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Make No Mistake! God Will Kill Some For Not Keeping His Dietary Laws! Part 2

Discussion in 'Christian Debate Forum' started by Eccl.12:13, Oct 3, 2010.

  1. Eccl.12:13

    Eccl.12:13 New Member

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    So tell me....can you explain why it is the Lord is going to consume those that eat the mouse, swine and the abomination upon His return?

    Or do you also believe Isa.66 has already happened?



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  2. Rach1370

    Rach1370 New Member

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    Hey...yeah, I'm back :) It seems that try as I might not to get drawn into debates like this, it's just like an invisible itch when I see people making mistakes like this!!

    So....it seems that Isaiah 66 is a big stumbling block here...let me address it:
    It has not happened yet...it speaks of the end of the age, when Jesus will come back and judge the unbelievers.

    However, I think that the key word here is unbelievers. If Isa 66 speaks of Jesus second coming, then we need to read elsewhere what that entails. The New Testament if full of references to that glorious day. Since we have been accused of not showing any verses that back our arguments, lets look at a couple:


    *Heb 9:28 - so Christ, having been offered once to bear the signs of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him.

    *John 6:39-40 - And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day. For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.

    *1 Thess 5:9-10 - For God has not destined us for wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, who died for us so that whether we are awake of asleep we might live with him.


    There are so many more, but as we can see from these examples, no where does the New Testament equate salvation on the Day of the Lord with what we eat.

    Now, you may say, as xander does:
    "The Lord is the one who sanctifies people, and He does it with His word. He sets people apart from the world with the Laws and commandments."

    Yes, God sanctifies through his word, and his word is Jesus. (John1 - In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God...And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth)

    So if we are to trust in Jesus completely for our salvation, what of the Laws of the Old Testament? Hebrews 7 addresses this:

    11.Now if perfection had been attainable through the Levitical priesthood (for under it the people received the law), what further need would there have been for another priest to arise after the order of Melchizedek, rather than one named after the order of Aaron? 12.For when there is a change in the priesthood, there is necessarily a change in the law as well. ...18. For on the one hand, a former commandment is set aside because of its weakness and uselessness 19. (for the law made nothing perfect); but on the other hand, a better hope is introduced, through which we draw near to God. ...22. This makes Jesus the guarantor of a better covenant.

    The whole book of Hebrews is excellent, but too long to post here. But the verses above are sufficient explanation....a new covenant was brought in under Jesus, doing away with the old laws. The old laws help bring wisdom and understanding, but they are not necessary for salvation.

    I know many mistaken people disagree with this, but you are falling into error. To insist that the keeping of one law (that of what we eat) MUST be keep for salvation, you must then assume that ALL the old laws must be kept. As all the bible shows us, the keeping of the laws is impossible for sinful man...only Jesus was able to be sin free. So I must ask, what of the other old Testament requirements? Do you make sacrifices (something that would need the temple), hold to circumcision (something fully discussed and deemed unnecessary in the NT), or all the some 600 laws?
    Demanding strict adherence to one law only is fallacy. In truth there is only one....Jesus, and as I said before, claiming that his blood did not cover all our sins, is diminishing his sacrifice.

    It is sad to see people who pick up Gods word, read it, but miss the truly awesome nature of what Jesus has done for us. Our Lord died for us, so that we wouldn't be bound to laws we couldn't keep...he has saved us from ourselves! That is to be rejoiced in, not nitpicked over!
    Rach
     
  3. Eccl.12:13

    Eccl.12:13 New Member

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    OK.......let's go with 'unbelievers'. Why is God going to consume 'unbelievers' that eat swine, the mouse and the abomination? If they are 'unbelievers' why is God holding them accountable for what they eat?


    And to address Heb.7...can you tell me just which law was changed?

    Heb.7
    [12] For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.

    So just which of the over 600 laws was there a NEED to change?

    Thou shall not kill?
    Thou shall not commit adultry?
    Thou shall not covet?
    Thou shall not steel?

    Or how about this one that is NOT part of the (10) and yet we are STILL to keep it......

    Thou shall not have respect of persons?

    Again I ask....just which law HAD to be changed?

    And by the way, just because we cannot keep God's laws perfectly, NOWHERE will you find EVER find in God's word where we are told we should not try to keep them.

    When Paul read the law and found it was wrong to covet do you not think he told others that it was wrong and told them NO to covet also?

    Rom.7
    [7] What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

    Now do you think Paul only read the ONE law out of the books of Moses?

    Do you think when he read, 'Do not steal.', he stopped!
    Do you think when he read, 'Do not lie., he stopped!
    Do you think when he read ALL of the other laws, did he not comply?

    Was it any of these laws that needed to be changed?


    Just which law was it that was changed?






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  4. Mercy777

    Mercy777 New Member

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    Matthew 15:10Jesus called the crowd to him and said, "Listen and understand. 11What goes into a man's mouth does not make him 'unclean,' but what comes out of his mouth, that is what makes him 'unclean.' "

    Luke 10: 1After this the Lord appointed seventy-two others and sent them two by two ahead of him to every town and place where he was about to go. 2He told them, "The harvest is plentiful, but the workers are few. Ask the Lord of the harvest, therefore, to send out workers into his harvest field. 3Go! I am sending you out like lambs among wolves. 4Do not take a purse or bag or sandals; and do not greet anyone on the road.

    5"When you enter a house, first say, 'Peace to this house.' 6If a man of peace is there, your peace will rest on him; if not, it will return to you. 7Stay in that house, eating and drinking whatever they give you, for the worker deserves his wages. Do not move around from house to house.


    Romans 14:17
    For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit,
    19Let us therefore make every effort to do what leads to peace and to mutual edification. 20Do not destroy the work of God for the sake of food. All food is clean, but it is wrong for a man to eat anything that causes someone else to stumble. 21It is better not to eat meat or drink wine or to do anything else that will cause your brother to fall.

    God Bless,
    Mercy
     
  5. Foreigner

    Foreigner New Member

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    Excellent post, Mercy.

    When it comes to matters of our relationship with God, it is more important to get to the truth that to win the argument.

    Eccl, You are fond of making demands of others here -- Please provide evidence that the scriptures Mercy provided do not negate your point.

    Because, to be candid with you it is kind of hard to argue with, "Jesus called the crowd to him and said..."
     
  6. Eccl.12:13

    Eccl.12:13 New Member

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    Now let's read ALL of what happened and see if at ANYTIME the topic of conversation was about food;


    Matt.15
    [1] Then came to Jesus scribes and Pharisees, which were of Jerusalem, saying,
    [2] Why do thy disciples transgress the tradition of the elders? for they wash not their hands when they eat bread.

    Clearly the topic being discussed here is NOT about food. The problem the Pharisees have with Jesus disciples is the fact that they are eating bread without washing their hands. Let’s confirm this;

    Mark 7
    [1] Then came together unto him the Pharisees, and certain of the scribes, which came from Jerusalem.
    [2] And when they saw some of his disciples eat bread with defiled, that is to say, with unwashen, hands, they found fault.

    Again we see the problem is not with WHAT they are eating, but with the fact that the disciples are not washing their hands.

    [3] For the Pharisees, and all the Jews, except they wash their hands oft, eat not, holding the tradition of the elders.

    So ALL of the Jews held the practice of washing their hands “oft”, or often, or they did not eat their food.

    [4] And when they come from the market, except they wash, they eat not. And many other things there be, which they have received to hold, as the washing of cups, and pots, brasen vessels, and of tables.

    So it wasn’t just hand washing they were consumed with. The Jews of the day had made a big deal about washing EVERYTHING!

    But at what point is FOOD ever mentioned?

    Can the scriptures be any more clear on the topic of conversation of the Pharisees and the problem they had with Jesus disciples?

    “Why do thy disciples transgress the tradition of the elders? for they wash not their hands when they eat bread.”

    let’s now read Jesus reply;

    Matt.15
    [11] Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man; but that which cometh out of the mouth, this defileth a man.

    We know the subject here is about, “unwashed hands”. So is Jesus speaking about the type of food being consumed, or the fact that a man eating with unwashed hands does not harm him? The answer is obvious. Jesus is speaking about the very thing the Jews of the day had made a big deal about, the washing of hands. But let’s confirm this. Let’s see if Jesus told His disciples something different when they came to Him in private about the same matter;

    [12] Then came his disciples, and said unto him, Knowest thou that the Pharisees were offended, after they heard this saying?

    It seem the Pharisees got a little upset when Jesus put them in their place and said all of their tradition of washing everything meant nothing. Let’s continue;

    [15] Then answered Peter and said unto him, Declare unto us this parable.
    [16] And Jesus said, Are ye also yet without understanding?

    Understand that Peter and the rest of the disciples had been doing all of these “washing” traditions also, so they wanted to know just what did Jesus mean when he said what He said. Let’s read;

    [17] Do not ye yet understand, that whatsoever entereth in at the mouth goeth into the belly, and is cast out into the draught?

    So the things that go into a man’s mouth are expelled.

    [18] But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man.
    [19] For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:

    But it’s what comes out of the mind that defiles man; evil thoughts, murders, adulteries etc. Now let’s read Jesus answer concerning the subject of unwashed hands;

    [20] These are the things which defile a man: but to eat with unwashen hands defileth not a man.

    Let's read it once more.....

    "...but to eat with unwashen hands defileth not a man."


    Now at what point did Jesus say ANYTHING about His dietary laws being done away with? At what point did Jesus say anything about ANY food?

    The subject matter from the very start was about unwashed hands, and the fact that the Jews of the day were obsessed with washing things, and that is how Jesus ended and answered the question.

    "...but to eat with unwashen hands defileth not a man."




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  7. Xanderoc

    Xanderoc New Member

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    First Rach, I would like to point out this scripture you mentioned. *Heb 9:28 - so Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him.
    The first time Jesus came was to deal with sin. Why? Because the wages of sin is death. Something had to die for sin. The Old Covenant was the sacrificing of animals for sin, but the New Covenant is when Christ came He became the final sacrifice for sin. But we must ask what is sin? 1 John 3:4 say's sin is breaking God's law. So when Jesus returns the second time He will deal with the sinner. New Testament verse, for those who don't consider the Old Testament prophets writings.
    2 Thess: 1:[sup]7[/sup]And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, [sup]8[/sup]In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

    "Taking vengeance" seem to me, Jesus will be dealing with sinner.







     
  8. Mercy777

    Mercy777 New Member

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    Let us Praise God for Christ working in us to know His bountiful grace.
    I thank you Foreigner, Glory to God in the Highest for His Word is in you and that is the power of Christ.

    Colossians 2: 9For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form, 10and you have been given fullness in Christ, who is the head over every power and authority. 11In him you were also circumcised, in the putting off of the sinful nature,[a] not with a circumcision done by the hands of men but with the circumcision done by Christ, 12having been buried with him in baptism and raised with him through your faith in the power of God, who raised him from the dead.

    I want all those who believe in Christ to know what has already been given to them.
    God Bless,
    Mercy
     
  9. Xanderoc

    Xanderoc New Member

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    Now since we are reading the writings of Hebrews, lets read
    Hebrew 8:[sup]7[/sup]For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second. [sup]8[/sup]For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:

    [sup]9[/sup]Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.

    [sup]10[/sup]For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

    You see God found fault with the people, the first covenant was written on stone the ten commandment, Duet. 4:[sup]13[/sup]And he declared unto you his covenant, which he commanded you to perform, even ten commandments; and he wrote them upon two tables of stone. But the New Covenant which Jesus confirmed with His sacrifice had the same Laws as the Old Covenant. Now we will read a little more Hebrews.
    Hebrews 10:[sup]28[/sup]He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: [sup]29[/sup]Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

    "The blood of the covenant", what covenant? The New Covenant!! Based on the same Laws and Commandments.
     
  10. Foreigner

    Foreigner New Member

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    Eccl, I read your response to my post.

    You do realize that you just put forth that what the Pharisees believed - through the law - is not correct....don't you?
     
  11. Mercy777

    Mercy777 New Member

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  12. Xanderoc

    Xanderoc New Member

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    Matthew 15:10Jesus called the crowd to him and said, "Listen and understand. 11What goes into a man's mouth does not make him 'unclean,' but what comes out of his mouth, that is what makes him 'unclean.'

    This verse here is being misrepresented. This chapter has nothing to do with food. It was talking about the tradition of washing hands. READ THE WHOLE CHAPTER.

    Luke 10: 1After this the Lord appointed seventy-two others and sent them two by two ahead of him to every town and place where he was about to go. 2He told them, "The harvest is plentiful, but the workers are few. Ask the Lord of the harvest, therefore, to send out workers into his harvest field. 3Go! I am sending you out like lambs among wolves. 4Do not take a purse or bag or sandals; and do not greet anyone on the road.

    5"When you enter a house, first say, 'Peace to this house.' 6If a man of peace is there, your peace will rest on him; if not, it will return to you. 7Stay in that house, eating and drinking whatever they give you, for the worker deserves his wages. Do not move around from house to house.



    Again we have a misrepresentation of the word. If you read what Jesus told his disciples in Matthew
    Matthew 10 [sup]5[/sup]These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:

    [sup]6[/sup]But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

    Do you think Jesus would send the seventy- two to the Gentiles or stranger for that matter after He told His disciples not go? Of course not!! Cornelius the Centurion was the first Gentile the disciples dealt with. Why do you think God gave Peter the vision about calling any man common or unclean.


    Romans 14:17
    For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit,
    19Let us therefore make every effort to do what leads to peace and to mutual edification. 20Do not destroy the work of God for the sake of food. All food is clean, but it is wrong for a man to eat anything that causes someone else to stumble. 21It is better not to eat meat or drink wine or to do anything else that will cause your brother to fall.



    All foods are not clean according to God's dietary law. Leveticus 11 will tell you that. Peter said there is a more surer word of prophecy. Meaning the Old testament.

    2 Peter 1:[sup]19[/sup]And[sup](A)[/sup] we have something more sure, the prophetic word, to which you will do well to pay attention[sup](B)[/sup] as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until[sup](C)[/sup] the day[sup](D)[/sup] dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts, Where is the prophetic word found? The Old testament.

    Peter warned people about Paul's writings. 2 Peter 3:[sup]15[/sup]And count[sup](A)[/sup] the patience of our Lord as salvation, just as[sup](B)[/sup] our beloved brother Paul also wrote to you[sup](C)[/sup] according to the wisdom given him, [sup]16[/sup]as he does in all his letters when he speaks in them of these matters.[sup](D)[/sup] There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction,[sup](E)[/sup] as they do the other Scriptures. [sup]17[/sup]You therefore, beloved,[sup](F)[/sup] knowing this beforehand,[sup](G)[/sup] take care that you are not carried away with the error of lawless people and lose your own stability. [sup]18[/sup]But[sup](H)[/sup] grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.[sup](I)[/sup] To him be the glory both now and to the day of[sup](J)[/sup] eternity. Amen.


    People reading this thread take heed to this warning from our brother Peter.
     
  13. Mercy777

    Mercy777 New Member

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    Clean and Unclean food was given by Moses as the washing of hands and animals, after childbirth, infectious diseases. All in Leviticus. And if the washing of hands was important to Jesus, why was his disciples not doing it? Does it say Jesus washed his hands? Did Mary do the purification after childbirth? Did Jesus touch the leper?
    So if one has a skin infection, he better stay isolated for seven days until a priest declares him clean?
    No, Jesus was concerned about the internal holiness. Clean the inside of the cup and the outside of the cup will be clean as well.
    If I break the dietary law, I have also broken the cleanlines law. So what shall I do? Take a ram or goat for sacrifice to atone for by sin? Because this is what the law of Moses asks for. Cannot obey one without the other.
    No, Jesus came to fulfill the Law of Moses and the Law of the Prophets and be the atoning sacrifice for all sin. Jesus cleaned the outside, healed the sick, the poor, the blind, the dead to life as even today. So we could have something greater inside, Him. To not be concerned with what is on the outside, or what my brother eats or drinks, washing his hands. To care about my brothers heart in Christ, so he also may believe in Christ and recieve the gift of Eternal Life.

    Take heed to all Pharisees who do not proclaim Christ Crucified and raised from the dead for our sakes while we were sinners.
    Galatians 3:24
    So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith.
    Galatians 3:29
    If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
    Only Christ has all power and authority in heaven, on earth and under earth.
    Love the Lord they God with all thy heart, mind, and strength. Love one another as I have loved you.
    Matthew 22:40
    All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."
    We can assume who was standing all around this event, but we really do not know who or how many were listening. The crowd does not specify only Jews.

    And Jesus explains further to the disciples,
    Matt. 15: 16"Are you still so dull?" Jesus asked them. 17"Don't you see that whatever enters the mouth goes into the stomach and then out of the body? 18But the things that come out of the mouth come from the heart, and these make a man 'unclean.' 19For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false testimony, slander.(ten commandments) 20These are what make a man 'unclean'; but eating with unwashed hands does not make him 'unclean.' "

    Jesus mentions both what goes into the mouth and unwashed hands.

    God Bless,
    Mercy
     
  14. Xanderoc

    Xanderoc New Member

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    First if you read Levetivcus 11
    [sup]1[/sup]And the LORD spake unto Moses and to Aaron, saying unto them, [sup]2[/sup]Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, These are the beasts which ye shall eat among all the beasts that are on the earth.
    Moses got these from the Lord. They were not his laws. Second explain to me why God told Noah what was clean and unclean.
    Gen. 7:[sup]1[/sup]And the LORD said unto Noah, Come thou and all thy house into the ark; for thee have I seen righteous before me in this generation.
    [sup]2[/sup]Of every clean beast thou shalt take to thee by sevens, the male and his female: and of beasts that are not clean by two, the male and his female. [sup]3[/sup]Of fowls also of the air by sevens, the male and the female; to keep seed alive upon the face of all the earth.

    From the beginning God seperated clean and unclean animals.
    Now, explain to the readers Isaiah 66: [sup]15[/sup]For, behold, the LORD will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire.

    [sup]16[/sup]For by fire and by his sword will the LORD plead with all flesh: and the slain of the LORD shall be many. [sup]17[/sup]They that sanctify themselves, and purify themselves in the gardens behind one tree in the midst, eating swine's flesh, and the abomination, and the mouse, shall be consumed together, saith the LORD.

    This is a future event taking place in the vision. So again Mercy take heed to Peter's warning about Paul's writing. Explain why the Lord is killing people for it. And don't give the exuce that it is the Old testament. The Lord said He would do nothing but give His secrets to His prophets.
    Amos 3:[sup]7[/sup]Surely the Lord GOD will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets.
    He said the Lord will do nothing, but reveal His secrets. Don't you think if God were to Change the Law about eating clean and unclean animals He would have had the prophets write about them. Well He did. Read Isaiah 66: 15-17
    It is a huge secret about God killing people for eating what He determined unclean foods.
     
  15. Eccl.12:13

    Eccl.12:13 New Member

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    ?
     
  16. bud02

    bud02 New Member

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    Apparently God is in on this conspiracy by telling "temping" Peter to eat the unclean. Is God now a tempter of men?

    Or it's such a huge secret that God has not gotten the memo.

    Or you just don't understand salvation, or the Spirit.

    Galatians 3
    "Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit, are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort?"


    "All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written: `Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law' "

    "No one is justified before God by the law, because, `The righteous will live by faith.' The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, `The man who does these things will live by them' "

    "For if the inheritance depends on the law, then it no longer depends on a promise; but God in his grace gave it to Abraham through a promise"
     
  17. Mercy777

    Mercy777 New Member

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    Amen, Lord Jesus.
    I can't buy Salvation or work for it. Even my faith is from the One and Only who is the Author and Perfector. Jesus.

    John 3:
    16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son. 19This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. 20Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. 21But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God."

    Not personal towards anyone....
    This dietary law, were we saved before we had knowlege of it or after. I myself was saved by Christ before I had knowledge. Since Christ washed away all my sins before I knew of this dietary law. Will Christ kill me? For me NO! He washed away all my sins, yesterday, today and tomorrow. He remembers them no more. God looks at me through the blood of Jesus. What good I do in this body is done by Jesus in me. His Spirit leading my way and watching my back. I am not my own and have been bought at a price for God. I have been bought with the precious blood of Jesus.
    2 Corinthians 3:3
    You show that you are a letter from Christ, the result of our ministry, written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of human hearts.

    2 Corinthians 3:6
    He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant—not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.


    God Bless bud02,
    Mercy
     
  18. Xanderoc

    Xanderoc New Member

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    Bud how many times does a person have to prove to you that Paul was speaking to the Galations about the sacrificial law. Not the moral and royal law?
     
  19. bud02

    bud02 New Member

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    Did you miss this part? Book of the Law

    "All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written: `Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law' "

    Now that would be the book that Moses told the Levis to place beside the ark. So that it would be a witness against them.
    Paul makes it pretty clear if you are looking to keep a law you had beeter keep them all. Whether it be sacrificial or eating and touching the unclean. Everything in the BOOK OF THE LAW>

    So now we can see that those observing the law are under a curse. The law is defined in the next sentence BOOK meaning the book of the law of Moses.

    And what part of the continued verse do you not understand or wish to imply is speaking of sacrifices.

    [sup]21[/sup] Is the law then against the promises of God? Certainly not! For if there had been a law given which could have given life, truly righteousness would have been by the law. [sup]22[/sup] But the Scripture has confined all under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe. [sup]23[/sup] But before faith came, we were kept under guard by the law, kept for the faith which would afterward be revealed. [sup]24[/sup] Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. [sup]25[/sup] But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.

    It is apparent that you disqualify yourself from the underlined. that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe. Was the promise given with conditions to Abraham? The answer is no so now why do you try to add conditions to Gods unconditional promise? You in doing so lock yourself out of the promise, thinking you can obtain it by observing the law. The book that Moses said would be a witness against Israel has testified against you as well.
     
  20. Rach1370

    Rach1370 New Member

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    Ecc.12:13....you seem a bit angry. I am sorry for this, but in truth I know 2 things:
    1. soft words are never heard by stubborn people, and
    2. Religious people do not bring up such topics to discuss and learn - only to point out others perceived sins and their own righteousness.

    This leaves me, indeed all of us trying to correct you no where to go, we can argue for what is plainly written in scripture again and again, but unless the Holy Spirit steps in, you will not hear it. You must understand, I honestly do not sit here posting with snide glee trying to one up you. I really care that you are missing the most beautiful part of the Gospel. The "Good News"...Jesus has freed us from everything that came before! It's wonderful....people could not uphold the law, so our God saved us from it!! Does that mean we have license to sin? Of course not! Indeed you are right in that Christians should not lie, cheat, steal, murder etc. But the freedom in Christ comes from the fact that should we slip and sin (which we will...fallen humans and all!), we will not suffer the wrath and condemnation of God!
    And this is the point, is it not?? You state that people who break the dietary law will be killed...this is WRONG, we are forgiven in Christ! Do you doubt the strength of Jesus' sacrifice?
    You state above: "And by the way, just because we cannot keep God's laws perfectly, NOWHERE will you find EVER find in God's word where we are told we should not try to keep them." I don't think anyone here is arguing that we are to sin indiscriminately, and the ten commandments show us what sin is, and a lot of the other things you talk about (not having respect for people) is covered under Jesus command to love others, do unto others etc. But above you admit we cannot follow the laws perfectly and yet you still try and claim that God will burn those who fail to follow them! Sorry, that doesn't make sense!
    And I must restate....why on earth are you so concerned with only 1 law???? If you truly believe that the keeping of the old laws are necessary for salvation, then you must keep all of them...perfectly. It matters not if you don't eat pork, at some time in your life you will covet, fall into some form of idolatry (for eg. do you enjoy sports just a bit much??) or maybe just forget to tithe one sunday....whoops, in the OT its Saturday, isn't it.
    My point is, we MUST rely on Jesus, he is the only perfect one and is the ONLY way to God the Father.
    Another point I must make is this....all these laws were for the Jewish nation. Are you a Jew? I'm not. Jesus died to save everyone who loves him and to free the Jews from laws impossible to follow, but those laws never did apply to the Gentiles. When the Gospel broke down the separation between Israel and the Gentiles, all foods were declared clean. As others have already shown, these verses support that. Mark 7:14-22, Acts 9-16(verse 15 is the key here "And the voice came to him again a second time, "What God has made clean, do not call common"), and this one, which you NEED to hear...hear with your heart:
    1 Timothy 4:1-5 - Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by devoting themselves to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons, through the insincerity of liars whose consciences are seared, who forbid marriage and require abstinence from foods that God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth. For everything created by God is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with thanksgiving, for it is made holy by the word of God and prayer.


    Gal 3:10-14 "For you who rely on works of the law are under a curse; for it is written, 'Cursed be everyone who does not abide by all things written in the Book of the Law, and do them.' Now it is evident that no one is justified before God by the law, for 'The righteous shall live by faith.' But the law is not of faith, rather 'The one who does them shall live by them.' Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us - for it is written, 'Cursed is everyone who is hanged on a tree' - so that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we might receive the promised Spirit through faith."
    Gal 3:23-26 "Now before faith came, we were held captive under the law, imprisoned until the coming faith would be revealed. So then, the law was our guardian until Christ came, in order that we might be justified by faith. But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian, for in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith."

    All these passages are clear...more than clear. You need to choose, the law or Jesus? You cannot have both, only one will give salvation and forgiveness.
    I know this post will probably anger you, you will probably try and tear it and me down, but I remain safe in Jesus. I pray you will hear the Holy Spirit speaking to you through His word.

    Rach
     
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