Mary, Queen of Heaven

[Renniks]

Nothing to answer.
You told a lie about the pope changing church teaching, claiming he endorsed same sex marriage.
I exposed your lie.
That's all we need to know.

I asked a whole bunch of questions you didn't answer. I'm seriously curious how you justify different opinions by different popes.
I asked:
"And of course, there have been all kinds of corrupt popes, but the Catholic doctrine claims they all speak for God. How can that make any sense to anyone? It's mindboggling. I know a protestant guy who joined the Catholic church but doesn't agree with the pope. How does that even work?"

 

[Mungo]

I asked a whole bunch of questions you didn't answer. I'm seriously curious how you justify different opinions by different popes.
I asked:
"And of course, there have been all kinds of corrupt popes, but the Catholic doctrine claims they all speak for God. How can that make any sense to anyone? It's mindboggling. I know a protestant guy who joined the Catholic church but doesn't agree with the pope. How does that even work?"

I'll answer your questions if you promise to answer mine.
You said:

So to claim the Catholic Church teachings never change? Paaaleese! They change with every pope. .

What church doctrines were changed by these recent Popes:
a) Pope Benedict XVI
b) Pope John Paul II
c) Pope John Paul I

 

[marks]

Thank you marks. I certainly wish others on here were as kind as you are.

I believe that fulfilling a request from your mother over me is relevant. It has nothing to do with the happenstance of your birth. It has to do with Scripture: Honor your father and your mother, that your days may be long in the land that the Lord your God is giving you.

I would EXPECT you to fulfill your mothers request over mine!! But that's just me....

Respectfully, Mary

In reality, yes, Mom has a special place in our hearts, yes, we are to honor her in a context that's only shared with Dad. We are not millions of individuals, each eeking out our own existence. Rather, we are 'humanity' unfolding. I like the hymn, "We blossom and flourish like leaves on a tree, then whither and perish by nought changeth Thee!" We are in the tree of humanity, and that through our parents, according to the flesh.

But this makes me think of the place:

2 Corinthians 5
15 And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.
16 Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.

When Christ rose, this changed all our relationships. I don't see how the earthly relationship according to the flesh would continue past the resurrection, and, IF I'm reading this verse right, even now our relationships become reordered.

We no longer know anyone after the flesh, and even having known Christ after the flesh, that is, in a humanly way, we don't know Him that way any longer. So as Jesus was gesturing to the group, these are My mother and My brothers and My sisters, isn't that reflected in this passage to the church? That Christ completely transcends human relationships?

That's how I see this. In the same way, marriage will not surpass death. I don't see the physical relationships - my brother for instance - will take a greater significance than the spiritual relationships we will have with all of God's people.

On another note, I seem to remember getting snippy with you once upon a time, and I'm sorry! Things like that are teaching me to be kinder!

Much love!

 

[Renniks]

I'll answer your questions if you promise to answer mine.
You said:

What church doctrines were changed by these recent Popes:
a) Pope Benedict XVI
b) Pope John Paul II
c) Pope John Paul I

You first.

 

[Mungo]

You first.

Do you promise to answer? Looking at your responses to Marymog's posts you seem to have form on not answering questions.

 

[Renniks]

Do you promise to answer? Looking at your responses to Marymog's posts you seem to have form on not answering questions.

I always answer. Whether you get the answer you want is something else.

 

[Mungo]

I always answer. Whether you get the answer you want is something else.

You mean you can't answer so you will give some vague non-answer.

You made statement "So to claim the Catholic Church teachings never change? Paaaleese! They change with every pope." So you must have a least one example for each Pope of how they changed Church doctrine. I'm only asking about the last three popes not hundreds of years back.

 

[BreadOfLife]

I asked a whole bunch of questions you didn't answer. I'm seriously curious how you justify different opinions by different popes.
I asked:
"And of course, there have been all kinds of corrupt popes, but the Catholic doctrine claims they all speak for God. How can that make any sense to anyone? It's mindboggling. I know a protestant guy who joined the Catholic church but doesn't agree with the pope. How does that even work?"

This is easy to answer.

A corrupt Pope doesn't mean that he TEACHES bad doctrine - anymore than a philandering Protestant minister does.
Whatever they are in their personal lives can be polar opposite of what they TEACH.

As for your friend - he can disagree with the Pope in matter of opinion all he wants.
However, if he differs doctrinally - then he is NOT a faithful Catholic.

 

[BreadOfLife]

How old a teaching is is also really not the issue, although many varied beliefs about many topics have always been present in the universal church. So to claim the Catholic Church teachings never change? Paaaleese! They change with every pope. You currently have a pope who is fine with same sex marriage. And he's supposed to speak for God. I think you have it backwards. It's the Protestants who got tired of the churches unbiblical teaching that the apostles would have been horrified at, and brought us back to scripture as a guide instead of one man's whims.

Can you name ONE SINGLE Catholic doctrine that was "changed" by ANY Pope?
As to your bogus claim that Pope Francis is "fine with same sex marriage" - show me the documented proof.

HERE is a quote from him on a same sex "marriage" bill in Argentina:
“In the coming weeks, the Argentine people will face a situation whose outcome can seriously harm the family . . .

“At stake is the identity and survival of the family: father, mother, and children. At stake are the lives of many children who will be discriminated against in advance and deprived of their human development given by a father and a mother and willed by God. At stake is the total rejection of God’s law engraved in our hearts.”

“Let us not be naive: this is not simply a political struggle, but it is an attempt to destroy God’s plan. It is not just a bill (a mere instrument) but a ‘move’ of the father of lies who seeks to confuse and deceive the children of God.”

Soooooo, you think THAT sounds like he's "fine" with same sex marriage??
Your dishonesty is astounding . . .

 

[Renniks]

You made statement "So to claim the Catholic Church teachings never change? Paaaleese! They change with every pope." So you must have a least one example for each Pope of how they changed Church doctrine. I'm only asking about the last three popes not hundreds of years back.

Oh I see the problem. I hear pope francis requested a change to the death penalty doctrine. But whether the Pope can officially change church doctrine wasn't my point. The point is that the Pope undermines church doctrine by his opinions.
Why pretend this doesn't bother Catholics? I know you will always find a way around it, but it doesn't feel honest to those of us who are not Catholic.

"Last month, for example, he guessed aloud that most Catholic marriages are invalid (while some cohabiting couples might, in some way, be married). That issue has been covered. But an earlier intervention failed to get a similar measure of attention. It came during an in-flight press conference, in which the pope's discussion of contraception and the Zika virus lit a blaze of controversy. The Church has held on to the historic (and once universal) Christian condemnation of contraception. Was Francis making exceptions? Might the whole teaching be scrapped? If the pope was wrong, what about papal infallibility?"
Can the Pope Change Catholic Teaching?

 

[Renniks]

However, if he differs doctrinally - then he is NOT a faithful Catholic.

So when the Pope off handedly endorses contraception for example, that is against church doctrine, is it not? If my friend disagees with the Pope, well he is just being a good Catholic.

 

[Renniks]

Can you name ONE SINGLE Catholic doctrine that was "changed" by ANY Pope?
As to your bogus claim that Pope Francis is "fine with same sex marriage" - show me the documented proof.

HERE is a quote from him on a same sex "marriage" bill in Argentina:
“In the coming weeks, the Argentine people will face a situation whose outcome can seriously harm the family . . .

“At stake is the identity and survival of the family: father, mother, and children. At stake are the lives of many children who will be discriminated against in advance and deprived of their human development given by a father and a mother and willed by God. At stake is the total rejection of God’s law engraved in our hearts.”

“Let us not be naive: this is not simply a political struggle, but it is an attempt to destroy God’s plan. It is not just a bill (a mere instrument) but a ‘move’ of the father of lies who seeks to confuse and deceive the children of God.”

Soooooo, you think THAT sounds like he's "fine" with same sex marriage??
Your dishonesty is astounding . . .

You might want to quote his statement about same sex civil unions to provide some balance there.

"Homosexuals have a right to be a part of the family," Pope Francis said in the film at one point. "They’re children of God and have a right to a family. Nobody should be thrown out, or be made miserable because of it."

Francis appeared to go even further when he said “what we have to create is a civil union law. That way they are legally covered. I stood up for that."

Does this not legitimize homosexuality as something people are not as a sin they do?

 

[justbyfaith]

Your dishonesty is astounding . . .

Ah...the comfort of the Holy Ghost...

@BreadOfLife, you do this with everyone, not just me...

 

[Mungo]

Oh I see the problem. I hear pope francis requested a change to the death penalty doctrine. But whether the Pope can officially change church doctrine wasn't my point. The point is that the Pope undermines church doctrine by his opinions.

As I have pointed out before you are very casual with the truth.
You claimed Pope Frances - and EVERY POPE - has changed Church doctrine. Now you claim you didn't actually mean what you said.
Sorry, but that is dishonest.

 

[Mungo]

You might want to quote his statement about same sex civil unions to provide some balance there.

"Homosexuals have a right to be a part of the family," Pope Francis said in the film at one point. "They’re children of God and have a right to a family. Nobody should be thrown out, or be made miserable because of it."

Does this not legitimize homosexuality as something people are not as a sin they do?

If you bothered to read the links I gave you would find out what Pope Francis was actually referring to in this quote. But then are you really interested in the truth?

He said first that: “Homosexuals have a right to be a part of the family. They’re children of God and have a right to a family. Nobody should be thrown out, or be made miserable because of it.”

While the pope did not elaborate on the meaning of those remarks in the video, Pope Francis has spoken before to encourage parents and relatives not to ostracize or shun children who have identified as LGBT. This seems to be the sense in which the pope spoke about the right of people to be a part of the family.

Some have suggested that when Pope Francis spoke about a “right to a family,” the pope was offering a kind of tacit endorsement of adoption by same-sex couples. But the pope has previously spoken against such adoptions, saying that through them children are “deprived of their human development given by a father and a mother and willed by God,” and saying that “every person needs a male father and a female mother that can help them shape their identity.”

So clearly the Pope was not endorsing homosexuality.

 

[BreadOfLife]

So when the Pope off handedly endorses contraception for example, that is against church doctrine, is it not? If my friend disagees with the Pope, well he is just being a good Catholic.

Show me the quote - and the Pope.
You can't because no Pope has EVER taught this.

 

[BreadOfLife]

You might want to quote his statement about same sex civil unions to provide some balance there.

"Homosexuals have a right to be a part of the family," Pope Francis said in the film at one point. "They’re children of God and have a right to a family. Nobody should be thrown out, or be made miserable because of it."

Francis appeared to go even further when he said “what we have to create is a civil union law. That way they are legally covered. I stood up for that."

Does this not legitimize homosexuality as something people are not as a sin they do?

Sooooo, homosexuals DON'T have a right to be loved by their parents?
WHERE does the Bible say that you're supposed to hate and ostracize your child if they are homosexual?

The Pope was talking about families of ORIGIN - not families of procreation.

As for his "support" of a civil union law in Argentina in 2010 - he was talking about it as a legal alternative to "marriage" which he deemed was impossible and contrary to God. When homosexual "marriage" came up for a vote on a Proposition in my state- MANY churches stated that we already had civil union laws that they supported (for lack of a better term) - but were against the idea of gay "marriage" which is impossible in the eyes of God.

I didn't hear ANYBODY condemning those Protestant leaders . . .

 

[Renniks]

As I have pointed out before you are very casual with the truth.
You claimed Pope Frances - and EVERY POPE - has changed Church doctrine. Now you claim you didn't actually mean what you said.
Sorry, but that is dishonest.

No you just misunderstand.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Ah...the comfort of the Holy Ghost...
@BreadOfLife, you do this with everyone, not just me...

It goes to show that YOU don't have a monopoly on lies.

Gee - and I thought you put me one "ignore".
Your obsession with me HAS to come to an end . . .

 

[Renniks]

Sooooo, homosexuals DON'T have a right to be loved by their parents?
WHERE does the Bible say that you're supposed to hate and ostracize your child if they are homosexual?

No such thing according to scripture as a homosexual. Interesting that you believe something that is against scripture.
Having homosexual desire does not make one a homo, BTW. It's not any different than any other temptation. To claim children can be homo shows how far you fall from scripture.