Living what we preach. Faith alone vs faith with works

[Ghada]

If we are saved by a faith alone, that is always apart from works, then aren't we preaching a faith, that we don't live by? It would seem logical to say that anyone preaching a saving faith without works, is also preaching a faith, that they separate from how they live. . That would be preaching a gospel that they themselves say they don't live by.

However, that is not necessarily true. They do preach a daily faith to live by. It's just not their saving faith. Even as they separate their saving faith from their works, they also separate their saving faith from their daily faith.

Here is what I am learning about the two main difference between Christian saving faith without works, and Christian justifying faith with works. One is doctrinal and the other is how we live.

The justification by faith without works gospel, separates their saving faith from how they live. Their saving faith stands alone and apart from their daily faith by which they live. They do live daily by their faith, but not by their faith that saves them without any works at all.

The gospel of being justified by our works, preaches saving faith is never separate from how we live. Our saving faith is the same as our living faith. If we are doing the word, we are saved by the word.

It's not fair to say that the saving faith alone teachers, separate works from their daily faith. They preach a daily faith of works, but it is separate from their saving faith. They separate their saving faith by which they are saved alone, from their daily faith by which they live.

It's also not fair to say that the justified by works teachers, separate their works from their faith. They preach a saving daily faith of works, that is the same as their saving faith. They do not separate their saving faith from their daily faith by which they live.

At this point, it appears only doctrinal, however, the difference continues in how they do live by their faith.

The faith alone preachers preach a daily faith with sinning. Their lives are exhorted to be less and less sinful with growth, but they are never living any day without sinning.

The faith with works preachers preach a daily faith without sinning. Their lives are a growth in holy blamelessness, where they ought not be sinning.

The one preaches a gospel by daily faith, that is their saving faith, and that believes it is possible not to be sinning in this life, and walk as Jesus walked.

The other however preaches a gospel of daily faith, that is separate from their saving faith, that does not believe it is possible to go and sin no more and walk as Jesus walked.

And so,l the one preaches a saving faith with justification by works, that are not sinful at all as before, and the other preaches a saving faith separate from their daily living, that is still always sinful, but less than before.

Both do preach living by their daily faith, so that there is no hypocrisy. One preaches less sinful living by their Christian faith, and the other preaches no sinful living by their Christian faith.

The only question is which one does the Bible preach as the saving and justifying faith of Jesus.

She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.

Another difference between the gospel of saving faith alone without works, is that by faith alone no man is ever wholly washed clean as newborn babes, so that they can go and sin no more, even as Jesus did from His youth up.

Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;

The gospel of saving faith with works preaches, that man can indeed go and sin no more, because the new birth of Christ is to be made completely and wholly clean, with all things now being of God, and nothing being of the devil. Even as any innocent newborn babe coming into the world and lightened by Christ. (John 1)

 

[mailmandan]

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Who is teaching a literal "faith alone" doctrine

I keep hearing it attacked. But I know no one who actually teaches it (at lease as you present it)

 

[MatthewG]

@Ghada if you plan on teaching or desire to teach my best guess is to introduce the word by going chapter by chapter and verse by verse.

Cause just these summaries arent always gonna be the best. People will just give you a tough time, and that is okay. People are people, but that would be my encouragement, i decide to take some time and do a study on James, the LORD guides and i may not be right on everything.

Faith and works go together.
And God is gonna reward faithless people and faithful people.

Faith without works is dead.

If you have someone come up to and treat you (ill mannered), and you treat them back in the same way, the faith professed is dead.

If you have someone who is poor come to you, but you look to the rich and say come here and sit at the head of the table, and you in your mind look down on the poor. That faith is dead.

People exlcude verses just to fit what they need and been taught to complete a (certain tradition or doctrine) which is nothing new, cause there is nothing new under the sun.

If you have a person ill treat you, and you bestow a blessing back to that person that is allowing Gods good works to be done through you by the spirit.

And at the end of life people are gonna be judge and rewarded not based on their fleshly works but the works they allowe God to have in their life and their trust and faith in Jesus.

All the best, from a simply mindless person,
Matthew

 

[mailmandan]

Who is teaching a literal "faith alone" doctrine

I keep hearing it attacked. But I know no one who actually teaches it (at lease as you present it)

Faith (rightly understood) IN CHRIST ALONE saves (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9) which is not to be confused with an empty profession of faith/dead faith that merely claims to be genuine, but demonstrates by the lack of works that it's dead. (James 2:14-24)

 

[Karl Peters]

Real faith in Jesus Christ means you are going to do some things He asks you to do - simply because you hear Him by faith and as the Lord of lords, he askes you to do things!! Like this morning He again asked me to come a post on this forum (which He hasn't done for awhile now)

So I am posting this morning only because He asked me to do it!!

However there are works done in His name when someone has never heard His voice telling them to do anything; much less what they are doing or saying!!

That is called leaning on your own understanding, and is often referred to as trying to get to heaven by your own good works!! That may seem like acting out of a "Christian" faith, but it is not!! A real Christian hears the voice of the Lord and believes it is the Lord and takes actions based upon that belief!!


This really isn't that hard to understand - unless a person doesn't hear from and thus know Jesus Christ as their Lord!!

And it is certainly not something to get offended about, unless inside you are the person not actually hearing from the Lord!

So the real problem in the OP is seem in the question it askes - which is:

The only question is which one does the Bible preach as the saving and justifying faith of Jesus.

That question is presumptuous! Which is it fails to understand what the Bible is explaining!

We are saved by faith in Jesus Christ and not by works!

Tm 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost

However faith in Jesus Christ means hearing from Him who we know as our Lord, so works are done!

James 2:22 You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected;

So there are people who say they believe in Jesus Christ, but they don't hear from Him and don't do anything for Him - so they don't believe in Him!

And then there are people who do "Christian" works, but they don't hear from Him either - so they don't believe in Him!

And then there are His sheep who do hear from Jesus Christ and know Him as their Lord, meaning they are going to do some of the things that He tells them. That is to say they believe in Jesus Christ, listen to Him as their Lord, and thus wind up doing things for Him. That is what the Bible tells us. It is what James was getting at. It is what Paul was getting at. It is what all the authors or the Bible were getting at!!

So the question in the Bible is always whether you are hearing Jesus Christ by faith or not!! It is not about works are all!!!!!!!!!!

If you know the Lord you will do works because you know Him, but it is not about those works. Doing what He tells you does justify you but who cares??? And doing works based upon your understanding of faith instead of your hearing Him will not justify you, but who cares???

I tell you who cares!!! You will care!! If you are doing things because He told you; you will know it and care about Him who told you! But if you are not doing things He tells you, then you will know it and that you don't care about Him! And if you are doing things because you think that being a Christian is the right thing to do, then you will know that too but you might not understand that leaning on your own understanding is not getting you to heaven because you still don't actually know Him and believe in Him. You are deceiving yourself!!

So to the other question asked at the beginning of the OP:

If we are saved by a faith alone, that is always apart from works, then aren't we preaching a faith, that we don't live by?

It is a poorly worded question, to be sure - but saying we are saved by faith alone is correct!!! We are saved by faith alone!! However the faith we are talking about is a faith in Jesus Christ as our Lord who speaks to us and instructs us!! The question itself seems to lack that understanding!!! So it seems the author of the OP seems to lack that understanding!!

The fact is that we are saved by our faith in Jesus Christ alone - however that kind of faith results in works because if a person believes in the Lord or lords, and King of kings they are obviously going to get instructions because He is Lord!! That is what a Lord does - He give instructions that you follow at least at times because you believe in Him and hear Him!! So we are justified as being under the Lord because we doing things He tells us, but we are not saved for that reason, only justified for that reason!!! So we are not preaching that works save you - as the question seems to imply.

We don't even live by works!! Do we not even understand that?? Have we not read that we are to live by every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God???

So the real Christian lives their life by talking back and forth with their Lord Jesus Christ!!! That alone saves you and is how you are to live the Christian life. Of course that also winds up meaning you are going to be doing a few things your Lord asks you to do!

Of course are real Christian would know that - so who doesn't know this???

We are saved by faith alone - but that means we wind up being justified because we do things our Lord askes us! Therefore we don't ask the questions we see in the OP. We instead are the ones actually living but the faith we preach!! We are listening to Him!! We do know Him!! So we do things He askes us - like in this case for me I post things when He askes me. Yet the posting didn't save me, my knowing Him and believing in Him who name is called "The Word of God", saves me - meaning Jesus Christ is my savior, because Jesus Christ is the Word of God - that is His Name!

The author of the OP seems to have badly misunderstood what James was saying - look closer at this verse:

Jas 2:14 What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him?

I underlined "that faith"!! That faith is not faith in Jesus Christ!!! And the author of the OP has confused "that faith" with faith in Jesus Christ are our Lord!!!

That faith is not faith in Jesus Christ our Lord!! That faith is faith in your own understanding!! So that faith will not save you!! And that faith is the faith being thought of in the OP. It should not be confused with our faith in Jesus Christ which means hearing that small voice of the Spirit of our Lord speaking to our spirit and that we instructions which we do, or at least want to do, so that we do them as we can. So that the Word of God we preach is found in our hearts and sometime coming out our mouth, so that we confess Jesus Christ as our Lord, meaning we get instructions from Him!!

Romans 10: 8,9 But what does it say? “THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART”—that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;

People - if you don't want to listen to Him, it will show up, and that faith will not save you!!! If you do want to listen to Him you will seek Him, find Him, know Jesus as Lord, and faith in Jesus Christ will save you!!!

Salvation was never about works; it was always about believing in Jesus Christ!!!! It is just that knowing Jesus Christ means knowing the Lord and that means you are going to wind up doing things that He asks, because you will hear His voice speaking to you in words from His Holy Spirit being you His instructions to your spirit.

This if of course is a long version of what we read in the Bible. If a person indeed listens to the Lord they know this, but if they don't seek Him how will they ever understand? Abram was saved by faith - it is just that knowing the Lord meant Abram did things he was instructed.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Another difference between the gospel of saving faith alone without works, is that by faith alone no man is ever wholly washed clean as newborn babes, so that they can go and sin no more, even as Jesus did from His youth up.

With statements like this you are perilously close to becoming an enemy of Jesus!

We are saved by grace apart from works. that is SCripture! anything else is another gospel and brings anathema on ones self.

Good works follow being saved by faith alone through grace.

 

[Rockerduck]

I wish people would stop quoting James 2:20 without the rest of the following verses. James 21-24 - Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? 23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” And he was called the friend of God. 24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.

Notice it was Jehovah who told Abraham to offer his son. God leads us along where we need to be and where to go. Jesus is the vine, we are the branches.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

I wish people would stop quoting James 2:20 without the rest of the following verses. James 21-24 - Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? 23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” And he was called the friend of God. 24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.

Notice it was Jehovah who told Abraham to offer his son. God leads us along where we need to be and where to go. Jesus is the vine, we are the branches.

Works prove our faith is valid, but faith in teh finished work of Jesus alone at the cross and the empty tomb is what saves us.

 

[Karl Peters]

With statements like this you are perilously close to becoming an enemy of Jesus!

We are saved by grace apart from works. that is SCripture! anything else is another gospel and brings anathema on ones self.

Good works follow being saved by faith alone through grace.

YES

SO RIGHT!!!

I just find it amazing that anyone could really know the Lord and not come to know that our salvation is not based on works, yet at the same time we do hear instructions from Him that mean we do something for Him, and that usually means helping others in some way.

That is what is meant by being saved by faith but justified by works. We were saved the instant we started believing, thanks to His grace (unmerited favor). Yet it shows up later in the works we do because we believe in the Lord (the One who gives instructions).

 

[Ronald Nolette]

YES

SO RIGHT!!!

I just find it amazing that anyone could really know the Lord and not come to know that our salvation is not based on works, yet at the same time we do hear instructions from Him that mean we do something for Him, and that usually means helping others in some way.

That is what is meant by being saved by faith but justified by works. We were saved the instant we started believing, thanks to His grace (unmerited favor). Yet it shows up later in the works we do because we believe in the Lord (the One who gives instructions).

Romans 5

King James Version

​

5 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

We are justified also by faith alone in the finished work of Jesus.

Our santification gorws as we grow in good works that as Paul said in Eph. 2 were foreordained we should walk in.

 

[Karl Peters]

Romans 5​

​

King James Version​

​

​

5 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

We are justified also by faith alone in the finished work of Jesus.

Our santification gorws as we grow in good works that as Paul said in Eph. 2 were foreordained we should walk in.

James 2:24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

Your conclusion is wrong as the above verse shows!!!

All verse match what God is doing, but understanding comes from His voice - not our own interpretation! So the problem is the interpretation!

Now faith results in works - meaning that if you believe in the Lord you do things He asks of you - simply because He is always with you and He is the Lord. So hearing Him by faith means getting instructions and doing them. It is not actually the doing the works, but the faith in Him, but they go together. You don't believe in Him if you are not hearing Him, because faith comes from hearing Him (Rom 10)

Rom 10:17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.

So the "finished works" as you phrase it, is us hearing form the Lord Jesus Christ by faith - and if He is our Lord we get instructions from Him and do them - at least as any person gets instructions and does them - meaning not perfect but there is an effort or He is not our Lord. Of did you fail to actually notice "through our Lord Jesus Christ" in the verse you quoted, and realize what Him being Lord meant????

Paul, included Jesus Christ as Lord because faith in Him means you get instructions that you do from Him!!!!!!!

Yet many say the have faith in Jesus Christ our Lord, but that is shown to be wrong because they don't do anything for Him!!! So that type of faith, a faith without works does not justify them - which James explained because He found people like that!!!!

For anyone who truly knows Jesus Christ and listens to Him by faith, this is a very simply thing to understand!! It is easy to understand because as a person who knows the Lord personally, you do hear Jesus Christ our Lord, via the Holy Spirit, and that by fiath. And that hearing means you do get instructions from Him. And since you believe He is the Lord, even your Lord, you put some effort into doing what He askes. So you faith in Him results in works that you do for Him. Therefore you don't have a problem with what Paul wrote:

Rom 5:1 Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,

Because Paul included Jesus Christ as Lord - meaning Paul understood that Jesus Christ was Lord

But you would have problem with someone writing: "We are justified also by faith alone" because there is no indications that Jesus Christ is Lord, meaning that He is the One who gives the true believer instructions that they do!!

Now you would not have a problem with someone saying we are saved by faith alone, because our salvation is based upon our faith and not even whether we did in fact do everything the Lord tells us to do. Of course if you never did anything the Lord tells you, then that type of faith will not save you, as James pointed out. But the key to saying that is in "the Lord tells you", meaning that the key is in the hearing by faith not is the works you do.

To the believer this is easy to understand, for the non-believers and even the pretending to believe person this is impossible to them to understand - and the reason is very simple also. They don't understand simply because they don't hear from Him and understanding comes from hearing Him!!

Prov 2:6 For the LORD gives wisdom; From His mouth come knowledge and understanding.

The Lord sends us His Holy Spirit with His words which are the words of His Father. So to even have understanding on this very simple thing, it requires hearing His words which come via the Holy Spirit. Your leaning on your own understanding will not do!

Both what Paul wrote and what James wrote are both correct, but what you concluded is not correct.

We are indeed saved by faith alone, but that faith is in Jesus Christ our Lord, but He is not your Lord if you do not do what He says (works that the Lord tells you to do) and that type of faith will not save you, because it is not faith in Jesus Christ the Lord!!

Now this silly conversation goes on too often, and is the type of confusion brought on by the devil. The devil will tell a person something like - "You believe so you don't have to do anything." So people want to say they are saved and justified by their faith alone. So they say they believe in Jesus Christ and even 'The Lord Jesus Christ' but they don't listen to Him, so that type of faith does not save them!!

So even in the Old Testament we read about this problem!

Is 30:1 “Woe to the rebellious children,” declares the LORD,
“Who execute a plan, but not Mine,
And make an alliance, but not of My Spirit,
In order to add sin to sin;

and
Is 30: 9 For this is a rebellious people, false sons,
Sons who refuse to listen
To the instruction of the LORD;

So the hearing by faith has always been the problem!! Which is why Paul wrote:

Gal 3:2 This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith?

When Paul writes that hearing with faith is the only thing he wants to find out; he means that is what you need to find out about yourself!!

If in fact you are hearing from Him by faith, then you are getting instructions, teachings, wisdom, understanding, encouragement, and sooo much more from Him - like life.

But if you are not hearing from Him you are pretending obedience, are not executing His plan but yours, and that is an alliance, but not of His Spirit. You may be doing works, like the Pharisees did works - but not works based on faith in Him as your Lord!!

To the true believer that faith alone saves them, but the faith in Him who is Lord of lords also means getting instructions from Him.

For example - I had my plans this morning and my plan, like most mornings, meant working on my business to make more money. Still I talked to Him and listened, and this morning He wanted me posting again. So I had better finish with the verse He gave me:

Mat 16:24 Then Jesus said to His disciples, “If anyone wishes to come after Me, he must deny himself, and take up his cross and follow Me.

To deny yourself and follow Him means hearing Him by faith and doing what He asks and not what you want - that means works according to what He says. The faith in Him saves you but it means following Him and His plan/instructions not yours!! Therefore you are not justified by faith alone like you wrote, but by faith in Him you are saved and justified by doing what He says.

Oh - He just now asked me to add this verse also:

Mat 12:50 “For whoever does the will of My Father who is in heaven, he is My brother and sister and mother.”

Do you still not understand that it is necessary to do the will of God; meaning listening to One whose name is called the Word of God. That is what faith in Him means!!! If you are not doing His will because you are not listening to Him then you neither have faith in Him nor are following Him! You are neither saved nor justified!!

 

[Ronald Nolette]

James 2:24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

Your conclusion is wrong as the above verse shows!!!

All verse match what God is doing, but understanding comes from His voice - not our own interpretation! So the problem is the interpretation!

Now faith results in works - meaning that if you believe in the Lord you do things He asks of you - simply because He is always with you and He is the Lord. So hearing Him by faith means getting instructions and doing them. It is not actually the doing the works, but the faith in Him, but they go together. You don't believe in Him if you are not hearing Him, because faith comes from hearing Him (Rom 10)

Rom 10:17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.

So the "finished works" as you phrase it, is us hearing form the Lord Jesus Christ by faith - and if He is our Lord we get instructions from Him and do them - at least as any person gets instructions and does them - meaning not perfect but there is an effort or He is not our Lord. Of did you fail to actually notice "through our Lord Jesus Christ" in the verse you quoted, and realize what Him being Lord meant????

Paul, included Jesus Christ as Lord because faith in Him means you get instructions that you do from Him!!!!!!!

Yet many say the have faith in Jesus Christ our Lord, but that is shown to be wrong because they don't do anything for Him!!! So that type of faith, a faith without works does not justify them - which James explained because He found people like that!!!!

For anyone who truly knows Jesus Christ and listens to Him by faith, this is a very simply thing to understand!! It is easy to understand because as a person who knows the Lord personally, you do hear Jesus Christ our Lord, via the Holy Spirit, and that by fiath. And that hearing means you do get instructions from Him. And since you believe He is the Lord, even your Lord, you put some effort into doing what He askes. So you faith in Him results in works that you do for Him. Therefore you don't have a problem with what Paul wrote:

Rom 5:1 Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,

Because Paul included Jesus Christ as Lord - meaning Paul understood that Jesus Christ was Lord

But you would have problem with someone writing: "We are justified also by faith alone" because there is no indications that Jesus Christ is Lord, meaning that He is the One who gives the true believer instructions that they do!!

Now you would not have a problem with someone saying we are saved by faith alone, because our salvation is based upon our faith and not even whether we did in fact do everything the Lord tells us to do. Of course if you never did anything the Lord tells you, then that type of faith will not save you, as James pointed out. But the key to saying that is in "the Lord tells you", meaning that the key is in the hearing by faith not is the works you do.

To the believer this is easy to understand, for the non-believers and even the pretending to believe person this is impossible to them to understand - and the reason is very simple also. They don't understand simply because they don't hear from Him and understanding comes from hearing Him!!

Prov 2:6 For the LORD gives wisdom; From His mouth come knowledge and understanding.

The Lord sends us His Holy Spirit with His words which are the words of His Father. So to even have understanding on this very simple thing, it requires hearing His words which come via the Holy Spirit. Your leaning on your own understanding will not do!

Both what Paul wrote and what James wrote are both correct, but what you concluded is not correct.

We are indeed saved by faith alone, but that faith is in Jesus Christ our Lord, but He is not your Lord if you do not do what He says (works that the Lord tells you to do) and that type of faith will not save you, because it is not faith in Jesus Christ the Lord!!

Now this silly conversation goes on too often, and is the type of confusion brought on by the devil. The devil will tell a person something like - "You believe so you don't have to do anything." So people want to say they are saved and justified by their faith alone. So they say they believe in Jesus Christ and even 'The Lord Jesus Christ' but they don't listen to Him, so that type of faith does not save them!!

So even in the Old Testament we read about this problem!

Is 30:1 “Woe to the rebellious children,” declares the LORD,
“Who execute a plan, but not Mine,
And make an alliance, but not of My Spirit,
In order to add sin to sin;

and
Is 30: 9 For this is a rebellious people, false sons,
Sons who refuse to listen
To the instruction of the LORD;

So the hearing by faith has always been the problem!! Which is why Paul wrote:

Gal 3:2 This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith?

When Paul writes that hearing with faith is the only thing he wants to find out; he means that is what you need to find out about yourself!!

If in fact you are hearing from Him by faith, then you are getting instructions, teachings, wisdom, understanding, encouragement, and sooo much more from Him - like life.

But if you are not hearing from Him you are pretending obedience, are not executing His plan but yours, and that is an alliance, but not of His Spirit. You may be doing works, like the Pharisees did works - but not works based on faith in Him as your Lord!!

To the true believer that faith alone saves them, but the faith in Him who is Lord of lords also means getting instructions from Him.

For example - I had my plans this morning and my plan, like most mornings, meant working on my business to make more money. Still I talked to Him and listened, and this morning He wanted me posting again. So I had better finish with the verse He gave me:

Mat 16:24 Then Jesus said to His disciples, “If anyone wishes to come after Me, he must deny himself, and take up his cross and follow Me.

To deny yourself and follow Him means hearing Him by faith and doing what He asks and not what you want - that means works according to what He says. The faith in Him saves you but it means following Him and His plan/instructions not yours!! Therefore you are not justified by faith alone like you wrote, but by faith in Him you are saved and justified by doing what He says.

Oh - He just now asked me to add this verse also:

Mat 12:50 “For whoever does the will of My Father who is in heaven, he is My brother and sister and mother.”

Do you still not understand that it is necessary to do the will of God; meaning listening to One whose name is called the Word of God. That is what faith in Him means!!! If you are not doing His will because you are not listening to Him then you neither have faith in Him nor are following Him! You are neither saved nor justified!!

Everything you said I agree with.

Faith results in good works, but works play no part in salvation.

Now you have a serious problem.

Romans 5:1

King James Version

​

5 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

Romans 4

King James Version

​

4 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

In you rline of argument- you say Paul is lying or is not talking about being justified.

I accept both James and Paul and understand that each is speaking of a different issue.

Paul is speaking of faith saving us without any works, and James is speaking of works proving or validating our justification. Works do not render us just, but faith renders us just and then produce the works that show we are just.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Do you still not understand that it is necessary to do the will of God; meaning listening to One whose name is called the Word of God. That is what faith in Him means!!! If you are not doing His will because you are not listening to Him then you neither have faith in Him nor are following Him! You are neither saved nor justified!!

I have understood and been doing the will of God (not perfectly) for nigh on 50 years now. So your assumption is both inane but presumptious.

We are indeed saved by faith alone, but that faith is in Jesus Christ our Lord, but He is not your Lord if you do not do what He says (works that the Lord tells you to do) and that type of faith will not save you, because it is not faith in Jesus Christ the Lord!!

Wrong! Jesus is Lord whether one is obedient or not. He is Lord of all.

I do not know how many times I have to write that works are commanded of the believer. Frankly, you and others assumptions that I do not believe in good works after all this time is insulting and makes me feel you have a problem with reading or comprehension.

 

[Karl Peters]

Everything you said I agree with.

Faith results in good works, but works play no part in salvation.

Now you have a serious problem.

Romans 5:1​

​

King James Version​

​

​

5 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

Romans 4​

​

King James Version​

​

​

4 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

In you rline of argument- you say Paul is lying or is not talking about being justified.

I accept both James and Paul and understand that each is speaking of a different issue.

Paul is speaking of faith saving us without any works, and James is speaking of works proving or validating our justification. Works do not render us just, but faith renders us just and then produce the works that show we are just.

We are justified also by faith alone in the finished work of Jesus.

Faith results in good works, but works play no part in salvation.

Now you have a serious problem.

Romans 5:1​

​

King James Version​

​

5 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

Romans 4​

​

King James Version​

​

4 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

Maybe you are missing what you wrote and the scripture that proved you wrong??

You wrote:

We are justified also by faith alone in the finished work of Jesus.

Yet we read :

James 2:24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

M So you do not match up with what James wrote which is Scriptures!!!!

How did you miss this and get it wrong?????

The main reason is that you didn't seek the Lord on this!!

Yes we are saved by faith alone!! Buy we are not justified by faith alone!!!!!!!!!

Does that mean we lean on our own understanding for what works to do? NO!!

It means that if we have faith we listen to the Lord and do what He tells us to do. And unless you are listening to the Lord and doing what He tells you to do, your works are not "GOOD WORKS" - because only God is good!! So we are justified by listen to the Lord and also doing what He tells us!!! So not justified by faith alone!!! Saved by faith alone, yes, but not justified by faith alone!! And that is what James wrote!! If your understanding does not match up with all the Scriptures, you need to seek the voice of the Lord for better understanding!!

So what happens when you read 2 scriptures and one reads:
2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
and the other reads
James 2:24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

The answer is that you need to seek the Lord and He will explain to you that even Abramham doing the works that he thought was right does not mean Abraham was justified, However the works that Abramham did because the Lord told him to do (that is the works from hearing by faith) did justify him. Those works proved that Abramhan was listening to the Lord.

So when you wrote " Faith results in good works, but works play no part in salvation." you are right in that the good works (works done by hearing with faith) plays no part in salvation, but wrong to say that they play no part in justification!!

Now if you listen to Him you would also get an explanation about different things being justified and the meaning of justification.

You will find out that we, any of us, get justified for many things in our lives and to different people. That is to say being justified mean you are proven 'right' or to say it another way, you are proven to be just and morally right:

meaning of "Just" based on or behaving according to what is morally right and fair: "a just and democratic society" · "fighting for a just cause"

Now Jesus Christ, by His going to the cross and forgiving us has justified us before God. So we can go to God via Jesus Christ and hear what God has to say to us.

Still to prove that we do that also requires action based upon hearing the Lord.

Which explains why we read:

Mat 12:50 “For whoever does the will of My Father who is in heaven, he is My brother and sister and mother.”

There is then required action: doing the "will of His Father who is in heaven" and not just hearing by faith! The action then proves (justifies) that we are hearing Him and believing His is our Lord!!!

This is why what James wrote: James 2:24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

and what you wrote, "We are justified also by faith alone" is wrong.

And again, what amazes me it that you don't seem to understand this!!

Is is not obvious that when you listen to Jesus Christ (God's Salvation) you realize that He loves you and saves you, but at the same time is it not also obvious that He gives you instructions as your Lord which you do because you believe Him to be the Lord!!!

Those two things should be obvious to any real believer, who listens to the Lord by faith!! So how can that real believer not understand that we are not justified by faith alone??? Our faith caused us to listen to Jesus Christ as our Lord and the listening to the Lord resulted in GOOD WORKS and the doing them proves (justifies us) that we were listening to Him!! So justified by faith alone - of course not!! Yeah - justified because of faith but a faith that results in doing GOOD WORKS (works that He who alone if good told us to do) as opposed to works from our own understanding!!

 

[Karl Peters]

Over and over we just make it too hard - too religious - too much leaning on our understanding!!

Christianity it just as simple as seeking Jesus Christ and listening to what He says. That is what is if meant by following Jesus! It take a little bit of faith to believe He is there and start seeking Him, but when you do you find out that He is there for you. It might take practice seeking and listening over and over regularly to increase your faith that He is indeed always there for you. Yet that is what it means to be "Living what we preach"!!

That faith to seek Him and listen to Him means you get Jesus (God's Salvation) - so we are saved by that faith and that faith alone. Yet if you do seek Him and listen to Him you are going to get instructions from Him which is why He is called "The Lord"! And if you do believe He is the Lord, you are going to do those things He asks - not perfectly because we/you are just a person and are not perfect, but if you are not doing things because He told you then you are not listening to Him - period!!

Of course not everything you do is because you heard from Him, but since He is always with you, you should be hearing and getting instructions from Him everyday called TODAY. And because He is always with you, then as you get closer to Him the more you will do things because He told you, even down to the steps you take and when you turn to the right of to the left - at least at times!

Therefore your salvation (your relationship with Jesus) comes with Good Works!! But only God is Good, so "Good Works" are not what you think but what He thinks and tells you to do.

Therefore we are saved by faith alone, but live a life of faith with works!!

And that means the title of the thread is wrong!! It is not "Faith Alone verses Faith with Works"!!!! It is simply a life of faith in Jesus Christ!!

So who promotes this argument of "Faith Alone vs Faith with Works"?

Can you not even see and recognize the work of the devil when it in right in front of you???

You are saved by faith in Jesus Christ our Lord, but that means you believe He is with you and so you listen to Him and His instructions to you!!! So you are saved by Faith Alone and that means you do works according to His instructions!!

Therefore if you are doing works but not hearing Him you are not saved because you don't have faith in Him!
And therefore if you are not doing works because He told you then you are not saved because you don't have faith in Him!
And therefore is you are about "Faith Alone verses Fatih with Works" you are not saved because you also don't have faith in Him!

The person who is saved by faith in Him alone, does the works He tells them to do - or at least that is what they are out to do - meaning they seek Him and listen to Him and believe He is Lord so they want to do what He tells them to do. His sheep hear His voice and that voice often has instructions, which is why we call Jesus Christ our Lord!

 

[Gottservant]

I think that when people preach "saved by grace and not by works", they do the righteous thing by the inspiration they have been given - but they fail to the child-like thing of presenting it in a way that mirrors God's inspiration, nor do they welcome Jesus' inspiration to take over where their inspiration proves too rule bound, like that of the Pharisees and Sadducees.

Jesus commanded that we do these things - it bears reminding that He will spit us out, if we don't!

The point is "saved by grace and not by works" is righteous, to begin with, we just need to be better at where we go from there.

 

[Karl Peters]

I think that when people preach "saved by grace and not by works", they do the righteous thing by the inspiration they have been given - but they fail to the child-like thing of presenting it in a way that mirrors God's inspiration, nor do they welcome Jesus' inspiration to take over where their inspiration proves too rule bound, like that of the Pharisees and Sadducees.

Jesus commanded that we do these things - it bears reminding that He will spit us out, if we don't!

The point is "saved by grace and not by works" is righteous, to begin with, we just need to be better at where we go from there.

We preach/proclaim Jesus Christ and His Kingdom!!!

Failure to understand that is why we get things wrong!!

Now the church is to edify - which mean teach in religious matters - so we might teach how because of His grace and mercy we are able to be saved, but we are preaching that He is!!! That we can talk to Him, get to know Him, and through Him we know God and can be saved and that into the Kingdom of God of which He is the King of that Kingdom per the wishes of His Father.

So do a little bible study about what and who we preach and you will find we preach The Word of God, who is Him, and we preach the Kingdom of God of which He is the King, and we preach the Good News, which is that we can get into the Kingdom of God for all eternity through Him!

That of course is made possible because of His grace (unmerrited favor), but in saying that we say His grace!! Thereby it is not grace but His grace!! He didn't have to pray "Father forgive them" at the cross, but He did. By just saying that we are 'saved by grace" you have left Him out of the equation!! So you are not preaching what we are supposed to be preaching!! You are not actually pointing people to Him, Jesus Christ the King! You are not telling people to listen to Him and do what He says!!

If indeed you are going to serve Him, then you must know Him, and know Him as your Lord who gives you instructions!! So a servant of His, like the angels in heaven, tell other about Him and Him as Jesus Christ our Lord meaning (God's salvation is our Lord!)

So whether you realize it or not, and apparently not, you a preaching a gospel that does not include Him as our Lord!!!

That can be a problem:

1 Cor 12:3 Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God says, “Jesus is accursed”; and no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit

The devil can be very trick. A slight change in the presentation of the gospel and before we know it Jesus Christ is excluded!!
Yet we all battle with the dark spiritual force in this world, and it is not easy seeing their tricks and twists! Therefore we need to keep turning to Jesus Christ as our King and Lord and listening to Him!! And saying that is preaching the King and who is over the Kingdom of God, and indeed all things but not all things submit to Him and listen to Him, like the angels in heaven do. We are learning this, right?

 

[Eternally Grateful]

I think that when people preach "saved by grace and not by works", they do the righteous thing by the inspiration they have been given - but they fail to the child-like thing of presenting it in a way that mirrors God's inspiration, nor do they welcome Jesus' inspiration to take over where their inspiration proves too rule bound, like that of the Pharisees and Sadducees.

Jesus commanded that we do these things - it bears reminding that He will spit us out, if we don't!

The point is "saved by grace and not by works" is righteous, to begin with, we just need to be better at where we go from there.

I think we are saved by GRACE through faith and not by works is the gospel

What we receive is a new birth, we are made a new creature old things have passed away all things have become new

One does not have to teach a new believer to do works. it is their new nature. and it will soon become their new practice as the things they liked before are now poison to them.. which is why they can not continue in sin.

so when one start preaching works. it should be a red flag to everyone, and we should get to the bottom of why they are teaching works.

 

[mailmandan]

Man is saved through faith and not by works (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9); yet genuine faith is (evidenced) by works. (James 2:14-24)

*Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption "alone" and not based on the merits of our works.*

It is through faith "in Christ alone" (and not based on the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 3:24-28; 5:1; 5:9); yet the faith that justifies does not remain alone (unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine. (James 2:14-24) *Perfect Harmony*

Man is saved through faith in Christ alone (apart from the merit of works) yet authentic faith does not remain alone (apart from the presence of works). This is not hard to understand. It's just hard for people who embrace salvation by faith + works to ACCEPT.