Make No Mistake! God Will Kill Some For Not Keeping His Dietary Laws! Part 2

[Selene]

Selene, these scripture do not contradict the dietary law. If you read Leviticus 11, you will see nothing is unclean of itself. It is unclean because Jesus the law giver said they were unclean. He told Noah what animal was unclean ... Read Gen 7:2, He told Moses to write specifically what animal (food) was unclean. Now you expect the reader to believe God changed His mind through Paul's letters. Peter warned about Paul's writing. 1 Peter 3[sup]15[/sup]And count[sup](A)[/sup] the patience of our Lord as salvation, just as[sup](B)[/sup] our beloved brother Paul also wrote to you[sup](C)[/sup] according to the wisdom given him, [sup]16[/sup]as he does in all his letters when he speaks in them of these matters.[sup](D)[/sup] There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction,[sup](E)[/sup] as they do the other Scriptures. Don't twist Paul's letters to your own destruction.



No his word is not incorrect, It is the understanding of his word that's incorrect. Peter's warning for Paul's writing. [sup]15[/sup]And count[sup](A)[/sup] the patience of our Lord as salvation, just as[sup](B)[/sup] our beloved brother Paul also wrote to you[sup](C)[/sup] according to the wisdom given him, [sup]16[/sup]as he does in all his letters when he speaks in them of these matters.[sup](D)[/sup] There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction,[sup](E)[/sup] as they do the other Scriptures. Like I told Selene, don't let your understanding of Paul's writing cause you to fall into destruction.

Hello Foreigner,

St. Peter is not saying that St. Paul is wrong. St. Paul was an Apostle led by the same Holy Spirit as St. Peter. In his letter to the Romans, St. Paul is saying that we can eat anything we want, and that we are not to judge a person by what they eat. That is not a distortion of Scripture.

There are many laws in the Old Testament, and some of the laws no longer applies since Christ died on the cross. The law of animal sacrifice was commanded by God. So, why don't we sacrifice animals today? The law says that those who commit adultery are to be stoned to death. So, why are we not stoning adulters to death? Circumcision of the flesh was also commanded by God, but in the New Testament, we find that circumcision of the flesh is not nescessary. As you can see, God changed His mind about circumcision of the flesh. The dietary laws also don't apply according to St. Paul to the Romans.

Romans 14:2-6, 14-15 One person believes that one may eat anything, while the weak person eats only vegetables. The one who eats must not despise the one who abstains, and the one who abstains must not pass judgement on the one who eats; for God has welcomed him. Who are you to pass judgement on someone else's servant? For one person considers one day more important than another, while another person considers all days alike. Let everyone be fully persuaded in his own mind. Whoever observes the day, observes it for the Lord. Also whoever eats, eats for the Lord, since he gives thanks to God; while whoever abstains, abstains for the Lord and gives thanks to God............I know and am convinced in the Lord Jesus that nothing is unclean in itself; still it is unclean for someone who thinks it unclean. If your brother is being hurt by what you eat, your conduct is no longer in accord with love. Do not because of your food destroy him for whom Christ died.

The Scripture is clear and I am not distorting it at all. I am reading it as it says. In the New Testament, the Holy Spirit said through St. Paul that one person may eat anything and we are not to pass judgement on that person. That person who eats anything eats for the Lord and gives thanks to God. Yes, it is true that God told Noah what animal he can eat. It is also true that Moses through the inspiration of the Holy Spirit wrote what animals are clean and unclean. It is also through the same Holy Spirit that St. Paul is now declaring that a person can eat anything.

Yes, God can change His mind about certain things and He is not breaking any moral law in doing it. He got rid of animal sacrifice because it is no longer needed. He also replaced the law of stoning and putting people to death for adultery and other offenses. He replaced it with mercy. This is why we are against the death penalty or capital punishment. He also got rid of the dietary laws because as St. Paul says, "If your brother is being hurt by what you eat, your conduct is no longer in accord with love. Do not because of your food destroy him for whom Christ died."

In Christ,
Selene

 

[Rach1370]

Oh, and Xander, my understanding is just fine, thanks.


so·journ
  /n. ˈsoʊ

dʒɜrn; v. ˈsoʊ

dʒɜrn, soʊˈdʒɜrn/ Show Spelled[n. soh-jurn; v. soh-jurn, soh-jurn] Show IPA –noun 1. a temporary stay: during his sojourn in Paris. –verb (used without object) 2. to stay for a time in a place; live temporarily: to sojourn on the Riviera for two months.

You can swap between translations as you please to try and make a text mean what you want it to....still doesn't mean your right.
I love how you and ECC will completely ignore verses and proofs from the New Testament people give, and just jump right over the OT text, claiming we're wrong and you're right. Again its just a matter of he said, she said. And me, I'll trust Jesus' word over yours, thankyou.
Perhpas if you try reading again, but the whole passage this time, in context with what God is actually telling you??
Seriously, I cannot quite believe you are pinning your salvation on pig!
Am praying you will realise just how delicious it is!!!

 

[aspen]

Xander. "The Trinity is a pagan belief".

ARE YOU KIDDING! :blink:

Sorry Rach. Sadly, Adventists never kid about rejecting the doctrine of the Trinity. Unfortunately, once again, along with dietary restrictions and weird health requirements, it brings Adventism more in line with all the other 19th century religious movements then with the Early Church or any other expression of Christianity before 1800 AD.

Peace

 

[Xanderoc]

Hello Foreigner,

St. Peter is not saying that St. Paul is wrong. St. Paul was an Apostle led by the same Holy Spirit as St. Peter. In his letter to the Romans, St. Paul is saying that we can eat anything we want, and that we are not to judge a person by what they eat. That is not a distortion of Scripture.

There are many laws in the Old Testament, and some of the laws no longer applies since Christ died on the cross. The law of animal sacrifice was commanded by God. So, why don't we sacrifice animals today? The law says that those who commit adultery are to be stoned to death. So, why are we not stoning adulters to death? Circumcision of the flesh was also commanded by God, but in the New Testament, we find that circumcision of the flesh is not nescessary. As you can see, God changed His mind about circumcision of the flesh. The dietary laws also don't apply according to St. Paul to the Romans.

Romans 14:2-6, 14-15 One person believes that one may eat anything, while the weak person eats only vegetables. The one who eats must not despise the one who abstains, and the one who abstains must not pass judgement on the one who eats; for God has welcomed him. Who are you to pass judgement on someone else's servant? For one person considers one day more important than another, while another person considers all days alike. Let everyone be fully persuaded in his own mind. Whoever observes the day, observes it for the Lord. Also whoever eats, eats for the Lord, since he gives thanks to God; while whoever abstains, abstains for the Lord and gives thanks to God............I know and am convinced in the Lord Jesus that nothing is unclean in itself; still it is unclean for someone who thinks it unclean. If your brother is being hurt by what you eat, your conduct is no longer in accord with love. Do not because of your food destroy him for whom Christ died.

The Scripture is clear and I am not distorting it at all. I am reading it as it says. In the New Testament, the Holy Spirit said through St. Paul that one person may eat anything and we are not to pass judgement on that person. That person who eats anything eats for the Lord and gives thanks to God. Yes, it is true that God told Noah what animal he can eat. It is also true that Moses through the inspiration of the Holy Spirit wrote what animals are clean and unclean. It is also through the same Holy Spirit that St. Paul is now declaring that a person can eat anything.

Yes, God can change His mind about certain things and He is not breaking any moral law in doing it. He got rid of animal sacrifice because it is no longer needed. He also replaced the law of stoning and putting people to death for adultery and other offenses. He replaced it with mercy. This is why we are against the death penalty or capital punishment. He also got rid of the dietary laws because as St. Paul says, "If your brother is being hurt by what you eat, your conduct is no longer in accord with love. Do not because of your food destroy him for whom Christ died."

In Christ,
Selene

Fine, I am not here to convince anyone. You do what you want.

Xander. "The Trinity is a pagan belief".

ARE YOU KIDDING! :blink:

Sorry Rach. Sadly, Adventists never kid about rejecting the doctrine of the Trinity. Unfortunately, once again, along with dietary restrictions and weird health requirements, it brings Adventism more in line with all the other 19th century religious movements then with the Early Church or any other expression of Christianity before 1800 AD.

Peace

No I wasn't kidding when I said the trinity is a pagan belief system. There are plenty historical evidence that proof many religions had some sort of trinity associated with their God. This belief system isn't new. And by the way I'm No ADVENTIST. I don't believe in the writing of Ellen G white. I just follw what the Bible says from Genesis to Revelations.

Oh, and Xander, my understanding is just fine, thanks.


so·journ
  /n. ˈsoʊ

dʒɜrn; v. ˈsoʊ

dʒɜrn, soʊˈdʒɜrn/ Show Spelled[n. soh-jurn; v. soh-jurn, soh-jurn] Show IPA –noun 1. a temporary stay: during his sojourn in Paris. –verb (used without object) 2. to stay for a time in a place; live temporarily: to sojourn on the Riviera for two months.

You can swap between translations as you please to try and make a text mean what you want it to....still doesn't mean your right.
I love how you and ECC will completely ignore verses and proofs from the New Testament people give, and just jump right over the OT text, claiming we're wrong and you're right. Again its just a matter of he said, she said. And me, I'll trust Jesus' word over yours, thankyou.
Perhpas if you try reading again, but the whole passage this time, in context with what God is actually telling you??
Seriously, I cannot quite believe you are pinning your salvation on pig!
Am praying you will realise just how delicious it is!!!

I haven't look over any scripture given here given to contradict God's law or commandments. I've been given nothing but opinions and personal interpretation of what people believe is right. I will not try to convince anyone. Believe what you want.

 

[aspen]

Well Xander,

I apologize for jumping to conclusions about you being an Adventist.

Also, I hope you are not dismissing the Christian understanding of the doctrine of the Trinity based on the ideas of other religions. You are right, there are other examples of 3 gods sharing power or the 3 aspects of maiden, mother, crone; but all the examples are mere shadows of the doctrine of the Christian Trinity, further developed and defended against heretics by Athanasius in the 4th century.

Dismissing foundational doctrine because it can be found in other ancient religions is dangerous because if scholars used this method as a standard, Christians would have to throw out the Creation story, the Flood, the Virgin Birth, and the Resurrection of Jesus, just to name a few.

Peace

 

[Rach1370]

I believe you'll find that the idea of the Trinity was indeed poached from Christianity by those other pagan religions. We see the Trinity in Genesis, in the Creation; so in fact if you believe the bible, and that indeed was the beginning of all things, then God the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit were there far before anything else.
Genesis 1:1 In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth. The earth was without form and void, and darkness was over the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters.
And in verse 26 it says: Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness."
Some will say ' this is God speaking to his angels', but angels are not made in Gods likeness, they are spiritual beings, and while they can take on human form (as they often do when communicating Gods message to humans in the bible), we see in Revelations that they are vastly different beings then we are.
And of course John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life, and the life was the light of men. ...And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth.

This tells us that all members of the Trinity were present at creation....hard for other religions to have this idea before that.

As to the claim that the Trinity is a 'pagan' and therefore erroneous belief, that is just wrong. We see this so often in scripture; mostly in the New T, but also in the Old. That our one God exists in three persons, and we see this by how the different members of the Trinity function in human history. They relate to one another and play different roles. Some examples are:
At Jesus' baptism by John, where the Son is anointed for his public ministry by the Spirit, descending as a dove, with the Father declaring from heaven, "This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased" (Matt 3:13-17). All three persons of the Trinity are present, and each one is doing something different.
The bible goes on and on in reference to the plurality of God, speaking of God the Father, the Son and Holy Spirit. Prayers and songs are given to all three...it is clear that Jesus' disciples and apostles regard it this way. The worshiped Jesus as God, they recognized that he was sent by the Father, and they knew they had the empowering Spirit within them, helping their ministry.

As far as you not being an Adventist, I am interested in what you do call yourself. There are an interesting number of would be "christian" faiths, but they differ so significantly with major Christian doctrines and historic orthodoxy (by this I mean the doctrine set in apostolic times, and also the leading church fathers). They are also incompatible with trusting in the Jesus Christ of the Bible for the salvation that comes by God's grace alone.
Some cults that do not believe in the Trinity are: Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, Christian Science.
These are religions that claim to be christian, but if we want to consider other religions that deny the Trinity we could even go to Islam, Judaism etc.
So out of interest, what do you call yourself? Because based on Christian doctrine, the Trinity is very real and quite frankly, one of the necessary claims of Christianity. Every Protestant or Catholic church will agree on this....not on a lot of things! But the Trinity? There is no doubt! So if you don't, what do you call yourself??

 

[Xanderoc]

I believe you'll find that the idea of the Trinity was indeed poached from Christianity by those other pagan religions. We see the Trinity in Genesis, in the Creation; so in fact if you believe the bible, and that indeed was the beginning of all things, then God the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit were there far before anything else.
Genesis 1:1 In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth. The earth was without form and void, and darkness was over the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters.
And in verse 26 it says: Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness."
Some will say ' this is God speaking to his angels', but angels are not made in Gods likeness, they are spiritual beings, and while they can take on human form (as they often do when communicating Gods message to humans in the bible), we see in Revelations that they are vastly different beings then we are.
And of course John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life, and the life was the light of men. ...And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth.

This tells us that all members of the Trinity were present at creation....hard for other religions to have this idea before that.

As to the claim that the Trinity is a 'pagan' and therefore erroneous belief, that is just wrong. We see this so often in scripture; mostly in the New T, but also in the Old. That our one God exists in three persons, and we see this by how the different members of the Trinity function in human history. They relate to one another and play different roles. Some examples are:
At Jesus' baptism by John, where the Son is anointed for his public ministry by the Spirit, descending as a dove, with the Father declaring from heaven, "This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased" (Matt 3:13-17). All three persons of the Trinity are present, and each one is doing something different.
The bible goes on and on in reference to the plurality of God, speaking of God the Father, the Son and Holy Spirit. Prayers and songs are given to all three...it is clear that Jesus' disciples and apostles regard it this way. The worshiped Jesus as God, they recognized that he was sent by the Father, and they knew they had the empowering Spirit within them, helping their ministry.

As far as you not being an Adventist, I am interested in what you do call yourself. There are an interesting number of would be "christian" faiths, but they differ so significantly with major Christian doctrines and historic orthodoxy (by this I mean the doctrine set in apostolic times, and also the leading church fathers). They are also incompatible with trusting in the Jesus Christ of the Bible for the salvation that comes by God's grace alone.
Some cults that do not believe in the Trinity are: Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, Christian Science.
These are religions that claim to be christian, but if we want to consider other religions that deny the Trinity we could even go to Islam, Judaism etc.
So out of interest, what do you call yourself? Because based on Christian doctrine, the Trinity is very real and quite frankly, one of the necessary claims of Christianity. Every Protestant or Catholic church will agree on this....not on a lot of things! But the Trinity? There is no doubt! So if you don't, what do you call yourself??

I will tell you I'm neither Mormon, JW., OR Christian Science. I follow the true and living God. The God Of Abraham , Issac, and Israel(Jacob). No titles. Just a Bible following Christian. And as for the word "spirit" in the Bible it is use inner changeably. God uses the word spirit to speak of his angels. God uses the word spirit to speak of the breath of life. God uses the word spirit to speak of His words. Now that I made this statement let me back it up with scripture.
1.) God uses the word "spirit" to speak of his angels.

Isaiah 63 :[sup]7[/sup]I will mention the lovingkindnesses of the LORD, and the praises of the LORD, according to all that the LORD hath bestowed on us, and the great goodness toward the house of Israel, which he hath bestowed on them according to his mercies, and according to the multitude of his lovingkindnesses. [sup]8[/sup]For he said, Surely they are my people, children that will not lie: so he was their Saviour.

[sup]9[/sup]In all their affliction he was afflicted, and the angel of his presence saved them: in his love and in his pity he redeemed them; and he bare them, and carried them all the days of old.

[sup]10[/sup]But they rebelled, and vexed his holy Spirit: therefore he was turned to be their enemy, and he fought against them.


Here it is saying they vexed his holy spirit (the angel) Not God!

Another example in the New Testament.

Acts8:[sup]26[/sup]And the angel of the Lord spake unto Philip, saying, Arise, and go toward the south unto the way that goeth down from Jerusalem unto Gaza, which is desert.

[sup]27[/sup]And he arose and went: and, behold, a man of Ethiopia, an eunuch of great authority under Candace queen of the Ethiopians, who had the charge of all her treasure, and had come to Jerusalem for to worship,

[sup]28[/sup]Was returning, and sitting in his chariot read Esaias the prophet.

[sup]29[/sup]Then the Spirit said unto Philip, Go near, and join thyself to this chariot.


First the angel of the Lord spoke to Philip, then the Spirit said to Philip. This angel and Spirit are one and the same. Why would the angel have to tell Philip anything, if the Spirit inside of him could of told him. Lets read with some understanding. Let continue to verse to vs 39 [sup]39[/sup]And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing. What spirit of the Lord? The angel who spoke to Philip from the beginning was consider the spirit of the Lord. Or did the angel start the conversation, and God the Holy Ghost finished it? Again read with an open a clear view of the scriptures. If you read the scriptures with a preconceived notion. You can see what ever you want to see.

2.) God uses the word "spirit" to speak of the breath of life

Lets start at Genesis

Genesis 2:[sup]7[/sup]And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.


God breathed into his nostrils the breath of life. Remember that.

Job 27:[sup]2[/sup]As God liveth, who hath taken away my judgment; and the Almighty, who hath vexed my soul;

[sup]3[/sup]All the while my breath is in me, and the spirit of God is in my nostrils; Moses said spirit in nostrils. Job called it spirit of God in his nostrils.



3.)God uses the word "spirit" to speak of His words.


John 6:


[sup]60[/sup]Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard this, said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it?

[sup]61[/sup]When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you?

[sup]62[/sup]What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?

[sup]63[/sup]It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life

Jesus Himself said that His words were spirit and they are life. So lets put all together. God's word is spirit, and holy = Holy Spirit .... So when you read, and accept this holy word, you get understanding, and are full of His Holy Spirit.
God's holy angel = God's Holy Spirit. Angels are ministering spirits.
Heb. 1: [sup]13[/sup]But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?[sup]14[/sup]Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?
And finally when a man dies, His God's spirit in the nostrils goes back to God who gave it.
Eccl. 1:[sup]7[/sup]Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it. His spirit or (breath of life) return back to God who gave it.

So as far as you pointing out the "trinity" in Gen 1....... The spirit hovering over the water is just God's power. Don't let the word spirit confuse you. There are too many examples of the Bible which show the father and son being God. No where, unless you personally interpret it, show the Holy Spirit as God. The bible clearly says Jesus the son was God. And everyone knows the father is God.
Psalm. 110:[sup]1[/sup]The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.
Psalm 45: [sup]6[/sup]Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: the sceptre of thy kingdom is a right sceptre. [sup]7[/sup]Thou lovest righteousness, and hatest wickedness: therefore God (1), thy God(2), hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

Once again only father and son.

John 1: [sup]1[/sup]In the beginning was the Word (1), and the Word was with God (2), and the Word was God. I notice I haven't seen three yet!!

1 john 5
:[sup]7[/sup]For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
This doesn't mean three persons in one God. They are all one in thought, Like if you and your wife had the same beliefs you would be both one in spirit. Like with what Paul said in Ephesians 4:[sup]4[/sup]There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; [sup]5[/sup]One Lord, one faith, one baptism, [sup]6[/sup]One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

Their is NO three persons in God. Just the Father and Son are God. The Holy Spirit = God's holy word. and God's ministering spirit (angels).

You can say I'm in a cult. But I keep God's law, minus sacrificial, His Feast Days, not those pagan days, Christmas, Easter, and Halloween. All the holidays the so called modern day Christian's keep. I keep the Lord's Sabbath Day. Not the pagan Sunday worship like most of the modern day Christians keep. Most of the beliefs taught and spread started in the 4th century. Starting with Constantine the Roman emperor. Christmas (winter solstice), Easter (goddess of fertility), Halloween ( Hollows Eve) . ALL PAGAN FESTIVALS. SO BEFORE YOU DECIDE TO CALL ME HERETIC, OR SAY I'M IN A CULT. WATCH YOUR OWN ACTIONS, IF YOU KEEP THESE HOLIDAYS.... WELL THEN THAT'S BETWEEN YOU AND GOD!!!!

 

[Xanderoc]

Hello Foreigner,

St. Peter is not saying that St. Paul is wrong. St. Paul was an Apostle led by the same Holy Spirit as St. Peter. In his letter to the Romans, St. Paul is saying that we can eat anything we want, and that we are not to judge a person by what they eat. That is not a distortion of Scripture.

There are many laws in the Old Testament, and some of the laws no longer applies since Christ died on the cross. The law of animal sacrifice was commanded by God. So, why don't we sacrifice animals today? The law says that those who commit adultery are to be stoned to death. So, why are we not stoning adulters to death? Circumcision of the flesh was also commanded by God, but in the New Testament, we find that circumcision of the flesh is not nescessary. As you can see, God changed His mind about circumcision of the flesh. The dietary laws also don't apply according to St. Paul to the Romans.

Romans 14:2-6, 14-15 One person believes that one may eat anything, while the weak person eats only vegetables. The one who eats must not despise the one who abstains, and the one who abstains must not pass judgement on the one who eats; for God has welcomed him. Who are you to pass judgement on someone else's servant? For one person considers one day more important than another, while another person considers all days alike. Let everyone be fully persuaded in his own mind. Whoever observes the day, observes it for the Lord. Also whoever eats, eats for the Lord, since he gives thanks to God; while whoever abstains, abstains for the Lord and gives thanks to God............I know and am convinced in the Lord Jesus that nothing is unclean in itself; still it is unclean for someone who thinks it unclean. If your brother is being hurt by what you eat, your conduct is no longer in accord with love. Do not because of your food destroy him for whom Christ died.

The Scripture is clear and I am not distorting it at all. I am reading it as it says. In the New Testament, the Holy Spirit said through St. Paul that one person may eat anything and we are not to pass judgement on that person. That person who eats anything eats for the Lord and gives thanks to God. Yes, it is true that God told Noah what animal he can eat. It is also true that Moses through the inspiration of the Holy Spirit wrote what animals are clean and unclean. It is also through the same Holy Spirit that St. Paul is now declaring that a person can eat anything.

Yes, God can change His mind about certain things and He is not breaking any moral law in doing it. He got rid of animal sacrifice because it is no longer needed. He also replaced the law of stoning and putting people to death for adultery and other offenses. He replaced it with mercy. This is why we are against the death penalty or capital punishment. He also got rid of the dietary laws because as St. Paul says, "If your brother is being hurt by what you eat, your conduct is no longer in accord with love. Do not because of your food destroy him for whom Christ died."

In Christ,
Selene

Then Selene, please explain to me why God's inspirational spirit had Isaiah write what the Lord will do to people for eating swines flesh. God's wrath is going to come to this world, the same way it came in Noah's time. No one believed what Noah was doing. When he build the ark people probably thought he was crazy. No one believed, the same way people don't believe today. People, don't wait until the wrath of the Lord!!! Consider Isaiah's prophecy of the Lord future wrath.

 

[Eccl.12:13]

Quoting isolated sentences verbatim from prophecy’s and prophetic books is not the best way to build rational arguments…

According to God's holy word it is in thise way we ARE supposed to rationlized and prove doctrine; Let's read....

Isa.28
[10] For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:

Topic with topic....here a bit and there a bit!

But are we to read only the NT? Let's read...

Luke 4
[4] And Jesus answered him, saying, It is written, That man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God.

Using EVERY WORD of God. That means, Gen. to Rev.

And are we to rely upon what the prophets said? Of course....

2 Peter 1
[21] For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

And did Paul believe ALL that the prophets said? Yep....

Acts 24
[14] But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:

Now let's read something else about the OT.....


2 Tim.3
[15] And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

Now just which scriptures is Timothy being told would give him salvation? We know it's NOT the NT!!!

It's the same scriptures that ALL of the apostels read to all that would trust and follow the true and living God....

The Old Testiment!!!!

Now to address your other statement;

The whole of the law was transformed. Also, there are many words here but no point. You are accusing others of stopping their reading of the law at an arbitrary point. If this is an error, it is also one that you commit. You seem happy to ignore the laws of clothing, the paraphernalia of the priesthood, almost all of the hygiene laws, the rules for the diagnosis of skin conditions, laws for the suspicion of infidelity. In short, over 600 rules of Leviticus and Duet. You say that only 1 law has changed, but you ignore over 600.

Now here is where you are completely wrong.....

I do NOT ignore ANY of God's other laws....there IS only (1) law that was nailed to His cross and that is the ONLY one I, or anyone else, no longer need to keep.

ALL of God's other laws are still binding and to be kept, that would include hygiene laws, the rules for the diagnosis of skin conditions, laws for the suspicion of infidelity and anything else God told man to keep. All of these laws I try to keep to the best of my ability.....every last one of them! And to be honest, most are easy to keep. What makes it hard is the society we live in, NOT God's laws!

There are THOUSANDS of tax laws alone that MOST try to keep......just TAX LAWS!

God made it very easy for man......just over 600! And about 1/4th of those consists of the (1) set of laws that were nailed to His cross!

Again.....there was only one law that was changed...NOT "...The whole of the law..."!

There was one law that was changed....

It was the law that was added!
It was the law that God never liked!
It was the law that could not make the people perfect!
It was the law that was to be replaced by another!
It was the law that was against the people!


Now what had to be changed about, Do not Kill, lie, covet, steel? Are NOT these laws still around and to be kept by ALL mankind? Do these laws keep mankind at peace or are these laws against mankind.


Rach....You think I am the one that is blind. You think you are the one that knows!

Can you tell me which of God's laws fit ALL of the conditions above?



.

 

[Selene]

Then Selene, please explain to me why God's inspirational spirit had Isaiah write what the Lord will do to people for eating swines flesh. God's wrath is going to come to this world, the same way it came in Noah's time. No one believed what Noah was doing. When he build the ark people probably thought he was crazy. No one believed, the same way people don't believe today. People, don't wait until the wrath of the Lord!!! Consider Isaiah's prophecy of the Lord future wrath.

Hello Xander,

In Isaiah 66, the prophet was saying that those who sacrificed animals to idols will be punished. Chapter 66 of Isaiah starts out by pointing out the difference between true and false worship. The scripture goes on to show the Israelites what God will do if they worship idols. Any animal that is sacrificed to idols are not to be eaten. That has always been the commandment of our Lord and this commandment still exists and is to be followed. For example, lambs can be eaten, but lambs sacrficied to idols are not to be eaten.(Acts 15:29).

Isaiah 65:4 shows that those who sleep in the temple of idols and eat swine's flesh are those who worship false Gods. In Isaiah 66:17, it tells what God will do to those who worship false gods. In the New Testament, St. Paul tells us that we can eat any food and that we are not to judge our brother in what he eats. However, St. Paul also tells us that foods and meat sacrificed to idols are not to be eaten (See 1 Corinthians 8).

In Christ,
Selene

 

[Xanderoc]

Hello Xander,

In Isaiah 66, the prophet was saying that those who sacrificed animals to idols will be punished. Chapter 66 of Isaiah starts out by pointing out the difference between true and false worship. The scripture goes on to show the Israelites what God will do if they worship idols. Any animal that is sacrificed to idols are not to be eaten. That has always been the commandment of our Lord and this commandment still exists and is to be followed. For example, lambs can be eaten, but lambs sacrficied to idols are not to be eaten.(Acts 15:29).

Isaiah 65:4 shows that those who sleep in the temple of idols and eat swine's flesh are those who worship false Gods. In Isaiah 66:17, it tells what God will do to those who worship false gods. In the New Testament, St. Paul tells us that we can eat any food and that we are not to judge our brother in what he eats. However, St. Paul also tells us that foods and meat sacrificed to idols are not to be eaten (See 1 Corinthians 8).

In Christ,
Selene

Well if that is what you read, hey that is your opinion. Isaiah 66:
[sup]16[/sup]For[sup](A)[/sup] by fire[sup](B)[/sup] will the LORD enter into judgment,
and by his sword, with all flesh;
and those slain by the LORD shall be many.

I'm sorry but this looks like judgment on earth when He returns. ALL FLESH... means ALL FLESH. Then He goes on to say in vs 17


[sup]17[/sup][sup](C)[/sup] "Those who sanctify and purify themselves to go into the gardens, following one in the midst,[sup](D)[/sup] eating pig’s flesh and the abomination and mice, shall come to an end together, declares the LORD.

Gardens( place of worship) one in the mist (Satan the devil) eating pig's flesh, and mice, shall come to an end together, declares the LORD. I see nothing here about sacrificing to idols. I see eating unclean food. Future wrath for eating unclean food. That is what I see, and I can't take the chance misunderstanding something written in Paul's writing. Salvation is too precious to loose over some food.

 

[Rach1370]

Oh, for goodness sake you two. You continuously miss the point. You jump on single verses (from both old and new testaments) and then base your erroneous arguments on your twisted version of them, ALL the time ignoring the bulk of the rest of our questioning and proofs.
I could go through your posts point by point refuting them with scripture until Christ returns, but you still would not see truth. You do not wish to see truth.
You are both so very wrong, and I pray with all my heart that any Christian or non Christian who come across this post (and all your others), will not be turned from Christ by your legalistic regurgitation.
I do so very much want to continue to try and show you what your bible actually says, but if you have blindly ignored all posts before this, it will be a waste of my time. If at any point either of you actually bother reading the New Testament IN CONTEXT, well then, maybe then.
But as long as you refuse Jesus (and make no mistake, that is exactly what you're doing. You deny the Trinity, deny His saving work on the cross - making His sacrifice as nothing by trying to earn salvation by holding to the old laws.) then there is 0 point arguing with you.
The very fact that your post is titled: "God will kill some for not keeping his dietary laws" and then you freely confess that you can only TRY to keep laws, means you are aware that keeping the old laws is impossible in totality. Of course, unless you are the "some" that won't be killed. Which makes 0 sense, again.
You really need to know: Its ALL about Jesus, ONLY about Jesus and ALWAYS about Jesus. Until you see that, you may as well just tear the New Testament out.

Now, I know you will twist the meaning of this passage, or just dismiss it, as it is NT, but it could be talking directly at you.
"You stiff-necked people, uncircumcised in heart and ears, you always resist the Holy Spirit. As your fathers did, so do you. Which of the prophets did your fathers not persecute? And they killed those who announced beforehand the coming of the Righteous One, whom you have now betrayed and murdered, you who received the law as delivered by angels and did not keep it." Acts 7:51-53

 

[Eccl.12:13]

Let me ask the forum yet another question that has been ignored;

Will God's dietary laws be kept here on earth during His 1000yr rule? After all, there will still be flesh and blood beings here. Do you think Israelite or non Israelite will be allowed to eat whatever they choose?

Or do some still believe God has two agendas and that the nation of Israel will not be allowed to eat certain beast, while non Israelites are permitted and yet BOTH receive the same promise?

Are there some that honestly believe God will allow some of His children to transgress His laws and give them the SAME reward as those that did not transgress?

Does not sound like a very fair God to me if that is the case!

God came to die for ALL! Why? Because ALL have sinned...all have broken God's laws. Whether you are an Israelite or a Gentile ALL have trangressed God's commandments!

Which is why the scriptures says the following....

1 John 2
[2] And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

So who was under God's laws?

"The whole world"

So who will be punished for breaking God's laws?

"The whole world"!

God does not have two agendas or sets of laws. God does not have a set that must be kept by the nation of Israel and another set of laws for the Gentiles.

Isa.56
[1] Thus saith the LORD, Keep ye judgment, and do justice: for my salvation is near to come, and my righteousness to be revealed.
[2] Blessed is the man that doeth this, and the son of man that layeth hold on it; that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and keepeth his hand from doing any evil.
[3] Neither let the son of the stranger, that hath joined himself to the LORD, speak, saying, The LORD hath utterly separated me from his people: neither let the eunuch say, Behold, I am a dry tree.
[4] For thus saith the LORD unto the eunuchs that keep my sabbaths, and choose the things that please me, and take hold of my covenant;
[5] Even unto them will I give in mine house and within my walls a place and a name better than of sons and of daughters: I will give them an everlasting name, that shall not be cut off.
[6] Also the sons of the stranger, that join themselves to the LORD, to serve him, and to love the name of the LORD, to be his servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant;
[7] Even them will I bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer: their burnt offerings and their sacrifices shall be accepted upon mine altar; for mine house shall be called an house of prayer for all people.

Please note.....the word "sojourn" is NOT used here. God's Holy Spirit had the prophet to use "join" and "serve"; words that are NOT temporary!!

God's laws are for ALL that choose to follow and serve!



.

 

[Selene]

Well if that is what you read, hey that is your opinion. Isaiah 66:
[sup]16[/sup]For[sup](A)[/sup] by fire[sup](B)[/sup] will the LORD enter into judgment,
and by his sword, with all flesh;
and those slain by the LORD shall be many.

I'm sorry but this looks like judgment on earth when He returns. ALL FLESH... means ALL FLESH. Then He goes on to say in vs 17


[sup]17[/sup][sup](C)[/sup] "Those who sanctify and purify themselves to go into the gardens, following one in the midst,[sup](D)[/sup] eating pig’s flesh and the abomination and mice, shall come to an end together, declares the LORD.

Gardens( place of worship) one in the mist (Satan the devil) eating pig's flesh, and mice, shall come to an end together, declares the LORD. I see nothing here about sacrificing to idols. I see eating unclean food. Future wrath for eating unclean food. That is what I see, and I can't take the chance misunderstanding something written in Paul's writing. Salvation is too precious to loose over some food.

Hello Xander,

It is not my opinion. It is clearly what the Bible is saying. The reason you don't see worshipping idols is because you are only reading half of one thing and not reading the whole. This is what the verse says as you pointed out:

Isaiah 66:17 They who sanctify and purify themselves to go to the groves, as followers of one of who stands within, they who eat swine's flesh, loathsome things and mice, shall all perish with their deeds and their thoughts, says the Lord.


That is the entire verse. Who are those who sanctify and purify themselves in the groves (or garden)? You will find that answer in Isaiah 65. The "one who stands within" is not God. It is the temple priests who worship idols. That is defined in Isaiah 65.

Isaiah 65:2-5 I have stretched out my hands all the day to a rebellious people, who walk in evil paths, and follow their own thoughts, People who provoke me continually, to my face, offering sacrifices in the groves and burning incense on bricks, Living among the graves and spending the night in caverns, eating swine's flesh, with carrion broth in their dishes, crying out, "Hold back, do not touch me; I am too sacred for you!"

These are the same people whom Isaiah was speaking about in chapter 66. Therefore, the prophet Isaiah is saying that the idol worshippers who offer those sacrifices in the groves and eat swine will be punished. The sacrifices they offer is the swine. And the Lord our God forbids eating meat of any kind offered to idols.

In Christ,
Selene

 

[Selene]

Let me ask the forum yet another question that has been ignored;

Will God's dietary laws be kept here on earth during His 1000yr rule? After all, there will still be flesh and blood beings here. Do you think Israelite or non Israelite will be allowed to eat whatever they choose?

Or do some still believe God has two agendas and that the nation of Israel will not be allowed to eat certain beast, while non Israelites are permitted and yet BOTH receive the same promise?

Hello Eccl.,

I don't think the dietary rules have anything to do with God's promise of eternal salvation. Animal sacrifices that were once commanded by God no longer needs to be followed. Changing the law of animal sacrifice does not have any effect on God's promise of eternal salvation. The same is true with the dietary laws as St. Paul says:

Romans 14:2-6, 14-15 One person believes that one may eat anything, while the weak person eats only vegetables. The one who eats must not despise the one who abstains, and the one who abstains must not pass judgement on the one who eats; for God has welcomed him. Who are you to pass judgement on someone else's servant? For one person considers one day more important than another, while another person considers all days alike. Let everyone be fully persuaded in his own mind. Whoever observes the day, observes it for the Lord. Also whoever eats, eats for the Lord, since he gives thanks to God; while whoever abstains, abstains for the Lord and gives thanks to God............I know and am convinced in the Lord Jesus that nothing is unclean in itself; still it is unclean for someone who thinks it unclean. If your brother is being hurt by what you eat, your conduct is no longer in accord with love. Do not because of your food destroy him for whom Christ died.

As for Christ's reign for 1000 years, who knows if dietary laws are even needed during that time. During Christ's reign on earth, there will be no wars and no killings. So, it's possible that all of us and even all the animals would become vegetarians. Maybe even the Venus flytrap would become vegetarian.

In Christ,
Selene

 

[Foreigner]

"As one who is in the Lord Jesus, I am fully convinced that no food is unclean in itself. But if anyone regards something as unclean, then for him it is unclean." - Romans 14:14


-- "I am convinced that NO FOOD is unclean in itself." - Paul

You want to think something is unclean, knock yourself out.

Me, I'm with Paul on this one.

 

[Eccl.12:13]

"As one who is in the Lord Jesus, I am fully convinced that no food is unclean in itself. But if anyone regards something as unclean, then for him it is unclean." - Romans 14:14


-- "I am convinced that NO FOOD is unclean in itself." - Paul

You want to think something is unclean, knock yourself out.

Me, I'm with Paul on this one.

Again....that is fine! But you still have this verse that you cannot ignore that says the following;

Isa.66
[16] For by fire and by his sword will the LORD plead with all flesh: and the slain of the LORD shall be many.
[17] They that sanctify themselves, and purify themselves in the gardens behind one tree in the midst, eating swine's flesh, and the abomination, and the mouse, shall be consumed together, saith the LORD.

Like it, believe it, trust it or not, God IS going to consume some for eating unclean foods!

As I have said before...this lesson is not to try to change minds, it's for those that may have never heard this topic talked about or may never have even read this verse in the bible. It gives those with an ear to hear something to consider!

Something else I have asked, do you not think the Lord is going to teach man ALL of the laws He first gave us when He returns to earth to rule for 1000 years?

There will be flesh and blood beings here and some have suggested we will return to being vegetarians as the whole earth once was. That very well may be the case, but there will yet be unclean beast doing the job that God created them to do.

Do you not think the Lord will enforce His laws in which just touching an unclean beast will make the individual unclean for a certain amount of time?

Just as ALL nations, Israelites AND Gentiles, will come to worship the Lord on His 7th day sabbath and keep His Feast days, so will ALL nations obey and keep His cleanliness laws!

.

 

[aspen]

The very fact that this thread is still continuing after the majority of Christians on this board have explained Paul's position in the NT, which is considered a fulfillment of the OT by Christians screams loud and clear that a minority of people want to promote the idea that God is going to punish Paul and everyone who believes what he taught in the NT. I think it is interesting that the same people who are promoting this idea also claim that they are not actually trying to convince other Christians of any certain teaching, yet if this were actually the case, there would be no need to post a second time on the topic. Just pointing out what I am seeing.

Peace

For the record, I understand that you believe the OT punishment for eating certain animals trumps Paul's teachings - there is no need to explain further. Thanks!

 

[Eccl.12:13]

For the record, I understand that you believe the OT punishment for eating certain animals trumps Paul's teachings - there is no need to explain further. Thanks!

No....you just THINK what I believe trumps what Paul is saying.

For the record, let's read just what Paul believed.....

Acts 24
[10] Then Paul, after that the governor had beckoned unto him to speak, answered, Forasmuch as I know that thou hast been of many years a judge unto this nation, I do the more cheerfully answer for myself:
[14] But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:

Paul says he too believed ALL things in the law AND the prophets! That would include the prophet Isaiah!!!

Paul and I are on the same page!

BTW....maybe you can help Bud02 answer the following;

Are we to keep the law of not having respect of persons even though it is not part of the (10)?

.

 

[aspen]

No....you just THINK what I believe trumps what Paul is saying.

For the record, let's read just what Paul believed.....

Acts 24
[10] Then Paul, after that the governor had beckoned unto him to speak, answered, Forasmuch as I know that thou hast been of many years a judge unto this nation, I do the more cheerfully answer for myself:
[14] But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:

Paul says he too believed ALL things in the law AND the prophets! That would include the prophet Isaiah!!!

Paul and I are on the same page!

BTW....maybe you can help Bud02 answer the following;

Of course Paul believed ALL things in the law and prophets! Even the laws that were fulfilled - which is why he no longer sacrificed animals or followed dietary laws - they were fulfilled in Christ! How exciting!!!

Peace