Lord, rise now and judge the earth

[Marcus O'Reillius]

As to Revelation 6, "must have been done in ancient times" is not necessarily the case, but like so much of your declarative statements is the conclusion of a 74 year-old mind that has lost the ability to be sharpened.

Likewise, the sixth Seal can be directly related to the Return of Jesus as it includes the sun/moon/star event.

Likewise again, towards the end of this age as Jesus taught in the broad overview of the Olivet Discourse in Mt 24:4-14, and as ATP notes correctly, are the first four Seals.

The Bowl Judgments happen BEFORE Armageddon, but that battle is never stated to happen on the Day of the Lord. The two battles that are associated with the Day of the Lord are around Jerusalem and the "Valley of Decision" which scholars place near Bethlehem to the southeast. Har Megeddio is a mountain in the plains of Ephraim to the north. It is an ancient battlefield where the Kings of Israel battled their foes to victory.

 

[Marcus O'Reillius]

Isaiah 30:26-28 On the Day that the Lord saves His people, the sun will shine with seven times its usual brightness. The Lord will come from afar, His anger blazing and His doom heavy, His breath a devouring fire.

Isaiah 30:26 This will be caused by a coronal mass ejection [sunstrike] hitting the earth.nAmbient temperature say, 25 Celsius x 7= 175, approximately the heat required to cook food. This will result in extensive deaths and destruction. Fires will destroy cities and forests, resulting in huge smoke clouds, covering and darkening the earth. Isaiah 33:10-12, Psalm 18:7-15

Isaiah 30:26 doesn't say it is on the Day He saves His people. First error.
Isaiah 30:26 doesn't say Jesus comes from afar. Second error.
Isaiah 30:26 doesn't say Jesus' anger burns or he breathes fire. Third error.
Isaiah 30:26 doesn't say the sun erupts with a coronal ejection to burn the earth. Fourth error.
Isaiah 30:26 doesn't say it's seven times hotter. Fifth error.
Isaiah 30:26 doesn't say the sun shining brightly results in death or destruction. Sixth error.
Isaiah 30:26 doesn't say the sun shining brightly destroys cities and forests. Seventh error.
Isaiah 30:26 doesn't say huge clouds cover the earth. (How is it supposed to shine Einstein?). Eighth error.

You're chock full of error there rabbi keras. You might want to correct your errors before telling others that they're in error.

 

[StanJ]

Why do you post here, if you have already decided what God should do?

Same can be asked of you keras......why?
Everything you post is presented as defacto truth, even though you don't show it nor can you prove it.

 

[ATP]

[SIZE=11pt]Revelation 1:1-2 [/SIZE]The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him so that He might show His servants what must soon take place. Happy is the one who reads aloud this [SIZE=11pt]Rev. 6 The ‘Lamb’ broke the first five seals - this must have been done in ancient times as these [/SIZE] prophecies have already commenced, as in Zechariah 6 and with the persecution of Christians.
[SIZE=11pt]Zechariah 6:1-8. These are parallel verses about the four horsemen who range over the earth. They were released and given power over a quarter of the earth’s people. This is actually about the number of people killed by wars, famines, disease, etc, since then and still to come, before the Return. [/SIZE]

Ancient times? No keras, John was taken up to heaven in Rev 4 so God could give Him a vision of the 70th week. The six seals are a part of the 70th week.

Rev 4:1 NIV After this I looked, and there before me was a door standing open in heaven. And the voice I had first heard speaking to me like a trumpet said, “Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after this.”

[SIZE=11pt]THE FIFTH SEAL- tells of those saints who have been killed for their faith, throughout the ages. They wait for the completion of their numbers, now and up to the end.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]Therefore, the first five seals have been opened. The world and all its people are now suffering under these curses. But it gets worse, for the next event must be:[/SIZE]

I would disagree. These are specifically martyr's who have died in the GT and are resurrected at the first resurrection. I don't think "waiting a little longer" in Rev 6:11 consists of 2,000 years. The Greek word for little is "mikros" which means small. The Greek word for longer is "chronos" which means time. They were waiting a "small amount of time".

The 5th seal is open right after the abomination of desolation in the middle of the 70th week, and the "waiting a little longer" ends at the 7th trumpet which opens at the end of the 70th week in Rev 11:18...

Rev 6:10 NIV They called out in a loud voice, “How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?”

Rev 11:18 NIV The nations were angry, and your wrath has come. The time has come for judging the dead, and for rewarding your servants the prophets and your people who revere your name, both great and small-- and for destroying those who destroy the earth."

[SIZE=11pt]THE SIXTH SEAL –[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt] Rev. 6:12-17 [/SIZE]A great earthquake, the sun is darkened, the moon red, stars fall to the earth, the sky will be like a scroll rolled up. People will hide in caves from the wrath of the Lord.
[SIZE=11pt]Isaiah 2:12-21 [/SIZE]On that Day, the Lord will arise and strike the world with terror. People will hide in caves to escape the dread presence of the Lord.
[SIZE=11pt]Isaiah 34:1-5 [/SIZE]The Lord’s judgement descends on the people doomed for destruction, for the Lord’s anger is against all the nations. The sky is rolled up like a scroll.
[SIZE=11pt]Joel 2:1-11 [/SIZE]The Day of the Lord is coming – a Day of darkness, the earth shakes, a vast and countless host appears, the like has never been known, nor will be again. Their appearing is a devouring fire, the flame of their passing leaves a desolate wasteland.
[SIZE=11pt]Isaiah 13:9-13 [/SIZE]See, the Day of the Lord is coming, a cruel day, with wrath and fierce anger – to make the land desolate and destroy the sinners within it. The sun and moon will be darkened as I punish the world for its evil. The heavens will tremble and the earth will shake.
[SIZE=11pt]Isaiah 30:26-28 [/SIZE]On the Day that the Lord saves His people, the sun will shine with seven times its usual brightness. The Lord will come from afar, His anger blazing and His doom heavy, His breath a devouring fire. [SIZE=11pt]Reference: REB some verses abridged[/SIZE]

None of these prophecies can be related to the Return of Jesus in His glory, or the sheep and goat judgement.

The "Return of Jesus" as you call it begins with rapture keras. "His Coming Parousia" begins with RAPTURE.

If you don't believe the sheep will be separated from the goats at rapture then, maybe it's an event you need to experience personally...

1 Thess 4:15 NIV According to the Lord's word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming (parousia) of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep.

The Trumpet and Bowl punishments of the Tribulation will happen in the 3½ years before the Return.

I would disagree on your timeline. The trumpets will occur in the middle of the last 3.5 years after the GT and when the Day of the Lord begins (see picture below). Trumpets will continue to the end of the 70th week, even the fifth trumpet will last five months alone! After the 70th week is complete Jesus will land on the Mount of Olives and pour out the 7 bowls for 30 days in Dan 12:11. The number 30 represents mourning, and the mourning process will occur in those 30 extra days after the 70th week...

Num 20:29 NIV and when the whole community learned that Aaron had died, all the Israelites mourned for him thirty days.

Deut 34:8 NIV The Israelites grieved for Moses in the plains of Moab thirty days, until the time of weeping and mourning was over.

Zech 12:10-14 NIV “And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplication. They will look on me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son. 11On that day the weeping in Jerusalem will be as great as the weeping of Hadad Rimmon in the plain of Megiddo. 12The land will mourn, each clan by itself, with their wives by themselves: the clan of the house of David and their wives, the clan of the house of Nathan and their wives, 13the clan of the house of Levi and their wives, the clan of Shimei and their wives, 14and all the rest of the clans and their wives.

 

[keras]

Ancient times? No keras, John was taken up to heaven in Rev 4 so God could give Him a vision of the 70th week. The six seals are a part of the 70th week.

Then you have 2 explanations to make: What about the 4 horses of Zechariah 1 and 6? And what about the terrible wars, famines, plagues and economic disasters we have experienced?

Re the Fifth Seal; Rev 6:9-11 doesn't say those martyrs are only from the G.T. Jesus actually says the martyrs count from Abel, Matthew 23:35, and a 'short time' to God from Stephen the first Christian martyr, until now, is 2 days.

You say there will be a rapture to heaven at the Return. This idea is not what is prophesied. What 1 Thess 4:15-17 actually says, is at the Return to earth of Jesus, first those martyrs will rise into their resurrected bodies and those who survive the G.T. and still maintain their faith, will also rise to meet and greet Jesus. They will all attend the marriage supper of the Lamb and then reign with Him on earth for 1000 years.

As far as to where the Trumpets and Bowls fit into the G.T., you could be right, that issue doesn't concern me.

 

[keras]

ATP said: If you don't believe the sheep will be separated from the goats at rapture then, maybe it's an event you need to experience personally...

The unchristian desire on the part of those who promote a rapture to heaven, to consign those who refute such a theory to the G.T. or worse, shows again how seriously deceived people are by this false idea. It colors their thinking and anyone who disputes their belief comes in for some very nasty and unpleasant abuse.
Is this the way we Christians should react to correction or even reasoned discussion? Remember Jesus will judge everyone. James 3:13-17

 

[Marcus O'Reillius]

You say there will be a rapture to heaven at the Return. This idea is not what is prophesied. What 1 Thess 4:15-17 actually says, is at the Return to earth of Jesus, first those martyrs will rise into their resurrected bodies and those who survive the G.T. and still maintain their faith, will also rise to meet and greet Jesus.

You have no credibility to say what 1Th 4:15-17 says. You just demonstrated eight errors on Isaiah 30:26.

You say a Rapture is not prophesied yet the very word "rapture" comes from 1Th 4:16-17.

1Th 4:15-17 does not say it is the martyrs who rise first, but the Dead in Christ. The martyrs have a special waiting place; their number is not yet complete when the fifth Seal is opened. They are not part of the sixth Seal Great Multitude.

Those who are still alive and remain (after the Great Tribulation) are then gathered up (Rapture).

This matches the gathering of the Elect after the Great Tribulation in the Olivet Discourse.
This also matches the Great Multitude in Heaven who come out of the Great Tribulation.

 

[Marcus O'Reillius]

The unchristian desire on the part of those who promote a rapture to heaven, to consign those who refute such a theory to the G.T. or worse, shows again how seriously deceived people are by this false idea. It colors their thinking and anyone who disputes their belief comes in for some very nasty and unpleasant abuse.

Abuse? rabbi keras, who doesn't know how to react to correction, doesn't know what abuse is if he complains about being corrected...

This whole conclusion being typified as "unchristian" is not supported in any way with pertinent, relevant Scrture which accompanies verses and passages which do prophesy about the gathering up.

As far as being seriously deceived, self-delusion is more than evident when rabbi keras creates whole fantasies of scenarios from Isaiah 30:26.

 

[keras]

I make eight errors in Isaiah 30:26?
Lets take a close look at that verse: Going back in ch 30, we see the prophet is talking about a Day when God will have mercy on His people. v18, then, when that Day comes, there will be plenteous water and their cattle will feed on broad pastures. v23 On that Day, referred to as a Day of great slaughter, when fortresses will fall, v25, the moon will shine as brightly as the sun and the sun will shine seven times stronger, as seven days in one. v26.
These are all definitive statements, but obviously given in a reverse order:
1/ the sun will explode with an intensely bright flash.
2/ The moon will reflect that flash.
3/ Military strongholds will be destroyed.
4/ There will be a great slaughter, worldwide.
5/ Then the Lord's people will enjoy adequate rainfall, healthy livestock and good crops in all of the holy Land.

Because the Lord has punished His people, by exile from the Holy Land, that will be the Day He will heal the reproach He inflicted upon them. v26b.
All this scenario can be supported by hundreds of other prophesies, starting from Deuteronomy 32:34-35, where He says; on the Day of doom for My enemies, I will open My storehouse, v22 and fire will consume His enemies......v43 His people will rejoice, as He avenges the blood of His servants, taking vengeance on His adversaries and cleansing His Holy Land.
Then in 2 Peter 3:7 By God's Word, the present heavens [atmosphere] and earth are reserved for burning, they are being kept until the Day of Judgement when the godless will be destroyed. The final prophecy about The Day of the Lord's vengeance and wrath, is the Sixth Seal. Also reiterated in Revelation 14:17-20

If anyone thinks this is not a true exposition of plain scripture, then their view of what the Bible is telling us, is suspect and not to be trusted.

 

[StanJ]

I make eight errors in Isaiah 30:26?
Lets take a close look at that verse: Going back in ch 30, we see the prophet is talking about a Day when God will have mercy on His people. v18, then, when that Day comes, there will be plenteous water and their cattle will feed on broad pastures. v23 On that Day, referred to as a Day of great slaughter, when fortresses will fall, v25, the moon will shine as brightly as the sun and the sun will shine seven times stronger, as seven days in one. v26.
These are all definitive statements, but obviously given in a reverse order:
1/ the sun will explode with an intensely bright flash.
2/ The moon will reflect that flash.
3/ Military strongholds will be destroyed.
4/ There will be a great slaughter, worldwide.
5/ Then the Lord's people will enjoy adequate rainfall, healthy livestock and good crops in all of the holy Land.

Because the Lord has punished His people, by exile from the Holy Land, that will be the Day He will heal the reproach He inflicted upon them. v26b.
All this scenario can be supported by hundreds of other prophesies, starting from Deuteronomy 32:34-35, where He says; on the Day of doom for My enemies, I will open My storehouse, v22 and fire will consume His enemies......v43 His people will rejoice, as He avenges the blood of His servants, taking vengeance on His adversaries and cleansing His Holy Land.
Then in 2 Peter 3:7 By God's Word, the present heavens [atmosphere] and earth are reserved for burning, they are being kept until the Day of Judgement when the godless will be destroyed. The final prophecy about The Day of the Lord's vengeance and wrath, is the Sixth Seal. Also reiterated in Revelation 14:17-20

If anyone thinks this is not a true exposition of plain scripture, then their view of what the Bible is telling us, is suspect and not to be trusted.

So in other words, you're right and everyone else is wrong?

 

[keras]

The Bible prophets are right. I just point out the truth of their prophecy, believe it or not, up to you.

I do not appreciate the video. It is ugly and rude. Why don't you address the issues, rather than making a fool of yourself?

 

[Marcus O'Reillius]

These are all definitive statements, but obviously given in a reverse order:

Obviously? No. You are not to be trusted when you re-write Scripture to suit yourself and ignore conditional statements set within the very verse you seek to use to prove your fantasy about an exploding sun happening on the Day God heals those whom He has inflicted (through the desolations He has decreed).

Isaiah presents a multitude of events without linear narrative throughout his book. The passages concerning the Servant Messiah are scattered throughout. They are set without regard to Wrath passages, or Millennium passages, which are also mixed up - and then there are more immediate prophetic passages which deal with Israel's near-future.

The poetry of Isaiah is set in verse in the text. This covers most of chapter 30. That is why your Bible version is set with short lines.

Isaiah 30:19-22 is a plea to return to the Lord.
Isaiah 30:23-26 constitute a vision of reward the Lord bestows upon Israel for her repentance.

When the towers fall could very well come at the Great Earthquake at the end of the one 'seven' - rather than on the Day of the Lord. Water figuratively means Spirit and it also grants life. It is an important part of the healing God provides after His desolations have brought the earth to a state of oblivion. This same type of usage with the water flowing out of the Temple can be found in Ezekiel's later chapters which also concern the Millennium.

You cannot rightly say verse 27 happens at the same time as verse 26.
Verse 27 concerns the Lord's Wrath, which is evident on the Day of the Lord.
Verse 26 concerns the time when God heals the Remnant who survive that Wrath.

Isaiah is not written in linear narrative form, nor is it written in reverse linear order. It is not linear at all.

The important thing about the sun shining seven times brighter, which ought to be taken figuratively in a poetic fashion, is that it happens on the Day God heals! It is not God's Wrath as you so erroneously make it out to be.

And I thought the .gif was funny.

 

[ATP]

The important thing about the sun shining seven times brighter, which ought to be taken figuratively in a poetic fashion, is that it happens on the Day God heals! It is not God's Wrath as you so erroneously make it out to be.

Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible - Moreover the light of the moon shall be as the light of the sun,.... An hyperbolical expression, used to set forth the exceeding great light of the Gospel under the dispensation of it, which would as far exceed the light of the former dispensation, comparable to the moon, as the light of the sun exceeds the light of the moon; as also that great degree of spiritual joy and comfort that should be in those times, especially in the latter day; and the Jews themselves apply this to the times of the Messiah, and to the times after the war of Gog and Magog, after which they say there will be no more sorrow and distress; so Kimchi; and to these times it is applied in the Talmud (h); and Aben Ezra says, that all interpreters understand it of the time to come:

Benson Commentary - Isaiah 30:26. The light of the moon shall be as the light of the sun — For constancy and brightness, which, as also the following clause, is to be understood metaphorically, of that glorious and happy state of the church which should take place in future times.

Matthew Poole's Commentary - As the light of the sun, for constancy and brightness; which, as also the following clause, is to be understood metaphorically, of the most glorious and comfortable condition of God’s church, far surpassing what it was in former ages. And so this, as well as other passages in this chapter, concerns the times of the gospel.

 

[keras]

Denigrate the prophesies and believe the old commentators if you like. Doing that is much more comfortable than thinking anything shocking is going to happen.

 

[StanJ]

The Bible prophets are right. I just point out the truth of their prophecy, believe it or not, up to you.

I do not appreciate the video. It is ugly and rude. Why don't you address the issues, rather than making a fool of yourself?

Well as you don't actually SHOW what the prophets say, how would you know they are right?

Really don't care if you appreciate it or not...it was a reasoned response to how I felt about your post....laughable.

 

[StanJ]

Denigrate the prophesies and believe the old commentators if you like. Doing that is much more comfortable than thinking anything shocking is going to happen.

Nobody is denigrating prophets or prophecies keras. You seem to feel not agreeing with you is the same thing, which shows exactly how supercilious you are.

 

[Marcus O'Reillius]

Denigrate the prophesies and believe the old commentators if you like. Doing that is much more comfortable than thinking anything shocking is going to happen.

I don't believe you rabbi keras.

And if exposing your false teaching may seem denigrating to you, it is only because you lack the humility to acknowledge your shortcomings and wisdom to learn when corrected.

 

[keras]

Well as you don't actually SHOW what the prophets say, how would you know they are right?

I have written four books on what the prophets say. All available free on my website.
I know they are right, because God's plan makes a coherent, logical sequence. Unlike mans theories, such as a rapture removal to heaven, that isn't stated anywhere in the Bible.

 

[StanJ]

I have written four books on what the prophets say. All available free on my website.
I know they are right, because God's plan makes a coherent, logical sequence. Unlike mans theories, such as a rapture removal to heaven, that isn't stated anywhere in the Bible.

So to use your rational, everyone who writes a book is right and doesn't make mistakes or doesn't start from a false premise?
The rapture does NOT state those who are go to Heaven forever, so you obviously don't really understand what you say you have proven wrong.

 

[ATP]

I have written four books on what the prophets say. All available free on my website.

Books and websites.