Love who?

[Dan57]

If God hates His enemies, why should we love them?

Who are God's enemies? Those who have enmity towards the Truth/God (James 4:4). If we return hate for hate, we escalate the problem, so Christ instructed us to pray for our enemies, probably because God can correct or change their ways when we can't.

Does God love OUR enemies?

God loves those who love Him and keep His commandments (John 14:21). No, God does not love the enemies of His children (Luke 17:2).

So does God love those He is torturing in hell? Is that a "tough love" kinda thing? We are told to forgive 70 x 7, whether or not they ask for it. But with God He demands we ask for it or else He doesn't forgive. Isn't this a double-standard? Sounds like God demands from us more than He is willing to do Himself?

No one is being tortured in hell, they are awaiting judgement. We are instructed to forgive others if they repent (Luke 17:3-4). We all have debts, so we are expected to forgive others of their debts, just as our Father forgives us when we repent of our trespasses (Matthew 6:15). There's no double standard, Jesus doesn't demand more from us than he did himself.

All my opinion of course

 

[lukethreesix]

Madad said: "In the same way a sinner needs to get right with God or they will perish if they wait to Judgement day."
By "perish" do you mean remain forever?

And you need to see one little but very important word in Luke 12:59, "UNTIL". Jesus uses this word in Matt 5, and Matt 18 as well. Notice in Matthew they are even handed over to the "tormentors" UNTIL!!!
Matt 18 is clearly speaking of judgement day when the king will judge, and in prison, the tormenting will only last "until".
If the prison sentence lasts for eternity, how can they be there only until the pay the debt. Sounds to me Jesus is teaching that the debt can be paid off in prison, then released.

 

[Madad21]

Madad said: "In the same way a sinner needs to get right with God or they will perish if they wait to Judgement day."
By "perish" do you mean remain forever?

And you need to see one little but very important word in Luke 12:59, "UNTIL". Jesus uses this word in Matt 5, and Matt 18 as well. Notice in Matthew they are even handed over to the "tormentors" UNTIL!!!
Matt 18 is clearly speaking of judgement day when the king will judge, and in prison, the tormenting will only last "until".
If the prison sentence lasts for eternity, how can they be there only until the pay the debt. Sounds to me Jesus is teaching that the debt can be paid off in prison, then released.

I can see why in your point of view that you would assume the word "Until" may infer a temporary situation.
But no matter the spiritual lesson Jesus is still using earthly illustrations to get his point across, this obviously so that his audience can relate.

The point being that if a person who knows he needs to make reconciliation does not do so and waits until he goes before the judge, the judge will find him guilty and he will be forced to pay restitution in full no matter what the price. that price being what ever sentence the judge see's fit to hand down and there will be nothing the offender can do to escape it, because by then it will be too late.

The word "Until" in this case really drives home the point that theres no way out of the sentence once its been past down.
So it really is in our best interest to reconcile now on our way to judgment day.

All men are sinners and all are heading for judgement, Jesus says judge for yourselves what is right. If we know God and we know we are guilty by his Law then we know we need to be reconciled.

 

[lukethreesix]

"So it really is in our best interest to reconcile now on our way to judgment day...."

AMEN Brother! Amen. Yes, being reconciled to God now in this life is the greatest thing possible for humans to experience. Do I believe all will be eventually reconciled to God? Yes, the Bible says so in Colossians 1:20. But living our lives away from the father destroys the inheritance he desires to give. Luke 15 shows us that those who serve God inherit the kingdom, the ones who serve their own lusts do not, however when they have nothing left God is still there with open arms celebrating their return.

 

[Madad21]

"So it really is in our best interest to reconcile now on our way to judgment day...."

AMEN Brother! Amen. Yes, being reconciled to God now in this life is the greatest thing possible for humans to experience. Do I believe all will be eventually reconciled to God? Yes, the Bible says so in Colossians 1:20. But living our lives away from the father destroys the inheritance he desires to give. Luke 15 shows us that those who serve God inherit the kingdom, the ones who serve their own lusts do not, however when they have nothing left God is still there with open arms celebrating their return.

Yes Amen my Friend!!

I know you really want to add your everyone gets saved spin, but to be honest I really dont see it in those scriptures you chose.

for example the scripture you used in colossians,
Colossians 1:20
20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.

heres the rest of it.......

Colossians 1:21-23
21 Once you were alienated from God and were enemies in your minds because of[g] your evil behavior.22 But now he has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation— 23 if you continue in your faith, established and firm, and do not move from the hope held out in the gospel.

Did you see the condition Paul emphasizes at the end?
What you said is true.....but, as Paul points out you must be established and firm in your faith.

Luke 15 is a tricky one, I cant honestly see how you got that estimation from any of those parables, can you pick one and explain your commentary?

 

[ajdiamond]

If you knew that God is Spirit (John 4:24)
and that there is One Spirit (Eph 4:4)
and how your spirit is an emanation of that One Spirit
without which none would live, move or even exist (Acts 17:28)
Then you could comprehend how all things will be reconciled
and come Home to God, returning to their Source.

 

[lukethreesix]

"If you continue in your faith..."

Does this mean you can lose salvation "if"...No, I don't think so. However, we can lose rewards and honor.


Luke 15:7, there WILL BE joy in HEAVEN when one sinner REPENTS over the 99 who have NO NEED of repentance.
To me, this can't be talking about this age, but instead the age to come. Notice, Jesus is speaking in future tense "there will be" in heaven. He doesn't say there is joy in heaven, but there will be. Also, do we "righteous" in this age need to repent? Yes! But will we in the next age? No! And look at the number of righteous to sinner, 99 to 1. That surely isn't the ratio today, but instead the other way around 99 sinners to 1 righteous. And again, the righteous in this age are still "in need" of repentance.
This parable is in sync with Rev 22:14-17, where those who are outside the gates of the Holy City are being invited to "come" and take the water of life. And there "will be" joy in heaven when those "younger brothers" repent and come to the father and He will celebrate their return.

 

[Madad21]

If you knew that God is Spirit (John 4:24)
and that there is One Spirit (Eph 4:4)
and how your spirit is an emanation of that One Spirit
without which none would live, move or even exist (Acts 17:28)
Then you could comprehend how all things will be reconciled
and come Home to God, returning to their Source.

Do you believe in Universal salvation as well?
Because thats what this conversation has turned too, I have no doubt we all belong in and too one Spirit, but thats not the current topic.

"If you continue in your faith..."

Does this mean you can lose salvation "if"...No, I don't think so. However, we can lose rewards and honor.

Paul says in Colossons
But now he has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation— 23 if you continue in your faith, established and firm, and do not move from the hope held out in the gospel.

Lets look at what Paul is actually saying here.
"If you continue in your faith"-why would someone not continue in faith if the truly beleived in Christ?
"Established and firm" - why would someone not be established and firm in their faith if they beleived in Christ and his Word?
"Do not move from the hope held out in the Gospel" - why would someone give up on his hope if they beleived in his promise?

This points clearly to a non-believer, someone who might pay lip service for a short while but soon gives up because his heart does not belong to Christ. God said "Whoever believes in my Son shall have everlasting life"
The opposite of Pauls description here is not a "Believer"

Matthew 22:14 For many are called, but few are chosen.”

John 5:24 Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.

2 Peter 1:10
Therefore, brothers, be all the more diligent to make your calling and election sure, for if you practice these qualities you will never fall

Romans 9:27 Isaiah cries out concerning Israel, “aThough the number of the sons of Israel be blike the sand of the sea, it is cthe remnant that will be saved;


Lukethreesix said

Luke 15:7, there WILL BE joy in HEAVEN when one sinner REPENTS over the 99 who have NO NEED of repentance.
To me, this can't be talking about this age, but instead the age to come. Notice, Jesus is speaking in future tense "there will be" in heaven. He doesn't say there is joy in heaven, but there will be. Also, do we "righteous" in this age need to repent? Yes! But will we in the next age? No! And look at the number of righteous to sinner, 99 to 1. That surely isn't the ratio today, but instead the other way around 99 sinners to 1 righteous. And again, the righteous in this age are still "in need" of repentance.
This parable is in sync with Rev 22:14-17, where those who are outside the gates of the Holy City are being invited to "come" and take the water of life. And there "will be" joy in heaven when those "younger brothers" repent and come to the father and He will celebrate their return.


We are all Christs, because he died for the sins of the world (John 1:29))
The 99 sheep in Jesus's parable are his Church and as he promised he guards them like a good shepherd. If the 99 are still in need of repentance as you say then they are not his flock, they would still be lost. If you are one of his flock (the 99) your are already repentant.
The others are the lost sheep (Matthew 15:24 He answered, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel.").
That fact that there is 99 by 1 sheep shows Christs love for the individual. This doesnt mean he loves the other 99 any less or any more then the one, but means to make the one a part of the 99 he already has, and wishes to do so with all of his lost sheep.
In fact the 99 by 1 is more resemblant of the full number of prdestained saved. You will notice that 99 plus 1 is a whole number. 99 isnt the completion it needs the one to make it whole ( Ephesians 1:11, Romans 8:30,Romans 11:25-26,)

You referred to
Revelation 22:14-17

[SIZE=.75em]14 “Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city.[/SIZE] [SIZE=.75em]15 Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.[/SIZE]


[SIZE=.75em]16 [/SIZE]“I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you[SIZE=.65em][a][/SIZE] this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star.”
[SIZE=.75em]17 [/SIZE]The Spirit and the bride say, “Come!” And let the one who hears say, “Come!” Let the one who is thirsty come; and let the one who wishes take the free gift of the water of life.


,

The Dogs out side neither hear nor are they thirsty, that is way they are outside.​

Rev 2:7 Whoever has ears, let them hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To the one who is victorious, I will give the right to eat from the tree of life, which is in the paradise of God.

Matthew 5:6 Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they will be filled.

 

[lukethreesix]

You just don't get it....we love our enemies because that's what God does. Do we only forgive "if" they repent? No! We forgive in spite of their unwillingness to change. By our constant love towards them, this is what has the power to turn their hard hearts. Romans 12:20-21, this is how God will destroy evil: with good! not more evil....

 

[Madad21]

You just don't get it....we love our enemies because that's what God does. Do we only forgive "if" they repent? No! We forgive in spite of their unwillingness to change. By our constant love towards them, this is what has the power to turn their hard hearts. Romans 12:20-21, this is how God will destroy evil: with good! not more evil....

I was answering your previous statement.

But now you want to ignore all I have taken the time to show you and revert back to the original topic.
Why is that Lukethreesix?, why cant you argue the scriptures you say prove your point?

Of course we dont forgive just because someone repents, why do you constantly twist my words around and the Word of God?

And heres yet another scripture you have twisted out of context
Romans 12:20-21
New International Version (NIV)


[SIZE=.75em]20 [/SIZE]On the contrary:

“If your enemy is hungry, feed him;
if he is thirsty, give him something to drink.
In doing this, you will heap burning coals on his head.”[SIZE=.65em][a][/SIZE][SIZE=.65em](A)[/SIZE]

[SIZE=.75em]21 [/SIZE]Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.


Tell me Lukethreesix, why did you purposely leave that sentence out like you have done with many other scriptures?

what are the hot coals burning upon his head?.....Gods Love, or Gods Wrath?

We are told to love our enemies, because judgement belongs to God, who's wrath is upon the unrepentant.

Why does our forgiveness of them heap hots coals upon their heads?

Do you think it might add to their conviction in the eyes of God...of course it does!!!

Why do you think we are not supposed to act eye for an eye?

The answer is so that we are seen as righteous and above evil, otherwise we are no better then they.


The only thing I dont get is how you can get it all so horribly wrong.

Peace mike

 

[lukethreesix]

"You err, not knowing the scriptures nor the power of God."

Until the Spirit opens your eyes you will never see. Like a horse with leather blinders can only see a small view, once those blinders are taken off a much bigger picture emerges. When your ready God will remove them.

 

[Madad21]

"You err, not knowing the scriptures nor the power of God."

Until the Spirit opens your eyes you will never see. Like a horse with leather blinders can only see a small view, once those blinders are taken off a much bigger picture emerges. When your ready God will remove them.

So your not going to answer the questions then? not even one?
Could you if you tried?
why do you run away?

So now Im blind and dont know the scriptures, is this your cop out?

Who's the one who ignores half a scripture and only picks out the lines that back up their theology?
I will give you a clue....not me.
How do you expect anyone to believe what you say when you do this?

My friend God is steadfast and we can stand on every word.
But you muddy it with what you say. dont you think this is actually a threat to the gospel proclaimed my Jesus Christ, are you not leading others astray with such dealings? these are Gods children you threaten dont you know.
You pick and choose what part of scripture to believe and which part to completely ignore in this way you take away and add to the gospel, how can you do this in good conscious, doesnt this set off alarm bells with you, and if not, for the love of God why not?

As for me, you dont know me and what I have had to endure in my lifetime
I know what I felt when I asked Christ in to my life what He did to my heart that night and thats something you nor anyone else can take from me, on that memory I cling too tightly with both hands and it gives me the hope i need to get through everyday in the confidence I have in His promise. Sir I dont just believe in Jesus, i know for a fact Jesus and all he says is true.
I know where I came from and I know how much Christ has done in my life. You can sit back a judge me all you like, you can do it until your blue in the face it doesnt change a thing about my relationship with my Lord and Savior who DOESN'T LIE to me when I ask for his gospel truth in my life.
I asked God to open his word to me a long time ago and ever since my knowledge of spiritual things has increased ten fold, I know what I know because the spirit of wisdom blesses me. I pray everyday for it and to know the truth of God. I have had hard lessons as well as everlasting hope. Why would he lie to me when I look in to his Word with an open mind and open heart to receive and learn and grow?
Are you suggesting God is not steadfast in what he says when he says "Seek and you will find" are you calling him a liar?
I love Jesus deeply, more then you know. And I trust in his Word as it is written, there is nothing hidden from me.
But if it makes you feel better to say that i am blind. because you can not fight back against the truth I hold up in front of your face then so be it. Im not the one who will have to answer for it.

Peace Mike

 

[lukethreesix]

we both can read Isaiah 45 and see it differently. I used to believe as you do, but God has revealed to me I was wrong. Now I speak the truth He has shown me, and those with ears to hear will hear.

 

[Madad21]

now if your finished side stepping the questions I would like to get back to the conversation you said in your last post

Romans 12:20-21, this is how God will destroy evil: with good! not more evil....

Romans 12:20-21
New International Version (NIV)


[SIZE=.75em]20 [/SIZE]On the contrary:

“If your enemy is hungry, feed him;
if he is thirsty, give him something to drink.
In doing this, you will heap burning coals on his head.”[SIZE=.65em][a][/SIZE][SIZE=.65em](A)[/SIZE]

[SIZE=.75em]21 [/SIZE]Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with

As I asked you before. What are the hot coals burning on his head?
Its an easy enough question

we both can read Isaiah 45 and see it differently. I used to believe as you do, but God has revealed to me I was wrong. Now I speak the truth He has shown me, and those with ears to hear will hear.

stop saying you once beleived like I do, thats an insult to me and Christ who word is unchanging.

 

[lukethreesix]

Does every christian have the same knowledge at the same time? No. We are shown new things as we grow and we are all on a different level. Some day Eph 4:13 will happen, but for now hold on to what you know and know that what you know will change. Don't Be afraid of learning that what we once thought was right was wrong. I used to hold to what you believe with all my heart, but now am so thankful I was wrong.
OK, its looks like we might be posting a little too fast....
Romans 12:20-21, I see the good (giving drink to a thristy enemy) as the coals of fire. Doing good will overcome the evil. We or God does not overcome evil with doing more evil? But we can pour coals of fire upon theirs heads with our goodness and mercy and compassion and grace. Love will win in the end. Love changes hearts, not torture. Torture can get you to say what the one who is torturing you wants you to say, but it doesn't change the heart. ONLY love and mercy, doing good to the enemy can and will change their hearts.
OK, its looks like we might be posting a little too fast....
Romans 12:20-21, I see the good (giving drink to a thristy enemy) as the coals of fire. Doing good will overcome the evil. We or God does not overcome evil with doing more evil? But we can pour coals of fire upon theirs heads with our goodness and mercy and compassion and grace. Love will win in the end. Love changes hearts, not torture. Torture can get you to say what the one who is torturing you wants you to say, but it doesn't change the heart. ONLY love and mercy, doing good to the enemy can and will change their hearts.
Oops? It posted twice...guess God really wanted it said?

 

[ajdiamond]

As I asked you before. What are the hot coals burning on his head?
Its an easy enough question

Well, it's obviously not literal. So, coals represent something. There's alot of references to coals in the bible so the symbol is probably interpreted for us within scripture. The effect of the coals may be this:

Is 6:6-7 Then flew one of the seraphims unto me, having a live coal in his hand, which he had taken with the tongs from off the altar: And he laid it upon my mouth, and said, Lo, this hath touched thy lips; and thine iniquity is taken away, and thy sin purged.

http://www.blueletterbible.org/search/search.cfm?Criteria=coals&t=KJV#s=s_primary_0_1

 

[Madad21]

Does every christian have the same knowledge at the same time? No. We are shown new things as we grow and we are all on a different level. Some day Eph 4:13 will happen, but for now hold on to what you know and know that what you know will change. Don't Be afraid of learning that what we once thought was right was wrong. I used to hold to what you believe with all my heart, but now am so thankful I was wrong.

Hang on a minute. Your saying that as my knowledge in the word progresses one day I will be shown that all I have learnt through the spirit was actually wrong, and that will become the next enlightened level you are apparently on.
which just so happens to be the same level that goes from reading a scripture and understanding it as it meant to taking it out of context and not being able to defend it properly. thats the Level I am waiting to aspire to is it?
and once again because you like saying "I was once like you" you assume to put yourself on a much higher level of understanding then me even though I have no trouble understanding and defending scripture while you go around in circles twisting and side stepping.

You where never where I am today, and I would say it is because of your difficulty understanding scripture that you have ended up where you are, because if you truly understood scripture before your so called enlightening, you would never turn this way or that. So please stop saying you where once like me becasue that is becoming increasingly annoying and further more its a very bad side step excuse every time you cant explain what you say you know.
I know this because JW's and Mormons do that all the time. that same old "Well I once beleived like you until my eyes were opened, I cant explain it to you until God is ready to reveal it to you." it really grinds my gears, people just love to raise themselves up when they are cornered.

Romans 12:20-21, I see the good (giving drink to a thristy enemy) as the coals of fire. Doing good will overcome the evil. We or God does not overcome evil with doing more evil? But we can pour coals of fire upon theirs heads with our goodness and mercy and compassion and grace. Love will win in the end. Love changes hearts, not torture. Torture can get you to say what the one who is torturing you wants you to say, but it doesn't change the heart. ONLY love and mercy, doing good to the enemy can and will change their hearts.
Oops? It posted twice...guess God really wanted it said?

This is a good example of what I mean.

Yes doing good over comes evil and yes by us loving our enemies we pour coals on their heads that is agreed and obvious in the teaching.
Now answer the rest of the question, I ask you again for the third time.

Why are their Hot coals on his head, why are they there????????


ajdiamond, on 07 Feb 2014 - 01:32 AM, said:
ajdiamond, on 07 Feb 2014 - 01:32 AM, said:

Well, it's obviously not literal. So, coals represent something. There's alot of references to coals in the bible so the symbol is probably interpreted for us within scripture. The effect of the coals may be this:

Is 6:6-7 Then flew one of the seraphims unto me, having a live coal in his hand, which he had taken with the tongs from off the altar: And he laid it upon my mouth, and said, Lo, this hath touched thy lips; and thine iniquity is taken away, and thy sin purged.

http://www.bluelette...s=s_primary_0_1

Ok, so in your estimation the Hot coal resembles the purging of sin...right?

So with that in mind, what would be the significance of the heaping of hot coals upon somebody's head who is an enemy to you who despite his persecution of you you show love?

[SIZE=.75em]17 [/SIZE]Do not repay anyone evil for evil.[SIZE=.65em](D)[/SIZE] Be careful to do what is right in the eyes of everyone.[SIZE=.65em](E)[/SIZE] [SIZE=.75em]18 [/SIZE]If it is possible, as far as it depends on you, live at peace with everyone.[SIZE=.65em](F)[/SIZE] [SIZE=.75em]19 [/SIZE]Do not take revenge,[SIZE=.65em](G)[/SIZE] my dear friends, but leave room for God’s wrath, for it is written: “It is mine to avenge; I will repay,”[SIZE=.65em][b][/SIZE][SIZE=.65em](H)[/SIZE]says the Lord. [SIZE=.75em]20 [/SIZE]On the contrary:

“If your enemy is hungry, feed him;
if he is thirsty, give him something to drink.
In doing this, you will heap burning coals on his head.”[SIZE=.65em][c][/SIZE][SIZE=.65em](I)[/SIZE]

[SIZE=.75em]21 [/SIZE]Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.


Now with what you just said in mind and what is pointed out in this scripture, what is the obvious answer?

 

[lukethreesix]

Are you saying knowledge in the word does not progress?

The coals are the Spirit moving their hearts and minds.

 

[ajdiamond]

There were burning coals on the altar in the temple (Lev 16:12). Because we are the temple of God, there are coals or burning coals within us too. Others (our "enemies") are a temple of God as well. The passage indicates that the act of kindness is like us giving burning coals to another. In that, if their coals are not burning, our burning coal will kindle the coals in them. Or, if their coals are weakly burning, our burning coal will strengthen the fire within them. Burning coals in the temple seem to be a "good" thing and part of normal temple operations.

We are the temple, so they should be burning in us. The heaping of coals is beneficial, not "God's wrath".

 

[Madad21]

Are you saying knowledge in the word does not progress?

The coals are the Spirit moving their hearts and minds.

Another side step