Mary as New Eve

[GracePeace]

It’s a holistic view.

I don't really want to get into all of these things--it's unnecessary. The direction the discussion was going in was just fine as far as I was concerned--now there will be mountains of posts no one will read through and they won't see the Catholics' views being debunked.

Where does "holistic" end? Do we need to go all the way back to Genesis, and start with Creation? I want to get to the point--the points which I raised and which I think are salient.

 

[Waiting on him]

I don't really want to get into all of these things--it's unnecessary. The direction the discussion was going in was just fine as far as I was concerned--now there will be mountains of posts no one will read through and they won't see the Catholics' views being debunked.

Where does "holistic" end? Do we need to go all the way back to Genesis, and start with Creation? I want to get to the point--the points which I raised and which I think are salient.

Ok then, carry on.

 

[Waiting on him]

The topic is "Mary is not New Eve".

No she’s not.

 

[Waiting on him]

Though there was an epistle written specifically to her.

 

[Waiting on him]

So we should honor her as John did. Have a good night. I’ll be praying for your immediate medical condition.

 

[GracePeace]

No she’s not.

The Catholic, @James the Rabbit, had a strong objection--unlike the emptiness being spouted by the Roman Catholic Church "authority" (a Jesuit?) @BreadOfLife--and I didn't have the answer, but it was provided to me by God while I wasn't even thinking about it! LOL

 

[GracePeace]

So we should honor her as John did. Have a good night. I’ll be praying for your immediate medical condition.

Thanks. Just as a request, do you suppose you might be able to be mindful of expressing as much as you can in a post (so as to avoid multiple one-sentence posts)? Thanks!

 

[BreadOfLife]

OK You're about to get put on block.

You can always run to the Mods like you did with me - repeatedly.

 

[GracePeace]

You can always run to the Mods like you did with me - repeatedly.

Stop being lawless and the mods won't be contacted.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Stop being lawless and the mods won't be contacted.

Learn to understand the Scriptures so you don't HAVE to run to the Mods when an educated Catholic puts you in your place.

 

[GracePeace]

Learn to understand the Scriptures so you don't HAVE to run to the Mods when an educated Catholic puts you in your place.

You don't know Scripture--every honest reader (honest like @James the Rabbit, a Catholic who admitted the Scriptures taught that the Church is New Eve like was pointed out) can see that.

 

[BreadOfLife]

I wonder what will happen on the day he realizes that Protestants are merely protesting Catholics?

Spontaneous combustion, maybe?

 

[GracePeace]

Spontaneous combustion, maybe?

Submit to Scripture.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Submit to Scripture.

Prov. 26:4-5
Answer not a fool according to his folly, lest you be like him yourself.
Answer a fool according to his folly, lest he be wise in his own eyes.

Scripture says I'm done here . . .

 

[GracePeace]

Prov. 26:4-5
Answer not a fool according to his folly, lest you be like him yourself.
Answer a fool according to his folly, lest he be wise in his own eyes.

Scripture says I'm done here . . .

Thanks for coming here to give me a chance to publicly dismantle the Catholic position. See ya!

 

[GracePeace]

Hope you guys are enriched by the debate. I will post some here, and you can follow up if you find it of interest.

is Christ the supreme authority?

1. The Church is subordinate to the Word of God, and the Word of God is subordinate to God the Father.
2. The fact that the Church is "the pillar and ground of the truth" stems from its having issued from Christ, Who is the Truth--it is just another proof that she, and not Mary, is the New Eve.

the Bible says

Acts 2:42 doctrine of the apostles not Bible

1. 1 Timothy 3:15
   But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.

Not the bible

It’s not the Catholic Church who decided that Mary was the New Eve – it was GOD – and He conveyed it through His Word.

In John’s Gospel, Jesus never refers to his mother as “mother” (John 2:4, 19:26). Whenever he addresses his mother, he calls her “Woman”. Is this a sign if “disrespect” as some of you anti-Catholics would charge? NO.

Jesus was a PERFECT Jew who lived the Law PERFECTLY. He honored His mother, according to the Commandment (Exod. 20:12). This correlates directly to the Woman in Gen. 3:15 and in Rev. 12.

Jesus defeats death on Calvary and fulfills the prophecy in Gen. 3:15 about the offspring of the Woman. Mary is present at the foot of the cross while this is happening - and what does Jesus call her in John 19:26? He calls her “WOMAN”, because the prophecy about the head of the serpent being crushed in Genesis is taking place right there on Calvary.

Mary is the New Eve because GOD says so - and He doesn't err . . ..

Sorry I reject your nonsensical tradition.

WRONG.

The Bible tells us that tells us that the Church is the FULLNESS of Christ (Eph. 1:22-23) - and tells us that He IS the Church (Acts 9:45).
Ergo, Jesus cannot be BOTH the New Adam and the New Eve.

Game.
Set.
MATCH.

Hey - you're not rejecting MY "Tradition".
You're rejecting the Word of Almighty GOD.

Good luck with that . . .

Actually, "the two shall become one flesh", and "no one hates his own flesh"--thus anyone who persecutes Christ's bride persecutes Christ. Read Ephesians 5.

God's Word? You mean this Word which you reject?

Adam was the first man of the whole human race.
Adam was given a bride made from his own body--her name was Eve.

Christ is the fulfillment of the Adam type--head of a new race Romans 5:14.
Christ is like another Adam, but spiritual 1 Corinthians 15:45.
Christ is given a bride, which is His own body Ephesians 5:21-33--she must be His "Eve".

Paul explicitly teaches the Church corresponds to Eve 2 Corinthians 11:3.

No answers from your side.

You can't disprove Christ is New Adam.
You can't disprove the Church is New Eve.
...

I ALREADY did . . .

You disproved that Christ was New Adam?

Nope - not at ALL.
Never made that claim.

My point is that YOU expect all NT Fulfillments to be an exact replica of their OT Type.
This doesn't happen ANYWHERE in Scripture. At best - it is usually figurative and symbolic fulfillment.
Adam and Jesus
The Flood and the Waters of Baptism
Melkisedek and Jesus
Moses and Jesus
The Ark and Mary
Eliakim and Peter

NONE of these are "exact" comparisons - and therein lies your confusion.

Paul didn't think so--he said the Church corresponded to Eve.
Oops!

 

[GracePeace]

READ my last post #68, where I explained to you about Type and Fulfillment.
Then - rethink your question.

The arguments from my side is solid--the proof is you flee in fear rather than face them.

Why is the fact John obtained Mary something outstanding or significant to you? It's just Christ's teaching in action.

Matthew 19:29
And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or children or lands, for my name’s sake, will receive a hundredfold and will inherit eternal life.

John followed Christ, and so obtained mothers.

THANK YOU.

This is a PERFECT example of your Scriptural confusion - and the reason why I said that the Bible is NOT the "Wild West".
Matt. 19:29 has absolutely NOTHING to do with John's duty as Mary's caretaker, in context.

John was to take care of her for the REST of her life (John 19:17).
If he had left her - he would have violated a promise to God.

Your understanding of Scripture is extremely limited - to say the least . . .

Ohh... when it's convenient for you, "the Bible is very ordered and precise"... but when it's inconvenient, "no, it's never exact!"

What a sad man--a dying system.

Anyway, back to the topic...

You objected to the "sexual" aspect of the Adam-Eve/Christ-Church reality.

Who are Christ's "offspring"?

Isaiah 53
10Yet it was the LORD’s will to crush Him
and to cause Him to suffer;
and when His soul is made a guilt offering,g
He will see His offspring, He will prolong His days,
and the good pleasure of the LORD will prosper in His hand.

Don't tell me you're a closet devotee of "The DaVinci Code".
LOL!

The entirety of Scripture is on my side.
Sorry your tradition is bankrupt and indefensible!
Time to move on!
Maybe you should take a hint from the Orthodox--they have married "priests".
You're welcome.

And once again, I remind you of the fact that OT Type and NT Fulfillment are never identical situations. I even gave you several examples back in post #68 to illustrate this fact.
Some are closer than others - bot NONE is exact.

By the reckless and immature tone of your posts - my guess is that you're quite young. Do yourself a favor and STUDY the Scriptures before making such ignorant claims.
Give yourself some time to grow in the Word - and wisdom will follow . . ..

You don't know the Scriptures, as I have proven, so you have no place to instruct anyone to "study" where this issue is concerned--and your Church's infallibility is already disproven, so I'm not moved by your pontifications.

Again :

"...as... Eve... [so] you..." : If there were no other evidence, you might have been able to deceive me on this; the wealth of evidence for my position protects me from the blindness you want to awaken me to.

Eve, Adams' bride, was made of Adam's own body Genesis 2:23.
Christ is the New Adam Romans 5:14, 1 Corinthians 15:45.
The Church, Christ's bride, is Christ's own body Ephesians 5:23.
The Church is the New Eve of the New Adam--Mary is not.

Paul taught the Church corresponds to Eve 2 Corinthians 11:3.

Who are Christ's "offspring" Isaiah 53:10--could they be the ones which Gospel workers "give birth" to Galatians 4:19?

The Roman Catholic Church is proven fallible.
Get over it. Most of the world already has.

WRONG - you have it backwards.
The Church isn't made of His Body - His Body is made up from the Church.

That's what Paul was saying in Col. 1:18:
"And he is the HEAD of the BODY, the church. He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in everything he might be preeminent."

As for 2 Cor. 11:3 - I already PROVED to you that this was simply talking about temptation - NOT type and fulfillment.

In Gal. 4:19, Paul is simply using symbolic language. He can't ACTUALLY give birth.

Christ IS the New Adam - but the Church isn't the New Eve.
Mary is - as I have amply shown.

Pardon me, but this is a "distinction without a difference".

Is the Church or is the Church not Christ's bride?

Galatians 4:19 Paul is speaking spiritually not merely symbolically.

Yes, Christ is New Adam--and Christ's bride is the New Eve.

CONTEXT, son.
You know nothing about Biblical CONTEXT.

As I stated earlier - your reckless and immature posts have done nothing but serve to expose your Scriptural ignorance.
It's like a bratty kid in the schoolyard - daring me to know the chip off his shoulder.

Actually, by God's grace, Roman Catholicism's claim to infallibility is debunked in this thread--if I'm "bratty" "ignorant", etc, then what does that say for your system that it was brought down by such a "nothing" 1 Corinthians 1:26-29 like me?

1 Corinthians 1
26For consider your calling, brothers: not many of you were wise according to worldly standards,c not many were powerful, not many were of noble birth. 27But God chose what is foolish in the world to shame the wise; God chose what is weak in the world to shame the strong; 28God chose what is low and despised in the world, even things that are not, to bring to nothing things that are, 29so that no human beingd might boast in the presence of God

It's symbolic.
Paul does NOT have a uterus and cannot give birth:
Gal 4:19
my little children, for whom I am again in the anguish of CHILDBIRTH until Christ is formed in you!

You are humiliating yourself . . .

Who are Christ's "offspring" Isaiah 53:10?

 

[GracePeace]

Notice @theefaith, because he had no substantive answers, wanted to sidestep the Scriptural arguments I raised, and attempted to appeal to ostensible "Church authority" ("apostles")... forgetting that Christ, when He was on earth, HIMSELF had to submit to Scripture. This is the blasphemy of the church which nonsensically unthinkingly uncritically embraces "tradition" above God (Scripture). They are higher than Christ in their minds--they don't need to submit to Scripture.

 

[GracePeace]

Mary was "under Law" Galatians 4:4, alive during an epoch prior to the arrival of "the faith" Galatians 3:23, so she wasn't a "child of God" by having been "baptized into Christ" Galatians 3:26 :
1. She couldn't qualify as "New Eve", in some lesser way, based on having been part of a Church that hadn't at the time even existed.
2. She may have been "just" but she was explicitly "imperfect" Hebrews 11:40, Hebrews 12:23--she was no "New Eve", since Eve was created perfect, only the Church qualified as "perfect" Hebrews 10:14, Hebrews 12:23.

 

[GracePeace]

WRONG - you have it backwards.
The Church isn't made of His Body - His Body is made up from the Church.

That's what Paul was saying in Col. 1:18:
"And he is the HEAD of the BODY, the church. He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in everything he might be preeminent."

So... "teacher"... is the husband literally the wife's "head"? LOL

Ephesians 5
22Wives, submit to your own husbands, as to the Lord. 23For the husband is the head of the wife even as Christ is the head of the church, his body, and is himself its Savior. 24Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit in everything to their husbands...

Oops! As already noted (I think you may've missed it), Christ as "head" means "Christ is the authority." The husband is the authority of his wife, and the wife is the "body" of the husband because "the two shall become one flesh". That's why Paul says, when encouraging husbands on how they should behave toward their wives, "no one ever hated their own flesh".

As for 2 Cor. 11:3 - I already PROVED to you that this was simply talking about temptation - NOT type and fulfillment.

Again, you guys wish you had a Scripture even approaching this explicitness concerning your empty bankrupt speculations about Mary as New Eve--if you had it, you'd be trumpeting it LOL Well, as it is, it's on my side, and I will state the obvious from Scripture! (Ain't it odd how Scriptures just keep stacking up on my side? But I know you said you rejected precision... when it helps my side, that is... so I'll move on.)

In Gal. 4:19, Paul is simply using symbolic language. He can't ACTUALLY give birth.

Close... but no cigar : spiritual language, not symbolic.

Christ IS the New Adam - but the Church isn't the New Eve.
Mary is - as I have amply shown.

Christ is the New Adam.
Adam's own body was fashioned into his bride.
Christ's own body is fashioned into His bride.
Therefore the Church is called "the body of Christ".

Before you say "I despise that precision!", I don't have to embrace perfect fulfillment of types and antitypes to merely recognize an anti-type in Scripture. If it's there, it's there--I'm not denying something (like you are) that Scripture is literally shouting at me as a voice in the wilderness.