Manifestations

[Justin Mangonel]

Dear A,

Brother...that is some unwise talk. I am happy for your success and prosperity. I am glad that you have won souls to Christ. However, please don't compare yourself to other churches and think you are better than them because of those things. I can tell you are a good man of God and I realize you have a great deal of maturity in Him. However, we should beware to think we are better than others because of what we have achieved. .

Well...maybe the are chickens...but they are God's chickens.

 

[Rex]

Dear A,

Brother...that is some unwise talk. I am happy for your success and prosperity. I am glad that you have won souls to Christ. However, please don't compare yourself to other churches and think you are better than them because of those things. I can tell you are a good man of God and I realize you have a great deal of maturity in Him. However, we should beware to think we are better than others because of what we have achieved. .

Well...maybe the are chickens...but they are God's chickens.

I could easily fill both hands with the post you make on this forum doing just that.
You lever bad teaching to support your better tabernacle theology.

In a nut shell you believe it better for everyone to close their bible and listen to your ramblings.
The latter bold above is something you certainly don't practice; you exult yourself. at least some of us choose to exult the word and not our own puffed upped image of yourselves. But you'll have nothing to do with sound doctrine.

 

[Arnie Manitoba]

Dear A,

I will not argue with you that UPC penticostals have been caught up in pride. I think it is a function of legalism. But really, especially if you are a bit more aware than some, we should just let people experience God and act out in whatever way they feel like. There are some that will need correction but in the main it is just good that they are trying to yeild to God.

I know you dont mean it that way justin .... but all the other religions in the world say they are just experiencing god in whatever way they feel like.

Where does one draw the line ...... I say we should use the christian bible as the best guide

I am unable to find one place in the bible where ..... out of control laughter .... convulsing bodies ..... barking ..... raising huge revenues .... is shown to be the christian standard.

I think both sides of the laugh and fire movement have a lot of uncertainties .... that alone gives me great caution

It would not bother me one bit if it turns out to actually be from god.

But it would be a tragedy if it is not. Remember .... they claim to fly under the christian banner .... if not for that I could care less ..... same as I could care less about the hindu who crawls around his temple with rats and milk and rat urine and feces .... simply because he thinks some of the rats are a reincarnated grandmother or something

I have seen those things too. .... and the hindu also says it is "very spiritual" ..... and he "feels good" afterward.

Are you proud of your Tabernacle movement J.M. ..... ?

Does it make you "feel good"

Can you give consistent NT evidence that it should be the christian model ?

Dear A,

Brother...that is some unwise talk. I am happy for your success and prosperity. I am glad that you have won souls to Christ. However, please don't compare yourself to other churches and think you are better than them because of those things. I can tell you are a good man of God and I realize you have a great deal of maturity in Him. However, we should beware to think we are better than others because of what we have achieved. .

Well...maybe the are chickens...but they are God's chickens.

I have never thought I was better than anyone .... never will .....

I am not prosperous and sucessful ... I am a poor sinner under christ .... our congregation scrimped and saved and planned for over 6 years and have over half the cash already for the church expansion .... Total cost will be 3 million

The laughter movement in toronto takes in 6-7 million a year and they just rent a cheap building at an airport where people can laugh and bark

And that is the topic we are discussing ....... are these movements really the holy spirit or are they something else.

It causes me no harm if a secular hypnotist has a room full of people laughting and barking.

but if someone tries to tell me it is a movement of god I am reluctant to agree.

 

[Justin Mangonel]

Dear A,

Actually, I believe the spiritual fulfillment of the Feast of Tabernacles will be the finishing work of the body of Christ in this age. I didn't start it but hope to be a part of it.

If you have ever watched the Matrix you may remember the scene were you young boy tells Neo "Do not try and bend the spoon. That's impossible. Instead... only try to realize the truth. What truth? There is no spoon." The amazing truth to your question "where do we draw the line." is that there is no line in the classical biblical sense. The only line that matters is the line that the Holy Spirit draws for the individual at the time that the individual needs that line. Ultimately, this is where it is all going to end up even though I will admit that hardly no one is there yet.

You do not need to have chapter and verse for manifestations, you only need to know the voice of your Father. If you do feel in your spirit that God is doing something good within the people that are doing strange things then accept it. If you can see the fingerprints of your Father on these things then praise God for it. Do you believe that the "greater works" than Jesus did are going to have chapter and verse also? How will they be greater? Just more of the same or will they be something new and wonderful that God does through His saints?

Walking by faith is uncertainty. You do not know from day to day what will happen or how God will lead you to deal with it. All you know for certain is that you trust the voice of your Father. People cry "we have the word of God!" No we don't. While we have the oracles of God we live by the doctrine we have derived from those scriptures which is not the same thing. We live by differing approximations of the truth and call it scripture. This is where all the problems start because we have so firmly associated our doctrine with the absolute truth of the word of God that when it does not line up with what God is doing we cling to it rather than accepting Him. It is called legalism and dogma and it is an idol that every church has firmly placed front and center in their doctrinal statements for all the world to see. You either worship it or you leave the church.

I have given quite of bit of evidence that Tabernacles is the next and perhaps even the final big thing in this church age. However it is an even a bigger shift from what we now accept than the shift that occurred when Pentecost was reintroduced to the church in 1901. Therefore, though it is here already, most people cannot see it or even wrap their minds around it. What most do not understand is that the first century church experienced the spiritual fulfillment of all three feasts...they were Tabernacle Christians. This is why some of the stuff the apostles wrote does not make sense to us...becasue we have only entered into, at most, the spiritual fulfillment of two feasts. Just as many Baptists cannot grasp some of the scriptures that relate to speaking in other tongues so to spirit filled people have a difficult time grasping some of the things I am saying about Divine Love. All the scriptures are there but just like those who have not spoken in other tongues they lack the experience to bring them into focus.

The first step in the process of bringing people into the Tabernacle experience is to let them know it is available to them. It is a good gift that our Father wishes to give to us and is available to all who ask. Concurrent with that the theology of Tabernacles needs to be worked out so that people can begin to wrap their minds and hearts around the concepts that bring clarity to the scriptures that concern it. Almost every place that the apostles are speaking about love they are speaking about the spiritual experience of Divine Love. This makes sense because, try as we might, we cannot rise to the level of love that they speak about...and the reason we can't is that it is an experience that is given from God above and not something we can do of ourselves.

These movements are mixtures...I will grant you that. However, I think a fallacy is committed when we think that somehow they are intended to be pure in the first place. I don't think any move of God has been or ever will be pure but that does not matter. Those who wish to know God have opportunity to know Him. Those who wish to use it as a occasion to the flesh have ample opportunity to do so too. After all, it is about the individual and God is it not? We will not be judged as a group but as individuals. We, as ministers, can guide and warn but ultimately we have to believe that God can take care of our people and that they must stand or fall on their own account before God.

Blessings,

Justin

 

[Arnie Manitoba]

J.M

I have never seen the movie "The MATRIX"
I am not familiar with The Feast of Tabernacles
I have not been directed toward The Feast of Tabernacles in the New Testament covenant
If God employs The Feast of Tabernacles during the end of this age it would be for Israel and for The Jew
I am not Isreali and I am not a Jewish
Neither are the rest of us here on this forum

I do not feel that walking by faith is uncertainty
My faith is a certainty of something I cannot see , feel , touch , or prove
Faith is a trust that Jesus and God will do what they promised if I trust them with my future
To require proof and manifistations is the opposite of faith
For that reason if a room full of people laugh and bark it does not add to my faith

You still have not described to me how The Feast of Tabernacles would benefit me
Nor how it is implemented in the gentile Christian

Thanks
A.M

 

[Justin Mangonel]

Dear A,

You know, all we can do is present the truth and leave it at that.

Blessings,

Justin

 

[Rex]

Dear A,

You know, all we can do is present the truth and leave it at that.

Blessings,

Justin

"Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;" II Corinthians 10:5

 

[Justin Mangonel]

Dear All,

Remember: we walk by faith not by lines.

 

[Raeneske]

Dear All,

Remember: we walk by faith not by lines.

Your faith is to be built upon lines. Actually, line upon line, precept upon precept, here a little, and there a little.

 

[Arnie Manitoba]

Dear A,

You know, all we can do is present the truth and leave it at that.

Blessings,

Justin

.
The truth ????? Where ????? I am still waiting to hear it from you please.

(I am talking about your concept of The Feast of Tabernacles as it applies to modern day gentile Christians)

If you have already explained it somewhere on this forum .... maybe I missed it ..... can you give me the thread link

thanks

 

[Rex]

.
The truth ????? Where ????? I am still waiting to hear it from you please.

(I am talking about your concept of The Feast of Tabernacles as it applies to modern day gentile Christians)

If you have already explained it somewhere on this forum .... maybe I missed it ..... can you give me the thread link

thanks

IMO he already has. What I know about new age type spiritualism and similar teachings is they all contain the same spiritual launching point, and that is the putting off of your preconceived notions, an opening yourself up to whatever happens to be waiting to come in. With that in mind read this quote below, it's the same teaching. The only difference is he attempts to equate it with the HS, new age with a christian shingle above the door.

Dear A,

Actually, I believe the spiritual fulfillment of the Feast of Tabernacles will be the finishing work of the body of Christ in this age. I didn't start it but hope to be a part of it.

If you have ever watched the Matrix you may remember the scene were you young boy tells Neo "Do not try and bend the spoon. That's impossible. Instead... only try to realize the truth. What truth? There is no spoon." The amazing truth to your question "where do we draw the line." is that there is no line in the classical biblical sense. The only line that matters is the line that the Holy Spirit draws for the individual at the time that the individual needs that line. Ultimately, this is where it is all going to end up even though I will admit that hardly no one is there yet.

 

[IanLC]

For you to believe that sincere and genuine Christians would open themselves up to new age or other false evil spirits is very disturbing. Jesus proclaimed that ""Which of you, if his son asks for bread, will give him a stone?Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a snake?f you, then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give good gifts to those who ask him!" (Matthew 7:9-11). No one told me or asked me to receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit I desired it because Jesus drew me to it. I wanted a deeper desire for Him, a closer walk and deeper prayer life and wanted to live holy which can only be done through the Holy Spirit. I asked to receive the baptism of the Holy Ghost in Jesus' name, I tarryed on my knees for it calling on the name of Jesus, I purged and went into deep and intense prayer and Jesus evidenced himself and filled me with the Holy Ghost (Acts 2:4, Acts 10:44, Acts 19:1-6, Ephesians 5:18). Regardless if you believe or not I know that my Heavenly Father filled me with the Holy Ghost and that my savior Jesus Christ baptized me with the Holy Ghost and fire (Matthew 3:11, Acts 1:5) and evidenced that for me by speaking in tongues as the Spirit gives utterance (Acts 2:4). From me receiving the baptism of the Holy Ghost my walk with Jesus has grown closer, my prayer life has gotten deeper and stronger and the Holy Spirit is leading me into all truth through the word of God, and sanctifying me. Others that I have seen receive the baptism of the Holy Ghost lives has been changed and are living on fire for God. That is my experience with the Holy Ghost and it comes from Jesus for He promised it (Acts 2:38,39). Now I have never barked like a dog or laughed in the Spirit or made any animal noises but that is just me and I have not seen anyone else do that. Can you not see that the baptism of the Holy Ghost has lead people closer in their personal walk to Jesus instead of farther away? The enemy would not want that for it would be him fighting against himself.
"And afterward, I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your old men will dream dreams, your young men will see visions." (Joel 2:28)
"The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off--for all whom the Lord our God will call." (Acts 2:39)
"For I will pour water on the thirsty land, and streams on the dry ground; I will pour out my Spirit on your offspring, and my blessing on your descendants."(Isaiah 44:3)

 

[Arnie Manitoba]

Justin Mangonel, on 06 Jan 2013 - 17:51, said:

Dear A,

Actually, I believe the spiritual fulfillment of the Feast of Tabernacles will be the finishing work of the body of Christ in this age. I didn't start it but hope to be a part of it.

Justin

I am still confused about the feast of tabernacles .... or at least "the fulfillment" part of it.

I am not trying to disagree with you .... I simply "dont get it"

If you could describe it using your own words in a sentence or two I would find it very helpful

Thanks

 

[Justin Mangonel]

Dear A,

I believe that the three main feasts of Israel...Passover, Pentecost, and Tabernacles all have a spiritual fulfillment with an attendant spiritual experience in the gentile church age. We are living in the church age...i.e. the time when the gentiles were grafted into the natural olive tree in place of the children of Israel who were cut off for a season.

On the feast of Passover Jesus Christ was crucified as the lamb of God. In the church age Passover equates with salvation. Many people have a salvation experience. They feel the forgiveness of their sins and a restoration of communion with God.

On the feast of Pentecost God poured out His spirit upon those in the upper room and they spoke in other tongues. Many people have this Pentecostal experience when they yield their most unruly member to the Holy Spirit...their tongue.

On the feast of Tabernacles, which I theorize happened at the gate beautiful when Peter said, "silver and gold have i none..." God began to become one with Peter. This is why if the shadow of Peter passed over someone sick they would be healed. As God walked the Earth in His son Jesus so He was starting to walk the Earth again in the body of Christ. This was the start of the Tabernacles experience and the sign of this experience was Divine Love. This Divine Love experience led to having all things in common. Divine love is also what allowed the early Church to operate is such power and demonstration.

The doctrine of Salvation and its experience was lost to the general church until it was restore by Martin Luther.

The doctrine of the Pentecostal experience and the manifestation of speaking in other tongues was lost to the general church until 1901 when it broke forth again at stones folly in Topeka Kansas.

The doctrine of the Tabernacle experience and the experience of Divine Love has never yet been restored to the general church. This is what I am writing about.

I hope that helps.

Blessings,

Justin

 

[Arnie Manitoba]

JM
thanks for explaining it
AM

 

[veteran]

IMO he already has. What I know about new age type spiritualism and similar teachings is they all contain the same spiritual launching point, and that is the putting off of your preconceived notions, an opening yourself up to whatever happens to be waiting to come in. With that in mind read this quote below, it's the same teaching. The only difference is he attempts to equate it with the HS, new age with a christian shingle above the door.

Justin Mangonel, on 06 Jan 2013 - 17:51, said:

Dear A,

Actually, I believe the spiritual fulfillment of the Feast of Tabernacles will be the finishing work of the body of Christ in this age. I didn't start it but hope to be a part of it.

If you have ever watched the Matrix you may remember the scene were you young boy tells Neo "Do not try and bend the spoon. That's impossible. Instead... only try to realize the truth. What truth? There is no spoon." The amazing truth to your question "where do we draw the line." is that there is no line in the classical biblical sense. The only line that matters is the line that the Holy Spirit draws for the individual at the time that the individual needs that line. Ultimately, this is where it is all going to end up even though I will admit that hardly no one is there yet.

Justin is not the only one on this forum pushing that kind of stuff though, which ought to cause brethren here greater concern. With eastern meditation, the method most stressed is the letting go of the mind and all thoughts, and to allow a connection of the inner man with the oneness of the universe, becoming like a radio RECEIVER for whatever comes into the mind.

Those in Christ Jesus are not to practice such things, but remain sober, and watching. We're supposed to keep self-control over our mind and body, not opening up ourselves to familiar spirits. Yet that is exactly what the practice of 'mysticism' teaches one to do, to open up oneself to the spirit realm and allow whatever to come in. That is always going to be the danger of those who 'seek' out some direct spiritual experience on their own instead of letting our Heavenly Father and His Son make that call.


There are many ways God reveals Himself to His without the need of wild manifestations.

After I had got down to disciplined Bible study in all of God's Word, I dropped into a certain store on the way to work one day. I'd never been in that store before. I waited in line to check out. When I got up front, a younger fellow behind the counter looked up at me, and out of nowhere started asking me Bible questions. I moved aside and allowed those behind me to check out. Then I wrote down the relevant Scripture Books and chapters for the guy to study that would answer his questions.

I visited him again at a later date, and asked if he knew me, or knew anyone that might have known me. He said he'd never met me, nor heard of me. Likewise myself with him; I did not know him, nor of him. Then I asked what made him ask me Bible questions, because how would he even know that I'd read The Bible? He said he had prayed to God for answers to his Bible question, and that he knew God had sent me to him. He said that from his heart.

God's people have had many, many such type examples of His working in their lives that cannot be explained away as mere circumstance or coincedence. And they have no need of an outward show of miracles and whatnot. With sick that have recovered in hospitals by believers praying over the patient, the healing had no need of some outward wild manifestion that one had to see with the eyes, for the doctors easily could recognize the result of the healing as the miracle itself.

It is this kind of difference with how our Heavenly Father works through His servants under Christ Jesus today that contrasts outward signs and wonders that can easily be a counterfeit show not from Him.

 

[Justin Mangonel]

Dear V,

Great testimony...I like to see God move like that.

I suppose that you think speaking in other tongues is out of bounds also?

You know...I am not for manifestations for manifestations sake. I am just for not being so adverse to them as many here on this forum seem to be. Sober is one thing but standing against what the Holy Spirit is doing in others is quite a different spirit altogether.

I am for God moving in any way He chooses.

Blessings,

Justin

 

[veteran]

Dear V,

Great testimony...I like to see God move like that.

I suppose that you think speaking in other tongues is out of bounds also?

You know...I am not for manifestations for manifestations sake. I am just for not being so adverse to them as many here on this forum seem to be. Sober is one thing but standing against what the Holy Spirit is doing in others is quite a different spirit altogether.

I am for God moving in any way He chooses.

Blessings,

Justin

Problem is Justin, God has ALREADY SHOWN us HOW He does things per His Holy Writ, to include what we call miracles. And He also showed us examples of false prophets and evil spirits at work. So He is NOT going to do those signs and wonders the false prophets and evil spirits manifestation do, but He WILL use them to TEST His people with, to see if they will listen to HIM or not. He will allow one to be deceived if that's what they want.

 

[Justin Mangonel]

Dear V,

So really, you are saying because God has done something in the past He cannot do something different in the future? Therefore, anything that deviates from His past actions is a test to see if we will be lured away by false teachers and false prophets? Do you even realize what you are saying? Do you even know the God who gives good gifts to His children that ask?

I don't know where this mentality comes from but it is certainly not scriptural. If you purport to follow the example of Jesus then you should not always be expecting God to do something just like He has done before. Jesus gave the Pharisees fits because he did not follow their religious views...to them what He did and said was so different than what they believed they wanted to stone Him. Are you honestly saying that God cannot do anything new?

 

[williemac]

Dear V,

So really, you are saying because God has done something in the past He cannot do something different in the future? Therefore, anything that deviates from His past actions is a test to see if we will be lured away by false teachers and false prophets? Do you even realize what you are saying? Do you even know the God who gives good gifts to His children that ask?

I don't know where this mentality comes from but it is certainly not scriptural. If you purport to follow the example of Jesus then you should not always be expecting God to do something just like He has done before. Jesus gave the Pharisees fits because he did not follow their religious views...to them what He did and said was so different than what they believed they wanted to stone Him. Are you honestly saying that God cannot do anything new?

Hi, Bro. If I were Veteran, I might reply that God can certainly do something new. But I would also add a few thoughts of my own, that for one thing, He has foretold His intentions.

A few more thoughts to whom it may concern:
I will say that if a person is touched by God, this is not new. His reaction to it might well be quite unique, though. So I would advise that we discern the difference between a human response to the supernatural, and that which the bible calls a (supernatural) manifestaion of the Spirit. Is uncontrollable laughter supernatural? No. It can happen to any human. Are involuntary jerkings and dropping s supernatural? No, these things happen to many people for many reasons, not the least of which is by way of hypnotism, the power of suggestion. If we want to call those things manifestations, that is the choice of the individual. But in scripture, there is a category that we can find that is called a manifestation of the Spirit. This is described by Paul. These are things the Spirit is doing supernaturally. Let us not confuse what God is doing with what man is doing in response.
I will say that we need to recognize that the spirit of the prophet is subject to the prophet. If something is happening in or with a person that seems to be beyond or outside of his control or will, then I say we need to correct the cause. The cause is the notion that God is a control freak. He leads, He guides, He courts, He instructs, He commands, He teaches, He rebukes, He chastens, He exhorts, He comforts, He heals....etc, etc. BUT He is not a puppet master and we are not robots. He does not control anyone into involuntary actions.

He did warn us that there would be lying signs and wonders. Control is not from God. It is sorcery. That word comes from the Greek "Pharma". the same word that we use in the world of drugs. There are mind altering drugs in the world that take over the minds of those who use them. God will not take over a person's mind or body. He will fill us with His presence, the fruit of which includes SELF control. Those who are taught to give over the control of their minds or bodies, are being misled. We are NEVER to empty our minds to allow anything in that wants to come in. This opens the door to the world of sorcery. The power of suggestion is very compelling and can result in many temporary "manifestations", as it were. I have seen both God at work and the power of suggestion at work. It is not wise or advised that we judge hastely according to appearances. But hey, if things are happening as a result of people giving over control of themselves, the red flags should be flying.