast' and the 'Lamb', are metaphorical or allegories, but the sky being rolled up. that is: being pushed aside, is something that can literally happen.
There are diagrams on the spaceweather.com site, which show how the pressure wave of a big Coronal Mass Ejection does force our atmosphere aside on the half of the earth facing the sun. It will also force our satellites to fall like ripe figs, Revelation 6:13-14

Enough air should still remain for people to breath, but the intense heat, the great earthquakes, the violent storms and the huge tsunamis, will kill millions worldwide. Jeremiah 25:30-33

At least a million did die in 70Ad. It was astronomical considering the time, a desolation and ruin.

 

[Keraz]

At least a million did die in 70Ad. It was astronomical considering the time, a desolation and ruin.

Isaiah 13:12 says that humans will be as scarce as fine gold.
Revelation 9:15 ....a third of mankind will be killed.

This equates to over 2 billion people, rather a lot more than in 70AD, or 1914 -1918, or any other wars, famines or plagues.
We are now facing the end times and the Prophets have informed us what God plans to do. Be aware and prepared to stand firm in your faith thru it all.

 

[Marty fox]

Are you saying the time of greatest trouble ever known to man has lasted 1993 years since the Cross?

That contradicts the point these days will be shortened. Are you saying it is shortened down from 8,000 years to 2,000 years?

The fulness of the Gentiles has been great tribulation off and on. That tribulation has been non stop for the most part. Even the apostate church persecuted and killed the true church.

That is not the GT Jesus is talking about at the Second Coming. That would be Jacob's trouble that is the shortened greatest tribulation ever. The Great Tribulation is the Trumpets and Thunders, judgment from God, Jesus, other humans, and Satan and his angels are loosed upon the earth. It is great because Adam's flesh has to die. The goats are thrown into the LOF in front of the whole world.

Are you saying half the church is also tossed into the LOF, because they were not raptured, but left on earth at the Second Coming? Those in Revelation 7 in heaven are those raptured at the Second Coming before the Trumpets even started. They are there before the 7th Seal is even opened. Before the first Trumpet even sounds.

It always amazes me how you always think that I’m saying something that I didn’t imply or even believe.

Why would you even ask me if I think time is shortened from 8000 years to 2000 years or that half of the church is cast into hell where do you even come up with this are you just trying to discredit me or make me look crazy?

Revelation 7 is clear that they came out of the great tribulation and the bible ties them to the 5th seal

The great tribulation is the persecution of the church which started on the day Steven was killed and it is still happening today