Limited Atonement VS Universal Atonement

[BreadOfLife]

I don't think anyone is denying the agape love in Hebrews, rather we deny the contradiction that there is no further sacrifice made for sins when Christ died for all sin, contradictions in the same chapter Heb 10:1-18, and what does he say about you.. Jhn 9:35-41

Heb 6:9 Even though we speak like this, dear (agapétos) friends, we are convinced of better things in your case—the things that have to do with salvation.

agapétos: beloved
Original Word: ἀγαπητός, ή, όν
Part of Speech: Adjective
Transliteration: agapétos
Phonetic Spelling: (ag-ap-ay-tos')
Definition: beloved

Usage: loved, beloved, with two special applications: the Beloved, a title of the Messiah (Christ), as beloved beyond all others by the God who sent Him; of Christians, as beloved by God, Christ, and one another.

HELPS Word-studies
27 agapētós (a verbal adjective, derived from 26 /agápē, "love") – properly, divinely-loved; beloved ("loved by God"), i.e. personally experiencing God's "agapē-love."

Soooooo - you actually believe that the Bible - the inerrant Word of Almighty God contradicts itself??

UNBELIEVABLE . . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

Again, you are pitting scripture against scripture instead of considering the scriptures being presented by the opposite pov of what you believe...

re #757.

No, I'm not - YOU are, by cherry-picking verses.
ALL Scripture must harmonize or it is ALL a lie.

 

[justbyfaith]

No, I'm not

Yes, you are...

 

[BreadOfLife]

That's what you think...the fulness of the Godhead is not a mere 1/3 of Deity.

Jesus is FULLY God and FULLY Man.
He's not 1/3 of a Deity - and He's NOT all 3 Persons of the Trinity.

I beg to differ. Acts 2:38 says clearly, Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Where is the Father mentioned?

In Matt. 28:19.
JESUS - who is not only Peter's BOSS, but Peter's GOD told him to baptize in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.

WHY do you ignore the commands of Christ??

Living water is the Holy Spirit; however the prototype for baptism in scripture was the baptism of John, which was in physical water.

No - "living water" is running water (a river, creek, etc.).
The Didache was the Teachings of the Twelve Apostles, written while most of them were still alive (AD 50) and gave explicit instructions for how to Baptize people.

I do not find the word epignosis in every one of those passages. It may not even be in any of them. Wouldn't it be translated as "knowledge" in the English?

NOPE.

The words Gnosis and Oida are used for mere intellectual knowledge or mental assent.
EPIGNOSIS connotes a FULL and EXPERIENTIAL knowledge - much like a married couple has for each other.

I gave you guys a list of PROTESTANT scholarship on the definition of Epignosis and EVERY ONE of you has come up with denials and excuses about the validity of this word in Scripture.
One Protestant source defines it as "CHRISTIAN FAITH":

Richard Chenevix Trench notes, “In comparing epignosis with gnosis, the “epi” must be regarded as an intensive use of a preposition that gives the compound word a greater strength than the simple word alone possesses” (Synonyms of the New Testament, page 300).

Quoting Culverwell, he writes, “Epignosis and gnosis differ. Epignosis is the complete comprehension after the first knowledge (gnosin) of a matter. It is bringing me better acquainted with a thing I knew before; a more exact viewing of an object that I saw before afar off. That little portion of knowledge which we had here shall be much improved, our eye shall be raised to see the things more strongly and clearly” (Synonyms of the New Testament, page 300).

He goes on to say on the same page, “All Paul’s uses of epignosis justify and bear out this distinction. This same intensive use of epignosis is confirmed by similar passages in the New Testament and in the Septuagint. It also was recognized by the Greek fathers. Thus Chrysostom stated: ‘You knew (egnote), but it is necessary to know thoroughly (epignonai).”

J.B. Lightfoot commenting on epignosis, notes, “The compound epignosis is an advance upon gnosis, denoting a larger and more thorough knowledge...Hence also epignosis is used especially of the knowledge of God and of Christ, as being the perfection of knowledge” (St. Paul’s Epistles to the Colossians and Philemon, page 138).

Vine's Expository Dictionary of Biblical Words, “epignosis, akin to A, No. 3, denotes "exact or full knowledge, discernment, recognition,"

The New Thayer’s Greek-English Lexicon (page 237):
1. Precise and correct knowledge
2. Knowledge of things ethical and divine
3. Of God, especially knowledge of His holy will and of the blessings which He has bestowed and constantly bestows on men through Christ
4. Of Christ, i.e., the true knowledge of Christ’s nature, dignity, benefits
5. Of God and Christ, i.e., to keep the knowledge of the one true God which has illumined the soul

Exegetical Dictionary of the New Testament, volume 2, page 25:
1. Knowledge as recognition of the will of God that is effective in the conduct of the one who knows God
2. Christian faith[/QUOTE]

 

[BreadOfLife]

Yes, you are...

That's a non-answer . . .

 

[justbyfaith]

and He's NOT all 3 Persons of the Trinity.

He is definitely the 2nd Person...He is indwelt by one Spirit (Ephesians 4:4, John 4:23-24, John 7:39, John 14:7-11)

In Matt. 28:19.
JESUS - who is not only Peter's BOSS, but Peter's GOD told him to baptize in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.

WHY do you ignore the commands of Christ??

Was Peter being disobedient in Acts of the Apostles 2:38?

No - "living water" is running water (a river, creek, etc.).

See John 7:37-39, John 4:13-14, and John 6:35.

NOPE.

The words Gnosis and Oida are used for mere intellectual knowledge or mental assent.
EPIGNOSIS connotes a FULL and EXPERIENTIAL knowledge - much like a married couple has for each other.

I gave you guys a list of PROTESTANT scholarship on the definition of Epignosis and EVERY ONE of you has come up with denials and excuses about the validity of this word in Scripture.
One Protestant source defines it as "CHRISTIAN FAITH":

Richard Chenevix Trench notes, “In comparing epignosis with gnosis, the “epi” must be regarded as an intensive use of a preposition that gives the compound word a greater strength than the simple word alone possesses” (Synonyms of the New Testament, page 300).

Quoting Culverwell, he writes, “Epignosis and gnosis differ. Epignosis is the complete comprehension after the first knowledge (gnosin) of a matter. It is bringing me better acquainted with a thing I knew before; a more exact viewing of an object that I saw before afar off. That little portion of knowledge which we had here shall be much improved, our eye shall be raised to see the things more strongly and clearly” (Synonyms of the New Testament, page 300).

He goes on to say on the same page, “All Paul’s uses of epignosis justify and bear out this distinction. This same intensive use of epignosis is confirmed by similar passages in the New Testament and in the Septuagint. It also was recognized by the Greek fathers. Thus Chrysostom stated: ‘You knew (egnote), but it is necessary to know thoroughly (epignonai).”

J.B. Lightfoot commenting on epignosis, notes, “The compound epignosis is an advance upon gnosis, denoting a larger and more thorough knowledge...Hence also epignosis is used especially of the knowledge of God and of Christ, as being the perfection of knowledge” (St. Paul’s Epistles to the Colossians and Philemon, page 138).

Vine's Expository Dictionary of Biblical Words, “epignosis, akin to A, No. 3, denotes "exact or full knowledge, discernment, recognition,"

The New Thayer’s Greek-English Lexicon (page 237):
1. Precise and correct knowledge
2. Knowledge of things ethical and divine
3. Of God, especially knowledge of His holy will and of the blessings which He has bestowed and constantly bestows on men through Christ
4. Of Christ, i.e., the true knowledge of Christ’s nature, dignity, benefits
5. Of God and Christ, i.e., to keep the knowledge of the one true God which has illumined the soul

Exegetical Dictionary of the New Testament, volume 2, page 25:
1. Knowledge as recognition of the will of God that is effective in the conduct of the one who knows God
2. Christian faith

Please quote the scriptures that you have mentioned contain the word epignosis and highlight the word that is translated within them from the Greek word epignosis.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Was Peter being disobedient in Acts of the Apostles 2:38?

No - Peter wasn't being "disobedient".
YOU are being ignorant.

Peter was telling the crowd about the Baptism of Christ. He was COMMANDED by Christ Himself to Baptize in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.
Peter told them to repent and be baptized in the name of Christ for the remission of their sins.

"In the name of Christ" is the same as "The Baptism of Christ".

See John 7:37-39, John 4:13-14, and John 6:35.

And there you go again taking things OUT OF CONTEXT.
The CONTEXT of the instructions in The Didache are about the different types of H2O:
"And concerning baptism, baptize this way: Having first said all these things, baptize into the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, Matthew 28:19 in living water. But if you have not living water, baptize into other water; and if you can not in cold, in warm. But if you have not either, pour out water thrice upon the head into the name of Father and Son and Holy Spirit. But before the baptism let the baptizer fast, and the baptized, and whatever others can; but you shall order the baptized to fast one or two days before. (The Didache - AD, 50)

"Living Water" does NOT refer to the Holy Spirit here - PERIOD.

Please quote the scriptures that you have mentioned contain the word epignosis and highlight the word that is translated within them from the Greek word epignosis.

Here we go AGAIN . . .

Hebrews 10:26-27
“If we sin deliberately AFTER receiving KNOWLEDGE of the truth, there no longer remains sacrifice for sins but a fearful prospect of judgment and a flaming fire that is going to consume the adversaries.”
This is a clear warning that falling away from God will result in the loss of our salvation. The Greek ford for “knowledge” used here is NOT the usual word (oida). This is talking about a full, experiential knowledge (epignosei). This verse is about CHRISTIANS who had an EPIGNOSIS of Christ and who can fall back into darkness and LOSE their salvation by their own doing.

2 Peter 2:20-22
For if they, having escaped the defilements of the world through the KNOWLEDGE of our Lord and savior Jesus Christ, again become entangled and overcome by them, their last condition is worse than their first.
For it would have been better for them not to have KNOWN the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment handed down to them.
Here, Peter illustrates that those who had a full, experiential knowledge (epignosei) of Christ – CHRISTIANS – who can fall back into darkness and LOSE their salvation by their own doing.

 

[justbyfaith]

And there you go again taking things OUT OF CONTEXT.
The CONTEXT of the instructions in The Didache are about the different types of H2O:
"And concerning baptism, baptize this way: Having first said all these things, baptize into the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, Matthew 28:19 in living water. But if you have not living water, baptize into other water; and if you can not in cold, in warm. But if you have not either, pour out water thrice upon the head into the name of Father and Son and Holy Spirit. But before the baptism let the baptizer fast, and the baptized, and whatever others can; but you shall order the baptized to fast one or two days before. (The Didache - AD, 50)

"Living Water" does NOT refer to the Holy Spirit here - PERIOD.

The Didache is not the word of God...so quoting John 7:37-39, John 4:13-14, and John 6:35 (all which are in the same topical context, and all of which speak of what living water really is...) outside of the context of the Didache is not taking scripture out of the context of other scripture.

Here we go AGAIN . . .

Hebrews 10:26-27
“If we sin deliberately AFTER receiving KNOWLEDGE of the truth, there no longer remains sacrifice for sins but a fearful prospect of judgment and a flaming fire that is going to consume the adversaries.”
This is a clear warning that falling away from God will result in the loss of our salvation. The Greek ford for “knowledge” used here is NOT the usual word (oida). This is talking about a full, experiential knowledge (epignosei). This verse is about CHRISTIANS who had an EPIGNOSIS of Christ and who can fall back into darkness and LOSE their salvation by their own doing.

2 Peter 2:20-22
For if they, having escaped the defilements of the world through the KNOWLEDGE of our Lord and savior Jesus Christ, again become entangled and overcome by them, their last condition is worse than their first.
For it would have been better for them not to have KNOWN the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment handed down to them.
Here, Peter illustrates that those who had a full, experiential knowledge (epignosei) of Christ – CHRISTIANS – who can fall back into darkness and LOSE their salvation by their own doing.

There were originally a bunch more verses that you, referencing, said spoke of epignosis...what happened to them?

I may address the two passages that you have actually quoted a little bit later...

 

[justbyfaith]

Hebrews 10:26-27
“If we sin deliberately AFTER receiving KNOWLEDGE of the truth, there no longer remains sacrifice for sins but a fearful prospect of judgment and a flaming fire that is going to consume the adversaries.”

2 Peter 2:20-22
For if they, having escaped the defilements of the world through the KNOWLEDGE of our Lord and savior Jesus Christ, again become entangled and overcome by them, their last condition is worse than their first.
For it would have been better for them not to have KNOWN the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment handed down to them.

Strong's #1921. epiginosko: ep-ig-in-oce'-ko, from 1909 ad 1097, to know upon some mark. i.e. recognize, by impl. to become fully acquainted with. to acknowledge.---(ac-, have, take) know (-ledge, well) perceive.

Mere mental assent is not excluded from these definitions.

 

[BreadOfLife]

The Didache is not the word of God...so quoting John 7:37-39, John 4:13-14, and John 6:35 (all which are in the same topical context, and all of which speak of what living water really is...) outside of the context of the Didache is not taking scripture out of the context of other scripture.

Nice try - but we weren't talking about Scripture. I was quoting the instructions on HOW to baptize from The Didache - NOT the Bible. The Bible doesn't give explicit instruction on how to baptize.

In the context of the instructions in The Didache - "Living water" simply means running water - like a river or stream. It has NOTHING to do with the Holy Spirit.

There were originally a bunch more verses that you, referencing, said spoke of epignosis...what happened to them?

I may address the two passages that you have actually quoted a little bit later...

I made it easy on you.
Just address these TWO passages so we can move on.

"Epignosis" in these two passages illustrates a full, experiential and relational knowledge - and NOT simply a "mental assent" or an intellectual knowledge. The Greek fords for that would be "gnosis" or "oida".

Now - I have given you PLENTY of Protestant scholarship on the definition of Epignosis - from commentaries to dictionaries to encyclopedias. NONE of them define it as YOU do. ALL of them define it as a much DEEPER experiential knowledge of Christ. Here is yet another example of PROTESTANT scholarship on the mater:
"It occurs first in I : 2, where Peter prays that grace and peace be multiplied to his readers in the "knowledge" of God; then in 1: 3, where Christ has freely granted all the things necessary for spiritual life and piety through the "knowledge" of Him who called us; next in 1 : 8, where we are taught how to avoid being barren or unfruitful in respect to the "knowledge" of Christ; and finally in 2: 20, where reference is made to those who escaped the defilements of the world by means of the "knowledge" of Christ. All four of these have God or Christ for the object of this knowledge, and all seem-at least at first sight-to be looking back to the conversion experience." (The Evangelical Quartely, pg. 86, 1975)

 

[BreadOfLife]

Strong's #1921. epiginosko: ep-ig-in-oce'-ko, from 1909 ad 1097, to know upon some mark. i.e. recognize, by impl. to become fully acquainted with. to acknowledge.---(ac-, have, take) know (-ledge, well) perceive.

Mere mental assent is not excluded from these definitions.

Uh huh - and what do you say to all of the PROTESTANT scholarship I have presented on the matter?? J.B. Lightfoot, one of the most respected Protestant theologians of the last 200 years defines Epignosis in these passages as FAR more than just a "mental assent" - but a FULL and EXPERIENTIAL relationship.

Are YOU saying that J.B. Lightfoot is wrong - but YOU are right??

Exegetical Dictionary of the New Testament, volume 2, page 25:
Defines "Epignosis" as:
2. Christian faith

The New Thayer’s Greek-English Lexicon (page 237):
Defines "Epignosis" as:
5. Of God and Christ, i.e., to keep the knowledge of the one true God which has illumined the soul

Vine's Expository Dictionary of Biblical Words:
Defines "Epignosis" as:
"exact or full knowledge, discernment, recognition,"

 

[justbyfaith]

Strong's #1921. epiginosko: ep-ig-in-oce'-ko, from 1909 ad 1097, to know upon some mark. i.e. recognize, by impl. to become fully acquainted with. to acknowledge.---(ac-, have, take) know (-ledge, well) perceive.

Mere mental assent is not excluded from these definitions.

@BreadOfLife,

Above is the definition for the Greek word given in the Strong's Concordance. I do not consider dictionary type definitions like this one to be along the lines of what you would call "the teachings of men"...but I do not necessarily go by what people may say about a certain thing that they may teach, if it contradicts the Bible. And your teaching on epignosis contradicts the Bible.

Think with me: We know that in certain verses of scripture, given as promises to the saints, we are promised that we shall not come into condemnation (John 5:24 (kjv)), we shall never perish (John 10:28 (kjv)), that the Lord will never leave us nor forsake us (Hebrews 13:5-6, Matthew 28:20); and that He has given us everlasting/eternal life (John 5:24 (kjv), John 6:47 (kjv), John 10:27-30 (kjv)).

If therefore, epignosis is the strongest type of faith that one can have, and those with epignosis can fall away, then the above scriptural principles have been compromised and the word of God is null and void. Because the only way that these things can be reconciled is to either say that if a person falls away, they retain their salvation (for it is written of them that they shall never perish and that they shall not come into condemnation); or else what I have presented as scriptural truth, that it is a mental assent to the doctrinal tenets of scripture that some people have; and that it is possible for them to fall away: but that it is not possible for those to fall away who have a heart faith (spoken of in Romans 10:10) that is unto righteousness and the enduring to the end (Hebrews 3:6, Hebrews 3:14). Therefore these promises of eternal security apply to a specific people type, those designated as good soil; or, the elect. For it is written of certain people that they were foreknown, predestinated, called, justified, and then glorified. As a matter of fact, He has glorified as many as He has justified (Romans 8:30); but for some of us who have been justified, we are not yet glorified. However it is spoken of in the past tense; the Holy Spirit's way of telling us how certain it is that we who have been justified shall obtain glorified bodies.

The warnings of scripture are given to the elect in order that the Holy Spirit may question to them whether they are truly the elect on any occasion where they may begin to be in danger of not continuing in His goodness.

However the scriptures on eternal security are truly a helmet in the midst of spiritual battle for those of us who know that we are the elect, and I would not do without them.

In the context of the instructions in The Didache - "Living water" simply means running water - like a river or stream. It has NOTHING to do with the Holy Spirit.

So then, what you are saying, is that the Didache is not to be interpreted by the Bible or holy scripture.

For the holy scripture clearly identifies living water as the Holy Spirit.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Above is the definition for the Greek word given in the Strong's Concordance. I do not consider dictionary type definitions like this one to be along the lines of what you would call "the teachings of men"...but I do not necessarily go by what people may say about a certain thing that they may teach, if it contradicts the Bible. And your teaching on epignosis contradicts the Bible.

Think with me: We know that in certain verses of scripture, given as promises to the saints, we are promised that we shall not come into condemnation (John 5:24 (kjv)), we shall never perish (John 10:28 (kjv)), that the Lord will never leave us nor forsake us (Hebrews 13:5-6, Matthew 28:20); and that He has given us everlasting/eternal life (John 5:24 (kjv), John 6:47 (kjv), John 10:27-30 (kjv)).

If therefore, epignosis is the strongest type of faith that one can have, and those with epignosis can fall away, then the above scriptural principles have been compromised and the word of God is null and void. Because the only way that these things can be reconciled is to either say that if a person falls away, they retain their salvation (for it is written of them that they shall never perish and that they shall not come into condemnation); or else what I have presented as scriptural truth, that it is a mental assent to the doctrinal tenets of scripture that some people have; and that it is possible for them to fall away: but that it is not possible for those to fall away who have a heart faith (spoken of in Romans 10:10) that is unto righteousness and the enduring to the end (Hebrews 3:6, Hebrews 3:14). Therefore these promises of eternal security apply to a specific people type, those designated as good soil; or, the elect. For it is written of certain people that they were foreknown, predestinated, called, justified, and then glorified. As a matter of fact, He has glorified as many as He has justified (Romans 8:30); but for some of us who have been justified, we are not yet glorified. However it is spoken of in the past tense; the Holy Spirit's way of telling us how certain it is that we who have been justified shall obtain glorified bodies.

The warnings of scripture are given to the elect in order that the Holy Spirit may question to them whether they are truly the elect on any occasion where they may begin to be in danger of not continuing in His goodness.

However the scriptures on eternal security are truly a helmet in the midst of spiritual battle for those of us who know that we are the elect, and I would not do without them.

I hate to burst your bubble - but almost EVERY verse you cherry-picked is CONDITIONAL on whether the person endures in faith.

The only one that isn't is John 10:28 - which simply says that nobody can snatch you out of God's hand - which is true. Only YOU can choose to leave Him. Nobody will be held guilty on Judgment Day pf snatching a person away from God. ONLY the one who walked away will be guilty of that.

Besides - you are STILL at odds with some of the greatest Protestant scholars in history on the use of "Epignosis" in these verses. BUT - to your credit - you're just being a good Protestant by disagreeing and splintering away from the consensus . . .

So then, what you are saying, is that the Didache is not to be interpreted by the Bible or holy scripture.

For the holy scripture clearly identifies living water as the Holy Spirit.

NO - I'm telling YOU to use your head.

I gave you the passage from The Didache on Baptism - and it is CLEARLY talking about the different types of WATER .T

"And concerning baptism, baptize this way: Having first said all these things, baptize into the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, in living water. But if you have not living water, baptize into other water; and if you can not in cold, in warm. But if you have not either, pour out water thrice upon the head into the name of Father and Son and Holy Spirit. But before the baptism let the baptizer fast, and the baptized, and whatever others can; but you shall order the baptized to fast one or two days before. (The Didache - AD, 50)

The Holy Spirit is mentioned SEPARATELY from the phrase "living water", which simply means "RUNNING water".
The first THREE examples are:
1. Living Water
2. Other Water
3. Cold or Warm Water

These examples are talking about FULL IMMERSION.
Finally - the fourth choice is POURING over the head.

the Holy Spirit is ALWAYS present at Baptism and is NOT being referred to as "Water" in these instances - but as "The Holy Spirit".

"Living Water" doesn't ALWAYS refer to the Spirit in Scripture.
Sometimes - it simply means H2O . . .

Zech. 14:8
On that day living water will flow out from Jerusalem, half of it east to the Dead Sea and half of it west to the Mediterranean Sea, in summer and in winter.

 

[justbyfaith]

The only one that isn't is John 10:28 - which simply says that nobody can snatch you out of God's hand - which is true. Only YOU can choose to leave Him.

The people spoken of in the verses shall never perish...and therefore if they choose to leave Him, they shall not perish...which produces the false doctrine that a man can fall away and still be saved.

I prefer to stick to the faithful doctrine that if someone falls away, their faith wasn't a genuine heart faith...and the definition for epignosis in Greek allows for that.

 

[justbyfaith]

btw, Merry Christmas!

 

[farouk]

Not everyone...but His elect, designated as good soil in scripture, have in their possession the promises of John 5:24 (kjv), John 6:47 (kjv), John 10:27-30 (kjv), Hebrews 13:5-6 (kjv), and Matthew 28:20 (kjv). Their future glorification is spoken of in the past tense (Romans 8:30)...it's already done!

The parable of the sower is indeed a good reference point about receiving the word and bearing fruit in faith.

 

[BreadOfLife]

The people spoken of in the verses shall never perish...and therefore if they choose to leave Him, they shall not perish...which produces the false doctrine that a man can fall away and still be saved.

Right.
They will NEVER perish - as long as they believe and follow Him.

Once they walk away from Him - they LOSE their secure position.
This is precisely what Peter WARNS against:
2 Peter 3:17
Therefore, dear friends, since you already know this, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of lawless men and fall from your secure position.

Couldn't be ANY clearer.

I prefer to stick to the faithful doctrine that if someone falls away, their faith wasn't a genuine heart faith...and the definition for epignosis in Greek allows for that.

No, the definition of Epignosis DOESN'T allow for that - and NONE of your Protestant scholars agree with what YOU just said. R*E*A*D what I posted.

They ALL agree that Epignosis describes a full, experiential and relational knowledge - NOT just a mental or intellectual assent. They agree that ONLY a truly born again person has an EPIGNOSIS of Christ.

 

[justbyfaith]

Right.
They will NEVER perish - as long as they believe and follow Him.

I am in agreement...however, I believe that the elect are those who are sealed by the Holy Spirit...and that He is the earnest for them, even a deposit guaranteeing their inheritance. The promised Holy Spirit is an influence that will keep the true believer from falling away...they will believe and follow Him to the end because of His influence in their lives.

Once they walk away from Him - they LOSE their secure position.
This is precisely what Peter WARNS against:
2 Peter 3:17
Therefore, dear friends, since you already know this, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of lawless men and fall from your secure position.

Couldn't be ANY clearer.

Just so you understand that their position is secure.

Therefore this is a hypothetical warning, that if you allow yourself to be carried away by the error of lawless men, you would fall from your secure position...however, if your position is truly secure, you cannot fall away unless you fail to heed the warning...thus my original hypothesis holds merit even in this...that a man shall not depart from the LORD because of a for ever fear that the LORD places within him (Jeremiah 32:38-40 (kjv)). No one can snatch him out of the Lord's hand (John 10:27-30)...and he also will not leave the fold of his own volition because of this for ever fear that the LORD has placed inside of him (again, Jeremiah 32:38-40 (kjv)).

So the question that needs to be asked is, Do you have this for ever fear dwelling in your heart? If you don't, then it is very possible (and even probable) that you will walk away from the LORD and thus forfeit your salvation...However, if the fear of the LORD is in you, is should be clear that your position in Christ is indeed secure, as the scripture above indicates.

How secure is it?

Very secure...secure enough that if you want to stay a Christian, you do not have to fear losing your salvation through some happenstance that might be out of your control...

As long as you want to stay in the fold, nothing can take you out of it. If you don't want to stay in the fold, then I would determine that you are of the shallow faith type spoken of in Luke 8:13. And you are certainly free to leave the fold if you so desire...this freedom to choose to turn away from God is even given to those who have a sure mental understanding of what it means to be a Christian.

If you have a heart faith (Romans 10:10) and are bearing forth fruit with patience, then you do not fall under the category of a Luke 8:13 Christian. Because you are a Luke 8:15 Christian.

 

[justbyfaith]

Strong's #1921. epiginosko: ep-ig-in-oce'-ko, from 1909 ad 1097, to know upon some mark. i.e. recognize, by impl. to become fully acquainted with. to acknowledge.---(ac-, have, take) know (-ledge, well) perceive.

Mere mental assent is not excluded from these definitions.

 

[epostle]

I am in agreement...however, I believe that the elect are those who are sealed by the Holy Spirit...and that He is the earnest for them, even a deposit guaranteeing their inheritance. The promised Holy Spirit is an influence that will keep the true believer from falling away...they will believe and follow Him to the end because of His influence in their lives.
Just so you understand that their position is secure.
Therefore this is a hypothetical warning, that if you allow yourself to be carried away by the error of lawless men, you would fall from your secure position...however, if your position is truly secure, you cannot fall away unless you fail to heed the warning...thus my original hypothesis holds merit even in this...that a man shall not depart from the LORD because of a for ever fear that the LORD places within him (Jeremiah 32:38-40 (kjv)). No one can snatch him out of the Lord's hand (John 10:27-30)...and he also will not leave the fold of his own volition because of this for ever fear that the LORD has placed inside of him (again, Jeremiah 32:38-40 (kjv)).
So the question that needs to be asked is, Do you have this for ever fear dwelling in your heart? If you don't, then it is very possible (and even probable) that you will walk away from the LORD and thus forfeit your salvation...However, if the fear of the LORD is in you, is should be clear that your position in Christ is indeed secure, as the scripture above indicates.

No, we accept Paul's exhortation to "work out your salvation in fear and trembling". Your assurance or guarantee of salvation is a tradition of men, invented by John Calvin in the 16th century. It's not in the Bible and was never taught by the Church. Your assumption that because "guaranteed salvation" is not considered biblical, you fall into the typical Protestant false dichotomy trap: "if "A" is true, then "B" must be false. Calvin was notorious for his false dichotomies, and Matt Slick is a master of it.

How secure is it?

Very secure...secure enough that if you want to stay a Christian, you do not have to fear losing your salvation through some happenstance that might be out of your control...

No one loses their salvation through some out of control happenstance. Your non sequitur is absurd.

As long as you want to stay in the fold, nothing can take you out of it. If you don't want to stay in the fold, then I would determine that you are of the shallow faith type spoken of in Luke 8:13. And you are certainly free to leave the fold if you so desire...this freedom to choose to turn away from God is even given to those who have a sure mental understanding of what it means to be a Christian.

Yes, this is what we are trying to tell you. We don't know who this happens to, or to how many, but we know IT IS POSSIBLE. Catholics can be assured of their salvation if they persevere to the end, but it is not infallible assurance. Your infallible assurance is not in the Bible. Further, we are all assured of our salvation AFTER DEATH, not before.

If you have a heart faith (Romans 10:10) and are bearing forth fruit with patience, then you do not fall under the category of a Luke 8:13 Christian. Because you are a Luke 8:15 Christian.

A Luke 8:13 Christian looks exactly the same as a Romans 10:10 Christian. The Catholic knows what he stands to lose, you don't know if it is yours to begin with, because in your system, a Luke 8:13 Christian can't be assured of very much in the first place, and you have no idea who they are.

There are two types of “predestination,” to grace and to glory. In Ephesians 1:5, Paul is teaching about predestination to grace, which means becoming a Christian.

1 Pet. 1:1-2 – Paul teaches about being destined by God for obedience to Christ. This is another example of predestination to grace. But there is also predestination to glory.

Rom. 8:29-30 – Paul also writes that we are predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son. Now Paul is writing about predestination to glory, which means not only becoming a faithful Christian during our lives, but persevering to the end by conforming our will to Christ’s will.

1 Cor. 15:49 – Paul writes that we are conformed in His image at the resurrection, when we shall bear the image of the man of heaven. These are the people who were predestined to glory.at the resurrection

Rev. 3:5 – Jesus warns that He can blot out the names that are in the book of life. This refers to those currently, not ultimately, justified (those who are predestined to grace, but not to glory).

Eph. 1:5; 1 Peter 1:2; Rom. 8:29-30; 1 Cor. 15:49 – therefore, predestination is either to grace (which we could lose) or to glory (which we cannot lose). As alluded to above, some non-Catholics confuse the definition of “predestination” (which means God knows what we will do before we do it) and “predetermination” (the erroneous belief that God determines what we will do). But God does not author evil. We choose evil by our own freewill.
Followers of Calvin's man made OSAS tradition erroneously use the two types of predestination interchangeably. [/quote][/QUOTE]