Mary, Queen of Heaven

[Marymog]

And yet Catholics do just that. I've heard their prayers. It's creepy the way they glorify Mary...as if they have to go through her to get to Jesus.

Hi Renniks. Thanks for your opinion. I understand how you have come to your conclusions! Rest assured The Church stands with you (translation: you agree with 2,000 year teaching of The Church) and does not support the glorification of anyone but Christ.

BTW.....in an effort to keep it real....Orthodox and some Protestant churches have similar Marian beliefs/practices/doctrines....whatever you want to call them. It is unfair of you to say “Catholics do just that” when Orthodox and some Protestants that “do just that”. I know you don’t want to be unfair so I suspect in the future you will acknowledge it is not just a ‘Catholic thing’?

Mary

 

[Marymog]

Tertullian (d. circa 200) rejected the apocryphal protogospel and with it Mary's virginitas in partu and her virginitas post partum (see De carne Christi, 23).

There is a common misunderstanding that Irenaeus supported the notion of ever-virginity. He didn't.

And if the former [Eve] did disobey God, yet the latter was persuaded to be obedient to God, in order that the Virgin Mary might become the patroness4617 (advocata) of the virgin Eve. And thus, as the human race fell into bondage to death by means of a virgin, so is it rescued by a virgin; virginal disobedience having been balanced in the opposite scale by virginal obedience. Philip Schaff: ANF01. The Apostolic Fathers with Justin Martyr and Irenaeus - Christian Classics Ethereal Library

Everyone agrees that the virgin Eve did not remain in that state. Yet, people skip that application!

As to other allegations about Polycarp, Justin Martyr, and Ignatius also believing in an ever-virgin motif, please note that no quotations from them are provided that say such beliefs. In other words, there's no proof any of them taught or thought that Jesus was born in any way but by a normal human birth.

So to claim in the early church every one believing in Mary s perpetual virginity is incorrect.

Thank you Renniks. Two things to cover here:

FIRST: You have given the perfect example of how The Church comes to its doctrines/beliefs/practices/dogma. The Church does not rely on the writings/beliefs of individual men to come up with dogma. It relies on the magisterium which is made up of many men of The Church. It is The Church that is guided to the Truth by the Holy Spirit just like the Apostles gave us at the Council of Jerusalem and future Councils that decided what book (letters) were considered Scripture etc. Protestantism relies on the alleged INDIVIDUAL guidance of the Holy Spirit to create their dogma/beliefs/doctrine which is OPPOSITE of what The Apostles taught us and The Church has practiced for 2,000 years.

Second: You are right when you say that "no quotations from them (Polycarp, Justin Martyr, Ignatius) are provided that say such beliefs". If you want to take the time to study a little bit more you would see that Jerome wrote "Ignatius, Polycarp, Irenaeus, Justin Martyr, and many other apostolic and eloquent men, who against [the heretics] Ebion, Theodotus of Byzantium, and Valentinus, held these same views and wrote volumes replete with wisdom. If you had ever read what they wrote, you would be a wiser man”.

In summary Christian History shows us that that early church did teach/defend/write about her perpetual virginity starting 150AD all the way thru today. AND there is written evidence from Jerome that perhaps there are some lost writings from Ignatius, Polycarp, Irenaeus and Justin Martyr supporting her perpetual virginity. I do not feel comfortable calling Jerome a liar. Do you? Did you know that Jerome wrote that? Sooo for you to say "There is a common misunderstanding that Irenaeus supported the notion of ever-virginity. He didn't." is not entirely true and a bit dishonest. There is evidence that he did support perpetual virginity and NO EVIDENCE that he didn't support it. I know you are not a dishonest person so perhaps you would like to re-tract that statement?

The teaching of her not being a perpetual virgin started AFTER the Reformation since the most notable men of the Reformation taught what The Church teaches. Why does the teaching that you accept, which is 500 years old, cancel out the almost 2,000 year teaching of Christianity?

The fact is that there is more evidence to support that the early church DID support her perpetual virginity. You are entitled to your opinion but you can't change history.

Historical Mary

 

[Marymog]

Marymog said: ↑
You are right. To glorify (praise and worship) any human would be a violation of Gods law so you shouldn't do that.



Hi @Marymog , @Mungo , I've heard this objection to Catholic practice concerning Mary, is this the right way to understand your view about Mary and Jesus in heaven, that we are afforded a greater audience with Jesus if we accord Mary her proper honor?

Much love!

Hi Marks,

I appreciate your question! It should be clear that my view doesn't matter. What matters is what The Church, the pillar and foundation of truth, teaches. So I will try to answer (readers digest version) your question based on what I BELIEVE you are asking:

Jesus respects, honors and loves his mother. Jesus, like men, are commanded to honor their father and mother. Jesus would honor any request his mother makes of Him. Scripture says of you and me "ask and you shall receive". Would this be any less if His mother asks anything of Him?

Hope that helps. Maybe @Mungo can elaborate.

Respectfully, Mary

 

[marks]

Hi Marks,

I appreciate your question! It should be clear that my view doesn't matter. What matters is what The Church, the pillar and foundation of truth, teaches. So I will try to answer (readers digest version) your question based on what I BELIEVE you are asking:

Jesus respects, honors and loves his mother. Jesus, like men, are commanded to honor their father and mother. Jesus would honor any request his mother makes of Him. Scripture says of you and me "ask and you shall receive". Would this be any less if His mother asks anything of Him?

Hope that helps. Maybe @Mungo can elaborate.

Respectfully, Mary

OK, I understand. I appreciate both your clarity and brevity!!

Jesus gives a greater weight to petitions made by His mother than He does from us, therefore, we do better to ask Jesus' mother to ask Jesus for the things we want than to ask Jesus directly.

I guess over the years I've come to address my prayers generally to my "Heavenly Father", my Unseen Creator, Who is here with me now. Do you have that sense? That you are are directly in the presence of your Unseen Creator?

Much love!

 

[Jim B]

OK, I understand. I appreciate both your clarity and brevity!!

Jesus gives a greater weight to petitions made by His mother than He does from us, therefore, we do better to ask Jesus' mother to ask Jesus for the things we want than to ask Jesus directly.

I guess over the years I've come to address my prayers generally to my "Heavenly Father", my Unseen Creator, Who is here with me now. Do you have that sense? That you are are directly in the presence of your Unseen Creator?

Much love!

There is no scriptural basis for saying "Jesus gives a greater weight to petitions made by His mother than He does from us". Perhaps Catholics do this but that doesn't mean it's true.

 

[Renniks]

Thank you Renniks. Two things to cover here:

FIRST: You have given the perfect example of how The Church comes to its doctrines/beliefs/practices/dogma. The Church does not rely on the writings/beliefs of individual men to come up with dogma. It relies on the magisterium which is made up of many men of The Church. It is The Church that is guided to the Truth by the Holy Spirit just like the Apostles gave us at the Council of Jerusalem and future Councils that decided what book (letters) were considered Scripture etc. Protestantism relies on the alleged INDIVIDUAL guidance of the Holy Spirit to create their dogma/beliefs/doctrine which is OPPOSITE of what The Apostles taught us and The Church has practiced for 2,000 years.

Second: You are right when you say that "no quotations from them (Polycarp, Justin Martyr, Ignatius) are provided that say such beliefs". If you want to take the time to study a little bit more you would see that Jerome wrote "Ignatius, Polycarp, Irenaeus, Justin Martyr, and many other apostolic and eloquent men, who against [the heretics] Ebion, Theodotus of Byzantium, and Valentinus, held these same views and wrote volumes replete with wisdom. If you had ever read what they wrote, you would be a wiser man”.

In summary Christian History shows us that that early church did teach/defend/write about her perpetual virginity starting 150AD all the way thru today. AND there is written evidence from Jerome that perhaps there are some lost writings from Ignatius, Polycarp, Irenaeus and Justin Martyr supporting her perpetual virginity. I do not feel comfortable calling Jerome a liar. Do you? Did you know that Jerome wrote that? Sooo for you to say "There is a common misunderstanding that Irenaeus supported the notion of ever-virginity. He didn't." is not entirely true and a bit dishonest. There is evidence that he did support perpetual virginity and NO EVIDENCE that he didn't support it. I know you are not a dishonest person so perhaps you would like to re-tract that statement?

The teaching of her not being a perpetual virgin started AFTER the Reformation since the most notable men of the Reformation taught what The Church teaches. Why does the teaching that you accept, which is 500 years old, cancel out the almost 2,000 year teaching of Christianity?

The fact is that there is more evidence to support that the early church DID support her perpetual virginity. You are entitled to your opinion but you can't change history.

Historical Mary

History isn't important. Truth is. Yes the church embraced many false teachings, based on tradition instead of scripture. I'm not concerned about what Jorome said. I'm concerned about what scripture says.
How old a teaching is is also really not the issue, although many varied beliefs about many topics have always been present in the universal church. So to claim the Catholic Church teachings never change? Paaaleese! They change with every pope. You currently have a pope who is fine with same sex marriage. And he's supposed to speak for God. I think you have it backwards. It's the Protestants who got tired of the churches unbiblical teaching that the apostles would have been horrified at, and brought us back to scripture as a guide instead of one man's whims.

 

[Marymog]

OK, I understand. I appreciate both your clarity and brevity!!

Jesus gives a greater weight to petitions made by His mother than He does from us, therefore, we do better to ask Jesus' mother to ask Jesus for the things we want than to ask Jesus directly.

I guess over the years I've come to address my prayers generally to my "Heavenly Father", my Unseen Creator, Who is here with me now. Do you have that sense? That you are are directly in the presence of your Unseen Creator?

Much love!

Hi Marks. Perhaps I wasn't clear. I will try again.

Your first comment that Jesus gives a greater weight to petitions made by His mother is true. Wouldn't you do the same for your mother over me?

The Church does not teach that "we do better to ask Jesus' mother to ask Jesus for the things we want than to ask Jesus directly."

The Catholic Church teaches that salvation comes through Jesus alone (Acts 4:12) since he is the “one mediator between God and man” (1 Tm 2:5-6). Asking you or members of this forum or His mother to intercede (pray) for me does not leave out going directly to Him. After all, Scripture encourages us to pray for one another. If you ask me to pray for you are you in effect passing over direct prayers to Him? No, of course not. You can still ALSO pray to Him. It's not a either or choice. According to Scripture We can do both.

Hope that helps...Mary

 

[Marymog]

History isn't important. Truth is.. .....

History isn't important but you pick the most recent teaching in history instead of the most ancient teaching??? The most recent teaching is The Truth but the longest held teaching is not The Truth??? Hmmmm.....

 

[Marymog]

I'm not concerned about what Jorome said. I'm concerned about what scripture says.....

You quote Philip Schaff AND what Tertullian said AND falsly allege that Polycarp, Justin Martyr, and Ignatius were silent on perpetual virginity AND the alleged common misunderstanding of what Irenaeus said about it......But your not concerned about what Jerome said????? Huh? You are concerned what everyone else said (or allegedly didn't say) but when it comes to Jerome...throw him out?

Is that because what he said destroys what you believe?

Curious Mary

 

[Renniks]

You quote Philip Schaff AND what Tertullian said AND falsly allege that Polycarp, Justin Martyr, and Ignatius were silent on perpetual virginity AND the alleged common misunderstanding of what Irenaeus said about it......But your not concerned about what Jerome said????? Huh? You are concerned what everyone else said (or allegedly didn't say) but when it comes to Jerome...throw him out?

Is that because what he said destroys what you believe?

Curious Mary

I'm pointing out the obvious: There was no consensus in the early church on perpetual virginity. How important is that? Not very, but you seem to imply that everyone just accepted it as fact when they didn't.
Unless you have quotes from Irenaeus and the others confirming perpetual virginity to of Mary, something Jerome said that may or may not be true, has no bearing.

 

[Renniks]

History isn't important but you pick the most recent teaching in history instead of the most ancient teaching??? The most recent teaching is The Truth but the longest held teaching is not The Truth??? Hmmmm.....

I'm not picking the most recent teaching I'm staying with scripture. If it doesn't address an issue, I sure am not going to agree with a made up a doctrine about it.

 

[Marymog]

I'm pointing out the obvious: There was no consensus in the early church on perpetual virginity. How important is that? Not very, but you seem to imply that everyone just accepted it as fact when they didn't.
Unless you have quotes from Irenaeus and the others confirming perpetual virginity to of Mary, something Jerome said that may or may not be true, has no bearing.

Hello Renniks,

OK....What is important is that you show me writings of Christian men from the early Church that were teaching against Mary's perpetual virginity!!

Of course what Jerome said has bearing. It appears he was privy to writings from those men that didn't survive. Silence on the matter doesn't negate the possibility those men wrote about. As we have seen there was no silence on the matter. Jerome suggested they DID write about it and believed it. Once again: Do you think Jerome was lying?

I look forward to your evidence....Patient Mary

 

[Marymog]

I'm not picking the most recent teaching I'm staying with scripture. If it doesn't address an issue, I sure am not going to agree with a made up a doctrine about it.

Well, you have picked the most recent teaching since the teaching you have picked is only 500 years old.

BTW...Scripture called Mary a virgin sooooo if you are "staying with scripture" then wouldn't you call her a virgin also?

 

[Mungo]

So to claim the Catholic Church teachings never change? Paaaleese! They change with every pope. You currently have a pope who is fine with same sex marriage.

That is a lie.

 

[Renniks]

Of course what Jerome said has bearing. It appears he was privy to writings from those men that didn't survive. Silence on the matter doesn't negate the possibility those men wrote about.

"It appears.." is very shakey ground.

 

[Marymog]

"It appears.." is very shakey ground.

Lol.....cut and paste and dodge the question. How dishonest!!

THIRD TIME: Do you think Jerome was lying?

 

[Renniks]

That is a lie.

What is a lie? That your pope endorses same-sex marriage?

 

[Renniks]

Lol.....cut and paste and dodge the question. How dishonest!!

THIRD TIME: Do you think Jerome was lying?

It's not a dodge. How can you base anything on hear-say?

 

[Renniks]

Well, you have picked the most recent teaching since the teaching you have picked is only 500 years old.

BTW...Scripture called Mary a virgin sooooo if you are "staying with scripture" then wouldn't you call her a virgin also?

Because it says she was a virgin UNTIL Jesus was born. What is the big deal about Mary having sex like every other wife, anyway?

 

[Marymog]

Because it says she was a virgin UNTIL Jesus was born. What is the big deal about Mary having sex like every other wife, anyway?

Not playing that game kiddo. Answer my question first and I will answer yours: Do you think Jerome was lying?