Limited Atonement VS Universal Atonement

[BreadOfLife]

They retain the word and endure in the faith because they are good soil, not the other way around.

NOBODY is "good" but God (Mark 10:18).
They are good soil because they endured by cooperating with the grace of GOD.

 

[justbyfaith]

NOBODY is "good" but God (Mark 10:18).
They are good soil because they endured by cooperating with the grace of GOD.

Also in Luke 18:19...the same author wrote the book of Acts, wherein it is written that Barnabas was a good man, full of the Holy Ghost and faith: so much people were added to the Lord (Acts of the Apostles 11:24). Also, the fruit of the Spirit is among other things goodness (Galatians 5:22-23). And Paul said in Romans 15:14 that he was persuaded that they were filled with all goodness and able to admonish one another.

The apparent contradiction is reconciled in the understanding that Jesus said that no one is good but God before the Cross; before His blood was shed (see 1 John 1:7) and before the Holy Spirit was given (see 2 Corinthians 5:17).

Luke 8:15 is clear that those who are good soil have honest and good hearts.

And all of this is basically beside the point, except to give you a better education on this issue.

The point that I would make is that the people who endure to the end, who retain the word, do so because they are the good soil, and not the other way around...and you have not refuted this.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Also in Luke 18:19...the same author wrote the book of Acts, wherein it is written that Barnabas was a good man, full of the Holy Ghost and faith: so much people were added to the Lord (Acts of the Apostles 11:24). Also, the fruit of the Spirit is among other things goodness (Galatians 5:22-23). And Paul said in Romans 15:14 that he was persuaded that they were filled with all goodness and able to admonish one another.

The apparent contradiction is reconciled in the understanding that Jesus said that no one is good but God before the Cross; before His blood was shed (see 1 John 1:7) and before the Holy Spirit was given (see 2 Corinthians 5:17).

Luke 8:15 is clear that those who are good soil have honest and good hearts.

And all of this is basically beside the point, except to give you a better education on this issue.

The point that I would make is that the people who endure to the end, who retain the word, do so because they are the good soil, and not the other way around...and you have not refuted this.

It is GOD’S goodness that is a fruit of the Holy Spirit – NOT our own. They are FILLED WITH goodness – they don’t produce it. Jesus, who is GOD,said that NOBODY is good but God (Mark 10:18).
You DON’T know this??

You are STILL rotten – as am I and everybody else – and were in constant need of God’s mercy and grace. If WE were truly good – we would never sin – but Scripture tells us that as Christians, we STILL struggle with sin (Rom. 7:14-25, 1 Tim. 1:15, Gal. 2:11-14, 1 John 1:8).

Finally – the soil is ONLY good because of:
a. God’s grace
b. The willingness to cooperate with that grace.

 

[justbyfaith]

No sense in arguing anymore. I would just tell you to keep reading your Bible...and to seek the entire sanctification spoken of in 1 Thessalonians 5:23-24 (kjv), Hebrews 10:14, 1 John 3:9 (kjv), Jude 1:24 (kjv), and 2 Peter 1:10 (kjv)...according to Jeremiah 29:13.

 

[Josiah]

I used to believe Christ's atonement was for everyone. But didn't save anyone unless they met the conditions that triggered it in their behalf. So, in my case the condition was faith. So I trusted in my faith to trigger the atonement and make it work for me. I also believed if I stopped believing, I would perish.

Then I stumbled on Limited Atonement in taught in scripture. And everything changed. I realized that my faith was a result of Jesus paying for my sins on the cross. And had he not, I would not be able to believe. So I rejoiced seeing my faith as a gift God only gives to those for whom Christ died.

I stopped trying to lift myself over the fence by grabbing my ankles by conjuring up faith, and delighted knowing I could not doubt even if I somehow wanted to.

But I know, Jesus paid for the sins of all who want salvation through him, and persevere in it, but he didn't die for the many who do not want salvation by him. But love their sin more than God.

The two positions are this:

Calvinism: Christ died ONLY for a few
Orthodox Christianity: Christ died for all.

It's not more complicated. Traditional Christianity is NOT saying that thus all are saved (universalism came out of hyper-Calvinism) because there is another factor: Faith. But hyper-Calvinism is saying that for most, there is nothing for faith to grasp since Jesus isn't for them, Christ never died for THEM.


Of course, there is not a single verse that says Christ died ONLY, EXCLUSIVELY, SOLELY, JUST for the LIMITED few. There are verses that speak of Christ dying for the elect, but it doesn't say "ONLY" for the elect, and that's the issue. If I posted that Donald Trump is a US citizen, that would not mean that ergo no one else is.

There are MANY verses that speak of Christ dying for all. Among them (all brought up here) are:

1 John 2:2

Isaiah 53:6

Luke 19:10

2 Corinthians 5:14-15

Hebrews 2:9

John 1:29

1 John 4:14

John 4:42

John 3:14-16 (see with Numbers 21 where the staff is for ALL who look upon it)

and so many, many more...


Now EVERYONE agrees that this death benefits only those who have the divine gift of faith; it is faith that apprehends/trust/relies/embraces/applies the work of Christ to the individual. But that's a whole other issue. The issue here is this: For most people, is there anything for that faith to apprehend? Is the issue NOT the object of faith (Christ) but rather whether Christ has anything to offer them, anything for them?

IMO, the hyper-Calvinists invention is certainly unbiblical. It is nothing more than a "logical extension" of some other aspects of TULIP that are equally unfounded. It simply has NOTHING in Scripture or Tradition to support it. And worse.... it creates a terror since the issue is no longer whether faith is directed to Christ but whether Christ has anything for an individual - and since there is no short list of those for whom Christ died, there's no way to know if Christ died for any individual (including the one we see in the mirror). The glory of the orthodox, traditional view is that Christ died for all - and therefore for YOU (no if, ands or buts.... no doubting... no terror), the issue then is whether one has faith in that and thus embraces and applies that. If one does, there is justification.

It seems to ME that nearly all Calvinists LONG AGO repudiated the "L" of TULIP and have simply changed it to the biblical, orthodox view we find in the rest of Christianity; virtually all Calvinists are not "Five Point Calvinists" (likely not 4 or 3 either, lol) or have changed the "L" so that it has to do with the presence or absence of FAITH, not CHRIST and the Cross.


I hope that helps.


- Josiah


I hope that helps.

 

[Josiah]

Of course, there is not a single verse that says Christ died ONLY, EXCLUSIVELY, SOLELY, JUST for the LIMITED few. There are verses that speak of Christ dying for the elect, but it doesn't say "ONLY" for the elect, and that's the issue. If I posted that Donald Trump is a US citizen, that would not mean that ergo no one else is.

There are MANY verses that speak of Christ dying for all. Among them (all brought up here) are:

1 John 2:2

Isaiah 53:6

Luke 19:10

2 Corinthians 5:14-15

Hebrews 2:9

John 1:29

1 John 4:14

John 4:42

John 3:14-16 (see with Numbers 21 where the staff is for ALL who look upon it)

and so many, many more...


Now EVERYONE agrees that this death benefits only those who have the divine gift of faith; it is faith that apprehends/trust/relies/embraces/applies the work of Christ to the individual. But that's a whole other issue. The issue here is this: For most people, is there anything for that faith to apprehend? Is the issue NOT the object of faith (Christ) but rather whether Christ has anything to offer them, anything for them?

IMO, the hyper-Calvinists invention is certainly unbiblical. It is nothing more than a "logical extension" of some other aspects of TULIP that are equally unfounded. It simply has NOTHING in Scripture or Tradition to support it. And worse.... it creates a terror since the issue is no longer whether faith is directed to Christ but whether Christ has anything for an individual - and since there is no short list of those for whom Christ died, there's no way to know if Christ died for any individual (including the one we see in the mirror). The glory of the orthodox, traditional view is that Christ died for all - and therefore for YOU (no if, ands or buts.... no doubting... no terror), the issue then is whether one has faith in that and thus embraces and applies that. If one does, there is justification.

It seems to ME that nearly all Calvinists LONG AGO repudiated the "L" of TULIP and have simply changed it to the biblical, orthodox view we find in the rest of Christianity; virtually all Calvinists are not "Five Point Calvinists" (likely not 4 or 3 either, lol) or have changed the "L" so that it has to do with the presence or absence of FAITH, not CHRIST and the Cross.


I hope that helps.


- Josiah


I hope that helps.

One more thing:

Arminianists and hyper-Calvinists both illogically claim there are only two possiblities: One or the other.

Both use the highly illogical argument that if they can prove the other WRONG, ergo they MUST be right because only those two options exist.

It's a bit like saying if a Mustang automobile is not white ergo it MUST be black. Um.... maybe it's red, lol

In reality, BOTH (in their original radical forms anyway - many have watered them down to near nothing) are constructs developed by a tiny, few radical members of Calvinism and Arminianism. Either of these existed before the late 16th Century and most Christians reject both of them today. They are very tight, interconnect, "logical" constructs entirely void of support from Scripture, Tradition or much of anything else; just if "A" is true (and it's not necessarily!) then "B" seems "logical' and thus "C" seems logical.... etc. Never stopping to ask is it true. Each point totally depends on another in the formula (thus each constantly plays the "shell game")

POINT: Don't let either leer you with the argument, "If I show the other is wrong, ERGO the only possibility is that I'm right." That's illogical and silly. All they are both doing is showing the other wrong!



.

 

[justbyfaith]

Irresistible Grace (inherent in 1 Corinthians 13:8a and Revelation 19:6 (kjv)) demands that there is either Limited Atonement or Universalism..

I reject Universalism; therefore Limited Atonement is my belief on the matter.

 

[Dave L]

The two positions are this:

Calvinism: Christ died ONLY for a few
Orthodox Christianity: Christ died for all.

It's not more complicated. Traditional Christianity is NOT saying that thus all are saved (universalism came out of hyper-Calvinism) because there is another factor: Faith. But hyper-Calvinism is saying that for most, there is nothing for faith to grasp since Jesus isn't for them, Christ never died for THEM.


Of course, there is not a single verse that says Christ died ONLY, EXCLUSIVELY, SOLELY, JUST for the LIMITED few. There are verses that speak of Christ dying for the elect, but it doesn't say "ONLY" for the elect, and that's the issue. If I posted that Donald Trump is a US citizen, that would not mean that ergo no one else is.

There are MANY verses that speak of Christ dying for all. Among them (all brought up here) are:

1 John 2:2

Isaiah 53:6

Luke 19:10

2 Corinthians 5:14-15

Hebrews 2:9

John 1:29

1 John 4:14

John 4:42

John 3:14-16 (see with Numbers 21 where the staff is for ALL who look upon it)

and so many, many more...


Now EVERYONE agrees that this death benefits only those who have the divine gift of faith; it is faith that apprehends/trust/relies/embraces/applies the work of Christ to the individual. But that's a whole other issue. The issue here is this: For most people, is there anything for that faith to apprehend? Is the issue NOT the object of faith (Christ) but rather whether Christ has anything to offer them, anything for them?

IMO, the hyper-Calvinists invention is certainly unbiblical. It is nothing more than a "logical extension" of some other aspects of TULIP that are equally unfounded. It simply has NOTHING in Scripture or Tradition to support it. And worse.... it creates a terror since the issue is no longer whether faith is directed to Christ but whether Christ has anything for an individual - and since there is no short list of those for whom Christ died, there's no way to know if Christ died for any individual (including the one we see in the mirror). The glory of the orthodox, traditional view is that Christ died for all - and therefore for YOU (no if, ands or buts.... no doubting... no terror), the issue then is whether one has faith in that and thus embraces and applies that. If one does, there is justification.

It seems to ME that nearly all Calvinists LONG AGO repudiated the "L" of TULIP and have simply changed it to the biblical, orthodox view we find in the rest of Christianity; virtually all Calvinists are not "Five Point Calvinists" (likely not 4 or 3 either, lol) or have changed the "L" so that it has to do with the presence or absence of FAITH, not CHRIST and the Cross.


I hope that helps.


- Josiah


I hope that helps.

You do not understand the strength of sin. It blurs spiritual truth to the extent people could not discern the true Christ even when he stood in front of them. The pharisees demonstrated this. And Jesus demonstrated this when he asked Peter who he was. Peter said you are the Christ. And Jesus replied that flesh and blood had not revealed it to him, only the Father in heaven revealed it to him.

So people always accept a false Christ unless first born again. Faith is a fruit of the Holy Spirit whom God gives to those whom Christ died for.

“Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.” (Acts 20:28) (KJV 1900)

 

[Josiah]

You do not understand the strength of sin. It blurs spiritual truth to the extent people could not discern the true Christ even when he stood in front of them. The pharisees demonstrated this. And Jesus demonstrated this when he asked Peter who he was. Peter said you are the Christ. And Jesus replied that flesh and blood had not revealed it to him, only the Father in heaven revealed it to him.

So people always accept a false Christ unless first born again. Faith is a fruit of the Holy Spirit whom God gives to those whom Christ died for.

“Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.” (Acts 20:28) (KJV 1900)

I don't see how anything in your post substantiates that Jesus died ONLY, EXCLUSIVELY, SOLELY, JUST for the LIMITED few .... or that He died for all. Respectfully, I don't see how anything you posted has anything to do with the issue of whether Jesus died for all or just for a few.

 

[Enoch111]

I don't see how anything in your post substantiates that Jesus died ONLY, EXCLUSIVELY, SOLELY, JUST for the LIMITED few .... or that He died for all. Respectfully, I don't see how anything you posted has anything to do with the issue of whether Jesus died for all or just for a few.

Limited Atonement is a VERY SERIOUSLY FALSE doctrine. It actually undermines the true Gospel of grace. But don't expect those who believe this nonsense to give it up. It's a matter of pride to double down on false doctrines (as you will note all over the threads).

 

[Dave L]

I don't see how anything in your post substantiates that Jesus died ONLY, EXCLUSIVELY, SOLELY, JUST for the LIMITED few .... or that He died for all. Respectfully, I don't see how anything you posted has anything to do with the issue of whether Jesus died for all or just for a few.

Jesus told the Pharisees the reason they did not believe was because he didn't die for them. Please note:

“I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.” (John 10:11)

“But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.” (John 10:26)

 

[bbyrd009]

Irresistible Grace (inherent in 1 Corinthians 13:8a and Revelation 19:6 (kjv)) demands that there is either Limited Atonement or Universalism..

I reject Universalism; therefore Limited Atonement is my belief on the matter.

There is a third option, fwiw. That being that all are forgiven, but forgiveness does not save anyone anyway. But by "saved" I guess y'all mean Death More Abundantly anyway, right, or Immortality in heaven or whatever?

 

[bbyrd009]

If YHWH Himself were to tell you guys that there was absolutely no chance whatsoever that you might go to a place called Heaven after you have literally died, would you believe Him?

No one has ever gone up to heaven but He Who came down from it, the Son of Man

 

[farouk]

They retain the word and endure in the faith because they are good soil, not the other way around.

The parable of the sower is very searching...

 

[Enoch111]

If YHWH Himself were to tell you guys that there was absolutely no chance whatsoever that you might go to a place called Heaven after you have literally died, would you believe Him?

God could never say such a thing. On the other hand, Satan would be delighted to spout such nonsense.

 

[bbyrd009]

God could never say such a thing. On the other hand, Satan would be delighted to spout such nonsense.

ok, go with that then. Nice snip btw lol

 

[bbyrd009]

The parable of the sower is very searching...

Yes, until one has stopped searching anyway

 

[BreadOfLife]

No sense in arguing anymore. I would just tell you to keep reading your Bible...and to seek the entire sanctification spoken of in 1 Thessalonians 5:23-24 (kjv), Hebrews 10:14, 1 John 3:9 (kjv), Jude 1:24 (kjv), and 2 Peter 1:10 (kjv)...according to Jeremiah 29:13.

And I would advise YOU to stop quoting Scripture until you understand what it is saying .
.

 

[Josiah]

Jesus told the Pharisees the reason they did not believe was because he didn't die for them. Please note:

“I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.” (John 10:11)

“But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.” (John 10:26)

I agree.

NOTHING about "Jesus died ONLY, EXLUSIVELY, SOLELY, JUST for a LIMITED few."

True, God does not give faith to all but that doesn't mean ergo Jesus died for only a few.

But the "L" of TULIP is NOT "Limited Faith" or "Limited Effect" it's "Jesus died only, exclusively, solely, just for a limited few."

The reason some won't be in heaven is not because Jesus didn't die for them but because they didn't believe that; the problem is not a neglectful Jesus but the absence of faith.

If you are given a Starbucks gift card (PAID FOR!).... and you don't use it..... you don't benefit. But the reality that you didn't benefit doesn't mean you were given a fake, a fraud, a cruel joke, a stollen card never paid for.... it means you never apprehended/embraced/relied upon/trusted that card. Now, monergists like myself hold that such faith is the divine gift of God but that doesn't change the point: Jesus doesn't have to be neglectful for His work to not benefit all - because there is the issue of faith. Hyper-Calvinism simply eliminates faith from the issue of justification and thus must put the reason on the Cross.

But it creates not only an obvious, clear, verbatim contradiction of Scripture but a horror. It means that NO ONE can ever know (even guess) if the faith they have in Christ as their Savior means anything at all, because they can't know if Jesus is THEIR Savior (odds are, He's not). After all, for most, there is NOTHING for that faith to apprehend/trust - just a cruel joke, an empty void, like a Starbucks card with no value but no way to know that until we arrive at the pearly gates.

 

[Dave L]

I agree.

NOTHING about "Jesus died ONLY, EXLUSIVELY, SOLELY, JUST for a LIMITED few."

True, God does not give faith to all but that doesn't mean ergo Jesus died for only a few.

But the "L" of TULIP is NOT "Limited Faith" or "Limited Effect" it's "Jesus died only, exclusively, solely, just for a limited few."

The reason some won't be in heaven is not because Jesus didn't die for them but because they didn't believe that; the problem is not a neglectful Jesus but the absence of faith.

If you are given a Starbucks gift card (PAID FOR!).... and you don't use it..... you don't benefit. But the reality that you didn't benefit doesn't mean you were given a fake, a fraud, a cruel joke, a stollen card never paid for.... it means you never apprehended/embraced/relied upon/trusted that card. Now, monergists like myself hold that such faith is the divine gift of God but that doesn't change the point: Jesus doesn't have to be neglectful for His work to not benefit all - because there is the issue of faith. Hyper-Calvinism simply eliminates faith from the issue of justification and thus must put the reason on the Cross.

But it creates not only an obvious, clear, verbatim contradiction of Scripture but a horror. It means that NO ONE can ever know (even guess) if the faith they have in Christ as their Savior means anything at all, because they can't know if Jesus is THEIR Savior (odds are, He's not). After all, for most, there is NOTHING for that faith to apprehend/trust - just a cruel joke, an empty void, like a Starbucks card with no value but no way to know that until we arrive at the pearly gates.

The problem is, if Christ died for all and all are not saved, salvation is only for the self righteous and the gospel becomes a law they opt to keep. = Salvation by works.

Salvation by grace saves those who cannot save themselves.