Lukewarm as Indifference Toward God - He prefers Cold to Indifferent

[St. SteVen]

Perhaps you are already aware of this?

Thanks to @O'Darby for pointing this out to me.
In the past I had always read over the passage, not stopping to REALLY analyze it.

As for atheists, many are closer to God than their Christian counterparts. They are at least hot or cold and not lukewarm and afraid. A sincere exploration of atheism is one route to God.

OMGoodness!

Everyone (hopefully) is familiar with the "lukewarm" passage about the church in Laodicea .
Oftentimes related to the modern church of today. Seems appropriate. Text at the bottom of this OP.

That "lukewarm" passage states that God (Jesus) prefers EITHER hot or cold to lukewarm.

I had always assumed HOT was God's preference. He left room for COLD. ???

If we define HOT as love and COLD as Hate, indifference is the extreme in the middle.
Personally, I would prefer that someone hate me instead of acting indifferent.
At least hatred acknowledges my existence, Indifference recons me as nonexistent.

And I think this is the thrust here.
God would prefer hatred to indifferent lukewarmness.
"... having a form of godliness but denying its power...." - 2 Timothy 3:5 NIV

Revelation 3:14-17 NIV
“To the angel of the church in Laodicea write:
These are the words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the ruler of God’s creation.
15 I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot. I wish you were either one or the other!
16 So, because you are lukewarm—neither hot nor cold—I am about to spit you out of my mouth.
17 You say, ‘I am rich; I have acquired wealth and do not need a thing.’
But you do not realize that you are wretched, pitiful, poor, blind and naked.

/

 

[O'Darby]

Hey, that O'Darby is one insightful pseudo-intellectual pseudo-Christian pseudo-theologian! I never miss his blog!

Those who are hot or cold, it seems to me, are at least grappling with the questions that may lead to belief. A sincere atheist quest deals with the exact same issues as a sincere spiritual quest. Either path may lead to belief.

The lukewarm individual - and I have known some - jiust doesn't care. The camp of the lukewarm includes many atheists, Christians and everything in between. They land where they land, and stay where they land, without ever asking or attempting to answer the central questions of existence.

The super-duper "real" Christians on forums such as this think they ARE the "hot" ("on fire" for the Lord) and everyone else is lukewarm at best and mostly cold. This is certainly one version of hot, but I tend to see hot and cold more in terms of involvement and engagement with the questions that Christianity attempts to answer. This is the only interpretation of "I wish you were either hot or cold" that makes sense to me.

 

[lforrest]

If Jesus prefers cold over lukewarm that doesn't mean he will tolerate cold.

 

[St. SteVen]

If Jesus prefers cold over lukewarm that doesn't mean he will tolerate cold.

I think he has long-johns.

You've read the Gospel of John, I John, II John and III John and the Revelation, correct?
That seems plenty long to me. - LOL

/

 

[lforrest]

I think he has long-johns.
View attachment 43476
You've read the Gospel of John, I John, II John and III John and the Revelation, correct?
That seems plenty long to me. - LOL

/

Got any verses that say hating our neighbor is OK?

Granted someone who hates may be closer to repentance than someone who is confident in God's approving of their apathy.

But neither keeps Jesus' commandments.

The reason for the distinction?
1. Their hearts are far from Jesus despite their words.
2. Reflects poorly on Christians, God is blasphemed because of them.
3. Matthew 7:22-29 it is gonna happen to many.

 

[St. SteVen]

Got any verses that say hating our neighbor is OK?

On the contrary.

.

 

[St. SteVen]

Granted someone who hates may be closer to repentance than someone who is confident in God's approving of their apathy.

Agree.

So, what is your take on the key scripture? (Revelation 3:14-17)
Who are the cold that God (Jesus) prefers to the lukewarm? (in the church)

/

 

[lforrest]

So, what is your take on the key scripture? (Revelation 3:14-17)
Who are the cold that God (Jesus) prefers to the lukewarm? (in the church)

/

Those who have made a choice for the world over God.

 

[St. SteVen]

St. SteVen said:
So, what is your take on the key scripture? (Revelation 3:14-17)
Who are the cold that God (Jesus) prefers to the lukewarm? (in the church)

Those who have made a choice for the world over God.

Wow.
You think God (Jesus) prefers that to lukewarm?
Isn't choosing the world over God a dangerous position to be in?
The same as rejecting Jesus, right?

/

 

[lforrest]

St. SteVen said:
So, what is your take on the key scripture? (Revelation 3:14-17)
Who are the cold that God (Jesus) prefers to the lukewarm? (in the church)

Wow.
You think God (Jesus) prefers that to lukewarm?
Isn't choosing the world over God a dangerous position to be in?
The same as rejecting Jesus, right?

/

It is like The Parable of the Two Sons

28 “What do you think? There was a man who had two sons. He went to the first and said, ‘Son, go and work today in the vineyard.’​

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29 “‘I will not,’ he answered, but later he changed his mind and went.​

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30 “Then the father went to the other son and said the same thing. He answered, ‘I will, sir,’ but he did not go.​

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31 “Which of the two did what his father wanted?”​

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“The first,” they answered.​

And the cold one would be like a third son who said he will not go and did whatever he wanted.

 

[O'Darby]

Agree.

So, what is your take on the key scripture? (Revelation 3:14-17)
Who are the cold that God (Jesus) prefers to the lukewarm? (in the church)

/

The Revelation passage makes clear that the lukewarm are those who say "I am rich, I have prospered, I need nothing." The cold are not necessarily within the church. My understanding is that they are the ones who actively oppose the church and Jesus' message. The point, I think, is that they are at least engaged. If they are interested and engaged, even in opposition, there is some possibility of reaching them and making them hot. The lukewarm who are self-satisfied and indifferent are beyond reach. This has been my real-world experience. Dialoguing with a sincere and well-informed atheist is far more rewarding and has far more potential than attempting to dialogue with someone who simply has no interest in the issues. How often in romantic relationships does love blossom out of what had seemed to be hate? The hate was at least an emotional engagement that can lead to better things.

 

[St. SteVen]

The Revelation passage makes clear that the lukewarm are those who say "I am rich, I have prospered, I need nothing." The cold are not necessarily within the church. My understanding is that they are the ones who actively oppose the church and Jesus' message. The point, I think, is that they are at least engaged. If they are interested and engaged, even in opposition, there is some possibility of reaching them and making them hot. The lukewarm who are self-satisfied and indifferent are beyond reach. This has been my real-world experience. Dialoguing with a sincere and well-informed atheist is far more rewarding and has far more potential than attempting to dialogue with someone who simply has no interest in the issues. How often in romantic relationships does love blossom out of what had seemed to be hate? The hate was at least an emotional engagement that can lead to better things.

Agree.
I was discussing this topic with my wife and she commented that an atheist that hates God
is actually acknowledging his existence. Some definite cognitive dissonance there.
Which "can lead to better things", as you said. Lukewarm is like quicksand.

My observation is that the person who hates God (claims to) has a reason to do so.
Some disappointment with God. And I believe God would intend to mend that relationship.
The Good Shepherd carries the lost sheep back to the fold where there is rejoicing in heaven.

/

 

[O'Darby]

Agree.
I was discussing this topic with my wife and she commented that an atheist that hates God
is actually acknowledging his existence. Some definite cognitive dissonance there.
Which "can lead to better things", as you said. Lukewarm is like quicksand.

My observation is that the person who hates God (claims to) has a reason to do so.
Some disappointment with God. And I believe God would intend to mend that relationship.
The Good Shepherd carries the lost sheep back to the fold where there is rejoicing in heaven.

/

Right. That is a standard challenge to atheists: Why are you so enraged and emotional about a God you don't think exists? That's one of the points I make in my blog - they are really enraged at the cartoon God of bibliolatry.

What I Learned From the Atheists

Lessons from a decade of dialoguing with internet atheists.

www.christianityboard.com

 

[St. SteVen]

Right. That is a standard challenge to atheists: Why are you so enraged and emotional about a God you don't think exists? That's one of the points I make in my blog - they are really enraged at the cartoon God of bibliolatry.

What I Learned From the Atheists

Lessons from a decade of dialoguing with internet atheists.

www.christianityboard.com

Wow.
That was a very good blog post.
You could write a book and do a lecture tour.

These challenges we bring are important (I think) but the church doesn't like to have their world rocked.

/

 

[O'Darby]

Wow.
That was a very good blog post.
You could write a book and do a lecture tour.

These challenges we bring are important (I think) but the church doesn't like to have their world rocked.

/

Thanks much. It appears that at least a few people are viewing my blog, although to my surprise no one has commented on or challenged anything I've said.

 

[St. SteVen]

Thanks much. It appears that at least a few people are viewing my blog, although to my surprise no one has commented on or challenged anything I've said.

I didn't see a way to do that. (comment) Only share options.
I might send a link to my agnostic friend. A lot of what you said, especially about scientism applies.

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[O'Darby]

I didn't see a way to do that. (comment) Only share options.
I might send a link to my agnostic friend. A lot of what you said, especially about scientism applies.

/

Weird - maybe I can fix it. Thanks again.

 

[St. SteVen]

Weird - maybe I can fix it. Thanks again.

Off topic (apologies to self) but what are your general thoughts about Yoga and Tai Chi?

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[O'Darby]

Off topic (apologies to self) but what are your general thoughts about Yoga and Tai Chi?

/

Voila, as it happens I am at this very moment reading a new biography of Paramahansa Yogananda, author (in 1946) of the HUGELY influential Autobiography of a Yogi (Steve Jobs bought 500 copies and had them distributed at his funeral). There is no question Yogananda was the Real Deal. I remeber reading the Bhagavad Gita and thinking "What's the big deal?" Then I read Yogananda's profound commentary and said "Oh, MY GOD!" None of which is responsive to what you asked, but I have found Taoist, Buddhist and Hindu writings tremendously beneficial to my own Christianity.

I've never engaged in any practices like Zen, Yoga or Tai Chi. I have nothing against them per se. But to be serious about them is very demanding and I just don't have the patience. If I were inclined, I'd adopt some sort of Christian version as per our discussions about communion which the knee-jerkers here always want to equate to Eastern meditation.

 

[Papa Smurf]

Hello @St. SteVen, I remember being taught that the "hot" and "cold" water spoken of in Revelation 3 did not have the same meaning to those living in the 1st Century as they do to us today (and that makes sense when you consider the fact that the Lord Jesus wished that the people in the Laodicean church where not lukewarm, but either "hot" ~OR~ "cold" instead. IOW, "hot" and "cold" would have both been understood as something that was good back then (something that was useful), especially in Laodicia.

Here's an online Q & A commentary that confirms what I was taught (the text below, and the text of the video below it are the same, just FYI, so you can read and/or listen to them).

Q. Why did Jesus speak so strongly against lukewarm faith?​

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A. In Revelation 3:14–21, the Lord is describing the “lukewarm” heart attitude of those in the Laodicean church, an attitude manifested by their deeds. The Laodiceans were neither cold nor hot in relation to God, just lukewarm. Hot water can cleanse and purify; cold water can refresh and enliven. But lukewarm water carries no similar value. The Laodiceans understood the Lord’s analogy because their city drinking water came over an aqueduct from a spring six miles to the south, and it arrived disgustingly lukewarm. Laodicean water was not hot like the nearby hot springs that people bathed in, nor was it refreshingly cold for drinking. It was lukewarm, ~good for nothing~. In fact, it was nauseating, and that was the Lord’s response to the Laodiceans—they sickened Him, and He said, “I am about to spit you out of my mouth” (verse 16).​

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The letter to the church at Laodicea is the harshest of the seven letters to the churches in Asia Minor. By His indictment of their “deeds” (Revelation 3:15), Jesus makes it clear that this is a dead church. The members of this church see themselves as “rich” and self-sufficient, but the Lord sees them as “wretched, pitiful, poor, blind and naked” (verse 17). Their lukewarm faith was hypocritical; their church was full of unconverted, pretend Christians.​

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Jesus frequently equates deeds with a person’s true spiritual state: “By their fruit you will recognize them,” and “Every good tree bears good fruit” (Matthew 7:16–17). Clearly, the lukewarm deeds of the Laodiceans were not in keeping with true salvation. The deeds of the true believer will be “hot” or “cold”—that is, they will benefit the world in some way and reflect the spiritual passion of a life transformed. Lukewarm deeds, however—those done without joy, without love, and without the fire of the Spirit—do harm to the watching world. The lukewarm are those who claim to know God but live as though He doesn’t exist. They may go to church and practice a form of religion, but their inner state is one of self-righteous complacency. They claim to be Christians, but their hearts are unchanged, and their hypocrisy is sickening to God.​

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The fact that the lukewarm individuals to whom Christ speaks are not saved is seen in the picture of Jesus standing outside of the church (Revelation 3:20). He has not yet been welcomed into their midst. In love, the Lord rebukes and disciplines them, commanding them to repent (verse 19). He sees their lukewarm attitudes as “shameful nakedness” that needs to be clothed in the white garments of true righteousness (verse 18). He urges them to be earnest, or zealous, and commit themselves totally to Him. Our Lord is gracious and long-suffering and gives the lukewarm time to repent.​

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The Laodiceans enjoyed material prosperity that, coupled with a semblance of true religion, led them to a false sense of security and independence (see Mark 10:23). The expression “I am rich; I have acquired wealth” (Revelation 3:17) stresses that the wealth attained came though self-exertion. Spiritually, they had great needs. A self-sufficient attitude and lukewarm faith are constant dangers when people live lives of ease and prosperity. ~Why did Jesus speak so strongly against lukewarm faith? | GotQuestions.org​

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3 min 48 sec​

God bless you!

--Papa Smurf