made to believe and what to believe

[bbyrd009]

you should understand, Christian are not required to understand what you believe or have faith in, its important to the Christian that he believe on Christ Jesus and what He said and did, and how what He said and did that fulfills the OT. and share that with those who do or desire to.

you should understand that those who manifest Christ do not need to practice religion, and that most of the condemnation in Scripture is reserved for the religious. Understand that the Good Samaritan--or the First Son--would not agree with your belief system, and are not interested in going to your church to talk about Jesus--they just know how to love their neighbors.

and i understand this sounds like heresy to a Christian who has been raised to understand that they must pick the right religion in order to be accepted, ok, and that everyone who does not agree with them or share their vernacular is lost. So i can only suggest that one reflect upon these and make up their own minds.

your beliefs that might be otherwise to the Christian faith condemn you

if they are indeed "otherwise," yes, but i am comfortable being included with the excluded, the Good Samaritans and First Sons of the earth, and Christianity is a belief system, not a "faith" to me anyway.

Imo you at some point must confront that your belief system requires that everyone agree with you to be saved, isn't this correct?

 

[bbyrd009]

There are those who don't believe in Jesus because they've never heard of Jesus. What happens to them?

hey, what about those who have heard of Jesus and associate Him with the Christians who are drone bombing their village every night, and would spit on a picture of Jesus if you showed them one? Who i suspect are legion, and growing by leaps and bounds right now?

 

[bbyrd009]

who decided to bring a child into the world and who is responsible for what that child should believe, Job? God is to be sot after, and inquired of, correct? man separated himself by his own judgement, and sustains that separation if he rejects Christ. its the Mercy of God toward that brings that message to them, seek God's Mercy for the already condemned and maybe you can put a dent into that group that would otherwise not see God.

iow "i, the Priest on the other side of the road, will convert the Good Samaritan, lest he be lost" lol, ok.

 

[bbyrd009]

Yes and it doesn't address the question.

Are those who don't have a belief in Jesus condemned even though they've never heard of Him?



This question is open to everyone.

l

of course not, as hopefully is made plain. God can make "believers" from rocks. satan believes, too. Beliefs are what come out of your mouth when someone asks you religious questions; faith is what you do with them.

 

[bbyrd009]

the life one is born of is what God sees you as, so the reason Jesus came that we may be born of the Spirit of God and now God sees you through or as the Life that Jesus has. I didn't make it that way, nor is it my judgmental attitude or some accusation like that. that's the way Jesus says it is, so be it.

so then Muslims are in, right, because they believe in Jesus too, but Dharmies...um, Hindus, they are out, like that, right?

 

[DPMartin]

In courtroom language, if there is no condemnation then it means that I have been found innocent. In the case of the gospel, all charges of my every sin have been dropped, or washed away because they have been atoned for by the blood of Jesus Christ. Therefore, as a believer my soul will face no judgement because Jesus already paid for the ransom. I would hate to be the one that believed not on judgement day. So yes, thanks for proving my point. God tossing someone in the Lake of Fire solely for not believing knowing full well that he could have never heard of the gospel to start with does not make him a just God. The real throne judgement of every soul that believed not will involve far more than them simply not believing, but practically their entire life experience.

na, na na na


as I explained before
you are born into sin and condemnation when you are born into the world, though you've done nothing to be condemned. you received the life that was given you. and no one especially God is obligated to change that, no more then He is obligated to give a dog a cat's life because it might be better. you didn't ask to be born into the world nor are you deserving of anything, even your next breath. if God has the Mercy toward you to reveal the Truth to you then be thankful to accept it, and share such with others. but that doesn't mean its unfair for others. He is the Judge on who shall and shall not hear.

to hear the gospel is the mercy of God toward the hearer. God's choice. the condemnation came to whom ever via the life they received when they came into the world, if anybody be righteous enough to save his own soul let him prove it to God. as Paul teaches that all men are responsible for seeking out and knowing that God is, and ignorance is no excuse.

by grace through faith in the Word of God made flesh is the only salvation and as Jesus explains no one is drawn to Him unless the Father draws that person. so no on stands righteous or innocent unless they believe. if the never believe because they have never heard the Word of God. according to Paul that could very well be on them.

no one comes to the Father but through the Son, the Word of God, that is none negotiable. all of creation is in contact with the Creator and Judge through His Word, His Word is LORD, there's no way around it.

how it is that on doesn't hear but is yet guilty and it is just for God to leave them to their condemnation is simply there is what God says to man and then there is man's interpretation of what God says to man. and the only reason man would seek interpretation is to go by his own judgement of what God said. placing his own judgements of what is good and evil, over God's Judgements of what is good and evil.

the parent teaches the child the same and the child follows the same, keeping themselves in the same condemnation. the fool can't hear because he thinks himself to be the judge of what God says, and God sees the hearts of men like we see each others faces, and He can see who will listen should He speak to them, God doesn't speak to them who don't listen.

 

[Helen]

I believe Paul is making reference to backsliding christians in that verse. In fact, the rest of the chapter is about backsliders and God letting them go.

What are your thoughts? Would you like to hear more?
m

:) I'm listening ...I have never ever heard that verse as NOT referring to all mankind. God show us all, even those in the darkest jungles, His awesomeness through the creation around them...so that no man is without excuse when they stand before Him.
Your thoughts?

 

[Dcopymope]

na, na na na


as I explained before
you are born into sin and condemnation when you are born into the world, though you've done nothing to be condemned. you received the life that was given you. and no one especially God is obligated to change that, no more then He is obligated to give a dog a cat's life because it might be better. you didn't ask to be born into the world nor are you deserving of anything, even your next breath. if God has the Mercy toward you to reveal the Truth to you then be thankful to accept it, and share such with others. but that doesn't mean its unfair for others. He is the Judge on who shall and shall not hear.

to hear the gospel is the mercy of God toward the hearer. God's choice. the condemnation came to whom ever via the life they received when they came into the world, if anybody be righteous enough to save his own soul let him prove it to God. as Paul teaches that all men are responsible for seeking out and knowing that God is, and ignorance is no excuse.

by grace through faith in the Word of God made flesh is the only salvation and as Jesus explains no one is drawn to Him unless the Father draws that person. so no on stands righteous or innocent unless they believe. if the never believe because they have never heard the Word of God. according to Paul that could very well be on them.

no one comes to the Father but through the Son, the Word of God, that is none negotiable. all of creation is in contact with the Creator and Judge through His Word, His Word is LORD, there's no way around it.

how it is that on doesn't hear but is yet guilty and it is just for God to leave them to their condemnation is simply there is what God says to man and then there is man's interpretation of what God says to man. and the only reason man would seek interpretation is to go by his own judgement of what God said. placing his own judgements of what is good and evil, over God's Judgements of what is good and evil.

the parent teaches the child the same and the child follows the same, keeping themselves in the same condemnation. the fool can't hear because he thinks himself to be the judge of what God says, and God sees the hearts of men like we see each others faces, and He can see who will listen should He speak to them, God doesn't speak to them who don't listen.

Out of all of this babble, the only point I see you are trying to make is this: That the Lake of Fire was meant for God's image bearers. Is that the idea that I'm supposed to be getting out of this lecture? After all, according to you, we were condemned the moment we were born because of our sinful nature inherited from Adam. I would like to see your definition backed up with scripture, because your definition of the word condemned is entirely different than that of scripture and doesn't make for a God that is as merciful as his word says he is one hundred times over. If we were condemned the moment we were born, then Jesus Christ would not have said the following:

(Luke 18:13-17) "And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner. {14} I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted. {15} And they brought unto him also infants, that he would touch them: but when his disciples saw it, they rebuked them. {16} But Jesus called them unto him, and said, Suffer little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God. {17} Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child shall in no wise enter therein."

If its really as simple as someone who is and isn't a believer, or even mentally capable of believing, then he would just skip the throne judgement, skip the separation of the wheat's and tares that he promised he would do, and simply toss every single unbeliever into the Lake of Fire and be done with it. But, of course he won't, because then he would be a very unloving, absolute jerk, and quite a double minded one at that, since he stated on no uncertain terms that the Lake of Fire was never meant for his image bearers in the first place, but a place reserved specifically for Satan and his angels.

(Matthew 25:41-46) "Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: {42} For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: {43} I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. {44} Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? {45} Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. {46} And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal."

Yes, he is indeed the final judge on who does and doesn't hear the gospel, among the living, for the message must be spread among all nations, tongues and tribes. Even at the very end of days, he makes sure this occurs before he pours out his seven vial judgement, because it is not his wish that any soul perish.

(Revelation 14:6-7) "And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people, {7} Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters."

 

[bbyrd009]

na, na na na

so then, we're done?

 

[bbyrd009]

Is that the idea that I'm supposed to be getting out of this lecture?

well, i would not be expecting any actual interaction lol

 

[Dcopymope]

well, i would not be expecting any actual interaction lol

Apparently not, but he should since this all started with a question from 'Job' concerning the fate of every soul minus the believer who never had a chance to hear the gospel. Its a question that I was once asked about before a while ago that made me come to the realization of the true message of the new testament thats hardly preached. Usually, all you get are promises of hell fire judgement unless they believe from those that spread the message, and according to this guy, God is such a despotic jerk that he through the trouble in making us his image bearers just to toss them away in the fire like a dirty piece of toilet paper, because we were allegedly condemned from birth.

 

[Job]

God show us all, even those in the darkest jungles, His awesomeness through the creation around them...so that no man is without excuse when they stand before Him.
Your thoughts?

It sounds really good..........but...

My personal belief is that a nonbeliever cannot come to know God by simply observing the world around him. I didn't discover who God was until I picked up a bible. I knew there was something out there but I didn't know what.

My belief is that nonbelievers will be judged in the same manner as believers. People will be judged according to the contents of their hearts. The heart is like a spiritual file cabinet that holds every piece of information of who we are. It contains our true motives for acting the way we do. The heart is who we are and is incapable of lying.

Here's a passage that addresses those who have never heard of God and how they will be judged in the end.

Romans 2
11 For there is no partiality with God.
12 For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without law, and as many as have sinned in the law will be judged by the law
13 (for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified;
14 for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves,
15 who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them)
16 in the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel.


Verse 15 is an indication of God's method of passing judgement. He searches the heart. No one gets judged according to their works. They are judged on the motives behind those works. (their thoughts accusing or excusing)


Just something I thought was worth sharing. I'd like to hear your thoughts on this.

o

 

[Helen]

Job.
That's good, I like that. Agree. :)
I somehow thought that you were saying that people who have not heard the Gospel can't get saved without "accepting Jesus as their saviour"..and saying the "sinners prayer." I know that some Christian do believe that...they are legalistic and believe if a person has not come to the Father and acknowledged the Blood and Sacrifice of the Cross...they will be damned. Which to me is stupid, as that would make God an unjust Tyrant. Many have never heard what we know as The Gospel...even in civilized lands, let alone the jungles etc.

Like I said before...I have always used Roman 1.20 which I quoted above...but I like yours, and will add it to my ammunition for the legalists.
Thanks..

PS, did you ever read , or read to your kids C.S Lewis' The Last Battle' It the last book in the Narnia Chronicles.
I really liked how he showed ( like you said) God judges the heart...
In the story, Aslan the Lion ( type of God) says to the man- "You thought that you were searching for ( forgotten the name of some god) but, it was NOT him that your heart longed for...but ME.."

Our God is well able to know who "would have" followed Him with all of his heart, had he ever 'heard' had the Good News.

 

[Job]

:) I'm listening ...I have never ever heard that verse as NOT referring to all mankind.

I used to think that to and then one day I had my bible open to Romans 1 and I was kinda zoning out, just staring at nothing. I'd read a little bit and zone off again. Read a little, zone a little. Then something in verses 18 & 19 caught my eye. Let's have a look.

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,
19 because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them.


The bold parts are what caught my eye. "The wrath of God is against all men who suppress the truth."....... My thoughts are that nonbelievers aren't able to suppress the truth because they don't know the truth, the truth being the Gospel. The only ones who can suppress the truth are the ones who know the Word of God. Christians.

Verse 19 shows that God has made known to them the knowledge of God. Nonbelievers don't possess this knowledge. I truly do not believe God would hold nonbelievers accountable for not sharing the Gospel. That's just me...it's a personal belief.

Now let's look at verse 20. I added verse 21 because it's a continuation of verse 20.


20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse,
21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened.


Notice that it says that "they knew God" and that they were supposed to glorify Him as God and were guilty of not doing that. Again, my personal belief is that God won't hold nonbelievers accountable for not glorifying Him.

This is what first caught my eye and changed my thinking regarding the common interpretation of these verses. Please understand that my intent is for you see these things on your own. I'm showing and explaining just as I saw it. You may see things different and that's ok. I'm just here to water the plants.

As I said, the rest of the chapter talks about God letting these backsliders go and His reasons for it. If you would like to discuss it, we can. Or you could give it a couple read overs and tell me what you think. Look for anything that might refer to someone as a christian.

I'm gonna run for now. This post is getting really long. I hate long posts......even mine.

Later...
i

 

[DPMartin]

so then Muslims are in, right, because they believe in Jesus too, but Dharmies...um, Hindus, they are out, like that, right?

nope, the devils declared Jesus is the Son of God in His Presence and they have no salvation. and if such as muslins Hindus and the like "believed" Jesus Christ the Word of God, then they would be Christians also, and they wouldn't be Muslims Hindus any more would they?

if they can believe what they believe now, then they can believe the true Living God through His Son the Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[101G]

nope, the devils declared Jesus is the Son of God in His Presence and they have no salvation. and if such as muslins Hindus and the like "believed" Jesus Christ the Word of God, then they would be Christians also, and they wouldn't be Muslims Hindus any more would they?

GINOLJC, not saying that you're right or wrong. but consider this, if one believes in the Lord Jesus do not God requires them to be holy. be ye holy for I AM Holy. to me, if I'm wrong, I thought Christianity is a life style, (following Christ) and not a religion.

 

[Helen]

Notice that it says that "they knew God" and that they were supposed to glorify Him as God and were guilty of not doing that. Again, my personal belief is that God won't hold nonbelievers accountable for not glorifying Him.

This is what first caught my eye and changed my thinking regarding the common interpretation of these verses. Please understand that my intent is for you see these things on your own. I'm showing and explaining just as I saw it. You may see things different and that's ok. I'm just here to water the plants.

Well well, you have got me! :)
All these years and I had not seen ( or had bypassed) that they "knew God"...so agree, that nullified my Roman 1.20..as the "jungle grunters" answer!! I know that often when we read the bible we often filter it through our own belief system. BUT, I know it will be hard to 'let that go'. LOL

The thing is, I may well be the odd man out here. Because I believe that what Jesus did on the cross for us, He did for all. That much, I am sure we will all agree upon. Then some ( most) Christians would say..."but, unless they say 'the sinners prayer', that doesn't save them."
My own persuasion is..that what Jesus did , Jesus did, and He was the Perfect Last Lamb. What Adam lost, Jesus took back..for ALL.
I do not believe that those who do not "say the sinners prayer" will go to "Hell"..............forever and forever ,.. as many teach.
"Our God is a refining Fire. "
At the every 'end of the end', I believe that- "every knee SHALL bow, and EVERY tongue WILL confess that Jesus Christ is Lord."
Anyway, that is what I personally believe. For many decades I didn't, I believed just what our old pastor taught us, I just accepted it as he was older, mature, and had led us to the Lord. ...then my eyes were opened to the Bigger Picture. But, ...that is just my belief, ..I hardly ever mention it, because it always becomes contentious, and then it end nasty.

......thanks.

 

[Helen]

GINOLJC, not saying that you're right or wrong. but consider this, if one believes in the Lord Jesus do not God requires them to be holy. be ye holy for I AM Holy. to me, if I'm wrong, I thought Christianity is a life style, (following Christ) and not a religion.

I know this response was not addressed to me...but I am just adding my two cents here. :)
I agree He does tell us to "be as He is"...and that is our goal in the Christian life, as Paul well shows in his writing...always 'pressing toward the mark'...yet how many of us have "Become Holy"....other than "in Christ, by faith?" It cannot be done..hence the cost of the cross!!
Agree, Christianity is our whole life....religion now has a nasty taste, connected with religious actions but denying the power thereof. Religion is a divider and so many atrocities have been done in the name of religion. Religious spirits run rampant in the world.
So yes, the requirement is to be like Father. With His very nature in our every cell, soul and spirit.
The rest, and how we all do, be we Christian, Hindu's , Muslims etc ....as I see it...is totally a heart thing...God's tape measure will always go straight for the heart. We know that the American Indians worshiped the Great White Spirit ( or they did in cowboy movies :) ) Does that mean that their hearts were black and destined to 'hell'? I think many have God heart within...and many that look very pious and religious ( that word again) will fall short and be very surprised on that Great Day of the Lord!!
I believe God is much bigger than words...I do not think every mans salvation is 'weighed' upon how well he said the sinners prayer and got that prayer right, as he said it line by line after a pastor. ( as I did )

.....Blessings....
...are you still glad that you talked me out of leaving this Site when such nasty attitudes and 'slashing' arguments were going on? :)

DPMartin...
....good choice of a Thread...very interesting to see where we each 'are'. Thank you.

 

[101G]

I know this response was not addressed to me...but I am just adding my two cents here. :)
I agree He does tell us to "be as He is"...and that is our goal in the Christian life, as Paul well shows in his writing...always 'pressing toward the mark'...yet how many of us have "Become Holy"....other than "in Christ, by faith?" It cannot be done..hence the cost of the cross!!
Agree, Christianity is our whole life....religion now has a nasty taste, connected with religious actions but denying the power thereof. Religion is a divider and so many atrocities have been done in the name of religion. Religious spirits run rampant in the world.
So yes, the requirement is to be like Father. With His very nature in our every cell, soul and spirit.
The rest, and how we all do, be we Christian, Hindu's , Muslims etc ....as I see it...is totally a heart thing...God's tape measure will always go straight for the heart. We know that the American Indians worshiped the Great White Spirit ( or they did in cowboy movies :) ) Does that mean that their hearts were black and destined to 'hell'? I think many have God heart within...and many that look very pious and religious ( that word again) will fall short and be very surprised on that Great Day of the Lord!!
I believe God is much bigger than words...I do not think every mans salvation is 'weighed' upon how well he said the sinners prayer and got that prayer right, as he said it line by line after a pastor. ( as I did )

.....Blessings....
...are you still glad that you talked me out of leaving this Site when such nasty attitudes and 'slashing' arguments were going on? :)

DPMartin...
....good choice of a Thread...very interesting to see where we each 'are'. Thank you.

GINOLJC, ByGrace, good response. this is what being Christ like is to be corrected when needed. the greater person accepts correction and rejoice in the Lord with the new revelation, which I commend you on. see Job, could have come back and say, "I told you so", no. it's not about right or wrong amoung brothers and sister but honor and respect. I have honor and respect for you in gaining knowledge, than rejecting it, (see Hos 4:6). as you said we all must appear before God, Jesus. but as for all who believe or not or what knowledge of God or not. Romans 2:10-16 "But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile 11 For there is no respect of persons with God. 12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law; 13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. 14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: 15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;) 16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel".

 

[bbyrd009]

nope, the devils declared Jesus is the Son of God in His Presence and they have no salvation. and if such as muslins Hindus and the like "believed" Jesus Christ the Word of God, then they would be Christians also, and they wouldn't be Muslims Hindus any more would they?

so iow it does not matter to you that Islam compels people to "follow Christ or be doomed," they are considered lost on some other basis. What basis?

And of course Dharmies, being considered "not monotheistic," would be disqualified--by you, at least--for different reasons. I am just trying to discern these reasons for both, understand.