Looking for advice: Can women be pastors

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OzSpen

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No place in the 1 Cor 11 does it state a woman is prophesying in any church full of men, you have added to scripture, something not there.

I recommend you trash that (NLT) and get a real bible (KJV)

Read the whole of 1 Corinthians and note especially chs 11 and 14 and you'll find that in the delivering of prophesy,'the one [male or female] who prophesies edifies the church' (1 Cor 14:4 NIV).

Prophesy is for edification of the church; speaking in tongues is for personal edification in speaking to God (1 Cor 14:2).

The NLT is an outstanding dynamic equivalence Bible translation. The KJV uses antiquated, irrelevant language for its formal equivalence translation. The NT MSS on which the KJV is based are late - 12th to 14th centuries - while the new translations are based on much earlier MSS that go back and are much closer to the times of the original apostles (so less copying by copyists and a less chance for variants and insertion of new information).

Do you use the original 1611 KJV that comes complete with the Apocrypha???

See my articles that deal with why the KJV is not the best Bible translation today:
Oz
 
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OzSpen

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There is a whole long list of views of other people that I was taught in various churches — mainly the CoC — over the years, that I can no longer even entertain since I actually began reading the Bible for myself. Time and time again, I would come across passages that I was told mean "thus and such", only to find that, in actuality many of those ideas and notions were nowhere to be found in the honest evaluations of the words written there.

Willie,

You are still avoiding telling us where you stand on women in ministry. Why the dancing around the topic?

Oz
 

OzSpen

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If you are looking for a specific statement with those exact words, you will not find it. Which means that 1 Tim 2:12 should suffice. And furthermore there is no need for any involved exegesis or exposition on this matter. It is a plain and simple statement, meant to be simply obeyed without question.

Enoch,

I'm not a naive exegete. I examine the Bible in context and in this case am looking at what was happening in the Church of Ephesus that would cause Paul to make this unusual statement when a number of other NT verses do not restrict the teaching ministry to men only.

Since you claim that 1 Tim 2:12 'is a plain and simple statement, meant to be simply obeyed without question', try the same approach with 1 Tim 2:15 (NIV):

  • 'But women will be saved through childbearing – if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety'.
Oz
 

OzSpen

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In our town there are three churches with female pastors.
All three a feminists and two of them are lesbians.
(And all three are left wing radicals.)

However, wouldn't they be associated with theologically liberal churches that do not proclaim the Gospel of salvation through Christ alone?

I have that kind of church around me here in Brisbane - and their attendances are dropping.
 

Truth7t7

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No, Paul is addressing all Christian women, whether single, married, or widowed. He is stating a general principle to be applied in all churches, and he has also provided the reasons.

To further support this passage, we have 1 Corinthians 14:34:
Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.

Unless Christians are prepared to take all passages pertaining to the distinct roles of men and women within the home and within the local assembly, all we will end up with is spiritual confusion. And spiritual confusion comes from the Adversary.

Paul gives us the reason why women may not preach, teach or usurp authority with the local church, and it must be spiritually discerned. It will make no sense to the unbeliever or the natural man, but we are told that it is because Eve disobeyed God by submitting to Satanic deception, Christian women may not take on the role of elders (who are the preachers and teacher and leaders).

Some people may say "Why should Eve's disobedience affect us today?" Well the fact of the matter is that Adam's disobedience affects the whole human race today (Rom 5:12 and following), so we should not be surprised if Eve's disobedience impacts on women today.
we will disagree :)

A woman is to keep silent in the church, simple.

Pastors And Deacons Are To Be Married Men, Of Good Report, Ruling Their Own Houses Well.

1 Timothy 3:1-13KJV
3 This is a true saying, if a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work.
2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;
3 Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous;
4 One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity;
5 (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?)
6 Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil.
7 Moreover he must have a good report of them which are without; lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.
8 Likewise must the deacons be grave, not doubletongued, not given to much wine, not greedy of filthy lucre;
9 Holding the mystery of the faith in a pure conscience.
10 And let these also first be proved; then let them use the office of a deacon, being found blameless.
11 Even so must their wives be grave, not slanderers, sober, faithful in all things.
12 Let the deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well.
13 For they that have used the office of a deacon well purchase to themselves a good degree, and great boldness in the faith which is in Christ Jesus.

A woman is to remain silent in the Church service, at no time within the Church does a woman exercise authority over the man.

1 Timothy 2:11-14KJV
11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve.
14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

1 Corinthians 14:33-35KJV
33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.
34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law.
35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.

A woman is to obey and love her husband and family, be a keeper at home, simple.

Titus 2:3-5KJV
3 The aged women likewise, that they be in behaviour as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things;
4 That they may teach the young women to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children,
5 To be discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God be not blasphemed.
 

Truth7t7

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Read the whole of 1 Corinthians and note especially chs 11 and 14 and you'll find that in the delivering of prophesy,'the one [male or female] who prophesies edifies the church' (1 Cor 14:4 NIV).

Prophesy is for edification of the church; speaking in tongues is for personal edification in speaking to God (1 Cor 14:2).

The NLT is an outstanding dynamic equivalence Bible translation. The KJV uses antiquated, irrelevant language for its formal equivalence translation. The NT MSS on which the KJV is based are late - 12th to 14th centuries - while the new translations are based on much earlier MSS that go back and are much closer to the times of the original apostles (so less copying by copyists and a less chance for variants and insertion of new information).

Do you use the original 1611 KJV that comes complete with the Apocrypha???

See my articles that deal with why the KJV is not the best Bible translation today:
Oz
Not one place does it instruct the "Woman" to prophesy in the church while men are present.
 

Helen

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No secret, women are to be silent in the churches, not to have authority over the man, be submissive to their husbands, and be home makers.

Keep posting this. Maybe you will convince someone if you re-post it enough.:D
Saying it over and over does not make it God's spiritual truth.

But..have at it!
Be blessed. H
 
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Helen

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Feminism, Homosexuality, Liberalism, These Are Nothing New Grace, And They Are Not Part Of God's Plan.

Well we totally agree on that one. Amen!

I wont argue, I hate it.
But I will say at my age, and with experience...I know to many couples where the man is the lesser in anointing...the church would fall without the wisdom and anointing of the wife's leadership.
Together they are ONE in the ministry. The membership see them as ONE.
Not "him and her".

It is the Holy Spirit that anoints or not...His anointing is what is LIFE to the members. You are hung up on male and female.
Of which there are none in the Spirit.

But, I have said all I have to say on this. I will withdraw.

God bless you....Helen.
 

101G

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The Greek language used in Eph 4:11 for 'pastors and teachers' should be pastor-teachers as it refers to one person - because of the one definite article that precedes and 2 nouns.

It is only in this verse that pastors also are called teachers. Elsewhere in the NT we have the gift of teacher or the ministry of being a shepherd. Some have only one of the gifts.

Oz
Teachers are pastors, I already know this, as well as apostles are teachers, and prophets are teachers. for there is only one Spirit that is this GIFT.

this is scriptures, 1 Corinthians 12:28 "And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues".

in this scripture above, can you see the PASTOR?

PCY
 
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101G

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No, Paul is addressing all Christian women, whether single, married, or widowed. He is stating a general principle to be applied in all churches, and he has also provided the reasons.

To further support this passage, we have 1 Corinthians 14:34:
Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.

Enoch111, first thanks for the reply, but I must still insist that the apostle was speaking to only wives of husbands in the churches. listen to the very next verse, 1 Corinthians 14:35 "And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church".

question, "do all women in the church have a husband?" Yes or no, I'll be waiting for your answer.

PCY
 
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Enoch111

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question, "do all women in the church have a husband?" Yes or no, I'll be waiting for your answer.
Of course all women in the church will not have husbands. But the principle remains. Those without husbands can ask fathers or brothers.
What you are trying to vainly suggest is that single women can be elders in the church. Which in itself is laughable. Check the qualifications for elders.
 

OzSpen

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Not one place does it instruct the "Woman" to prophesy in the church while men are present.

  • It most certainly does:'3 But the one who prophesies speaks to people for their strengthening, encouraging and comfort. 4 Anyone who speaks in a tongue edifies themselves, but the one who prophesies edifies the church' (1 Cor 14:3-4 NIV).
Therefore, for prophecy to be able to 'edify the church' it needs to happen in the church gathering. How else will edification of the church happen?

  • 'What then shall we say, brothers and sisters? When you come together, each of you has a hymn, or a word of instruction [a teaching], a revelation, a tongue or an interpretation. Everything must be done so that the church may be built up' (1 Cor 14:26 NIV).
Brother and sisters in the church gave 'a word of instruction/teaching' 'when you come together'. Was that a coming together for a BBQ or a church dinner? Of course not! It was a gathering of the church where both mean and women could present 'a revelation' to the church.

Exegete Gordon Fee's assessment of 'a revelation' is:

'Perhaps in the final list (v. 26) this word covers both prophecy and knowledge as the more inclusive term. In any case, it implies the disclosure of diving "mysteries," either about the nature of the gospel itself (cf. 2:10) or perhaps about things otherwise hidden to the "natural man"' (Fee 1987:663).​

Oz

Works consulted

Fee, G. D. 1987, The First Epistle to the Corinthians (gen. ed. F. F. Bruce, The New International Commentary on the New Testament), William B. Eerdmans Publishing Company, Grand Rapids, Michigan.

 
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OzSpen

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this is scriptures, 1 Corinthians 12:28 "And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues".

in this scripture above, can you see the PASTOR?

PCY

101,

Of course that verse does not include pastor-teachers because there are Holy Spirit gifted people in the church who are teachers and not pastors. Is that not acceptable to you?

However, Eph 4:11 does state there is in the ministry gift of pastor-teachers. Pastor-teachers don't have to be mentioned in 1 Cor 12:28 to make pastor-teachers legitimate gifts according to Eph 4:11.

Oz
 

101G

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Of course all women in the church will not have husbands. But the principle remains. Those without husbands can ask fathers or brothers.
What you are trying to vainly suggest is that single women can be elders in the church. Which in itself is laughable. Check the qualifications for elders.

YOU ERROR, the scripture said, 1 Corinthians 14:35 "And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church".

a husband is not father or brother here in verse 35 but a husband, (nothing to do with principle) so you're reproved.

then you compound your error with "are trying to vainly suggest is that single women can be elders in the church" no vainest in my speech, I'm very clear. yes, if qualified. our brother Timothy (a SINGLE young man) was an Elder who was a bishop/pastor, and the LORD God ,the Lord Jesus is no RESPECTER of PERSON. scripture, 1 Timothy 4:12 "Let no man despise thy youth; but be thou an example of the believers, in word, in conversation, in charity, in spirit, in faith, in purity". likewise if a "SINGLE" young dedicate WOMAN do the same, there is no partiality with God.

I see you don't know your basic bible doctrine.

so good day to you.
 
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