Looking for advice: Can women be pastors

[101G]

101,

Of course that verse does not include pastor-teachers because there are Holy Spirit gifted people in the church who are teachers and not pastors. Is that not acceptable to you?

However, Eph 4:11 does state there is in the ministry gift of pastor-teachers. Pastor-teachers don't have to be mentioned in 1 Cor 12:28 to make pastor-teachers legitimate gifts according to Eph 4:11.

Oz

You ERROR OZ, the scripture do include the PASTOR. listen Paul is an apostle correct, but did you not know that he is also a Pastor.Bishop, and prophet, and teacher? Yes Pastor is there. let's see it.

Paul is an Apostle, and Apostle are "set" ordained/appointed first. here is the verse that shows the apostle is a pastor also. 1 Corinthians 13:2 "And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing".

what is the duties of a Pastor? Jeremiah 3:15 "And I will give you pastors according to mine heart, which shall feed you with knowledge and understanding."

there you have it, "knowledge" and "Understanding". the apostle Paul fed the church of God with "ALL" understanding, and "ALL" Knowledge.

and yes he the apostle is a TEACHER, supportive scriptures, 1 Corinthians 4:17 "For this cause have I sent unto you Timotheus, who is my beloved son, and faithful in the Lord, who shall bring you into remembrance of my ways which be in Christ, as I teach every where in every church

1 Corinthians 14:19 "Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue.


see Oz, you was Looking with CARNAL eyes at 1 Cor 12:28, for the actual word "pastor" and or "teacher" you want see is physically there, it's in the Spiritual Gift, which only Spiritual eyes will see and reveal.

so don't try and put words in my mouth as to what I accept or not.

good day to you.

 

[OzSpen]

You ERROR OZ, the scripture do include the PASTOR. listen Paul is an apostle correct, but did you not know that he is also a Pastor.Bishop, and prophet, and teacher? Yes Pastor is there. let's see it.

Paul is an Apostle, and Apostle are "set" ordained/appointed first. here is the verse that shows the apostle is a pastor also. 1 Corinthians 13:2 "And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing".

That's false! It's your invention!

 

[amadeus]

So, should women be able to teach and preach and be pastor-teachers in mixed church gatherings?

They should be able to do whatever God calls them to do. The same is so for men. Deciding what God's will is for another person may well get us in trouble with God.

 

[Helen]

Wise words John

 

[amadeus]

Can you clarify this statement? When the word home maker is used, is it suggesting that the wife is to be just at home, not working at a job, and raising the kids? Very few households can manage to live off 1 income nowadays especially if children are included.

This really got going, I believe, with our involvement in World War II. Prior to that time most of the time it was the man who worked outside while the woman worked in and around the home. When most of the young able men went off to war, the women moved heavily into jobs where for the most part they had never been before. When the war was over the men came home, but some of them discovered that two workers allowed for a higher standard of living even though parenting generally suffered because both mom and dad were away from the children so much of the time.

As more and more couples got into this where both spouses worked jobs away from home it caused the cost of living to go up to the point where it became difficult or even impossible for a family to have even a minimal living standard based on one paycheck. Directly this may have nothing to do with God, but directly or indirectly people have allowed the walk they have had with God to be been affected adversely. Those may be the reasons, but whether or not they are good excuses for not serving God is another thing, isn't it?

This is only an aside to the question of the OP.

 

[amadeus]

question, "do all women in the church have a husband?" Yes or no, I'll be waiting for your answer.

PCY

And who are the women in the church, but the natural men and women who are are silently receiving while God is speaking though the anointed minister of the moment, be that minister male or female in the flesh.

 

[101G]

And who are the women in the church, but the natural men and women who are are silently receiving while God is speaking though the anointed minister of the moment, be that minister male or female in the flesh.

this is true, the vessel must be silent

 

[brakelite]

I keep reading this word "authority". T hat women are not to have authority over men. Now I agree with that. Good had set a correct order...The Father, the Son, the husband, the wife, the children. Unmarried women and men are still subject to their parents while they remain in the home, as Jesus was.
But tell me. Why do some extend authority into the preaching ministry? Why is it that because a woman preaches, it is assumed that such is an exercising of authority over men who must obey the preacher? Did Paul exercise authority in preaching? Did his listeners blindly obey as those under authority? No! They did not. In fact Paul commended those who did not blindly surrender to His teaching, and went home to study the scriptures to make sure he was on point. The Bereans he described as noble, despite the fact that they did not simply surrender to His teaching. Thus if Paul's preaching was NOT an exercise of authority, why do we claim a woman's preaching is?
When I preach, I make it a point to those listening to go home and do the study to double check my lessons. God forbid anyone (here included) should accept my teachings as AUTHORATATIVE.

 

[101G]

I keep reading this word "authority". T hat women are not to have authority over men. Now I agree with that. Good had set a correct order...The Father, the Son, the husband, the wife, the children. Unmarried women and men are still subject to their parents while they remain in the home, as Jesus was.
But tell me. Why do some extend authority into the preaching ministry? Why is it that because a woman preaches, it is assumed that such is an exercising of authority over men who must obey the preacher? Did Paul exercise authority in preaching? Did his listeners blindly obey as those under authority? No! They did not. In fact Paul commended those who did not blindly surrender to His teaching, and went home to study the scriptures to make sure he was on point. The Bereans he described as noble, despite the fact that they did not simply surrender to His teaching. Thus if Paul's preaching was NOT an exercise of authority, why do we claim a woman's preaching is?
When I preach, I make it a point to those listening to go home and do the study to double check my lessons. God forbid anyone (here included) should accept my teachings as AUTHORATATIVE.

GINOLJC, this is the age old problem. the Church is not the HOME. the head of the church is the Lord Jesus the Christ. and in the church and not the home the husband and wife are ONE. let's examine the scripture,

1 Corinthians 11:3 "But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God".

let's break this down....... that the head of every man is Christ STOP, we don't need to go any further. Christ is the HEAD of "EVERY" man, meaning every husband, every wife, and every single man, and every single woman, that's in the CHURCH. let's continue, "and the head of the woman is the man". did one see the revelation? just in case you missed it, the scripture said that "THE" man/husband si the Head of "THE" woman/wife. let me make it simple, the scripture did not say that the man is the head of "EVERY" woman , read it again. no one man is the head of any woman except his "OWN" wife.

My God the scripture are plain as day.

understand Christ is the Head of every man, MAN here meaning every (fellow)ship, person in the body of Christ. the apostle did not use the term G444 ἄνθρωπος anthropos for man but used G435 ἀνήρ aner (a-neer') n INSTEAD. the question WHY? because Christ... not the Lord Jesus, but Christ is not the Head or the AUTHORITY of every G444 ἄνθρωπος anthropos, for every G444 ἄνθρωπος anthropos is not in his body ... yet. hence the uses of G435 ἀνήρ aner (a-neer').

conclusion when it come to the CHURCH, the Husband at home should have instructed his "OWN" wife in the things or the protocols of God. but when they both come to Church it is CHRIST who teaches both the husband, the wife, and the single people in his body the church. as husband at home it's the man/Husband the leader, the first to serve, to go to God if there is an lack of information or communication to be gain or understood. hence why God said in Genesis 3:16b "U and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee".

"RULE OVER" means protector, hence the head covering. without going into further detail, having the "RULE OVER" also means the FIRST to SERVE, as the first born in any family, the the elder have the charge. I'll stop here for now. but there is much more of the role of the husband at HOME and at CHURCH.

one final word, ....... with "authority" comes responsibility

PCY.

 

[OzSpen]

GINOLJC, to all.

MY, my, my, when will people ever learn. Enoch111 did you read the whole chapter? apparently not. if you would have you would have notice that the apostle is speaking to wives, not women in general in these verses. HOW DO I KNOW THIS. the apostle gives us the answer in vers 15, the very last verse in the chapter. listen. 1 Timothy 2:15 "Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety".

did one see the answer to the woman problem? if not here it is, "she shall be saved in childbearing".

question, what type of Woman bear Children? .... the answer a "MARRIED ONE". meaning a WIFE. again the Greek word used here is
G1135 γυνή gune (ǰ ï-nee') n.
1. a woman.
2. (specially) a wife.
[probably from the base of G1096]
KJV: wife, woman

The apostle is speaking about "WIVES"

take Note: if the apostle would have used the word G2338 θήλυς thelus below, then case closed, pack our bags and go home, NO, the Holy Spirit allowed the apostle use G1135 γυνή gune when read in context for the subject at hand was not directed to all women, but to wives.
G2338 θήλυς thelus (thee'-lïs) adj.
female.
[from thele (the nipple)]
KJV: female, woman

see the difference between to two words above. both can mean woman, but one must understand the context of the scripture that it is given in in order to determine the use of the word.

Just like in 1 Corinthians 14:34 "Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law". here the scripture uses
G1135 γυνή gune (ǰ ï-nee') n.
1. a woman.
2. (specially) a wife.

and gives the answer why this word for woman is used, the very next verse. "35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church".

see how easy the bible answer itself. just like it answer itself back in 1 Timothy 2:15, she (the wife) will be saved in "CHILDBEARING".

it's amazing how the word of God answer itself .... IF WE LET IT.

pcy.

101G,

I do wish you would understand the Greek language:

The base word for gune (feminine, nominative case, singular number) means woman OR wife. The same Greek word for both nouns in English AND Greek. This third declension noun has these declensions:

Stem: γυναικ- (gunaik)
NSF: γυνή (gune) - nominative, singular feminine
ASF: γυναῖκα (gunaika) - accusative, singular, feminine
DSF: γυναικί (gunaiki) - dative, singular, feminine
GSF: γυναικός (gunaikos) - genitive, singular, feminine
VSF: γύναι (gunai) - vocative, singular, feminine
NPF: γυναῖκες (gunaikes) - nominative, plural, feminine
APF: γυναῖκας (gunaikas) - accusative, plural, feminine
GPF: γυναικῶν(gunaikwn) - genitive, plural, feminine
DPF: γυναιξί(ν) (gunaiksin) - dative, plural, feminine
VPF: γυναῖκες (gunaikes) -vocative, plural, feminine

(See http://www.ibiblio.org/bgreek/project/f ... on-11.html and http://www.ibiblio.org/bgreek/project/f ... on-15.html.) [source]

What's the meaning of gune in

• Arndt & Gingrich's Greek Lexicon? 'Of any adult female; wife, bride [may be possible]; the woman in heaven'. A&G associate 1 Tim 2:11f with the meaning 'of any adult female' (A & G 1957:167).
• Kittel & Friedrich's (eds), Theological Dictionary of the New Testament: In general, Greek from the time of Homer to the NT, gune meant 'the "female" as distinct from the male' ... 'the "wife"' and 'the bride' (Oepke in Kittel 1964, vol 1, pp. 776-777).
• Colin Brown (ed), New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology: 'a woman, female being ... wife ... someone betrothed' (Vorlander in Brown, vol 3, p. 1058).

So, in 1 Tim 2:12, Paul could be addressing women or wives. Gune can be translated either woman/female or wife.

You stated:

question, what type of Woman bear Children? .... the answer a "MARRIED ONE". meaning a WIFE. again the Greek word used here is
G1135 γυνή gune (ǰ ï-nee') n.

I have sad news for you. The kind of woman who can bear children is not just a married woman, but any woman who is fertile.

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

I keep reading this word "authority". T hat women are not to have authority over men. Now I agree with that. Good had set a correct order...The Father, the Son, the husband, the wife, the children. Unmarried women and men are still subject to their parents while they remain in the home, as Jesus was.
But tell me. Why do some extend authority into the preaching ministry? Why is it that because a woman preaches, it is assumed that such is an exercising of authority over men who must obey the preacher? Did Paul exercise authority in preaching? Did his listeners blindly obey as those under authority? No! They did not. In fact Paul commended those who did not blindly surrender to His teaching, and went home to study the scriptures to make sure he was on point. The Bereans he described as noble, despite the fact that they did not simply surrender to His teaching. Thus if Paul's preaching was NOT an exercise of authority, why do we claim a woman's preaching is?
When I preach, I make it a point to those listening to go home and do the study to double check my lessons. God forbid anyone (here included) should accept my teachings as AUTHORATATIVE.

However, what's the meaning of authentein (translated as authority) in 1 Tim 2:12? This is the only time this verb appears in the entire NT.

Also, what's the meaning of 'head' in this 1 Tim 2 passage? Is it like the 'head' (source) of the river, the 'head' coach, she's 'ahead' of me in the line at the bank, etc?

 

[OzSpen]

"Some men seem to have to find "authorization" to silence women they can't dominate."

But 1 Tim 2:12 is talking about the silencing of the teaching of domineering women. What are the problems with this verse and passage?

1. There is continuing disagreement among New Testament scholars as to exactly what Paul prohibits in this passage. Does he forbid women from teaching men only, or is it a comprehensive prohibition against female teaching of any kind? The problem is compounded by Paul’s failure to use the common word for “authority” (exousia) in verse 12. However, whichever interpretation one favours, the end result is that some kind of restriction is placed on the teaching ministry of women in the church.

2. A limitation on female ministry seems to contradict the principle of “mutuality in equality” established elsewhere in the Pauline epistles (e.g.. 1 Cor. 11:5, 14:26, Gal. 3:28, Eph. 5:21).

3. If women are excluded from a significant ministry of every church, this will have ramifications at a deep level in the local church. Should not this restriction have been included in the Pauline passages dealing with the churches’ teaching ministry (e.g.. Rom. 12, 1 Cor. 12, Eph. 4)? Except for this one sentence in 1 Tim. 2:12, the gifts of the Spirit to the church have never been differentiated on the basis of sex in the entire New Testament.

4. Some of Paul’s writings make the teaching ministry available to all believers, including women. In Col 3:16, “teaching and admonishing” is the responsibility of “one another,” which must obviously include male and female. If “teaching and admonishing” are restricted to males only, consistency of interpretation requires that compassion, kindness, gentleness, patience, bearing with, forgiveness and love in that passage (Col. 3:12-14) must be practised by males only. Such a conclusion regarding Christian character is untenable.

See also 1 Cor. 14:26 where “each one” (male and female) in the church is encouraged to minister via a psalm, teaching, revelation, tongue and interpretation when the church gathers. If women are restricted from teaching, consistency of interpretation requires their silence with psalms, revelations, tongues and interpretations.

Paul affirmed the teaching ministry of women (Acts 18:26, Titus 2:3) and commended women in ministry (Rom. 16:1-15; 1 Cor. 11:5, 16:16; Phil. 4:2ff.).

5. According to the remainder of Scripture, salvation is obtained by grace through faith. First Tim. 2:15 links salvation to having babies: “. . . Yet she will be saved through child-bearing . . .” How is this possible?

The above difficulties concerning the interpretation of 1 Tim. 2:9-15 should be a warning not to proof-text a verse in isolation from the biblical context (e.g. 2;12). A satisfactory explanation of the passage demands more than a superficial reading.
(taken from my article: Must women never teach men in the church?)

Oz

 

[lforrest]

I'm looking for insight on this topic (not a debate) My family is Methodist and growing up I attended a Methodist church and women as pastors was accepted. Where I am living now, there is a huge church of Christ population (I live in a small town, not many church options) and after attending their church for the last few years this topic is still uncertain in my mind. Where I attend a female can't lead a prayer if there is a male present, nor teach a class if a male is in it. Any role that a woman "has authority" over a male they are not permitted to do.

I would appreciate any insight on these roles. I am not looking to debate the subject, I know it can be sensitive - just looking for some clarity. Thank you.

Not sure if you found it but there has been discussion on this here before.

Gender Roles, the home and the Local Church

 

[brakelite]

However, what's the meaning of authentein (translated as authority) in 1 Tim 2:12? This is the only time this verb appears in the entire NT.

Also, what's the meaning of 'head' in this 1 Tim 2 passage? Is it like the 'head' (source) of the river, the 'head' coach, she's 'ahead' of me in the line at the bank, etc?

831 αὐθεντέω authenteo ow-then-teh’-o
from a compound of 846 and an obsolete hentes (a worker); v; { See TDNT 114}
AV-usurp authority over 1; 1
1) one who with his own hands kills another or himself
2) one who acts on his own authority, autocratic
3) an absolute master
4) to govern, exercise dominion over one

I see no reference to 'head' in 1 Timothy but in 1 Cor 11

2776 κεφαλή kephale kef-al-ay’
from the primary kapto (in the sense of seizing); n f; TDNT- 3:673,136,429; {See TDNT 168} {See TDNT 382}
AV-head 76; 76
1) the head, both of men and often of animals. Since the loss of the head destroys life, this word is used in the phrases relating to capital and extreme punishment.
2) metaph. anything supreme, chief, prominent
2a) of persons, master lord: of a husband in relation to his wife
2b) of Christ: the Lord of the husband and of the Church
2c) of things: the corner stone

I did read several years ago an author justifying the head as being the 'source'. At the time I got that and understood the implications, but cannot now remember the scriptural reference used to justify his reasoning.

 

[Truth7t7]

Not sure if you found it but there has been discussion on this here before.

Gender Roles, the home and the Local Church

The posters forum name in the link provided

"Wormwood"

Revelation 8:11 KJV
And the name of the star is called Wormwood: and the third part of the waters became wormwood; and many men died of the waters, because they were made bitter.

 

[101G]

Ok, you folks have it all wrong.

Women needed to be silent in that church for a reason.

Timothy (and Paul) were preaching that the old man needed to be crucified.
The women in church started to holler and scream in protest because they thought Timothy (and Paul) were talking about their husbands going to be crucified.
Timothy told them to be silent and I don't blame him.

So now you all know!

(smile) ........ LOL, now that we have been enlighten, we all can pack our bags and go home now .

but just before we do, there is one thing correct here, the apostle was not speaking to the women/wives, and that's one truth here. and no they was not afraid for their husband, because they was to ask their "own" husband AT HOME AFTER CHURCH to learn them something. so the crucifixion of their husband is out .... . but the pressing question is what was it they need to learn at home from their husband.

PCY

 

[101G]

However, what's the meaning of authentein (translated as authority) in 1 Tim 2:12? This is the only time this verb appears in the entire NT.

Also, what's the meaning of 'head' in this 1 Tim 2 passage? Is it like the 'head' (source) of the river, the 'head' coach, she's 'ahead' of me in the line at the bank, etc?

I have never heard of such ignorance. "she's ahead of me in line", or "head coach", these are carnal things having nothing to do with Spiritual things. as for these first and head coaches, listen Matthew 19:30 "But many that are first shall be last; and the last shall be first". so there goes that head coaching job, and the first in line out the door.

the apostle was clear from the start, 1 Corinthians 11:1 "Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ".

Leadership is by EXAMPLE. don't seek your own glory, but Christ's. to be a follower, one "LEARN". take up your cross and follow Christ. both in church and in the Home.

if you're going to be called CHRISTIAN, well then follow/LEARN of him. Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ, good words.

 

[OzSpen]

but just before we do, there is one thing correct here, the apostle was not speaking to the women/wives, and that's one truth here. and no they was not afraid for their husband, because they was to ask their "own" husband AT HOME AFTER CHURCH to learn them something. so the crucifixion of their husband is out .... . but the pressing question is what was it they need to learn at home from their husband.
PCY

101G,

This is false that 'the apostle was not speaking to the women/wives.

Paul was most definitely speaking to women in 1 Cor 11-15. Here's the evidence!

• In 1 Cor 11:2-16 (NIV), the women are address regarding head covering;
  
• 'Now about the gifts of the Spirit, brothers and sisters, I do not want you to be uninformed' (1 Cor 12:1 NIV);
  
• 'Now, brothers and sisters ...' (1 Cor 14:6 NIV);
• 'What then shall we say, brothers and sisters? When you come together, each of you has ...' (1 Cor 14:26 NIV);
• 'Therefore, my brothers and sisters, be eager to prophesy, and do not forbid speaking in tongues' (1 Cor 14:29 NIV);
• 'Now, brothers and sisters, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand' (1 Cor 15:1 NIV).
• 'After that, he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers and sisters at the same time, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep' (1 Cor 15:6 NIV);
• 'I declare to you, brothers and sisters, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable' (1 Cor 15:50 NIV).
• 'Therefore, my dear brothers and sisters, stand firm. Let nothing move you. Always give yourselves fully to the work of the Lord, because you know that your labour in the Lord is not in vain' (1 Cor 15:58 NIV).

Do you know what it is called when you use false information to try to prove your point? It's a straw man falllacy. You have distorted Paul's argument with Fake News.

Oz

 

[Enoch111]

There is continuing disagreement among New Testament scholars as to exactly what Paul prohibits in this passage.

What does it matter what the *scholars* say or not? What saith the Holy Spirit? That is the only thing that matters.

Christians have TWO STARK CHOICES. (1) Take the written Word of God in its plain literal sense (unless there is sufficient reason to see a metaphor) or (2) play games with the Word of God and face the consequences of wresting (twisting) the Scripture "to their own destruction" (2 Pet 3:16).

There is absolutely nothing complicated about the roles of men and women in the home and in the local assembly (church). Therefore 1 Tim 2:12 must be accepted in its plain literal meaning.

To paraphrase, Christian women, you are not permitted by God to preach or teach in the local church, nor to assume any spiritual authority therein. God appoints elders, and elders are always men. They are to be the pastors, evangelists, preachers and teachers within the assembly. They are also to be the overseers (bishops) of the flock, to ensure that the false teaching of women as pastors is rejected out of hand (along with any other false teachings).

 

[Triumph1300]

to ensure that the false teaching of women as pastors is rejected out of hand (along with any other false teachings).

Like some of the stuff I see posted on Christian Forums.