Manifestations

[marksman]

The closest thing i can think of is back in the 1970's they had a live TV show where they would hypnotize the whole audience ..... the hypnotists could make everybody roll on the floor laughing .... or at his command everyone would crawl around and bark as dogs.

And the sorcerers in Moses day copied what God did through Moses, but that did not invalidate what Moses did.

I have been a pretty solid christian for almost 27 years ..... back then i also spent some time in the pentecostal churches ..... I have seen it all.

What is a "solid" christian Brother?

It is much easier to work with someone who is at least moving.

I have noticed that God guides a moving vessel, not a stationary one. A stationary one is going nowhere.

In any case I choose to believe the Spirit that has lead me for many years, than to prostitute myself out to something the HS has not lead me to do.

I'm curious. Did the Holy Spirit tell you to contribute a tenth of your income to the church?

I don't have to prove anything, BOTH videos speak clearly for themselves. It's the deceived and ignorant that refuse to heed the clear warnings to stay AWAY from those kind of manifestations because they are NOT of God.

Nor am I just basing what I said about those manifestations among pagan practices just from that kundalini video. I'm familiar from having studied about paganism and mysticism and pagan religious history many years ago.

But if you actually want... to partake in those kind of pagan manifestations from another spirit, then have a good trip.

Dear Brother, for that is what you are, the scriptures tell us to edify one another and build each other up.

This last comment of yours does neither. In fact it is very patronising and gives the impression that you are somehow, superior to the rest of us.

Having been part of a company of God's people that experienced revival for 30 years, I think I can safely say I know enough to know what is of God and what is not of God.

I am very aware that there is a section of the Church that abhors any physical or emotional manifestation and God is only pleased when everything is done decently and in order, meaning a programme and a hymn/song prayer sandwich.

I am also very aware that in the 60s, there was a visitation of God on the historical churches in the UK and those that embraced this move of God and gave place to the manifestation of the Spirit, grew and grew and grew.

And like you, there were plenty who said it was of the devil. Those who didn't went on their merry way and enjoyed all the benefits and blessings it brought.

This will happen until the second coming of Christ because there is a true church and there is a false church. There are true shepherds and there are false shepherds. There are true prophets and there are false prophets. There are true teachers and there are false teachers.

If you care to look through church history, you will find that God decides what is of him, not man so, while I am cognisant of your arguments, I reject them because I have seen the hand of God at work and know otherwise.

And I have this blessed quality that I don't judge a book by its cover. No church does everything right, but I don't reject them because they do SOME things wrong. The main question is, are they allowing people to grow deeper in their faith and to get to know the God of their salvation.

You will be surprised how many churches do not.

 

[veteran]

Dear V,

So really, you are saying because God has done something in the past He cannot do something different in the future? Therefore, anything that deviates from His past actions is a test to see if we will be lured away by false teachers and false prophets? Do you even realize what you are saying? Do you even know the God who gives good gifts to His children that ask?

I don't know where this mentality comes from but it is certainly not scriptural. If you purport to follow the example of Jesus then you should not always be expecting God to do something just like He has done before. Jesus gave the Pharisees fits because he did not follow their religious views...to them what He did and said was so different than what they believed they wanted to stone Him. Are you honestly saying that God cannot do anything new?

Our Heavenly Father will NOT do anything in this world time that He says He will not do. Apparently, you're lacking in knowledge of what He said He will and will not do according to His Holy Writ. So if a miracle-show is what you're after, go to, fill yourself up with that and disregard what He and His servants warned of for the end of this world.

Dear Brother, for that is what you are, the scriptures tell us to edify one another and build each other up.

This last comment of yours does neither. In fact it is very patronising and gives the impression that you are somehow, superior to the rest of us.

Having been part of a company of God's people that experienced revival for 30 years, I think I can safely say I know enough to know what is of God and what is not of God.

I am very aware that there is a section of the Church that abhors any physical or emotional manifestation and God is only pleased when everything is done decently and in order, meaning a programme and a hymn/song prayer sandwich.

I am also very aware that in the 60s, there was a visitation of God on the historical churches in the UK and those that embraced this move of God and gave place to the manifestation of the Spirit, grew and grew and grew.

And like you, there were plenty who said it was of the devil. Those who didn't went on their merry way and enjoyed all the benefits and blessings it brought.

This will happen until the second coming of Christ because there is a true church and there is a false church. There are true shepherds and there are false shepherds. There are true prophets and there are false prophets. There are true teachers and there are false teachers.

If you care to look through church history, you will find that God decides what is of him, not man so, while I am cognisant of your arguments, I reject them because I have seen the hand of God at work and know otherwise.

And I have this blessed quality that I don't judge a book by its cover. No church does everything right, but I don't reject them because they do SOME things wrong. The main question is, are they allowing people to grow deeper in their faith and to get to know the God of their salvation.

You will be surprised how many churches do not.

My comment was 'on the mark'. If a believer on Christ Jesus wants to become a spiritual whore in going after miracle shows and spirits that go peep, then they deserve to be mocked and ridiculed, because that's how our Heavenly Father reacts to those things also, as did those of His servants like Elijah. You'd know that if you'd studied enough of your Bible besides just the New Testament Books.

 

[marksman]

My comment was 'on the mark'. If a believer on Christ Jesus wants to become a spiritual whore in going after miracle shows and spirits that go peep, then they deserve to be mocked and ridiculed, because that's how our Heavenly Father reacts to those things also, as did those of His servants like Elijah. You'd know that if you'd studied enough of your Bible besides just the New Testament Books.

With all due respects brother, you are going from bad to worse. As I said in a previous post.....

"Dear Brother, for that is what you are, the scriptures tell us to edify one another and build each other up.

This last comment of yours does neither. In fact it is very patronising and gives the impression that you are somehow, superior to the rest of us."

Your latest comment reeks of pride and of someone who is deluded. You are not John Macarthur by any chance?

He said in one of his books that miracles do not happen today. The book I read before reading his was one about a church movement in Africa where miracles happened every week. like him, I assume you believe that the people being healed and raised from the dead there was the devil fooling everyone.

 

[Justin Mangonel]

Dear All,

I wonder how many recognize the spirits that manifest themselves about manifestations. My goodness.

Blessings,

Justin

 

[marksman]

Our Heavenly Father will NOT do anything in this world time that He says He will not do.

Where does it say that he will only heal the sick whilst he was on earth?

 

[dragonfly]

Hi marksman,

As I'm reading through this thread, I don't think that's what veteran meant at all - that He had to be present personally for miracles or deliverances to occur. We see in the first few chapters of the Acts (of the Holy Spirit through His apostles) that God has not stopped working on earth. All that veteran is saying, is that scripture gives us the boundaries of Godly manifestations by which to recognise unGodly manifestations.

Without doubt, there are so-called healers who work under the influence of demons to bring about healings which are very real in the lives of those who receive them. But, where is the glory for God in those happenings? The 'healer' cannot claim to be operating in a gift of the Holy Spirit as a function of the body of Christ. Rather, no matter how self-effacing his public persona, he is secretly satisfied with his demonic encounter and its effects, and it makes him feel important, or special, or - if he thinks that doing 'good' will help get him to heaven - that God must be pleased with him. But he is deceived.

I have not read every post in this thread, but let me say clearly, that I do not believe the Holy Spirit Himself barks like a dog or makes other animal sounds through the agency of a human. He may come to drive out other spirits which manifest in those ways, but He Himself always comes to manifest the glory of Christ, and to restore the image of God in man (men, women and children). I am not keen, either - because I do not see it in scripture - on the whole falling down, or slain in the Spirit phenomena, although I accept that it happens.

I myself have become too weak to stand while the Holy Spirit was ministering to me. But, the person who had prayed for me had allowed me to remain seated, which I believe is the right/decent thing to do for a soul who needs the Lord's intense ministry for a short period.

 

[marksman]

As I'm reading through this thread, I don't think that's what veteran meant at all -

Then the best person to say what he meant is Veteran. That way we are not open to speculation and conjecture.

I myself have become too weak to stand while the Holy Spirit was ministering to me. But, the person who had prayed for me had allowed me to remain seated, which I believe is the right/decent thing to do for a soul who needs the Lord's intense ministry for a short period.

"Which I believe..." says it all. There are many who believe otherwise. So, who are we to believe? Some say they have scripture to back them up and others with a different belief say they have scripture to back them up. So whose interpretation do we accept?

I was given a book which says what Baptists believe in preparation for so called "church membership." I picked out 31 things that they believe which are not found in scripture. When I pointed this out to them, they refused me membership.

Which only goes to show that what someone or a denomination believes ain't always the truth.

The fact is, only the Holy Spirit can lead you into all truth and the more you experience of him the more truth he will reveal. That is why those who do not acknowledge the ministry and gifts of the Spirit will always rubbish what the Spirit is doing that doesn't fit in with their theology of powerlessness and the letter which kills. Only the Spirit brings life.

 

[dragonfly]

Hi marksman,

Thanks for your reply. Yes, I'm sure veteran will clarify his point when he catches up with this thread. I did not mean to aggravate the discourse.

I hope I have not given you the impression that I am against the operation of the gifts of the Spirit? I am very much for them, in fact, but you would have to agree that there is not one mention in scripture of a person falling to the ground because of the operation of the Holy Spirit in response to prayer. The only falling about in scripture is attributed to unclean or evil spirits.

I believe (This is not a tenet of the Christian faith, but I do hold this 'belief'.) that at least some of the falling down 'under the Spirit' happens because it is expected by someone present. But then... we have the testimony of Carter Conlon, who was not expecting to fall down, and wouldn't let anyone stand behind him while he was prayed for to receive the Holy Spirit, who did fall to the ground immediately the Spirit came to him. It is, nevertheless, an assumption on the part of observers that it is always the Holy Spirit which has caused a person to fall down.

And just because a person is on the floor, expecting to be ministered to by the Holy Spirit, doesn't mean that they are being (ministered to by the Holy Spirit). A great deal of integrity is needed by the pray-er, and wisdom by the person choosing to put themself forward for prayer. They should have an assurance in their spirit that they can trust the minister.

I don't say this in any way negatively with respect to the testimony you've given in other threads. I, too, am speaking from experience when I make these comments. The person who falls down has to have permission to get back up whenever they want to, especially if it is to regain control of their spiritual situation. 1 Corinthians 14:32. No-one need receive anything dodgy through a questionable minister/ministry.

 

[marksman]

I hope I have not given you the impression that I am against the operation of the gifts of the Spirit? I am very much for them, in fact, but you would have to agree that there is not one mention in scripture of a person falling to the ground because of the operation of the Holy Spirit in response to prayer. The only falling about in scripture is attributed to unclean or evil spirits.

We must be careful when making statements like this as the church often ignores what the scripture DOES SAY.

For example in Psalm 47:1 it says "Clap your hands, all you peoples; shout to God with the voice of triumph."

How many churches clap their hands and shout in praise to God?

In Psalm 149:3 it says "Let them praise His name in the dance; let them sing praises to Him with the timbrel and harp."

How many churches allow people to dance in the meeting or to play a tambourine or harp?

In Psalm 150:3-5 it says "Praise Him with the sound of the trumpet; praise Him with the harp and lyre. Praise Him with the timbrel and dance; praise Him with stringed instruments and pipes. Praise Him on the sounding cymbals; praise Him with the resounding cymbals.

How many churches do this?

It seems to me that we are more concerned about what we should not do and the negative rather than what we can do and the positive. In safeguarding against the so called negative, we ignore the positive so we are shooting ourselves in the foot and robbing ourselves of God's best in order to be seen as doing everything "decently and in order."

And just because a person is on the floor, expecting to be ministered to by the Holy Spirit, doesn't mean that they arebeing (ministered to by the Holy Spirit). A great deal of integrity is needed by the pray-er, and wisdom by the person choosing to put themself forward for prayer. They should have an assurance in their spirit that they can trust the minister.

This topic tends to polarise people and the baby gets thrown out with the bathwater. The scripture is very clear that in the last days there will be all sorts of counterfeits and false pastors/teachers/prophets etc.

That doesn't mean we have to reject everything. Discernment which is one of the gifts of the Spirit is given so that we can discern the good, from the bad and the ugly.

However, there are plenty who do not have any discernment from the Spirit, they prefer to be guided by their own prejudices and as a result, they throw the baby out with the bathwater.

My modus operandi is not to reject or accept anything until I have conclusive evidence as to its authenticity or otherwise. That requires watching, waiting, listening, reading and if possible, experiencing.

If the outcome is that people are delivered, set free, healed or know God in a greater way then I am not going to condemn it.

Those that do because their theology has no place for what is happening (it is known as prejudice) are the last persons I would seek out for advice and truth as all they can do is present biased and blinkered pronouncements. Their security is in what they know, not who they know.

My security is not in what I know but who I know, even though I have four degrees. I know God is crazy about me and the more I allow him to dominate my life the more I am able to discern the truth, which sets me free.

The only falling about in scripture is attributed to unclean or evil spirits.

Not according to these scriptures....

Gen_17:3 And Abram fell on his face. And God spoke with him, saying,

Num_16:22 And they fell on their faces, and said, O God, God of the spirits of all flesh; shall one man sin, and will You be angry with all the congregation?

Num_22:31 And Jehovah opened the eyes of Balaam, and he saw the Angel of Jehovah standing in the road with His sword drawn in His hand. And he bowed and fell on his face.

Deu_9:18 And I fell down before Jehovah, as at the first, forty days and forty nights; I ate no bread and drank no water; because of all your sins which you had sinned, in doing that which was
evil in the eyes of Jehovah, to make Him angry.

Jos_5:14 And He said, No, for I now come as the Commander of the army of Jehovah. And Joshua fell on his face to the earth and worshipped. And he said to Him, What does my Lord speak to His slave?

Jdg_13:20 And it happened as the flame from off the altar was going up to the heavens, that the Angel of Jehovah went up in the flame of the altar. And Manoah and his wife were watching. And they fell on their faces to the ground.

1Ki_18:38 And fire fell from Jehovah and burned up the burnt offering, and the wood, and the stones, and the dust, and the water in the trench was licked up.

2Ki_13:21 and it happened, they were burying a man; and, behold, they saw the band, and threw the man into the grave of Elisha. And the man fell and touched the bones of Elisha, and came alive, and rose on his feet.

1Ch_21:16 And David lifted up his eyes and saw the angel of Jehovah standing between the earth and the heavens, and his sword drawn in his hand, stretched out over Jerusalem; and David and
the elders fell on their faces, covered with sackcloth.

Eze_1:28 As the appearance of the bow that is in the cloud in the day of the rain, so appeared the brightness all around. This was the appearance of the likeness of the glory of Jehovah. And I saw, and I fell on my face, and I heard a voice of One speaking.

Mat_17:6 And hearing, the disciples fell on their face and were greatly terrified.

Joh_18:6 Then when He said to them, I AM, they departed into the rear and fell to the ground.

Act_10:10 And he became hungry and wished to taste food. But as they were preparing, an ecstasy fell on him.

Act_10:44 As Peter was yet speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell on all those hearing the Word.

Rev_1:17 And when I saw Him, I fell at His feet, as dead. And He put His right hand on me, saying to me, Do not fear. I am the First and the Last,

Rev_11:16 And the twenty four elders sitting before God on their thrones fell on their faces and worshipped God,

 

[teamventure]

i'll be forgiving and ignore your red herring earlier in your post above.
those verses you provided described people falling on their face before God in worship. isn't that completely different than falling backwards and uncontrolled? i think even you know the answer to that. (not to mention falling and then shaking)

 

[dragonfly]

Hi marksman,

I acknowledge the scriptures you've listed about falling to worship the Lord God, and yet would point out that no-one falls down to worship the Lord involuntarily. Even Daniel who was feeling extremely weak, knew what he was doing.

Mark 5:6 But when he saw Jesus afar off, he ran and worshipped him.


1 Corinthians 12:1 Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I would not have you ignorant. 2 Ye know that ye were Gentiles, carried away to these dumb idols, even as ye were led. 3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

4 Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit. 5 And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord. 6And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all. 7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.


Psalm 22:3 But thou art holy, O thou that inhabitest the praises of Israel.


1 Corinthians 14:2 For he that speaks in an unknown tongue speaks not unto men, but unto God: for no man understands him; howbeit in the spirit he speaks mysteries. 3 But he that prophesies speaks to men to edification, and exhortation, and comfort. 4 He that speaks in an unknown tongue edifies himself; but he that prophesies edifies the church. 5 I would that ye all spake with tongues, but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesies than he that speaks with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying...

32 And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets.


Ephesians 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: 14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men,and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; 15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ: 16 From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplies, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, makes increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.



I hope I don't need to give too much commentary to the above verses. They all indicate that worship in the Spirit not only is given by God, but it has special up-building effects on those who participate in it, because the Lord Himself engages with Spirit-filled believers through it. No-one is out of control of their faculties when they are manifesting the effects of the indwelling Holy Spirit, even if they are behaving in a way to which they were unaccustomed before they knew the Lord, such as, moving in one of the gifts He has given. They demonstrate the power of God, not the power of some other spirit.


With regard to the other verses you shared about how worship is described in the OT, to some extent it is the liberty of those attending church which is in question, rather than whether it is okay to clap hands, raise arms, shout praises and so on. My background is in house-churches which attempted to be compliant with scriptural exhortations, so I have seen everything you picked out, apart from the trumpet - although I have seen that in a Presbyterian church on a special occasion. I attended a conference once, which had a three-piece 'band' in one of the venues, and the percussionist had an amazing array of options which he played with great spiritual sensitivity. Not once did his contribution inhibit or interfere with true worship in the Spirit. I don't even remember what the other instruments were, because all three were entirely spiritual in their contributions.

 

[marksman]

i'll be forgiving and ignore your red herring earlier in your post above.

What red herring?

those verses you provided described people falling on their face before God in worship. isn't that completely different than falling backwards and uncontrolled? i think even you know the answer to that. (not to mention falling and then shaking)

Judging by this comment, you are keen to read into scripture what you want to see. Please read them again and you will see not everyone said they fell forward on their faces. One said they fell to the ground-didn't say how so you can only surmise, and one said they experienced ecstasy.

What ever that was, in your book that means they must have fell on their faces decently and in order. Have you fell on your face decently and in order lately? If not why not? After all, it is backed up by scripture so it must be OK to do that.

I hope I don't need to give too much commentary to the above verses. They all indicate that worship in the Spirit not only is given by God, but it has special up-building effects on those who participate in it, because the Lord Himself engages with Spirit-filled believers through it. No-one is out of control of their faculties when they are manifesting the effects of the indwelling Holy Spirit, even if they are behaving in a way to which they were unaccustomed before they knew the Lord, such as, moving in one of the gifts He has given. They demonstrate the power of God, not the power of some other spirit.

I think you are mixing up two different spiritual experiences. One deals with the operation of the gifts of the Spirit which are clearly enunciated in scripture but despite this, there are churches which won't have a bar of them.

Then their is the experience of the Holy Spirit falling on people or a congregation, not with the purpose to activate his gifts, but to bring the presence of God into their lives in a supernatural way.

I have experienced both on many occasions, so I am aware there is a difference. Usually when the second takes place one is struck down by the power and holiness of God which one is unable to resist.

When this happens, the transaction is between God and the individual and it affects people in different ways, depending on where they are at in the Lord. I have seen people laugh, cry, groan and just "faint" and lie on the floor as a result. The way that they fell, backwards, forwards, sideways or upwards is of no consequence. What is important is what they experience as a result.

I have read so many testimonies of people that have been to Toronto that said they came alive as a result of their visit so I go by the fruit, not by the spiritually correct theology of people who quite frankly do not know what they are talking about.

If people want to lock out the supernatural power of God from their lives, so be it but I am not impressed when they say others should do the same because I have the correct theology. What I say to that is "if your correct theology denies you the opportunity to experience God in word and experience(power), then your theology is not correct.

 

[dragonfly]

Hi marksman,

I hear your cry for God to be free to move amongst His people, by His power, in whatever way He chooses. In principle, I agree with that, and my experience of housechurch where it was the norm, is completely different from churches where one does not feel free to raise even one arm in worship. I don't blame the congregation for that, but the leadership they have chosen or accepted, who outworks its own unbelief on the flock.

 

[teamventure]

What red herring?


Judging by this comment, you are keen to read into scripture what you want to see. Please read them again and you will see not everyone said they fell forward on their faces. One said they fell to the ground-didn't say how so you can only surmise, and one said they experienced ecstasy.

What ever that was, in your book that means they must have fell on their faces decently and in order. Have you fell on your face decently and in order lately? If not why not? After all, it is backed up by scripture so it must be OK to do that.



I think you are mixing up two different spiritual experiences. One deals with the operation of the gifts of the Spirit which are clearly enunciated in scripture but despite this, there are churches which won't have a bar of them.

Then their is the experience of the Holy Spirit falling on people or a congregation, not with the purpose to activate his gifts, but to bring the presence of God into their lives in a supernatural way.

I have experienced both on many occasions, so I am aware there is a difference. Usually when the second takes place one is struck down by the power and holiness of God which one is unable to resist.

When this happens, the transaction is between God and the individual and it affects people in different ways, depending on where they are at in the Lord. I have seen people laugh, cry, groan and just "faint" and lie on the floor as a result. The way that they fell, backwards, forwards, sideways or upwards is of no consequence. What is important is what they experience as a result.

I have read so many testimonies of people that have been to Toronto that said they came alive as a result of their visit so I go by the fruit, not by the spiritually correct theology of people who quite frankly do not know what they are talking about.

If people want to lock out the supernatural power of God from their lives, so be it but I am not impressed when they say others should do the same because I have the correct theology. What I say to that is "if your correct theology denies you the opportunity to experience God in word and experience(power), then your theology is not correct.

you can only semise that it was on their face since every verse says that except for one.

it's funny you post about discernment when you condone things that are easily discerned as Satans work.
exactly at what point in a service do you discern that it's Satan working manifestations and not God?

 

[marksman]

I hear your cry for God to be free to move amongst His people, by His power, in whatever way He chooses. In principle, I agree with that, and my experience of housechurch where it was the norm, is completely different from churches where one does not feel free to raise even one arm in worship. I don't blame the congregation for that, but the leadership they have chosen or accepted, who outworks its own unbelief on the flock.

Yes, I would agree with that. Some leaders do it out of fear, some to control, some are products of false teachers, and some are controlled by a religious spirit and some are doing the job because of their own rejection so they have to protect themselves all the time so that means nothing out of the ordinary that might disturb their equilibrium and anyone who says otherwise is branded as rebellious.

 

[marksman]

With regard to the other verses you shared about how worship is described in the OT, to some extent it is the liberty of those attending church which is in question, rather than whether it is okay to clap hands, raise arms, shout praises and so on. My background is in house-churches which attempted to be compliant with scriptural exhortations, so I have seen everything you picked out, apart from the trumpet - although I have seen that in a Presbyterian church on a special occasion. I attended a conference once, which had a three-piece 'band' in one of the venues, and the percussionist had an amazing array of options which he played with great spiritual sensitivity. Not once did his contribution inhibit or interfere with true worship in the Spirit. I don't even remember what the other instruments were, because all three were entirely spiritual in their contributions

.
There is definitely some truth in that. I read about a church which had the full compliment of modern day musical instruments. At some stage they felt God was saying to them that they should abandon that way of doing things and go back to just acoustic guitar.

The followed their leading and as they say the rest is history.

Another church ( which I attended) got rid of the modern thing and used the services of a professional pianist who was a member of the congregation and a man with an electronic piano accordion. He could make it talk as he could make it sound like a trumpet, drums, clarinet, saxophone, violin and so on.

We would be away with the clouds (so to speak) and this vibrant and inspiring trumpet started playing. Good experience for knocking down walls.

 

[dragonfly]

Another church ( which I attended) got rid of the modern thing and used the services of a professional pianist who was a member of the congregation and a man with an electronic piano accordion. He could make it talk as he could make it sound like a trumpet, drums, clarinet, saxophone, violin and so on.

In the house churches I attended, the praise was expected to come from the congregation. Either a person would ask for a named song or hymn number so it could be introduced in the correct key by a pianist, or, someone would start singing, and others would join in. (If it was clear that some people didn't recognise the song or hymn, then an elder (usually) would announce the number in one of the books we used. Meanwhile, a pianist would step quietly to the piano (if not already seated there) and would pick up the exact key (if it was singable in that key), or drag the tune up or down at an appropriate juncture.) It was up to the congregation to keep singing, or start a verse again after the thing had been sung once or twice, until it was clear we were now done with it. Some tunes lead naturally to others, and some old hymns have alternative words which have been put them, or, alternative tunes, so it could be quite a wonderful time according to the Spirit's leading. A great deal of what we sung was personal, ('I' rather than 'we') and some choruses were ancient, or, scripture set to a tune. The best way to describe this phenomenon is Psalm 22:22 which is quoted again in Hebrews 2:11 For both he that sanctifies and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren, 12 Saying, I will declare thy name unto my brethren, in the midst of the church will I sing praise unto thee.

The only time I heard this mentioned in a sermon, the preacher asked, 'Can you hear Jesus in the midst of the church leading the singing?' That is really the acid test of whether what is being brought forth from those gathered, meets the scriptural definition of what God is looking for.

There are quite a few verses in psalms about this, but many modern Christians have no experience whatever - and have not been equipped by their 'pastors' or 'worship leaders' with the words of appropriate spiritual songs, or confidence to know what the Spirit would bring through them to the body. Neither are individuals free to sing in the Spirit, should the Spirit give them a new song during a church meeting. I realise this is often a corporate event - the whole church moves into singing in the Spirit. All this said, it is a great discipline for naturally talented people to sing only what the Spirit is bringing to the body at that moment, waiting on the Lord prayerfully while resisting the temptation to sing in the flesh.

 

[tim_from_pa]

Serious Question: Is barking like a dog, making jungle animal or farm animal noises a manifestation of the Holy Spirit?

Yes, absolutely. The Holy Spirit can make people...... um wait. No. My faulty memory. That was the nightclub hypnotist that I remember doing that.

No. Not at all. The Holy spirit would not do what a nightclub hypnotist would do. :lol:

 

[marksman]

The only time I heard this mentioned in a sermon, the preacher asked, 'Can you hear Jesus in the midst of the church leading the singing?' That is really the acid test of whether what is being brought forth from those gathered, meets the scriptural definition of what God is looking for.

That is so true. I have been in meetings and some singing has been taking place. At some point it seemed as though God started to inhabit the praises of his people and when we got to the end of the song, it was all brought to a halt for the offering.

God, how dare you disrupt our programme!!

There are quite a few verses in psalms about this, but many modern Christians have no experience whatever - and have not been equipped by their 'pastors' or 'worship leaders' with the words of appropriate spiritual songs, or confidence to know what the Spirit would bring through them to the body. Neither are individuals free to sing in the Spirit, should the Spirit give them a new song during a church meeting. I realise this is often a corporate event - the whole church moves into singing in the Spirit. All this said, it is a great discipline for naturally talented people to singonly what the Spirit is bringing to the body at that moment, waiting on the Lord prayerfully while resisting the temptation to sing in the flesh.

Yes and so sad. it baffles me how churches are quick to condemn what is not of the spirit in their eyes and ignore what is of the Spirit in scripture. I for one do not know how they justify the stultifying Sunday morning meeting that never changes from one year to the next from Scripture.

They have turned a faith in God into a faith in man to do the right thing. The spontaneity and leading of the Spirit never gets a look in. As it is only the Holy Spirit that can change us people leave the same as they came in because Spirit fed food was none existent. All we get to hear is what one man thinks.

No. Not at all. The Holy spirit would not do what a nightclub hypnotist would do.

But a night club hypnotist might do what God did the same as Pharaoh's sorcerers did what Moses did. Judging by what you said, Moses stuff was quackery.

 

[Axehead]

In our house church, Jesus is the invisible conductor of the symphony. Everything is done decently and in order as each person focuses on Jesus, the Lord will impress someone to pray, others to start a song, another to read a scripture, pray or share a word/teaching or dream from the Lord. Don't often get dreams but a brother shared a dream he had from the Lord last week and it really spoke to some people. Just like a skilled Orchestra conductor can point to different members of the Orchestra to "play" their instrument and as a whole, the symphony makes wonderful music, Jesus in our midst can run a meeting bringing edification to all. We don't stop singing and worshipping the Lord until we feel a release to do something else. We have complete freedom and no one man is running the "show" with 3 songs and offering and a sermon. It is a very good atmosphere to help people be real, and know that they are a vital part of the gathering of the saints. Our get togethers are only as good as each person's fellowship with the Lord. No entertainment is needed, no manipulation is wanted. Everyone can keep their money. We are in close enough relationship with each other (as a family should be) that we know how each one is doing.