Limited Atonement VS Universal Atonement

[BreadOfLife]

I am in agreement...however, I believe that the elect are those who are sealed by the Holy Spirit...and that He is the earnest for them, even a deposit guaranteeing their inheritance. The promised Holy Spirit is an influence that will keep the true believer from falling away...they will believe and follow Him to the end because of His influence in their lives.

That is a wonderful sentiment - but that is NOT what the Bible teaches, as I have shown.

The Bible teaches that we CAN fall away and lose it all - and WARNS us about this repeatedly
(Matt. 7:19-23, Matt. 10:22, Matt. 24:13, Matt. 25:31–46, John 15:1-6, Rom. 11:22, 1 Cor. 9:27, 1 Cor. 4:4, 1 Tim. 4:1, Heb. 3:6, Heb. 3:12-14, Heb 6:4-6, Heb. 10:26-27, 2 Pet.r 3:17, 1 John 2:24, 1 John 5:13, Rev. 3:5, Rev. 22:19)

Just so you understand that their position is secure.

Therefore this is a hypothetical warning, that if you allow yourself to be carried away by the error of lawless men, you would fall from your secure position...however, if your position is truly secure, you cannot fall away unless you fail to heed the warning...thus my original hypothesis holds merit even in this...that a man shall not depart from the LORD because of a for ever fear that the LORD places within him (Jeremiah 32:38-40 (kjv)). No one can snatch him out of the Lord's hand (John 10:27-30)...and he also will not leave the fold of his own volition because of this for ever fear that the LORD has placed inside of him (again, Jeremiah 32:38-40 (kjv)).

So the question that needs to be asked is, Do you have this for ever fear dwelling in your heart? If you don't, then it is very possible (and even probable) that you will walk away from the LORD and thus forfeit your salvation...However, if the fear of the LORD is in you, is should be clear that your position in Christ is indeed secure, as the scripture above indicates.

How secure is it?

Very secure...secure enough that if you want to stay a Christian, you do not have to fear losing your salvation through some happenstance that might be out of your control...

As long as you want to stay in the fold, nothing can take you out of it. If you don't want to stay in the fold, then I would determine that you are of the shallow faith type spoken of in Luke 8:13. And you are certainly free to leave the fold if you so desire...this freedom to choose to turn away from God is even given to those who have a sure mental understanding of what it means to be a Christian.

If you have a heart faith (Romans 10:10) and are bearing forth fruit with patience, then you do not fall under the category of a Luke 8:13 Christian. Because you are a Luke 8:15 Christian.

A warranty is secure as long as you cooperate with that warranty.
When you decide to abandon the terms of that warranty - WHY would you assume that it is still secure - when the contract WARNS you that it will be null and void??

The same is true for salvation.

We are given the chance to serve the Lord and cooperate with His saving grace unto our salvation.
When WE decide that we want to abandon that covenant with God - then WE throw away our security - NOT Him.

 

[justbyfaith]

Your infallible assurance is not in the Bible.

I find that it is.

because in your system, a Luke 8:13 Christian can't be assured of very much in the first place, and you have no idea who they are.

However, we can know who the Luke 8:15 Christians are; and can be assured that these are not Luke 8:13 Christians.

When WE decide that we want to abandon that covenant with God - then WE throw away our security - NOT Him.

I will point out again that the elect are preserved by a for ever fear of the LORD; so that they shall not depart from Him (i.e. abandon that covenant with God).

Jeremiah 32:38-40 (kjv), And they shall be my people, and I will be their God: And I will give them one heart, and one way, that they may fear me for ever, for the good of them, and of their children after them: And I will make an everlasting covenant with them, that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; but I will put my fear in their hearts, that they shall not depart from me.

A few things about this scripture.

1) it is about God's people.

2) He gives them one heart and one way, that they might fear Him for ever. This is referring to a cause and effect relationship between them having one heart and one way, and them fearing Him for ever.

3) It is an everlasting covenant, and God will not turn away from them because of it.

4) Connected to (2) God will put His fear in their hearts (which we previously discovered, is a for ever fear) so that they shall not depart from Him (i.e. abandon the faith, walk away from Him, etc.)

 

[justbyfaith]

Scriptures to ponder:

2 Peter 1:3-4

Hebrews 11:33

2 Corinthians 1:20

Romans 4:20-22.

 

[BreadOfLife]

I will point out again that the elect are preserved by a for ever fear of the LORD; so that they shall not depart from Him (i.e. abandon that covenant with God).

Jeremiah 32:38-40 (kjv), And they shall be my people, and I will be their God: And I will give them one heart, and one way, that they may fear me for ever, for the good of them, and of their children after them: And I will make an everlasting covenant with them, that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; but I will put my fear in their hearts, that they shall not depart from me.

A few things about this scripture.

1) it is about God's people.

2) He gives them one heart and one way, that they might fear Him for ever. This is referring to a cause and effect relationship between them having one heart and one way, and them fearing Him for ever.

3) It is an everlasting covenant, and God will not turn away from them because of it.

4) Connected to (2) God will put His fear in their hearts (which we previously discovered, is a for ever fear) so that they shall not depart from Him (i.e.abandon the faith, walk away from Him, etc.)

And, as I have REPEATEDLY shown you - God's inerrant Word states that we CAN fall away and be LOST. The following verses speak to BORN AGAIN, CONVERTED believers:

Hebrews 10:26-27
“If we sin deliberately AFTER receiving KNOWLEDGE of the truth, there no longer remains sacrifice for sins but a fearful prospect of judgment and a flaming fire that is going to consume the adversaries.”
This is a clear warning that falling away from God will result in the loss of our salvation. The Greek ford for “knowledge” used here is NOT the usual word (oida). This is talking about a full, experiential knowledge (epignosei). This verse is about CHRISTIANS who had an EPIGNOSIS of Christ and who can fall back into darkness and LOSE their salvation by their own doing.

2 Peter 2:20-22
For if they, having escaped the defilements of the world through the KNOWLEDGE of our Lord and savior Jesus Christ, again become entangled and overcome by them, their last condition is worse than their first.

For it would have been better for them not to have KNOWN the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment handed down to them.
Here, Peter illustrates that those who had a full, experiential knowledge (epignosei) of Christ – CHRISTIANS – who can fall back into darkness and LOSE their salvation by their own doing.

You CANNOT escape the reality of "EPIGNOSIS" in these verses.
EVERY Protestant scholar I quoted agrees that these 2 verses are speaking of BORN AGAIN believers.
As I showed you many times already - ONE Protestant source even goes so far as to define Epignosis as "CHRISTIAN FAITH".

Now, either ALL of those educated scholars over the last 200 years are correct about Epignosis - or they are WRONG and YOU, a poster on an obscure website with NO pedigree are correct.

NO CONTEST . . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

Scriptures to ponder:

2 Peter 1:3-4

Hebrews 11:33

2 Corinthians 1:20

Romans 4:20-22.

And a few for YOU to ponder . . .

Hebrews 10:26-27
“If we sin deliberately AFTER receiving KNOWLEDGE of the truth, there no longer remains sacrifice for sins but a fearful prospect of judgment and a flaming fire that is going to consume the adversaries.”
This is a clear warning that falling away from God will result in the loss of our salvation. The Greek ford for “knowledge” used here is NOT the usual word (oida). This is talking about a full, experiential knowledge (epignosei). This verse is about CHRISTIANS who had an EPIGNOSIS of Christ and who can fall back into darkness and LOSE their salvation by their own doing.

2 Peter 2:20-22
For if they, having escaped the defilements of the world through the KNOWLEDGE of our Lord and savior Jesus Christ, again become entangled and overcome by them, their last condition is worse than their first.
For it would have been better for them not to have KNOWN the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment handed down to them.
Here, Peter illustrates that those who had a full, experiential knowledge (epignosei) of Christ – CHRISTIANS – who can fall back into darkness and LOSE their salvation by their own doing.

Matt. 5:13
You are the salt of the earth. But if salt loses its taste, with what can it be seasoned? It is no longer good for anything but to be thrown out and trampled underfoot.
This one is self-explanatory - even to a blind, deaf and dumb person . . .

1 Cor. 9:27
"I pummel my body and subdue it, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified."
Paul is saying that he wrestles with his own fleshly desires so that he might not fall back into sin.

2 Peter 3:17
Therefore, dear friends, since you already know this, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of lawless men and fall from your secure position.
Peter is warning the FAITHFUL not to fall back into sin and lawlessness.

1 John 2:24
See that what you have heard from the beginning remains in you. IF it does, you also will REMAIN in the Son and in the Father.
This is an admonition to try to remain faithful.

Rev. 3:5
He who overcomes will, like them, be dressed in white. I will never blot out his name from the book of life, but will acknowledge his name before my Father and his angels.
God cannot "blot out" a name that was never there in the first place. He is talking about CHRISTIANS who are already saved and how they can LOSE their salvation.

Rev. 22:19
And if anyone takes words away from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.
How can God "take away" somebody’s share of heaven if they never had it to begin with? This is about CHRISTIANS who may or may NOT make it into Heaven.

Context, context - ALWAYS CONTEXT.

 

[Waiting on him]

And a few for YOU to ponder . . .

Hebrews 10:26-27
“If we sin deliberately AFTER receiving KNOWLEDGE of the truth, there no longer remains sacrifice for sins but a fearful prospect of judgment and a flaming fire that is going to consume the adversaries.”
This is a clear warning that falling away from God will result in the loss of our salvation. The Greek ford for “knowledge” used here is NOT the usual word (oida). This is talking about a full, experiential knowledge (epignosei). This verse is about CHRISTIANS who had an EPIGNOSIS of Christ and who can fall back into darkness and LOSE their salvation by their own doing.

2 Peter 2:20-22
For if they, having escaped the defilements of the world through the KNOWLEDGE of our Lord and savior Jesus Christ, again become entangled and overcome by them, their last condition is worse than their first.
For it would have been better for them not to have KNOWN the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment handed down to them.
Here, Peter illustrates that those who had a full, experiential knowledge (epignosei) of Christ – CHRISTIANS – who can fall back into darkness and LOSE their salvation by their own doing.

Matt. 5:13
You are the salt of the earth. But if salt loses its taste, with what can it be seasoned? It is no longer good for anything but to be thrown out and trampled underfoot.
This one is self-explanatory - even to a blind, deaf and dumb person . . .

1 Cor. 9:27
"I pummel my body and subdue it, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified."
Paul is saying that he wrestles with his own fleshly desires so that he might not fall back into sin.

2 Peter 3:17
Therefore, dear friends, since you already know this, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of lawless men and fall from your secure position.
Peter is warning the FAITHFUL not to fall back into sin and lawlessness.

1 John 2:24
See that what you have heard from the beginning remains in you. IF it does, you also will REMAIN in the Son and in the Father.
This is an admonition to try to remain faithful.

Rev. 3:5
He who overcomes will, like them, be dressed in white. I will never blot out his name from the book of life, but will acknowledge his name before my Father and his angels.
God cannot "blot out" a name that was never there in the first place. He is talking about CHRISTIANS who are already saved and how they can LOSE their salvation.

Rev. 22:19
And if anyone takes words away from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.
How can God "take away" somebody’s share of heaven if they never had it to begin with? This is about CHRISTIANS who may or may NOT make it into Heaven.

Context, context - ALWAYS CONTEXT.

John 1:12-13 KJV
[12] But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: [13] Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Tecarta Bible Premiumthis is clearly Gods choice,and he doesnt break his covenants, just because we do. To say salvation can be lost would imply we had something to do with it in the first place.

 

[BreadOfLife]

John 1:12-13 KJV
[12] But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: [13] Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Tecarta Bible Premiumthis is clearly Gods choice,and he doesnt break his covenants, just because we do. To say salvation can be lost would imply we had something to do with it in the first place.

And NOBODY is saying that HE breaks His Covenants. He is incapable of doing that.
WE aren't.

To imply that we ARE is the height of human arrogance . . .

 

[justbyfaith]

As I showed you many times already - ONE Protestant source even goes so far as to define Epignosis as "CHRISTIAN FAITH".

Mental assent to the tenets of the gospel does qualify as Christian faith.

And, as I have REPEATEDLY shown you - God's inerrant Word states that we CAN fall away and be LOST.

If you want to believe that, who am I to try and stop you? there is an open door in front of you, that leads to apostasy (you don't have to walk through it)...

As for me, I will believe the promises that have been given to me by the Lord, and will rest secure in my salvation.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Mental assent to the tenets of the gospel does qualify as Christian faith.

WRONG.

YOU, who claim that we are SAVED by faith alone are now saying that mere "mental assent" saves us??
James CLEARLY condemns this fallacy when he states that "even the DEMONS" have that kind of mental assent of the reality of God (James 2:19).

This verse proves that Mental assent is NOT faith.

If you want to believe that, who am I to try and stop you? there is an open door in front of you, that leads to apostasy (you don't have to walk through it)...

As for me, I will believe the promises that have been given to me by the Lord, and will rest secure in my salvation.

No - YOU will continue to cherry-pick Scripture until it says what YOU want it to say - instead of reading it in CONTEXT.

Dangerous hermeneutics . . .

 

[justbyfaith]

No - YOU will continue to cherry-pick Scripture until it says what YOU want it to say - instead of reading it in CONTEXT.

Dangerous hermeneutics . . .

Like I said, if you want to believe that you can fall away, more power to you...my faith tells me that I cannot...that I am secure in the palm of Jesus' hand...and that I shall not depart from Him because of the fear of Him (even of falling away) that He has placed within me.

WRONG.

YOU, who claim that we are SAVED by faith alone are now saying that mere "mental assent" saves us??
James CLEARLY condemns this fallacy when he states that "even the DEMONS" have that kind of mental assent of the reality of God (James 2:19).

This verse proves that Mental assent is NOT faith.

Is the person spoken of in Luke 8:13 saved? I consider that they have a mental assent, but not a heart faith that will produce real righteousness and enduring to the end.

Whosoever believes (with a heart faith) has everlasting life. Luke 8:13 is an exception to this; but I would say that it is an exception because of the type of faith that it is talking about. It is shallow. It is the dead faith that you just spoke of when you spoke of the faith of demons.

Living faith is saving faith. It is a heart faith that is unto righteousness.

What is spoken of in Luke 8:13 qualifies as Christian faith; but it does not qualify as saving faith. It is shallow and does not endure to the end and therefore is not the kind of living and saving faith that produces fruit with perseverance as we see in Luke 8:15.

What the demons have in the James passage is identified as faith; it is just not identified as living and saving faith. This is what I have been trying to say to you all along. Look at the James passage further; and you will see that a dead faith will not ultimately save anyone. And I identify a dead faith as mere mental assent...(demons know that everything in the Bible is true, but it never reaches their heart)...a belief with the mind but not the heart...the human being in question is ten inches away from salvation.

But the one who is truly saved can lay a hold of the promises found in such passages as John 5:24 (kjv), John 6:47 (kjv), John 10:27-30 (kjv), Hebrews 13:5-6 (kjv), and Matthew 28:20 (kjv) (which have not been taken out of context...the burden of proof is on you to show that the context of these passages somehow contradicts the meaning of the verses themselves). If you know that you know that you know that you are a child of God, then you can know that you know that you know that your salvation is secure and can't ever be taken away from you.

That is all I am saying.

So if someone is not truly born again and is citing OSAS doctrine to try and tell you that they can live like hell and they will not lose their salvation...I would protest to them that they are not saved to begin with. Because those who can lay hold of the promises on eternal security are only those who are being sanctified...those who are seeking to be conformed to the image of Christ and whose walk is in the direction of holiness, since they have been redeemed by the blood of the Lamb and have also been given the gift of the Holy Ghost...so that they have the power to walk according to the Spirit rather than the flesh and they also make that the normal practice of their lives.

If someone is truly born again they also bear the fruit of the Holy Spirit and therefore they are not going to live like hell. They are motivated towards holiness, not by a fear of losing their salvation if they fail to live up to God's standard of holiness; but rather because they love the Lord and want to please Him. It is a supernatural work of grace done in the person's heart.

If you do not want to please the Lord out of love, but rather feel that you need the threat of losing your salvation in order for you to keep hold of your Christian faith, then you should question whether that supernatural work of grace has been done in your heart.

Now of course the fear of the LORD is a factor in the heart of every true believer. But the motivation towards holiness has to do with a love for Jesus and a desire to please Him. The fear is a motivating factor that keeps us in the faith itself; because the only thing that can take away a person's salvation is if they cease to believe in Jesus Christ; and the only way that a person can cease to believe in Jesus Christ is if their belief did not enter into their heart but was only a thing of their mind.

 

[Waiting on him]

Now of course the fear of the LORD is a factor in the heart of every true believer. But the motivation towards holiness has to do with a love for Jesus and a desire to please Him. The fear is a motivating factor that keeps us in the faith itself; because the only thing that can take away a person's salvation is if they cease to believe in Jesus Christ; and the only way that a person can cease to believe in Jesus Christ is if their belief did not enter into their heart but was only a thing of their mind.

Proverbs 8:13 KJV
[13] The fear of the Lord is to hate evil: pride, and arrogancy, and the evil way, and the froward mouth, do I hate.

Tecarta Bible Premium

 

[BreadOfLife]

Like I said, if you want to believe that you can fall away, more power to you...my faith tells me that I cannot...that I am secure in the palm of Jesus' hand...and that I shall not depart from Him because of the fear of Him (even of falling away) that He has placed within me.

And, as I have shown you repeatedly - that's NOT what the Bible teaches.

The Bible teaches that even those who are BORN AGAIN, with an Epignosis of Christ can fall away and be LOST by their OWN doing
(Matt. 7:19-23, Matt. 10:22, Matt. 24:13, Matt. 25:31–46, John 15:1-6, Rom. 11:22, 1 Cor. 9:27, 1 Cor. 4:4, 1 Tim. 4:1, Heb. 3:6, Heb. 3:12-14, Heb 6:4-6, Heb. 10:26-27, 2 Pet.r 3:17, 1 John 2:24, 1 John 5:13, Rev. 3:5, Rev. 22:19).

Is the person spoken of in Luke 8:13 saved? I consider that they have a mental assent, but not a heart faith that will produce real righteousness and enduring to the end.

Whosoever believes (with a heart faith) has everlasting life. Luke 8:13 is an exception to this; but I would say that it is an exception because of the type of faith that it is talking about. It is shallow. It is the dead faith that you just spoke of when you spoke of the faith of demons.

Living faith is saving faith. It is a heart faith that is unto righteousness.

What is spoken of in Luke 8:13 qualifies as Christian faith; but it does not qualify as saving faith. It is shallow and does not endure to the end and therefore is not the kind of living and saving faith that produces fruit with perseverance as we see in Luke 8:15.

What the demons have in the James passage is identified as faith; it is just not identified as living and saving faith. This is what I have been trying to say to you all along. Look at the James passage further; and you will see that a dead faith will not ultimately save anyone. And I identify a dead faith as mere mental assent...(demons know that everything in the Bible is true, but it never reaches their heart)...a belief with the mind but not the heart...the human being in question is ten inches away from salvation.

But the one who is truly saved can lay a hold of the promises found in such passages as John 5:24 (kjv), John 6:47 (kjv), John 10:27-30 (kjv), Hebrews 13:5-6 (kjv), and Matthew 28:20 (kjv) (which have not been taken out of context...the burden of proof is on you to show that the context of these passages somehow contradicts the meaning of the verses themselves). If you know that you know that you know that you are a child of God, then you can know that you know that you know that your salvation is secure and can't ever be taken away from you.

That is all I am saying.

So if someone is not truly born again and is citing OSAS doctrine to try and tell you that they can live like hell and they will not lose their salvation...I would protest to them that they are not saved to begin with. Because those who can lay hold of the promises on eternal security are only those who are being sanctified...those who are seeking to be conformed to the image of Christ and whose walk is in the direction of holiness, since they have been redeemed by the blood of the Lamb and have also been given the gift of the Holy Ghost...so that they have the power to walk according to the Spirit rather than the flesh and they also make that the normal practice of their lives.

If someone is truly born again they also bear the fruit of the Holy Spirit and therefore they are not going to live like hell. They are motivated towards holiness, not by a fear of losing their salvation if they fail to live up to God's standard of holiness; but rather because they love the Lord and want to please Him. It is a supernatural work of grace done in the person's heart.

If you do not want to please the Lord out of love, but rather feel that you need the threat of losing your salvation in order for you to keep hold of your Christian faith, then you should question whether that supernatural work of grace has been done in your heart.

Now of course the fear of the LORD is a factor in the heart of every true believer. But the motivation towards holiness has to do with a love for Jesus and a desire to please Him. The fear is a motivating factor that keeps us in the faith itself; because the only thing that can take away a person's salvation is if they cease to believe in Jesus Christ; and the only way that a person can cease to believe in Jesus Christ is if their belief did not enter into their heart but was only a thing of their mind.

AGAIN - as I have REPEATEDLY shown you - the Bible teaches that salvation is a PROCESS - not a one-time, slam dunk event.

The ones in Luke 8:13 are PART of that process - but they fell away. HOWEVER - they experienced more than just a "mental assent" because it speaks of their initial "JOY". The demons in James 2:19 have a mental assent of God - but they don't have "JOY".

ALL of those in the Parable of the Sower were given the INITIAL GRACE to believe.

The Scriptures assure us that we as Christians are ALREADY SAVED (Rom. 5:1, 8:24, Eph. 2:5–8). This is Initial Salvation – God give us the initial grace to believe.

However, because Salvation is a LIFELONG process – it ALSO says that I am BEING SAVED (1 Cor. 1:8, 2 Cor. 2:15, 7:1, Phil. 2:12, Heb 12:14). This is Ongoing Sanctification – God is sanctifying us throughout our life as we cooperate with his grace.

Because of this, I have the hope that I WILL BE SAVED (Matt. 24:13, Rom. 5:9–10, 1 Cor. 3:12–15). This is Final Sanctification/Salvation – We die and go to heaven having endured to the end.

The Bible does NOT teach that we can "never lose" our salvation at ANY point in this process. On the contrary - it warns us to be on our guard so that we WON'T fall back into sin and lose it.

 

[justbyfaith]

And, as I have shown you repeatedly - that's NOT what the Bible teaches.

The Bible teaches that even those who are BORN AGAIN, with an Epignosis of Christ can fall away and be LOST by their OWN doing

The Bible actually teaches that those who are truly saved shall never perish and shall not come into condemnation. (John 5:24 (kjv), John 10:28 (kjv)).

AGAIN - as I have REPEATEDLY shown you - the Bible teaches that salvation is a PROCESS - not a one-time, slam dunk event.

The ones in Luke 8:13 are PART of that process - but they fell away.
ALL of those in the Parable of the Sower were given the INITIAL GRACE to believe.

According to John 6:47, all of those who believe on Christ have everlasting life. But apparently the person who believes, in Luke 8:13, doesn't have everlasting life. How do you reconcile this contradiction?

The Scriptures assure us that we as Christians are ALREADY SAVED (Rom. 5:1, 8:24, Eph. 2:5–8). This is Initial Salvation – God give us the initial grace to believe.

What are they saved from (?), if not from the penalty of sin, so that their destination is no longer hell? The fact that they are not going to hell means that they are not going to hell. It is no longer their destination. They have been given the gift of everlasting life (in heaven). Ephesians 2:8-9, Romans 6:23. This gift is without repentance from the throne of God (Romans 11:29 (kjv), some other versions say irrevocable). The person who hears Jesus' words and believes on Him who sent Him, has everlasting life, he has passed from death unto life; and he shall not come into condemnation (John 5:24 (kjv)). You can know that you have everlasting life (1 John 5:13 (kjv)). The nature of everlasting life is that it does not ever end: it lasts for ever. Jesus also promised that the everlasting life that He gives is abundant (John 10:10). So it is not everlasting life in hell that He is offering to you.

It is a gift and it is something that will remain in your spirit until the day of redemption if you are indeed sealed by the Holy Spirit. It cannot be added to or taken away from (Ecclesiastes 3:14).

 

[farouk]

The Bible actually teaches that those who are truly saved shall never perish and shall not come into condemnation. (John 5:24 (kjv), John 10:28 (kjv)).



According to John 6:47, all of those who believe on Christ have everlasting life. But apparently the person who believes in Luke 8:13 doesn't have everlasting life. How do you reconcile this contradiction?



What are they saved from (?), if not from the penalty of sin, so that their destination is no longer hell? The fact that they are not going to hell means that they are not going to hell. It is no longer their destination. They have been given the gift of everlasting life (in heaven). Ephesians 2:8-9, Romans 6:23. This gift is without repentance from the throne of God (Romans 11:29 (kjv), some other versions say irrevocable). The person who hears Jesus' words and believes on Him who sent Him, has everlasting life, he has passed from death unto life; and he shall not come into condemnation (John 5:24 (kjv)). You can know that you have everlasting life (1 John 5:13 (kjv)). The nature of everlasting life is that it does not ever end: it lasts for ever. Jesus also promised that the everlasting life that He gives is abundant (John 10:10). So it is not everlasting life in hell that He is offering to you.

It is a gift and it is something that will remain in your spirit until the day of redemption if you are indeed sealed by the Holy Spirit. It cannot be added to or taken away from (Ecclesiastes 3:14).

Romans 8.38-39 is another assuring passage.

 

[BreadOfLife]

The Bible actually teaches that those who are truly saved shall never perish and shall not come into condemnation. (John 5:24 (kjv), John 10:28 (kjv)).

Sure - as long as they REMAIN faithful (Matt. 7:19-23, Matt. 10:22, Matt. 24:13, Matt. 25:31–46, John 15:1-6, Rom. 11:22, 1 Cor. 9:27, 1 Cor. 4:4, 1 Tim. 4:1, Heb. 3:6, Heb. 3:12-14, Heb 6:4-6, Heb. 10:26-27, 2 Pet.r 3:17, 1 John 2:24, 1 John 5:13, Rev. 3:5, Rev. 22:19).

According to John 6:47, all of those who believe on Christ have everlasting life. But apparently the person who believes in Luke 8:13 doesn't have everlasting life. How do you reconcile this contradiction?

There is NO contradiction.

John 6:47 says there is salvation for the one who believes and Luke 8:13 says that some believe, then fall away. They are TWO sides of the SAME coin.

It's not rocket science . . .

What are they saved from (?), if not from the penalty of sin, so that their destination is no longer hell? The fact that they are not going to hell means that they are not going to hell. It is no longer their destination. They have been given the gift of everlasting life (in heaven). Ephesians 2:8-9, Romans 6:23. This gift is without repentance from the throne of God (Romans 11:29 (kjv), some other versions say irrevocable). The person who hears Jesus' words and believes on Him who sent Him, has everlasting life, he has passed from death to life; and he shall not come into condemnation (John 5:24 (kjv)). You can know that you have everlasting life (1 John 5:13 (kjv)). The nature of everlasting life is that it does not ever end: it lasts for ever. Jesus also promised that the everlasting life that He gives is abundant (John 10:10). So it is not everlasting life in hell that He is offering to you.

It is a gift and it is something that will remain in your spirit until the day of redemption if you are indeed sealed by the Holy Spirit. It cannot be added to or taken away from (Ecclesiastes 3:14).

There are literally MILLIONS of people each year whose lives are saved by first responders (firefighters, police, EMTs) or doctors. Out of those millions of people - there are MANY who eventually commit suicide.
Were they saved - or not??

The SAME is true for a person who is saved by what Christ did on the cross.
It is their FREE WILL choice to continue to follow Him - or to walk away at ANY point in their life.

 

[justbyfaith]

There is NO contradiction.

John 6:47 says there is salvation for the one who believes and Luke 8:13 says that some believe, then fall away. They are TWO sides of the SAME coin.

It's not rocket science . . .

So they fell away...that means their life was not everlasting...because their spiritual life came to an end.

The SAME is true for a person who is saved by what Christ did on the cross.

Except that those who are saved by Christ are saved from everlasting fire and are given everlasting life. If someone is "saved" from everlasting fire but then ends up burning in it, I would contend that they weren't saved from it in the first place! It was just some kind of jargon being used that had no real meaning; because they were never saved from everlasting fire; as evidenced by the fact that they ended up burning in everlasting fire.

 

[farouk]

So they fell away...that means their life was not everlasting...because their spiritual life came to an end.



Except that those who are saved by Christ are saved from everlasting fire and are given everlasting life. If someone is "saved" from everlasting fire but then ends up burning in it, I would contend that they weren't saved from it in the first place! It was just some kind of jargon being used that had no real meaning; because they were never saved from everlasting fire; as evidenced by the fact that they ended up burning in everlasting fire.

Well, exactly; 'saved today; lost tomorrow' is foreign to Scripture.

 

[BreadOfLife]

So they fell away...that means their life was not everlasting...because their spiritual life came to an end.

WRONG.
It WOULD have lasted - had they cooperated with God's grace - but they succumbed to darkness.
The seed that fell on good soil represents those who RETAINED the Word.
Get it - they endured in faith.

It's really NOT that difficult to understand - and NO reason to cling to a man-made perversion like OSAS . . .

Except that those who are saved by Christ are saved from everlasting fire and are given everlasting life. If someone is "saved" from everlasting fire but then ends up burning in it, I would contend that they weren't saved from it in the first place! It was just some kind of jargon being used that had no real meaning; because they were never saved from everlasting fire; as evidenced by the fact that they ended up burning in everlasting fire.

WRONG.

You can be saved - having a "share in the Tree of Life" - then later, choose darkness.
That's what the following verses are ALL about (Matt. 7:19-23, Matt. 10:22, Matt. 24:13, Matt. 25:31–46, John 15:1-6, Rom. 11:22, 1 Cor. 9:27, 1 Cor. 4:4, 1 Tim. 4:1, Heb. 3:6, Heb. 3:12-14, Heb 6:4-6, Heb. 10:26-27, 2 Pet.r 3:17, 1 John 2:24, 1 John 5:13, Rev. 3:5, Rev. 22:19).[/QUOTE]

 

[justbyfaith]

quoted from a previous post:

How does 1 John 5:13 teach what you are trying to espouse?

I looked at all of your verses, and here is my response:

If you will read the parable of the sower (Matthew 13:1-23, Mark 4:1-20, Luke 8:4-15), I believe that you will see that there are three types of ground that do not produce fruit. In one, the person believes for a while, and when persecution comes, they fall away. Another type of ground, the fruit is choked out by the weeds of the temptations of this world. But the good soil produces fruit with persevering patience.

I posit to you that it is only the good soil, in the parable, that can avail ourselves of the promises of scripture found in John 5:24, John 6:47, John 10:27-30, Hebrews 13:5, Matthew 28:20, etc. These promises are promises of eternal security for the believer, whether you like it or not. But they only apply to Jesus' sheep, whom He knows (John 10:27). And those whom He knows are not workers of iniquity (Matthew 7:23).

So if someone claims to be a Christian in front of you and falls away later, they were very likely never one of Jesus' sheep. Because it is promised to Jesus' sheep that they shall never perish (John 10:28). Also they shall not come into condemnation (John 5:24 (kjv)).

A person can have a mental assent to the doctrines of the faith (and thus be in the faith); but not have a living and saving faith that is unto righteousness (Romans 10:10, 1 John 3:7); a faith that is of the heart.

It is only those who have a heart faith that is unto righteousness, who are the good soil in the parable and who can avail themselves of the aforementioned promises on eternal security.

Scriptures to ponder:

2 Peter 1:3-4;

Hebrews 11:33;

2 Corinthians 1:20;

Romans 4:20-22.

 

[justbyfaith]

The seed that fell on good soil represents those who RETAINED the Word.
Get it - they endured in faith.

They retain the word and endure in the faith because they are good soil, not the other way around.