Living what we preach. Faith alone vs faith with works

[Karl Peters]

Man is saved through faith and not by works (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9); yet genuine faith is (evidenced) by works. (James 2:14-24)

*Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption "alone" and not based on the merits of our works.*

It is through faith "in Christ alone" (and not based on the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 3:24-28; 5:1; 5:9); yet the faith that justifies does not remain alone (unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine. (James 2:14-24) *Perfect Harmony*

Man is saved through faith in Christ alone (apart from the merit of works) yet authentic faith does not remain alone (apart from the presence of works). This is not hard to understand. It's just hard for people who embrace salvation by faith + works to ACCEPT.

We are saved by faith alone - yet the proof of that faith (your being justified as having faith) is that you are doing works according to what Jesus Christ tells you via His Holy Spirit.

Not there is, or I should say was, a justification needed even to have God listen to us, which is a different thing. Because of our sin a price had to be paid or perhaps we could say a cleansing needed to be done, or you might just say we needed to be forgiven, so that we are made worthy to even be heard by God. Jesus paid that price, cleansed us and intercedes for us, and asked His Father to forgive us. Of course His Father always considers and does what His Son asks, because His Son always considers and does what His Father asks. So the Christ is rightfully called Jesus (God's salvation) Yet His going to the cross is not the proof of your faith. Your listening to the Lord and then doing what He tells you is the proof of you faith and your being justified as having faith!!!

James wrote about this!!!

James 2:14 - 20

What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him?

If a brother or sister is without clothing and in need of daily food, and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and be filled,” and yet you do not give them what is necessary for their body, what use is that?

Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself.

But someone may well say, “You have faith and I have works; show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works.”

You believe that God is one. You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder.

But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless?

If indeed we hear the Lord Jesus Christ by faith, do we not get instructions?
And if instructions, what were those instructions about?
Where that not instructions to help others in some way or another?

Now I have and get many instructions from my Lord who is always with me. Of course I get many instructions everyday from the One called Lord, because He is with me!!! And so the best piece of advice I can give anyone is to listen to my Lord by faith and do what He askes of you!!!

Yes we are saved by faith, yet it is a faith in Jesus Christ the Lord of lords and King of kings, so instructions are given to everyone, if they have any part of His Kingdom.

Yet James found others promoting another type of faith, something James referred to as "that faith", where people said they had faith but it did get them to do things for other people. "That faith" will not save you!! Our faith means hearing the Lord who is love, so you do things, according to what He tells you, to help other people!!

Now let me ask - If you are promoting that a person is saved by faith and justified by faith so that and no works are needed, do you promote hearing from God by faith and that meaning you are going to be doing good works?? That is not what James promoted!!

James 2:24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

So James - and you will note that James wrote Scriptures - that we are justified by works and not by faith alone. So should what we say and write not match up with the Scriptures? So yeah, we are saved by faith but a faith that requires works which justify us!!!!

Perhaps we might need to examine the type of faith that we have?? We do want the type of faith that lead to eternal life and not death, right?


James 2:26 For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.

If indeed you have the Holy Spirit of God you hear from the Lord our God Jesus Christ!! Jesus Christ sends His Holy Spirit with His words to speak to your spirit! (See John 16) And if you are indeed hearing the words of God coming through His Holy Spirit to your spirit; has it not become plainly obvious that He asks you to do things for others because it seems that He indeed loves His creation??

Let me just say that as for me, I have a Lord. He speaks to me and always there to be heard from. He I find Him weird, because His thoughts are not my thoughts. My Lord seems to love His creation, though He tends to hate the things we do because we don't listen to Him. And because I even take a little time each day to listen to Him, I hear Him talking to me via the small voice of His, and that often leads to helping other people in some way or another.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Maybe you are missing what you wrote and the scripture that proved you wrong??

You wrote:



Yet we read :

James 2:24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

M So you do not match up with what James wrote which is Scriptures!!!!

How did you miss this and get it wrong?????

The main reason is that you didn't seek the Lord on this!!

Yes we are saved by faith alone!! Buy we are not justified by faith alone!!!!!!!!!

Does that mean we lean on our own understanding for what works to do? NO!!

It means that if we have faith we listen to the Lord and do what He tells us to do. And unless you are listening to the Lord and doing what He tells you to do, your works are not "GOOD WORKS" - because only God is good!! So we are justified by listen to the Lord and also doing what He tells us!!! So not justified by faith alone!!! Saved by faith alone, yes, but not justified by faith alone!! And that is what James wrote!! If your understanding does not match up with all the Scriptures, you need to seek the voice of the Lord for better understanding!!

So what happens when you read 2 scriptures and one reads:
2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
and the other reads
James 2:24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

The answer is that you need to seek the Lord and He will explain to you that even Abramham doing the works that he thought was right does not mean Abraham was justified, However the works that Abramham did because the Lord told him to do (that is the works from hearing by faith) did justify him. Those works proved that Abramhan was listening to the Lord.

So when you wrote " Faith results in good works, but works play no part in salvation." you are right in that the good works (works done by hearing with faith) plays no part in salvation, but wrong to say that they play no part in justification!!

Now if you listen to Him you would also get an explanation about different things being justified and the meaning of justification.

You will find out that we, any of us, get justified for many things in our lives and to different people. That is to say being justified mean you are proven 'right' or to say it another way, you are proven to be just and morally right:

meaning of "Just" based on or behaving according to what is morally right and fair: "a just and democratic society" · "fighting for a just cause"

Now Jesus Christ, by His going to the cross and forgiving us has justified us before God. So we can go to God via Jesus Christ and hear what God has to say to us.

Still to prove that we do that also requires action based upon hearing the Lord.

Which explains why we read:

Mat 12:50 “For whoever does the will of My Father who is in heaven, he is My brother and sister and mother.”

There is then required action: doing the "will of His Father who is in heaven" and not just hearing by faith! The action then proves (justifies) that we are hearing Him and believing His is our Lord!!!

This is why what James wrote: James 2:24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

and what you wrote, "We are justified also by faith alone" is wrong.

And again, what amazes me it that you don't seem to understand this!!

Is is not obvious that when you listen to Jesus Christ (God's Salvation) you realize that He loves you and saves you, but at the same time is it not also obvious that He gives you instructions as your Lord which you do because you believe Him to be the Lord!!!

Those two things should be obvious to any real believer, who listens to the Lord by faith!! So how can that real believer not understand that we are not justified by faith alone??? Our faith caused us to listen to Jesus Christ as our Lord and the listening to the Lord resulted in GOOD WORKS and the doing them proves (justifies us) that we were listening to Him!! So justified by faith alone - of course not!! Yeah - justified because of faith but a faith that results in doing GOOD WORKS (works that He who alone if good told us to do) as opposed to works from our own understanding!!

So to you Paul is lying then.

All of your worldy examples of just and justification mean nothing. It is the biblical definition that matters and justification biblically means being declared righteous.

We are declared righteous by faith alone! Jesus becomes our righteousness. then we are free to perform the good works god intends us to do.

Yo don't seem to see that I am not saying we do not need to do good works, for we do. they just play no part in our being saved and being declared righteous before god.

 

[mailmandan]

We are saved by faith alone - yet the proof of that faith (your being justified as having faith) is that you are doing works according to what Jesus Christ tells you via His Holy Spirit.

Not there is, or I should say was, a justification needed even to have God listen to us, which is a different thing. Because of our sin a price had to be paid or perhaps we could say a cleansing needed to be done, or you might just say we needed to be forgiven, so that we are made worthy to even be heard by God. Jesus paid that price, cleansed us and intercedes for us, and asked His Father to forgive us. Of course His Father always considers and does what His Son asks, because His Son always considers and does what His Father asks. So the Christ is rightfully called Jesus (God's salvation) Yet His going to the cross is not the proof of your faith. Your listening to the Lord and then doing what He tells you is the proof of you faith and your being justified as having faith!!!

James wrote about this!!!

James 2:14 - 20

What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him?

If a brother or sister is without clothing and in need of daily food, and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and be filled,” and yet you do not give them what is necessary for their body, what use is that?

Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself.

But someone may well say, “You have faith and I have works; show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works.”

You believe that God is one. You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder.

But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless?

If indeed we hear the Lord Jesus Christ by faith, do we not get instructions?
And if instructions, what were those instructions about?
Where that not instructions to help others in some way or another?

Now I have and get many instructions from my Lord who is always with me. Of course I get many instructions everyday from the One called Lord, because He is with me!!! And so the best piece of advice I can give anyone is to listen to my Lord by faith and do what He askes of you!!!

Yes we are saved by faith, yet it is a faith in Jesus Christ the Lord of lords and King of kings, so instructions are given to everyone, if they have any part of His Kingdom.

Yet James found others promoting another type of faith, something James referred to as "that faith", where people said they had faith but it did get them to do things for other people. "That faith" will not save you!! Our faith means hearing the Lord who is love, so you do things, according to what He tells you, to help other people!!

Now let me ask - If you are promoting that a person is saved by faith and justified by faith so that and no works are needed, do you promote hearing from God by faith and that meaning you are going to be doing good works?? That is not what James promoted!!

James 2:24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

So James - and you will note that James wrote Scriptures - that we are justified by works and not by faith alone. So should what we say and write not match up with the Scriptures? So yeah, we are saved by faith but a faith that requires works which justify us!!!!

Perhaps we might need to examine the type of faith that we have?? We do want the type of faith that lead to eternal life and not death, right?

James 2:26 For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.

If indeed you have the Holy Spirit of God you hear from the Lord our God Jesus Christ!! Jesus Christ sends His Holy Spirit with His words to speak to your spirit! (See John 16) And if you are indeed hearing the words of God coming through His Holy Spirit to your spirit; has it not become plainly obvious that He asks you to do things for others because it seems that He indeed loves His creation??

Let me just say that as for me, I have a Lord. He speaks to me and always there to be heard from. He I find Him weird, because His thoughts are not my thoughts. My Lord seems to love His creation, though He tends to hate the things we do because we don't listen to Him. And because I even take a little time each day to listen to Him, I hear Him talking to me via the small voice of His, and that often leads to helping other people in some way or another.

In James 2:14, we read of one who says/claims (key word) he has faith but has no works (to evidence his claim). That is not genuine faith, but a bare profession of faith. So, when James asks, "Can that faith save him?" he is saying nothing against genuine faith, but only against an empty profession of faith/dead faith. So, James does not teach that we are saved "by" works. His concern is to show the reality of the faith professed by the individual (James 2:18) and demonstrate that the faith claimed (James 2:14) by the individual is genuine. Simple!

In regard to "faith without works is dead," James does not mean that faith is dead until it produces works and then it becomes a living faith, and the works are the source of life in faith. That would be like saying that a tree is dead until it produces fruit and then it becomes a living tree, and the fruit is the source of life in the tree. Something that is dead cannot produce anything. It takes a living faith to produce works (Ephesians 2:5-10) just as it takes a living tree to produce fruit.

So, James is simply saying faith that is not accompanied by evidential works (bare profession of faith) demonstrates that it's dead. If someone merely says-claims they have faith, but lack resulting evidential works, then they demonstrate that they have an empty profession of faith/dead faith and not authentic faith. (James 2:14)

James is not using the word "justified" in James 2:24 to mean "accounted as righteous" but is shown to be righteous. James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God. (Romans 4:2-3)

In the Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, the Greek word for justified "dikaioo" #1344 is:

1. to render righteous or such he ought to be
2. to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered
3. to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be

In Matthew 12:37, we read - "For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned." This is because our words (and our works) reveal the condition of our hearts. Words/works are evidence for, or against being in a state of righteousness.

God is said to have been justified by those who were baptized by John the Baptist (Luke 7:29). This act pronounced or declared God to be righteous. It did not make him righteous. The basis or ground for the pronouncement was the fact that God IS righteous. Notice that the NIV reads, "acknowledged that God's way was right.." The ESV reads, "they declared God just.." That is the "sense" in which God was "justified." He was shown to be righteous.

Matthew 11:19 "The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Behold, a gluttonous man and a drunkard, a friend of tax-gatherers and sinners!' Yet wisdom is justified/vindicated/shown to be right by her deeds.

In regard to James 2:26, the comparison of the human spirit and faith here converges around their modes of operation. The spirit (Greek pneuma) may also be translated "breath." As a breathless body exhibits no indication of life, so fruitless faith exhibits no indication of life. The source of the life in faith is not works; rather, life in faith is the source of works. (Ephesians 2:5-10)

 

[Karl Peters]

So to you Paul is lying then.

All of your worldy examples of just and justification mean nothing. It is the biblical definition that matters and justification biblically means being declared righteous.

We are declared righteous by faith alone! Jesus becomes our righteousness. then we are free to perform the good works god intends us to do.

Yo don't seem to see that I am not saying we do not need to do good works, for we do. they just play no part in our being saved and being declared righteous before god.

Paul is not lying and neither is James - but your understanding it wrong.

All the verses of the Bible are fine - but people don't listen to the Lord and hear what He has to say - so they miss the fact that real understanding does not come from your leaning on your own understanding!!!!!!!

Prov 2:6 For the LORD gives wisdom;
From His mouth come knowledge and understanding.

And that is what I have been telling you all along!!

Let me just say that as for me, I have a Lord. He speaks to me and always there to be heard from

If you were to hear Him speaks to you and regularly talk to Him, even as a person should with the “KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.”

You would understand that while we are saved by believing in Him, there are instructions given by Him which require us to do the work He asks us to do!! Therefore pretending you believe and pretending you follow His instructions is not the same as actually hearing from Him and doing what He tells you - and all of heaven knows this!!

Is 30:9 For this is a rebellious people, false sons,
Sons who refuse to listen
To the instruction of the LORD;

Therefore the faith that we have in Jesus Christ as Lord is a faith that listens to Him and the instructions that He has, and that means a faith the results in doing the works that He asks you to do. The works then, show you believe in Him, and the belief results in works that He asks you to do, and any person true believer is a believer that listens to Him and does things that He asks them to do!! So a true believer understands, but the false sons does not listen. They pretend obedience, and because they don't hear what comes out of the mouth of the Holy Spirit (Wisdom) they don't get the words of Understanding (The Son) and Knowledge (The Father) - and though you explain it all clearly they still won't listen because they are rebellious sons, false sons.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Paul is not lying and neither is James - but your understanding it wrong.

All the verses of the Bible are fine - but people don't listen to the Lord and hear what He has to say - so they miss the fact that real understanding does not come from your leaning on your own understanding!!!!!!!

Prov 2:6 For the LORD gives wisdom;
From His mouth come knowledge and understanding.

And that is what I have been telling you all along!!

And I know th eLord gives understanding. so why should I accept what yo0u say is from the Lord and not what I have learned or those who have shepherded me over the years?

 

[Ronald Nolette]

If you were to hear Him speaks to you and regularly talk to Him, even as a person should with the “KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.”

You would understand that while we are saved by believing in Him, there are instructions given by Him which require us to do the work He asks us to do!! Therefore pretending you believe and pretending you follow His instructions is not the same as actually hearing from Him and doing what He tells you - and all of heaven knows this!!

And I have agreed with this, so why do you keep bringing it up? I pray and do so what is your issue?

 

[Karl Peters]

And I know th eLord gives understanding. so why should I accept what yo0u say is from the Lord and not what I have learned or those who have shepherded me over the years?

Because the Bible explains that you need to know Jesus Christ and that the Lord gives wisdom; and from His mouth comes understanding and knowledge!!!!!!!!!!!!

Look at what you actually wrote!!!!!

You explain that "I have learned or those who have shepherded me over the years"

Look close - you wrote "THOSE WHO HAVE SHEPPERDED ME"!!!!!!

Yet we have One who shepherds us - not "those" but HIM our Lord Jesus Christ - and you say that they are "those", and not the One!!!!

Now what I write is that we (Christians) need to seek Him, the One - Jesus Christ!!!

I may tell you what He gives me, but that is a testimony that He indeed speaks!!! So my posts are listen to Him, and provide a testimony about Him speaking!! But you, by what you wrote, do not accept our (those like me who hear from Him) testimony about Him, otherwise you would not have written a choice of believing me (who tells you to listen to HIm) or "THOSE" many who have been shepherding you over the years!!

As a testimony about hearing from Him, let me give you an example:

One day I was working at the bookstore at the church I go to now. I go there because the One, My Lord Jesus Christ, told me to go there. He also told me to work at the bookstore, at that time, so I was. When a person came up and asked me if I had gone to listen to the early morning teaching that the church's pastor was doing on Wednesdays. My Lord had not told me to go there, which didn't surprise me because I have a business that I run and going there would have made that hard. Anyway the man told me, "You have got to listen to our pastor". To which I just smiled at the man, because of course I have heard him on many weekends. The man was just being silly, as if the Wednesday morning was all that mattered to him.

Anyway - as the man walked away the ONE - Jesus Christ the Lord my God - spoken to me via the small voice of His and He told me, "Karl, if they tell you that you have to listen to their pastor, tell them they have to listen to your Pastor!"


That is the problem, you listen to your pastor and many other people who you learn from but you don't listen to My Pastor - Jesus Chrsit - otherwise you would not have written what you did!!

And let me back that up with a few verses - so you might know that He is right and you need to listen to Him, like I am telling you to do!!

Mat 23:8 “But do not be called Rabbi; for One is your Teacher, and you are all brothers.

The Bible explains that One is your Teacher but you write "Those"!

Jn 10:1-4 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who does not enter by the door into the fold of the sheep, but climbs up some other way, he is a thief and a robber. “But he who enters by the door is a shepherd of the sheep. “To him the doorkeeper opens, and the sheep hear his voice, and he calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. “When he puts forth all his own, he goes ahead of them, and the sheep follow him because they know his voice.

How many shepherds do you read about in Jn 10:1-4??????

Just One, right?????????

Now I personally don't have a problem with people calling the head of their church and others in authority there, a "pastor". But somewhere in them, they must understand that really we have only One Teacher and Pastor, and He is the Lord our God Jesus Christ!! That means we hear from Him, learn from Him, get advice from Him, ---- and as a results we have a testimony about Him in us!!

So I can tell you a testimony about Him, and I do, but you don't accept my testimony!! You don't have to actually believe my testimony of Him, but you have to believe in Him!! Yet if you did believe in Him, you could have and probably would have taken my testimony to Him and then listen to what He told you personally. Then you would have know that our Teacher, Pastor, and Lord are One - Jesus Christ!! You would know Him personally and have known that what I said about Him is true. It is the same thing that Isaiah wrote also:

Is 1:2Listen, O heavens, and hear, O earth;
For the LORD speaks,
“Sons I have reared and brought up,
But they have revolted against Me.

Is 1:L3 “An ox knows its owner,
And a donkey its master’s manger,
But Israel does not know,
My people do not understand.”


Indeed, what happened that "those" who you learned from did tell you this exact thing?? Who were they listening to?

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Because the Bible explains that you need to know Jesus Christ and that the Lord gives wisdom; and from His mouth comes understanding and knowledge!!!!!!!!!!!!

Look at what you actually wrote!!!!!

You explain that "I have learned or those who have shepherded me over the years"

Look close - you wrote "THOSE WHO HAVE SHEPPERDED ME"!!!!!!

Yet we have One who shepherds us - not "those" but HIM our Lord Jesus Christ - and you say that they are "those", and not the One!!!!

Now what I write is that we (Christians) need to seek Him, the One - Jesus Christ!!!

I may tell you what He gives me, but that is a testimony that He indeed speaks!!! So my posts are listen to Him, and provide a testimony about Him speaking!! But you, by what you wrote, do not accept our (those like me who hear from Him) testimony about Him, otherwise you would not have written a choice of believing me (who tells you to listen to HIm) or "THOSE" many who have been shepherding you over the years!!

As a testimony about hearing from Him, let me give you an example:

One day I was working at the bookstore at the church I go to now. I go there because the One, My Lord Jesus Christ, told me to go there. He also told me to work at the bookstore, at that time, so I was. When a person came up and asked me if I had gone to listen to the early morning teaching that the church's pastor was doing on Wednesdays. My Lord had not told me to go there, which didn't surprise me because I have a business that I run and going there would have made that hard. Anyway the man told me, "You have got to listen to our pastor". To which I just smiled at the man, because of course I have heard him on many weekends. The man was just being silly, as if the Wednesday morning was all that mattered to him.

Anyway - as the man walked away the ONE - Jesus Christ the Lord my God - spoken to me via the small voice of His and He told me, "Karl, if they tell you that you have to listen to their pastor, tell them they have to listen to your Pastor!"


That is the problem, you listen to your pastor and many other people who you learn from but you don't listen to My Pastor - Jesus Chrsit - otherwise you would not have written what you did!!

And let me back that up with a few verses - so you might know that He is right and you need to listen to Him, like I am telling you to do!!

Mat 23:8 “But do not be called Rabbi; for One is your Teacher, and you are all brothers.

The Bible explains that One is your Teacher but you write "Those"!

Jn 10:1-4 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who does not enter by the door into the fold of the sheep, but climbs up some other way, he is a thief and a robber. “But he who enters by the door is a shepherd of the sheep. “To him the doorkeeper opens, and the sheep hear his voice, and he calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. “When he puts forth all his own, he goes ahead of them, and the sheep follow him because they know his voice.

How many shepherds do you read about in Jn 10:1-4??????

Just One, right?????????

Now I personally don't have a problem with people calling the head of their church and others in authority there, a "pastor". But somewhere in them, they must understand that really we have only One Teacher and Pastor, and He is the Lord our God Jesus Christ!! That means we hear from Him, learn from Him, get advice from Him, ---- and as a results we have a testimony about Him in us!!

So I can tell you a testimony about Him, and I do, but you don't accept my testimony!! You don't have to actually believe my testimony of Him, but you have to believe in Him!! Yet if you did believe in Him, you could have and probably would have taken my testimony to Him and then listen to what He told you personally. Then you would have know that our Teacher, Pastor, and Lord are One - Jesus Christ!! You would know Him personally and have known that what I said about Him is true. It is the same thing that Isaiah wrote also:

Is 1:2Listen, O heavens, and hear, O earth;
For the LORD speaks,
“Sons I have reared and brought up,
But they have revolted against Me.

Is 1:L3 “An ox knows its owner,
And a donkey its master’s manger,
But Israel does not know,
My people do not understand.”


Indeed, what happened that "those" who you learned from did tell you this exact thing?? Who were they listening to?

Let me ask you a question. Do you belong to a local assembly and sit under the teaching of a pastor/teacher?

 

[Karl Peters]

Let me ask you a question. Do you belong to a local assembly and sit under the teaching of a pastor/teacher?

Even look at your question - and the presumptions it makes.

I have a Christian church which I currently attend and that because my Lord Jesus Christ tells me to go to that church. Is there a pastor who does some teaching and preaching. Actually, there a number of them because the church the Lord has me attend at this time is a very large Christian church, which can seat over 2,000 people in their main sanctuary, and they have three services each weekend. S

And I write "at this time", because during my 20 plus years of walking and talking personally with the Lord, He has had me at different Christian churches at times. Indeed, there was a time when He asked me to open and run a Christian bookstore for Him, and at that time, while there was a specific church in town He mainly had me attending, He also had me going to many of the other churches in town because He wanted me to get to know them, as the operator of the Christian bookstore in town.

What you question implies is that there is a particular "pastor/teacher" that we are to "sit under" and that is wrong thinking - except when applied to Jesus Christ and Him alone!!!!!!!!!!!!!

So even you question shows you don't understand this!!

Have you not read that they will all be taught of God??????

It is not that the Lord our God, Jesus Christ can not use people! He can and does use people in His work, and indeed He very much wants to use us in His work!! Yet to use us we must listen to Him personally!! That what it means to call Jesus Christ "Lord"!!

We don't sit under people - we sit under Him!! That is the One thing necessary - that you sit under Him and listen!!

That too is explained in the Bible!! Read the verses below and ask how this story is to be applied to your life?

Luke 10: 38 - 42 Now as they were traveling along, He entered a village; and a woman named Martha welcomed Him into her home.
She had a sister called Mary, who was seated at the Lord’s feet, listening to His word.
But Martha was distracted with all her preparations; and she came up to Him and said, “Lord, do You not care that my sister has left me to do all the serving alone? Then tell her to help me.”
But the Lord answered and said to her, “Martha, Martha, you are worried and bothered about so many things; but only one thing is necessary, for Mary has chosen the good part, which shall not be taken away from her.”

I underlined the "only one thing is necessary" part!

Are you being like Mary who was sitting under the Jesus and listening to Him - or are you trying to be like Martha - where you let Jesus into your house and trying to clean things up, but are not listening to Jesus Christ???

To answer your question, I sit under Jesus Christ and listen to Him!!

I can appreciate people who are trying to work for Him in the house, like Martha, but if they are not listening to Him then they are not qualified to be teaching anyone!!

That too is in the Bible!!

Heb 5: 11 - 14 Concerning him we have much to say, and it is hard to explain, since you have become dull of hearing. For though by this time you ought to be teachers, you have need again for someone to teach you the elementary principles of the oracles of God, and you have come to need milk and not solid food. For everyone who partakes only of milk is not accustomed to the word of righteousness, for he is an infant. But solid food is for the mature, who because of practice have their senses trained to discern good and evil.

If a person is not practicing using their spiritual senses, like hearing, to know what the Lord is teaching them, then they are not even qualified to teach!!!! That is according to the Bible!! So like a pianist needs to sit down regularly, and practice playing, so too Christians need to sit down with Jesus Christ regularly and listen to Him with the spiritual senses!

If they do, it is easy and fun to talk about the Lord, if they don't it takes a lot of writing to explain the obvious - which is God gave us His only begotten Son!!! He gave Jesus Christ to us, even the One whose name is called "The Word of God", because He has the words of God for us personally!! And we can and need to listen to Him on those days called "TODAY"!

So if we find a person asking, "Do you belong to a local assembly and sit under the teaching of a pastor/teacher?" The answer maybe yes, but it is not yes like they think, is it? They wrote "pastor/teacher" as opposed to our Pastor and Teacher - because they don't know Jesus Christ, didn't they? If you are talking about God, should you not capitalize the word to show that you are talking about God, right? But it was not capitalized, so the very question indicates the Jesus Christ, who is the Word of God and God, is not the pastor/teacher they are asking about. It indicates the do not actually know Jesus Christ personally!! And that is a problem, because only one thing is necessary is sitting and listening to Jesus Christ like Mary was doing!!

So my question to them is: How did they miss the fact that we have to listen to Jesus Christ?

They need to ask themselves "Who are those pastors and teachers they are learning from? Are they not men who themselves are not listening to Jesus Christ?"

We also find this problem explained in the Bible!

Jn 5:34 “But the testimony which I receive is not from man, but I say these things so that you may be saved.

Jn 5:37 “And the Father who sent Me, He has testified of Me. You have neither heard His voice at any time nor seen His form. “You do not have His word abiding in you, for you do not believe Him whom He sent.

Jn 5:41 “I do not receive glory from men;

Jn 5:44 “How can you believe, when you receive glory from one another, and you do not seek the glory that is from the one and only God?


The Lord can and does use other people, but even when the "pastors" at the church I attend bring a message they claim is from God; I still take it to my Pastor/Teacher Jesus Christ and listen to what He has to say about it. Can one person speaking to thousands give me the personal information I need to know about my life? No - but God gave us His only begotten Son that whoever believes in Him will be saved!! And if you believe in Him you will be seeking Him and what He personally has to say to you!!

Did you not even read Heb 3:7-11 :

Therefore, just as the Holy Spirit says,
“TODAY IF YOU HEAR HIS VOICE,
DO NOT HARDEN YOUR HEARTS AS WHEN THEY PROVOKED ME,
AS IN THE DAY OF TRIAL IN THE WILDERNESS,
WHERE YOUR FATHERS TRIED Me BY TESTING Me,
AND SAW MY WORKS FOR FORTY YEARS.
“THEREFORE I WAS ANGRY WITH THIS GENERATION,
AND SAID, ‘THEY ALWAYS GO ASTRAY IN THEIR HEART,
AND THEY DID NOT KNOW MY WAYS’;
AS I SWORE IN MY WRATH,
‘THEY SHALL NOT ENTER MY REST.’”

People need to understand this! If they are not listening to Jesus Christ via His Holy Spirit today, then they are not doing the one thing necessary!! THEY SHALL NOT ENTER INTO HIS REST!!!

This was explained through Luke's writings about Mary and Martha. It was explained through John's writing about the Jews. It was explained to the Hebrews in the book called Hebrews. And it is explained all through the Bible - so have they even read the Bible?? How did they miss the fact that we (real Christians) will all be taught of God?

Jn 6:45 “It is written in the prophets, ‘AND THEY SHALL ALL BE TAUGHT OF GOD.' Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Even look at your question - and the presumptions it makes.

I have a Christian church which I currently attend and that because my Lord Jesus Christ tells me to go to that church. Is there a pastor who does some teaching and preaching. Actually, there a number of them because the church the Lord has me attend at this time is a very large Christian church, which can seat over 2,000 people in their main sanctuary, and they have three services each weekend. S

And I write "at this time", because during my 20 plus years of walking and talking personally with the Lord, He has had me at different Christian churches at times. Indeed, there was a time when He asked me to open and run a Christian bookstore for Him, and at that time, while there was a specific church in town He mainly had me attending, He also had me going to many of the other churches in town because He wanted me to get to know them, as the operator of the Christian bookstore in town.

What you question implies is that there is a particular "pastor/teacher" that we are to "sit under" and that is wrong thinking - except when applied to Jesus Christ and Him alone!!!!!!!!!!!!!

So you also sit under the teachings of Pastor/teachers as I do.

Well your thinking and not any implication says there is one particular pastor other than Jesus. I have gone to 3 churches in my 50 years of walking and fellowshipping with the Lord, but have listened to many godly men who are bona fide teachers of the word. does that mean I hold them to the same level as Jesus? Of course not! Only god is infallible.

We don't sit under people - we sit under Him!! That is the One thing necessary - that you sit under Him and listen!!

And part of sitting under Him is to sit under the authority of a pastor/teacher to be matured and equipped for th ework of the ministry. God uses the local church and the office of pastor/teacher to mature his children. why you even challenge this is befuddling.

The Lord can and does use other people, but even when the "pastors" at the church I attend bring a message they claim is from God; I still take it to my Pastor/Teacher Jesus Christ and listen to what He has to say about it. Can one person speaking to thousands give me the personal information I need to know about my life? No - but God gave us His only begotten Son that whoever believes in Him will be saved!! And if you believe in Him you will be seeking Him and what He personally has to say to you!!

As I have done all my life. It seems you have a deep bias that causes you to misread and misunderstand what I say.

People need to understand this! If they are not listening to Jesus Christ via His Holy Spirit today, then they are not doing the one thing necessary!! THEY SHALL NOT ENTER INTO HIS REST!!!

This is a given. So what is your issue with what I say! all I have said is biblical. Others have taught me and I have taught others and God is the one who proves whether what I speask is true or not. We are to be Bereans. But it takes people with the gifts of the Spirit to help us to a fuller understanding so we can develop a much deeper personal relationship with God. That is the function of the body of christ as Paul declared in 1 cor.

 

[Karl Peters]

As I have done all my life. It seems you have a deep bias that causes you to misread and misunderstand what I say.

I obviously didn't misread it - because I quoted it and pointed out exactly what you wrote!! You wrote it - and I just pointed out to you what you wrote! So it is not my misreading but your understanding of that is going on around you and in you which is the problem!!

Let me point something out to you about the Word of God we preach and how proper understanding makes a difference to us:

Romans 10:8 But what does it say? “THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART”—that is, the word of faith which we are preaching,

Look close at the verse above. The word of faith which we are preaching is found in your mouth and in your heart. If we truly understand that we can and should examine what comes out our mouth!!!! Somewhere in there is the Word of God, because the Holy Spirit is bringing the words of the Lord our God Jesus Christ to our spirit. And what our spirit picks up will tend to come out our mouth - either the influence from demonic spirit or the influence from the Holy Spirit and the angels which serve the Lord. And that stuff coming out our mouth also tends to come out our writings for the same reason. So when you wrote:

"sit under the teaching of a pastor/teacher?"

Where did that question come from? If it was from God the question should have been about if we are sitting under our Teacher and Lord Jesus Christ - because the Holy Spirit is always glorifying Jesus Christ!!

That is why we find the following verse:

Romans 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;

You question, and I do mean the question you wrote and not some perceived misinterpretation of what you wrote, was about making others your teachers and lords, and not Jesus Christ!!! It is not that God cannot use others in His work, but it is that Jesus Christ is our Lord and Teacher!!

So by looking at what came from you - we can see what is happening in you and who you are hearing from!!!

Now we all have battles inside us with the dark forces of this world, but the man with understanding (our Lord Jesus Christ) will consider what is coming from Him. He will find that sin is working in him, and the Lord also. He will then increase in understanding, but the real increase in understanding is that Jesus Christ is Understanding. Therefore that man turns back to the Lord, because He is Understanding, and again seeks the voice of the Lord and listens.

Whereas the man without Understanding (our Lord Jesus Christ) will not turn back to Him and seek to hear His voice, but instead will just lean on their own understanding. That is because they don't really believe Jesus Christ is there to be heard from, via His Holy Spirit. Therefore Jesus Christ is not their Lord and Teacher! That is why they turn to other men for understanding instead of the Lord, and why they completely miss knowing the Lord and understanding that the Bible was written to get them to actually seek the voice of the Lord! So it is written, that with their ears they barely hear and with their eyes they don't see.

And it gets rather sad seeing how this shows up in people so often:

This is a given. So what is your issue with what I say! all I have said is biblical. Others have taught me and I have taught others and God is the one who proves whether what I speask is true or not.

Again you go back to saying how others have taught you and how you have taught others, but there is absolutely no indication coming from what you write as to you being taught of God!!! You write that what you mention is biblical, but you just fail to miss how I over, and over quoted Scriptures to you proving you wrote, according to the Scriptures. Indeed, you failed to see that God, by using the things that come from your spirit, out our mouth, and are written down are in fact testifying to the problem you have involves you not paying attention to Him. Instead you are seeking the teaching of men and sitting under them, and not Him - just exactly like you wrote!!

Prov 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all your heart And do not lean on your own understanding.

Most Christians badly fail to realize just how often we are leaning on our own understanding as opposed to seek Him and what He says to us.!!

The more you listen to Him the more you realize just how often you don't listen to Him!! The real Christian is more like Paul how wrote:

Rom 7:24 Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this death?

When you get to that point, it starts to become all about trying to seek Jesus Christ and people (including yourself) back to Him and listening to Him. So there become more introspection! More looking at what comes out your mouth! And with that more realization that we are so far off the standard that Jesus Christ set, of saying and doing only what the Father tells Him! Yet with all that also come more understanding of what is going on around us. More awareness that the battle is in us. More understanding that the teaching of men, who are like you, just is not going to get it done!! So less thinking that sitting under other men is the answer! Less thinking that you are the teacher! And more just turning people back to Him to listen to Him!!

 

[mailmandan]

We are saved by faith alone - yet the proof of that faith (your being justified as having faith) is that you are doing works according to what Jesus Christ tells you via His Holy Spirit.

Not there is, or I should say was, a justification needed even to have God listen to us, which is a different thing. Because of our sin a price had to be paid or perhaps we could say a cleansing needed to be done, or you might just say we needed to be forgiven, so that we are made worthy to even be heard by God. Jesus paid that price, cleansed us and intercedes for us, and asked His Father to forgive us. Of course His Father always considers and does what His Son asks, because His Son always considers and does what His Father asks. So the Christ is rightfully called Jesus (God's salvation) Yet His going to the cross is not the proof of your faith. Your listening to the Lord and then doing what He tells you is the proof of you faith and your being justified as having faith!!!

James wrote about this!!!

James 2:14 - 20

What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him?

If a brother or sister is without clothing and in need of daily food, and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and be filled,” and yet you do not give them what is necessary for their body, what use is that?

Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself.

But someone may well say, “You have faith and I have works; show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works.”

You believe that God is one. You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder.

But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless?

If indeed we hear the Lord Jesus Christ by faith, do we not get instructions?
And if instructions, what were those instructions about?
Where that not instructions to help others in some way or another?

Now I have and get many instructions from my Lord who is always with me. Of course I get many instructions everyday from the One called Lord, because He is with me!!! And so the best piece of advice I can give anyone is to listen to my Lord by faith and do what He askes of you!!!

Yes we are saved by faith, yet it is a faith in Jesus Christ the Lord of lords and King of kings, so instructions are given to everyone, if they have any part of His Kingdom.

Yet James found others promoting another type of faith, something James referred to as "that faith", where people said they had faith but it did get them to do things for other people. "That faith" will not save you!! Our faith means hearing the Lord who is love, so you do things, according to what He tells you, to help other people!!

Now let me ask - If you are promoting that a person is saved by faith and justified by faith so that and no works are needed, do you promote hearing from God by faith and that meaning you are going to be doing good works?? That is not what James promoted!!

James 2:24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

So James - and you will note that James wrote Scriptures - that we are justified by works and not by faith alone. So should what we say and write not match up with the Scriptures? So yeah, we are saved by faith but a faith that requires works which justify us!!!!

Perhaps we might need to examine the type of faith that we have?? We do want the type of faith that lead to eternal life and not death, right?


James 2:26 For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.

If indeed you have the Holy Spirit of God you hear from the Lord our God Jesus Christ!! Jesus Christ sends His Holy Spirit with His words to speak to your spirit! (See John 16) And if you are indeed hearing the words of God coming through His Holy Spirit to your spirit; has it not become plainly obvious that He asks you to do things for others because it seems that He indeed loves His creation??

Let me just say that as for me, I have a Lord. He speaks to me and always there to be heard from. He I find Him weird, because His thoughts are not my thoughts. My Lord seems to love His creation, though He tends to hate the things we do because we don't listen to Him. And because I even take a little time each day to listen to Him, I hear Him talking to me via the small voice of His, and that often leads to helping other people in some way or another.

In James 2:14, we read of one who says/claims (key word) he has faith but has no works (to evidence his claim). That is not genuine faith, but a bare profession of faith. So, when James asks, "Can that faith save him?" he is saying nothing against genuine faith, but only against an empty profession of faith/dead faith. So, James does not teach that we are saved "by" works. His concern is to show the reality of the faith professed by the individual (James 2:18) and demonstrate that the faith claimed (James 2:14) by the individual is genuine.

In James 2:19, we see that the demons believe "mental assent" that "there is one God" but they do not believe/have faith in/trust in/reliance in Jesus Christ for salvation. In other words, they do not believe on the Lord Jesus Christ (Acts 16:31) and are not saved. Their trust and reliance is in Satan, as demonstrated by their rebellion in heaven and continuous evil works.

In James 2:20, "faith without works is dead" does not mean that faith is dead until it produces works and then it becomes a living faith, which is like saying that a tree is dead until it produces fruit and then it becomes a living tree. James is simply saying faith that is not accompanied by evidential works demonstrates that it's dead. If someone merely says-claims they have faith but lack resulting evidential works, then they demonstrate that they have an empty profession of faith/dead faith and not genuine faith.

In James 2:24, James is not using the word "justified" here to mean "accounted as righteous" but is shown to be righteous. James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18 and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God. (Romans 4:2-3)

In the Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, the Greek word for justified "dikaioo" #1344 is:

1. to render righteous or such he ought to be
2. to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered
3. to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be

In Matthew 12:37, we read - "For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned." This is because our words (and our works) reveal the condition of our hearts. Words/works will be evidences for, or against a man's being in a state of righteousness.

God is said to have been justified by those who were baptized by John the Baptist (Luke 7:29). This act pronounced or declared God to be righteous. It did not make him righteous. The basis or ground for the pronouncement was the fact that God IS righteous. Notice that the NIV reads, "acknowledged that God's way was right.." The ESV reads, “they declared God just..” This is the "sense" in which God was “justified.” He was shown to be righteous".

Matthew 11:19 "The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Behold, a gluttonous man and a drunkard, a friend of tax-gatherers and sinners!' Yet wisdom is justified/vindicated/shown to be right by her deeds."

In James 2:26, the comparison of the human spirit and faith converges around their modes of operation. The spirit (Greek pneuma) may also be translated "breath." As a breathless body exhibits no indication of life, so fruitless faith exhibits no indication of life. The source of the life in faith is not works; rather, life in faith is the source of works. (Ephesians 2:5-10)

 

[Karl Peters]

In James 2:14, we read of one who says/claims (key word) he has faith but has no works (to evidence his claim). That is not genuine faith, but a bare profession of faith. So, when James asks, "Can that faith save him?" he is saying nothing against genuine faith, but only against an empty profession of faith/dead faith. So, James does not teach that we are saved "by" works. His concern is to show the reality of the faith professed by the individual (James 2:18) and demonstrate that the faith claimed (James 2:14) by the individual is genuine.

In James 2:19, we see that the demons believe "mental assent" that "there is one God" but they do not believe/have faith in/trust in/reliance in Jesus Christ for salvation. In other words, they do not believe on the Lord Jesus Christ (Acts 16:31) and are not saved. Their trust and reliance is in Satan, as demonstrated by their rebellion in heaven and continuous evil works.

In James 2:20, "faith without works is dead" does not mean that faith is dead until it produces works and then it becomes a living faith, which is like saying that a tree is dead until it produces fruit and then it becomes a living tree. James is simply saying faith that is not accompanied by evidential works demonstrates that it's dead. If someone merely says-claims they have faith but lack resulting evidential works, then they demonstrate that they have an empty profession of faith/dead faith and not genuine faith.

In James 2:24, James is not using the word "justified" here to mean "accounted as righteous" but is shown to be righteous. James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18 and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God. (Romans 4:2-3)

In the Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, the Greek word for justified "dikaioo" #1344 is:

1. to render righteous or such he ought to be
2. to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered
3. to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be

In Matthew 12:37, we read - "For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned." This is because our words (and our works) reveal the condition of our hearts. Words/works will be evidences for, or against a man's being in a state of righteousness.

God is said to have been justified by those who were baptized by John the Baptist (Luke 7:29). This act pronounced or declared God to be righteous. It did not make him righteous. The basis or ground for the pronouncement was the fact that God IS righteous. Notice that the NIV reads, "acknowledged that God's way was right.." The ESV reads, “they declared God just..” This is the "sense" in which God was “justified.” He was shown to be righteous".

Matthew 11:19 "The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Behold, a gluttonous man and a drunkard, a friend of tax-gatherers and sinners!' Yet wisdom is justified/vindicated/shown to be right by her deeds."

In James 2:26, the comparison of the human spirit and faith converges around their modes of operation. The spirit (Greek pneuma) may also be translated "breath." As a breathless body exhibits no indication of life, so fruitless faith exhibits no indication of life. The source of the life in faith is not works; rather, life in faith is the source of works. (Ephesians 2:5-10)

Yes - mailmandan - It looks like you have it correct. Of course the verses are all correct and you wrote very little to comment about them, and that mostly information out of the Strong's Concordance, so I am not sure what you point is, but I want to comment on the "For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned. This is especially interesting when combined with

Mat 12:37"For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned.

Which also uses the same Greek word for justified

James 2:24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

Again the word "justified" in both verses comes from the same Greek word - which is explain in the Strong's Concordance.

So neither your works for the Lord nor you words for the Lord make you righteous, as pointed out. But both your works for the Lord and you words for the Lord justify you in the sense - show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous - as explained in the Bible.

What people who do not actually know the Lord fail to realize is that real Christians hear His voice and do and say what He tells them to.

Oh - that does not mean we do and say what we hear from Him perfectly, but it does mean that because we believe in Him we hear from Him who is with us and thus make and effort to do and pass on to others the things we hear from Him. Indeed, the work of God is that all should come to know the Son, so our words and actions correspond with that work!!

Indeed it is why I write things like; "it does mean that because we believe in Him we hear from Him who is with us" - like above!!

You see my purpose and instructions from Him is that I am to help Him get others to seek Him and listen to Him!!

Now we can look at what others write and we should see that same purpose behind what they are doing!!

For example - if Christians are doing a food ministry - somewhere behind that needs to be the purpose of getting people to turn to the Lord and listen to Him!!

If a person is preaching behind the podium at a Christian church - somewhere behind that need to be seen the purpose of getting people to turn to the Lord and listen to Him!!

Yet what do we really see behind many Christian ministries? It is not a purpose to get other people to follow us is it???
We are not out to just glorify ourselves, are we??

If not, then how come when I come to this Christian forum I seem to find so many who do not seem to understand that living the Christian life is living a life walking and talking with Jesus Christ???

So each of us need to consider - are we really about turning people to Jesus Christ and encouraging them to hear the Lord, even on that day called Today?

That is what I am trying to do, as per the instructions given to me by my Lord. Now some 'encouragement' may seem a bit harsher, and some a bit softer. But wheather it is by that carrot of the stick - we need to encourage people to actually seek the voice of the Lord our God, Jesus Christ!

If we are doing that then our works and words both justify us - meaning "
- show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous - as explained in the Bible."

So I like your post mailmandan - even though it did not have many comments. I hope you don't mind added to it.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

I obviously didn't misread it - because I quoted it and pointed out exactly what you wrote!! You wrote it - and I just pointed out to you what you wrote! So it is not my misreading but your understanding of that is going on around you and in you which is the problem!!

It was your conclusions that were wrong of what I wrote.

"sit under the teaching of a pastor/teacher?"

Where did that question come from? If it was from God the question should have been about if we are sitting under our Teacher and Lord Jesus Christ - because the Holy Spirit is always glorifying Jesus Christ!!

Yes and so? what do you make of Eph. 4:

11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;

Pastor teachers are a gift ministry to mature us for the work of the ministry. It does not contradict the fact that Jesus is our ultimate teacher.

the very fact you are trying to teach here shows you want me to believe you as a spiritual teacher.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

You question, and I do mean the question you wrote and not some perceived misinterpretation of what you wrote, was about making others your teachers and lords, and not Jesus Christ!!! It is not that God cannot use others in His work, but it is that Jesus Christ is our Lord and Teacher!!

And I believe that 100% I do not believe in making men my lord but they are teachers to help me learn and apply what I study and learn. It ispart and parcel. It is you overhyping the fact God has given believers teachers into some monstrous thing that is wrong.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Now we all have battles inside us with the dark forces of this world, but the man with understanding (our Lord Jesus Christ) will consider what is coming from Him. He will find that sin is working in him, and the Lord also. He will then increase in understanding, but the real increase in understanding is that Jesus Christ is Understanding. Therefore that man turns back to the Lord, because He is Understanding, and again seeks the voice of the Lord and listens.

Whereas the man without Understanding (our Lord Jesus Christ) will not turn back to Him and seek to hear His voice, but instead will just lean on their own understanding. That is because they don't really believe Jesus Christ is there to be heard from, via His Holy Spirit. Therefore Jesus Christ is not their Lord and Teacher! That is why they turn to other men for understanding instead of the Lord, and why they completely miss knowing the Lord and understanding that the Bible was written to get them to actually seek the voice of the Lord! So it is written, that with their ears they barely hear and with their eyes they don't see.

And it gets rather sad seeing how this shows up in people so often:

And it seems you imply I do not seek the Lord. Another time you write a lie!

Again you go back to saying how others have taught you and how you have taught others, but there is absolutely no indication coming from what you write as to you being taught of God!!! You write that what you mention is biblical, but you just fail to miss how I over, and over quoted Scriptures to you proving you wrote, according to the Scriptures. Indeed, you failed to see that God, by using the things that come from your spirit, out our mouth, and are written down are in fact testifying to the problem you have involves you not paying attention to Him. Instead you are seeking the teaching of men and sitting under them, and not Him - just exactly like you wrote!!

Prov 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all your heart And do not lean on your own understanding.

Most Christians badly fail to realize just how often we are leaning on our own understanding as opposed to seek Him and what He says to us.!!

But you as another want to teach me. so what authority and experience do you have that I should listen to you and not the others that Jesus Christ has put in my life? By writing to me and seeking to instruct me, you make yourself the same kind of person you condemn for listening to.

Prov 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all your heart And do not lean on your own understanding.

I do so this point is asinine

The more you listen to Him the more you realize just how often you don't listen to Him!! The real Christian is more like Paul how wrote:

So I take it you do not listen to Him that much, because you write as if you listen closely to Him! so that means you don't lieten closely to HIm as per your statement.

When you get to that point, it starts to become all about trying to seek Jesus Christ and people (including yourself) back to Him and listening to Him. So there become more introspection! More looking at what comes out your mouth! And with that more realization that we are so far off the standard that Jesus Christ set, of saying and doing only what the Father tells Him! Yet with all that also come more understanding of what is going on around us. More awareness that the battle is in us. More understanding that the teaching of men, who are like you, just is not going to get it done!! So less thinking that sitting under other men is the answer! Less thinking that you are the teacher! And more just turning people back to Him to listen to Him!!

I assume you include yourself in that we you write of. So if you are so far off the standard- why should I listen to you anymore so that teh Pasotors and teachers god has placed in my life?

also as the Apostles are mere men and those that followed, why should we listen to them? How far do you wish to go to disavow listening to men or their writings?

 

[Karl Peters]

It was your conclusions that were wrong of what I wrote.

No - that was not my conclusion - I used what you wrote to show you how you were wrong. You yourself, with what you wrote proved you wrong. I just pointed it out - and how God also points out to us where we are wrong by the very words that are in our own heart and coming out our own mouth - just like the Bible explains!! You just have trouble excepting what is written - that He reproves those He loves (in this case you) and that His words are found in you heart and mouth - and that is the Word of God which we are preaching! So I preached the Word of God as told in the Scriptures and as the authors of the Scriptures like Paul also preach, but you have trouble accepting it. So you don't look take an honest look at what is coming from inside you.

This turns out to be important for all Christians to understand - that the Word is near you, in your heart and mouth.

Therefore if you want to hear what the Lord says, consider what is going on in you, and coming out your mouth, which happens to be also the things you write. My writings are about actually seeking the Lord for ourselves as our Lord and Teacher - and I write that because our Lord Himself talks to me. I find His words in my heart and even coming out my lips - and because of the even in my writings. Which is to say I find that I tell others to seek Him because He is near them, and can be heard by them - because that is what I found when I sought Him - that He was always with me, reproves me, teaches me, and instructs me - but some don't accept that can be so they write that they learn from other people, from the traditions and routines of other men, and they count themselves saved because they say they are Christians because they go to a Christian church, follow a Christian tradition, listen to Christian leaders, learn from Christian teachers, and so forth. Note that in all that they don't actually confess Jesus Christ as Lord, so they are not actually listening to the Words of the Lord which come via the Holy Spirit. That doesn't mean God is not there, but only that they don't open up to Him and let Him lead their life. So, they have not been born again, are not hearing the sound of the wind, and are not accepting the testimony of those hearing the sound of the wind!

If they were they would understand all I wrote about needing to actually hear from our Lord Jesus Christ via the Holy Spirit which who brings His word to our Spirit. They can and do think they are a real Christian and living a Christian life, but they are not. They might even say Jesus Christ is Lord, because they have heard that said and seen it written, but they are not confessing that He is their Lord, because they don't hear from Him, get taught by Him, get instructions from Him, as pointed out.

And this is what this thread is about, is it not?

Living what we preach. Faith alone vs faith with works​

Living what we preach means that we are preaching that the Word of God is near us!! That we find His words in our hearts and mouth. And we live our lives by that believe (faith). So we are not living by what men tells us, as if men bring the Glory of God (the Word of God). But we live by listening to Jesus Christ, who is the Word of God because He has the words of God, and the Holy Spirit brings them to our spirit. Therefore we live through a personal relationship with Jesus Christ, meaning we walk with Him and we talk with Him, and He tells us we are His own. --- We honestly and truly know our Lord Teacher, Instructor, Leader, Lord, and King - So how can we ever write :

Do you belong to a local assembly and sit under the teaching of a pastor/teacher?

I certainly go to a church which has someone called a pastor (in fact they call many people pastors there and they have even more that they call teachers) but I don't sit under them, because I sit under, follow, and know personally Jesus Christ!!!

But you wrote and asked that because you do sit under them and do not know Jesus Christ personally - that is what we find you testifying to in all you write!

Even when you think you don't you do. For example:

So I take it you do not listen to Him that much, because you write as if you listen closely to Him! so that means you don't listen closely to HIm as per your statement.

Look close again at what you wrote! You wrote " I take it..." Thereby showing your judgement and not His judgement. So you are not hearing Him, not leading other or even yourself to Him! And even the rest of that statement, if you really knew Him, also proves you don't listen to Him. The statement (which I made and you responded to was:

"The more you listen to Him the more you realize just how often you don't listen to Him!! The real Christian is more like Paul how wrote:"

If you indeed listened to Him much at all you would, like Paul realize that you don't listen to Him like you should!! Indeed, you would become so much more away how little of your life, even mine, is spent actually listening to Him. But by all you write you prove you don't have that basic understanding that comes from listening to Him. Paul's understanding was:

Rom 7:24 - 25 Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this death? Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh the law of sin.

So Paul the Christian man following Jesus Christ and writing - was a man that saw himself as a "Wretched man" whose mind was trying to do right (and that mean listening to Jesus Christ and doing what He says, right?) and still also understood that He with His flesh the law of sin. Paul had and awareness that he could and did listen to Jesus Christ, but on the other hand also understood that he fell so short of that that he considered himself a
wretched man!

Now compare that to the Pharisee Saul who went on the road to put Christians in jail. That man Saul, who did not know who Jesus Christ was so had to ask 'Who are you Lord' when he heard the Lord's voice, had no awareness of himself being so wrong. And now what are we talking about here and now?

If you knew the Lord you would easily relate to Paul, thinking how sad it is that I don't listen to Him more. I only hear from the Lord about a dozen different times a day. Yet the Pharisee (religious person) cannot see that in themselves because they never hear His voice and don't know who Jesus Christ is even when He is always standing at the door and knocking with His voice!!

Look close at what you write, at what comes out your mouth, at what is coming through your heart!! Are you thinking inside that you are a good righteous man, or are thinking what a wretched man you are so that you need Jesus Christ so that you seek Him, hear from Him (on and off through the day - but not enough)

No - that is not you - you are the one writing - " I take it" and " belong to a local assembly and sit under the teaching of a pastor/teacher"

Yeah - go to a local Christian church - but as the Lord instructs you! But He your Lord is your Teacher and Pastor, and not even those who call themselves teachers and pastors!! That is not to say that I have an issue with them calling themselves what they want, but if they are not listening the The Teacher and The Pastor - then they are not even worthy to be in the front of any Christian congregation at any time! And if they are listening to The Teacher and The Pastor - then they certainly are leading others to sit under Him - not them - right?

So what you missed in the verse - Eph 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; - is "AND HE GAVE SOME" - He did give them who don't listen to Him the right to be "apostles, prophets, evangelist, pastors, and teacher - but they are trying to climb in another way and not through Him!!

Jn 10: 1-4 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who does not enter by the door into the fold of the sheep, but climbs up some other way, he is a thief and a robber. “But he who enters by the door is a shepherd of the sheep. “To him the doorkeeper opens, and the sheep hear his voice, and he calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. “When he puts forth all his own, he goes ahead of them, and the sheep follow him because they know his voice.

Can you not put together the verses in the Bible and realize that not all who claim to be teachers and pastors are??? The Lord is the Teacher and our Pastor and we hear His voice personally! Then He might ask you to personally being a teaching, preaching, and use you to minister to someone - but only and not until you learn to listen to Him so you are part of His body like a hand of His which He instructs personally!!

You cannot even understand that He has been the One telling me to write, to preach, and to tell people to listen to Him!!

 

[Ronald Nolette]

No - that was not my conclusion - I used what you wrote to show you how you were wrong. You yourself, with what you wrote proved you wrong. I just pointed it out - and how God also points out to us where we are wrong by the very words that are in our own heart and coming out our own mouth - just like the Bible explains!! You just have trouble excepting what is written - that He reproves those He loves (in this case you) and that His words are found in you heart and mouth - and that is the Word of God which we are preaching! So I preached the Word of God as told in the Scriptures and as the authors of the Scriptures like Paul also preach, but you have trouble accepting it. So you don't look take an honest look at what is coming from inside you.

Once again you prove yourself wrong. I fully accept the Word of God! I accept that as one who has been made righteous by Jesus alone, I must work the works of rightewousness. If you bothered to get to know me instead of making such glaringly false assumptions, you would know I preach holiness in thought word and deed with a vengeance.

You have proven yourself a false prophet

No - that is not you - you are the one writing - " I take it" and " belong to a local assembly and sit under the teaching of a pastor/teacher"

For that is Scripture according to Ephesians.

But you here are now trying to be a teacher and want me to sit under your authority. why should I abandon the pasotr/teachers in my life now to sit under your counsel.

Look close at what you write, at what comes out your mouth, at what is coming through your heart!! Are you thinking inside that you are a good righteous man, or are thinking what a wretched man you are so that you need Jesus Christ so that you seek Him, hear from Him (on and off through the day - but not enough)

No, I know I am a righteous man, for Jesus is my righteousness as the Scriptures declare! Not of myselkf- but HIM and Him alone

If you indeed listened to Him much at all you would, like Paul realize that you don't listen to Him like you should!! Indeed, you would become so much more away how little of your life, even mine, is spent actually listening to Him. But by all you write you prove you don't have that basic understanding that comes from listening to Him. Paul's understanding was:

None of listen to jesus as we should and that includes you who think yourself so much wiser than most.

Look close again at what you wrote! You wrote " I take it..." Thereby showing your judgement and not His judgement. So you are not hearing Him, not leading other or even yourself to Him! And even the rest of that statement, if you really knew Him, also proves you don't listen to Him. The statement (which I made and you responded to was:

False accusations against a brother is horrific. Do you think you have a hot line to Jesus and He is whispering these things in you rears?

Therefore if you want to hear what the Lord says, consider what is going on in you, and coming out your mouth, which happens to be also the things you write. My writings are about actually seeking the Lord for ourselves as our Lord and Teacher - and I write that because our Lord Himself talks to me. I find His words in my heart and even coming out my lips - and because of the even in my writings. Which is to say I find that I tell others to seek Him because He is near them, and can be heard by them - because that is what I found when I sought Him - that He was always with me, reproves me, teaches me, and instructs me - but some don't accept that can be so they write that they learn from other people, from the traditions and routines of other men, and they count themselves saved because they say they are Christians because they go to a Christian church, follow a Christian tradition, listen to Christian leaders, learn from Christian teachers, and so forth. Note that in all that they don't actually confess Jesus Christ as Lord, so they are not actually listening to the Words of the Lord which come via the Holy Spirit. That doesn't mean God is not there, but only that they don't open up to Him and let Him lead their life. So, they have not been born again, are not hearing the sound of the wind, and are not accepting the testimony of those hearing the sound of the wind!

By writing this you make it appear that the Lord doesn't speak to me. Wrong again. If this were batting practice, you would have struck out by now! I count myself saved because I have trusted in the blood Jesus shed for my sin debt to be the full and only acceptable payment before My Father in heaven.

As to your other scurrilous accusations here in this paragraph, yes I am sure they are certainly true of people sitting in pews. But I do not trust for one iota your ability to judge and discern them . You have proven to be wrong on so many levels so far.

Yeah - go to a local Christian church - but as the Lord instructs you! But He your Lord is your Teacher and Pastor

I have repeatedly told yu I do, but you in your warped bias refuse to listen and choose to make false assumptions in your spiritual haughtiness.

So what you missed in the verse - Eph 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; - is "AND HE GAVE SOME" - He did give them who don't listen to Him the right to be "apostles, prophets, evangelist, pastors, and teacher - but they are trying to climb in another way and not through Him!!

So are you saying because you listen to HIm better than you assume I do, you do not need the church. If you read the restr of that verse you would have seen the reason for these gift ministries are to mature the saints for the work of the ministry.

Are you fully matured, and perfected and no longer need the gift ministries God gave the church? Are you implying you are sinlessly perfect now in thought word and deed?

 

[Karl Peters]

Below are quotes that look great but show a problem soo many have.

I fully accept the Word of God! I accept that as one who has been made righteous by Jesus alone,

Not in the above quote there is a difference made between the Word of God and Jesus! That fact is that Jesus alone is the Word of God!! Indeed "The Word of God is His name!! So the problem is the we don't "fully accept" Jesus Christ as the Word of God!!! Instead we think that leaning on our understanding of Scriptures is 'fully accepting' the Word of God - when the Scriptures were written to lead us to Jesus Christ as the Word of God, meaning we need to listen to Him! If we don't even understand this basic part of Christianity we are not actually Christians at all!

But you here are now trying to be a teacher and want me to sit under your authority.

And in the above quote Ronald still can not understand what I am doing. I am preaching the Word of God and that to mean Jesus Christ - and our needed to sit under Him and listen to Him! That should have been very clear, but if you are saying in you heart that He is not around to be heard from (like far off in heaven to return or maybe still dead and not risen again) then you can not also think that I am truly trying to get you to seek Him, listen to Him, and sit under His feet. If a person doesn't believe in Him they can only conclude that I can not hear Him but am trying to get people to follow me. The problem is they lack faith in Jesus and so don't actually believe He is there to hear from.

None of listen to jesus as we should and that includes you who think yourself so much wiser than most.

Again Ronald misunderstand that I am trying to point Him to Jesus Christ. I am not thinking the I am so much wiser, I am thinking that Jesus Christ our Lord and Teacher is sooooooooooooo much wiser - but Ronald can't understand that because understanding comes from the voice of Lord!

Therefore I know that it is the Lord who gives wisdom (the Holy Spirit) and from His mouth (not mine) come understanding and knowledge. (See Prov 2:6) Because I listen to Him, I understand that it is not me who is wise, not me who is understanding, not me who has the knowledge - but rather God is Wisdom (the Holy Spirit) and God is Understanding (the Son), and God is Knowledge (the Father) - and I try to get myself and others to seek Him and listen.

Anyone who truly listens to the Lord would understand this (know that Wisdom, Understanding, and Knowledge come from God) and thus seek Him and advise others to do the same.

Do you think you have a hot line to Jesus and He is whispering these things in you rears

Of course!!! We have a "hot line" to Jesus via the Holy Spirit!!! And He of course does speaks to our spirit! And if we are not dull of hearing (for lack of belief and practice using our spiritual sense) then the Lords words come to us as words - and that through the Holy Spirit, of course!

So the Christian absolutely thinks (believes) they have a 'hot line' (if you want to call it that) to Jesus Christ! That 'hot line' is called the Holy Spirit!!

So who doesn't understand this? Well - it is the person who does not listen to the voice of the Lord!

Paul told the Galatians that there was only one thing he wanted to know and that was if they received the Spirit by works of the Law or by hearing with faith?

By writing this you make it appear that the Lord doesn't speak to me. Wrong again.

Well the above is wrong!! I know the Lord speaks to you!! That is not what I am explaining at all!! Yet from what you write it becomes clear that you are not seeking His voice and listening to Him!!

Our Lord Jesus Christ is faithful, and His Father gave Him to us. Therefore He is standing there, even now, trying to get you to listen to Him. So it is not a question of if He speaks to you - He does! But the question is whether you are going to believe that He is there speaking to you so that you seek what He has to say to you!! The problem is never His speaking to us, it is always our not listening to Him!! And anyone who does know Him should know this!! Him being there speaking so that we can hear Him by faith is the Good News is a nut shell.

But perhaps we need some reproof first?? And if we don't listen to Him and hear Him, how is He going to get us that reproof? He gave us the Bible, but if we have read it and still don't understand, then what? He sends His angels in heaven, but if we don't listen with our spiritual ears, now what? Well, He still has people who do listen to Him - so He sends them - but they have rejected them also - or why did they not believe what the prophets who wrote the Bible explain?

They wrote to listen to Him, the Spirit says to listen to Him, and I have been telling you to listen to Him - and somehow you concluded that I am thinking that He doesn't speak to you???? Of course He speaks to you - but you are not listening or you would understand what is going on!! The Lord has been me spending way too much time (in my opinion) just trying to get you to listen to Him who is standing there speaking to you!!!! But you mis-understood!!

So understand this:

Rev 3:19 - 22 ‘Those whom I love, I reprove and discipline; therefore be zealous and repent. ‘Behold, I stand at the door and knock; if anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and will dine with him, and he with Me. ‘He who overcomes, I will grant to him to sit down with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne. ‘He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.’”

So are you saying because you listen to HIm better than you assume I do, you do not need the church

Yeah, we don't need the church, but the church needs Him!! And the true church are those who listen to Him!!

We should be able to come together and talk about what He is doing in our lives, saying into our lives, and fellowshipping. That is what the real church should be all about. We can work together, as instructed by Him, also. But we are not sitting under the leadership of the church but the church is supposed to be sitting under the leadership of our Lord Jesus Christ!!!

There is a difference, but if you don't listen to Him how are you going to understand the difference?? And that lack of understanding is going to show up!

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Not in the above quote there is a difference made between the Word of God and Jesus! That fact is that Jesus alone is the Word of God!! Indeed "The Word of God is His name!! So the problem is the we don't "fully accept" Jesus Christ as the Word of God!!! Instead we think that leaning on our understanding of Scriptures is 'fully accepting' the Word of God - when the Scriptures were written to lead us to Jesus Christ as the Word of God, meaning we need to listen to Him! If we don't even understand this basic part of Christianity we are not actually Christians at all!

Well your multiple personality may not accept but I do accept Jesus as the Word of God. The written word is witness to the living Word.

If we don't even understand this basic part of Christianity we are not actually Christians at all!

Sorry but you are wrong. In order to become a Christian one has to confess Jesus as Lord and believe God raised Him from the dead. Period!

And in the above quote Ronald still can not understand what I am doing. I am preaching the Word of God and that to mean Jesus Christ - and our needed to sit under Him and listen to Him! That should have been very clear, but if you are saying in you heart that He is not around to be heard from (like far off in heaven to return or maybe still dead and not risen again) then you can not also think that I am truly trying to get you to seek Him, listen to Him,

Well as I do sit under Him and listen to him (49 years and counting), youur seeking has been answered thank you. YOu still are tring to teach me instead of having Jesus teach me. YOu are doing to me what you condemn in your earlier writings. Why should I sit under your writings here? You are against that!

Well the above is wrong!! I know the Lord speaks to you!! That is not what I am explaining at all!! Yet from what you write it becomes clear that you are not seeking His voice and listening to Him!!

Well your seeing clear is through a glass darkly! and now you have become a liar about me.

He does! But the question is whether you are going to believe that He is there speaking to you so that you seek what He has to say to you!! The problem is never His speaking to us, it is always our not listening to Him!! And anyone who does know Him should know this!! Him being there speaking so that we can hear Him by faith is the Good News is a nut shell.

I do know this and do hear HIm. Why are you implying I don't? You do not even know me and yo0u are pretending to know my soul? That is the height of spiritual arrogance.

But perhaps we need some reproof first?? And if we don't listen to Him and hear Him, how is He going to get us that reproof? He gave us the Bible, but if we have read it and still don't understand, then what? He sends His angels in heaven, but if we don't listen with our spiritual ears, now what? Well, He still has people who do listen to Him - so He sends them - but they have rejected them also - or why did they not believe what the prophets who wrote the Bible explain?

So are you proclaiming you are on the level of Gods Prophets and Apostles?

So understand this:

Rev 3:19 - 22 ‘Those whom I love, I reprove and discipline; therefore be zealous and repent. ‘Behold, I stand at the door and knock; if anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and will dine with him, and he with Me. ‘He who overcomes, I will grant to him to sit down with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne. ‘He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.’”

I have understood for decades- thank you very much!

Yeah, we don't need the church, but the church needs Him!! And the true church are those who listen to Him!!

We should be able to come together and talk about what He is doing in our lives, saying into our lives, and fellowshipping. That is what the real church should be all about. We can work together, as instructed by Him, also. But we are not sitting under the leadership of the church but the church is supposed to be sitting under the leadership of our Lord Jesus Christ!!!

The church has Him! And you need the church far more than you know! God does not use lone ranger Christians who have deluded themselves into thinking they have been given special insight and have risen above the need for the body of christ and His goft ministries of pastor/teachers.

Then to justify your going rogue, you lie and falsely accuse others of not listening to Jesus when they say they sit under a pastor teacher. Or maybe you just have no clue of English language and its usage in euphemisms

We should be able to come together and talk about what He is doing in our lives, saying into our lives, and fellowshipping. That is what the real church should be all about. We can work together, as instructed by Him, also. But we are not sitting under the leadership of the church but the church is supposed to be sitting under the leadership of our Lord Jesus Christ!!!

I am there and doing that thank you!

Of course Jesus is the head! Now you are so condescending.

Hebrews 13:17
Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.

It seems you need to spend more time in Gods Written INspired Word. Because without knowing it, you will never have a living relationship with the Living Word.

2 Timothy 3:15-17

King James Version

​

15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.