Literal or Figurative - versus - Concrete or Abstract
- Thread starter St. SteVen
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When it comes to Genesis account, the first verse states "In the beginning God." That takes faith to believe, that in the Beginning there was a God. Everything else takes faith to believe "when he spoke saying let there be light, and there was, and he separated the light from the darkness." Was this literal? It seems that one would have to take it in verse by verse, was it the whole world a flood, or was it a basin, in which the flood was in a area of land?"
Was the serpent something that Satan had possessed, maybe it was a Monkey instead.
You also have pictures and types of Jesus coming along the way, in Genesis. Such as when Jacob was given the authority of Pharaoh - that a picture and example of how God gave everything to his Son Yeshua, who would rule over everything.
Then you get to the end of Genesis and you have a new Pharaoh rise up that forgets about Jacob, and starts to enslave the Israelites.
A rising up of the Pharisees in Jesus days - and they started to enslave their own brothers.
From Genesis to Revelation, it's a mirror image with the ending everything being restored to the first.
(God has connection with man through Yeshua paying and getting rid of sin, raising again, and bringing back what Adam lost - Spiritual life, reborn again in Christ.)
There for it's a paradox. Through out the whole context of the bible there are literal areas that were found in excavations, and there are literal people in those times and days, but it all depends on...
"In the beginning God" because if you aren't going to have faith that he is real, the bible is over all pointless anyway to the unbeliever, which is of course a freewill choice, and there is leeway with God to think for oneself in my opinion (while in faith which is the only way to please him according to hebrews 11:6 but is that literal? ... I take it as that is truth.)
The biggest help is by and through the spirit, and there are a ton of pictures, shadows and types, and literal events.
Was the serpent something that Satan had possessed, maybe it was a Monkey instead.
You also have pictures and types of Jesus coming along the way, in Genesis. Such as when Jacob was given the authority of Pharaoh - that a picture and example of how God gave everything to his Son Yeshua, who would rule over everything.
Then you get to the end of Genesis and you have a new Pharaoh rise up that forgets about Jacob, and starts to enslave the Israelites.
A rising up of the Pharisees in Jesus days - and they started to enslave their own brothers.
From Genesis to Revelation, it's a mirror image with the ending everything being restored to the first.
(God has connection with man through Yeshua paying and getting rid of sin, raising again, and bringing back what Adam lost - Spiritual life, reborn again in Christ.)
There for it's a paradox. Through out the whole context of the bible there are literal areas that were found in excavations, and there are literal people in those times and days, but it all depends on...
"In the beginning God" because if you aren't going to have faith that he is real, the bible is over all pointless anyway to the unbeliever, which is of course a freewill choice, and there is leeway with God to think for oneself in my opinion (while in faith which is the only way to please him according to hebrews 11:6 but is that literal? ... I take it as that is truth.)
The biggest help is by and through the spirit, and there are a ton of pictures, shadows and types, and literal events.
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Wrangler
Well-Known Member
OK. After watching the vid for 3 minutes, which are 3 minutes I will never get back in my life, I realize how sad it is when people start a thread but are too lazy to write a thesis. Some just hope a vid will do the work of writing a thesis for them. Starting in ambiguity, where can it lead?
Running with the title, I'm sure there are already many threads that deal with needing the Spirit to properly divine God's word. When I 1st read the Bible, I was amazed at how figurative it is. The 'all or nothing' mentality shows unsophisticated thinking. Typically, those who are enemies of Christ want to dismiss the Bible's message this way.
Running with the title, I'm sure there are already many threads that deal with needing the Spirit to properly divine God's word. When I 1st read the Bible, I was amazed at how figurative it is. The 'all or nothing' mentality shows unsophisticated thinking. Typically, those who are enemies of Christ want to dismiss the Bible's message this way.
LOL
I hope the rest of your day goes swimmingly. Or is that too abstract?
David in NJ
Well-Known Member
Concrete is good for foundations and dams but it cannot walk on water
Abstract is good for art and for getting out of a ticket but it is faulty where precision is required
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Many who don't like what God said use, figuratively, symbolic, synonyms ... Especially concerning the eternal Hell fire that Jesus clearly warned us about, thereby endangering themselves and their loved ones of spending eternity with Satan!
Mt 25
41 “Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:
Rev 20
10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
I'll stick with LITERAL unless there's darn good reason not to. Satan hates the Literal Bible. He has used divide and conquer to create thousands of 'Christian' churches with DRASTICALLY different beliefs! Satan says, 'the Bible doesn't really mean what it says'. He has been very successful as we see in this forum!
2 Corinthians 11
14 Satan himself transforms himself into an angel of light.
15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also transform themselves into ministers of righteousness,
Mt 25
41 “Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:
Rev 20
10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
I'll stick with LITERAL unless there's darn good reason not to. Satan hates the Literal Bible. He has used divide and conquer to create thousands of 'Christian' churches with DRASTICALLY different beliefs! Satan says, 'the Bible doesn't really mean what it says'. He has been very successful as we see in this forum!
2 Corinthians 11
14 Satan himself transforms himself into an angel of light.
15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also transform themselves into ministers of righteousness,
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That's true, and mildly humorous. - LOL
I liked what N.T. Wright was saying at the outset of the video.
That literal and figurative really only refer to HOW something is being described.
The thing described may be either concrete or abstract.
Hope that helps our other poster friend, in need of a solid topic thesis.
Did I tell you that I completed a puzzle recently?
Rather difficult actually; it took me nearly two weeks.
Which I think was pretty good.
On the side of the box it said "2 TO 3 YEARS".
@Wrangler
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David in NJ
Well-Known Member
Dear St.SteVen,
I watched the video and cannot agree with what the speaker presented. He totally misses the point about understanding God's Word.
All of scripture is written in Christ's spiritual language (Isa 28:9-12). In that language, Christ uses words that are "spirit" (John 6:63) which carry meanings that are different from how man defines them. I call those spirit words "spiritual symbols".
Scripture uses spiritual symbols in "types" (literal history), in parables (fictional stories) and in analogies.
All the historical events taught in scripture teach spiritual messages by "type". An easy example is that of Noah and the flood.
"Noah and his family" is a "type" for the Elect.
The family consisted of Noah, his wife, three sons and their three wives. That's a total of eight people who entered the ark. The number eight is a spiritual symbol which carries the meaning of "a new spiritual condition". Concerning Noah and his family (type for one Elect believer), they represent an Elect believer's new spiritual condition which is given to them when they receive the Baptism of the Holy Spirit (Latter Rain). Their new spiritual condition is that of Christ. The ark is also a spiritual symbol which represents Christ. When Noah and his family entered the ark, they entered Christ. The flood which destroys the people of the world represents Christ's judgment of the Elect believer's carnality (symbolized by the "earth" or "world"). This judgment is said to occur in the Lake of Fire (another symbol) elsewhere in scripture. And since the Elect believer is "in Christ" (the ark), they do not experience the wrath of God during their judgment. Christ protects them from it. This concept is the same as in the marriage analogy where the Bride of Christ (new child of God) rides with Christ over their own judgment (Rev ch. 19).
Because the historical event of Noah and the flood represents the salvation of an Elect believer and their subsequent judgment, Christ refers to it below:
Mat 24:37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, 39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Matthew chapter 24 is a detailed teaching of the pathway an Elect believer will travel to have the "ends of the ages come upon them" (1Cor 10:11). When the ages end for the Elect, they will have become a spiritual man (New Man) and are no longer considered by God to be a part of "carnal" mankind (Old Man). They are then spiritually gathered (not literally) to dwell with Christ in heaven. This statement reflects that the Elect believer is no longer carnal and therefore, he no longer dwells upon the earth. Earth and Heaven are symbols for a person's spiritual state of being (where they dwell).
In Mat 24:37, Noah is a part of mankind who is said to be "eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage (all spiritual symbols). This represents Noah's carnal spiritual condition prior to him entering the ark (until the day that Noah entered the ark). After Noah entered the ark, sudden destruction (1Thes 5:3) came upon the world (Noah's carnality).
When Noah and his family entered the ark, that event represents in "type" when a believer is saved. This event will then be followed by judgment (the flood) which will destroy the carnality of the believer. These two spiritual events are both necessary requirements for "conversion".
John the Baptist proclaimed this truth below:
Mat 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Spirit, and with Fire:
To be converted, a person must received BOTH baptisms.
Also , notice that Christ says that these events of Noah and the flood relate to the coming of the Son of Man. Christ's "coming" is also called the second coming of Christ by the marriage analogy. Both "comings" are teaching about the same event when Christ comes to convert one of His Elect.
Using the marriage analogy, Paul refers to His second coming here:
Heb 9:28 So Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.
The moment of salvation occurs for a believer when Christ comes to them a second time. So why does the church teach that a person is saved prior to Christ's second coming?
The reason they teach this false truth is because they understand God's Word carnally (outwardly). In other words, they are spiritually blind. The church sees Christ's coming as being a one-time physical event which happens at the literal end of this age where human eyes can witness it. But scripture teaches that Christ's coming is a spiritual event which will happen within the lifetime of each of His Elect. When Christ comes to one of them, He will bring them salvation. For that reason, Revelation says that Christ is coming "quickly" (Rev 22:7, 22:12 & 22:20) and that that Christ "is, was and will be coming" (Rev 1:8, 4:8 & 11:7).
Christ's coming is not a one-time physical event. It is a reoccurring spiritual event.
Paul also mentioned Noah and the flood:
Heb 11:7 By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.
Paul used the historical event of Noah and the flood to teach about salvation.
The verse says that because of Noah's faith, he moved with fear (reverent trust) and prepared an ark (made straight the pathway for Christ to come). When Christ came, Christ protected Noah but condemned the world (Noah's carnality). Paul then says that Noah became an heir (First Fruit) of the promises made to Abraham.
How can we know that Paul was teaching in the same spiritual language by which Christ taught? We can have full assurance of it because Paul said that he taught this way:
1Cor 2:7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
1Cor 2:13 These things we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
What I have explained above about carnal understanding vs. spiritual understanding of God's Word is what the speaker of the video should have explained - but I don't believe he has that knowledge.
Joe
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Zechariah 14
1 Behold, the day of the LORD is coming, ...
4 And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, Which faces Jerusalem on the east.
Acts 1
9 Now when He had spoken these things, while they watched, He was taken up, and a cloud received Him out of their sight.
10 And while they looked steadfastly toward heaven as He went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel,
11 who also said, "Men of Galilee, why do you stand gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven."
1 Behold, the day of the LORD is coming, ...
4 And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, Which faces Jerusalem on the east.
Acts 1
9 Now when He had spoken these things, while they watched, He was taken up, and a cloud received Him out of their sight.
10 And while they looked steadfastly toward heaven as He went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel,
11 who also said, "Men of Galilee, why do you stand gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven."
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Thanks, Joe.
I understand that you disagree with EVERYONE.
Not sure why. Care to explain?
Wrangler
Well-Known Member
Wrangler
Well-Known Member
Not one little bit.
Here is a non-theological example of an OP with a thesis statement right off the bat.
Thesis statement. Math works.
Supporting Evidence.
EXAMPLE 1
EXAMPLE 2
EXAMPLE 3
Hook (why people ought to participate in thread). Do you agree? If not what examples show math does not work? If you agree, why do you suppose people do not rely on math as they could?
Your OP and post above where you talk about what you like is doubling down on uncoordinated facts, statements in search of a purpose and reason for being expressed.
NOTE: With a well constructed thesis statement and hook, those who agree AND disagree can both meaningfully contribute to a well thought out thread.
Hope this helps.
Satan HATES the Literal Christian Bible! That's why we have thousands of 'Christian' churches that believe drastically different.
2 Corinthians 11
14 Satan himself transforms himself into an angel of light.
15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also transform themselves into ministers of righteousness,
Satan has been BUSY!
2 Corinthians 11
14 Satan himself transforms himself into an angel of light.
15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also transform themselves into ministers of righteousness,
Satan has been BUSY!
Maybe you are overthinking it?
I didn't force you to watch a 3 minute video (and complain about the 3 minutes you'll "never get back" - Seriously?) on a thread
that was OBVIOUSLY missing the thesis statement you REQUIRE for a meaningful discussion experience. Right?
And you STILL have NOTHING to contribute to the topic itself.
Is the Bible literal, or figurative?
How does concrete and abstract fit in the way we view the Bible?
Dear Jack,
The events described in Zechariah 14 is a prophecy of the end-time. It is presented in Christ's spiritual language. It is not teaching about a one-time future physical event as you understand the prophecy. The scripture is teaching about the spiritual day of judgment (Day of the Lord) when Christ pours out his wrath upon the carnality of an Elect believer.
The Mount of Olives upon which Christ stands (v. 4) is a spiritual symbol which represents the time when Christ reigns over the earth (carnality of an Elect believer) in judgment. It is for that symbolic reason that when Jesus presented His teaching in Matt 24, he did so from the Mount of Olives:
Mat 24:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
The judgment of the Elect described in Matthew chapter 24 is the same judgment presented in Zechariah 14. It is also the same judgment presented in the book of Revelation in the sixth seal, the six bowls of wrath and by the Supper of the Great God (ch. 19). All these teachings are presented in Christ's spiritual language. They are not physical one-time future events. They have already happened (or will happen) within the Elect of this age when Christ comes to them and converts with the baptism of the Holy Spirit and the baptism of Fire (judgment).
Joe
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Wrangler
Well-Known Member
I strongly disagree!
It is because of the glorious and beautiful flowering of the Holy Spirit that explains why we have so many denominations. Each attract a different group in need of Christ.
Like diets, the ‘drastically different’ beliefs all work when you stick to them in terms of bring people to Christ. I’ve come to see the myriad Christian doctrines as a poisonous IDOL where Satan wedges to unnecessarily keep us divided.
Hope this helps.
Dear Jack,
Satan devoured the church shortly after Paul's departing. Satan did not spare any of the flock.
The "thousands of Christian churches" in the world are fully and completely under Satan's influence. This happened because the churches are spiritually blind and have no ability to "see" Christ in scripture. They try to understand scripture "literally" as you do, instead of understanding it spiritually. Because the churches try to understand it literally and physically, they teach "drastically different" versions of the truth of Christ.
The "type" of the Tower of Babel teaches this confusion of languages in the church.
Joe
Wrangler
Well-Known Member
Passive aggressive.
Maybe you are not thinking it through enough - and I mean certainly.
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