Matthew 7:22-23

[shnarkle]

How could they work miracles in His Name then? You're not thinking.

God's people don't have a monopoly on miracles. We need look no further than the plagues sent to Egypt. Each plague that God sent to Egypt was mimicked by the Egyptian magicians as well. They were able to copy it and add their own plagues to God's plagues. They could throw down their staffs and Moses' staff simply consumed them. The difference is in the differing meaning one associates with "in his name" Those who have been given authority by God to work miracles work them "in his name", or by his authority and will, whereas a magician is able to perform similar miracles by conjuring, or using a name through magic. This is not according to God's authority at all, but only an effort to usurp God's authority; a power grab.

 

[Davy]

Hello @Davy,

When you use such terms as, 'miss-taught' in relation to me, or imply that I am trying to do anything underhand, then you will get no response from me.


* The same applies to this, Davy.
If you are not prepared to treat me as someone who, like yourself, values the Word of God, then I am not prepared to respond to your posts.

In Christ Jesus
Chris

The idea of applying many antichrists to the 2 Thess.2 "man of sin" subject is what you did, but that is not accurate. The one Paul spoke of there that's to do those wonders and signs is a singular Antichrist that's to appear in Jerusalem.

So if you can't take correction, then I don't care to converse with you either.

 

[Davy]

God's people don't have a monopoly on miracles. We need look no further than the plagues sent to Egypt. Each plague that God sent to Egypt was mimicked by the Egyptian magicians as well. They were able to copy it and add their own plagues to God's plagues. They could throw down their staffs and Moses' staff simply consumed them. The difference is in the differing meaning one associates with "in his name" Those who have been given authority by God to work miracles work them "in his name", or by his authority and will, whereas a magician is able to perform similar miracles by conjuring, or using a name through magic. This is not according to God's authority at all, but only an effort to usurp God's authority; a power grab.

So now those Jesus spoke of in Matt.7:15-27 are magicians? You guys just aren't thinking.

 

[shnarkle]

So now those Jesus spoke of in Matt.7:15-27 are magicians? You guys just aren't thinking.

Did they work miracles or not? Did they have authority to or not? Did they do these things "in your name", or not? See the difference yet? Perhaps you might want to think about it before posting a reply. Try and address the point rather than engaging in pointless ad hominem

 

[Davy]

Did they work miracles or not? Did they have authority to or not? Did they do these things "in your name", or not? See the difference yet? Perhaps you might want to think about it before posting a reply. Try and address the point rather than engaging in pointless ad hominem

In Matt.7:15, Jesus warned how many will say, "Lord, Lord" at His appearance, and the subject of their rejection is that they did NOT do the will of God:

Matt 7:21-23
21 Not every one that saith unto me, "Lord, Lord", shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of My Father Which is in heaven.

22 Many will say to Me in that day, "Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?"

23 And then will I profess unto them, "I never knew you: depart from Me, ye that work iniquity."
KJV


He was not denying they did works in His Name, but showed that they did iniquity, and that is the main matter of that Matt.7 example.

 

[shnarkle]

In Matt.7:15, Jesus warned how many will say, "Lord, Lord" at His appearance, and the subject of their rejection is that they did NOT do the will of God:

Matt 7:21-23
21 Not every one that saith unto me, "Lord, Lord", shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of My Father Which is in heaven.

22 Many will say to Me in that day, "Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?"

23 And then will I profess unto them, "I never knew you: depart from Me, ye that work iniquity."
KJV


He was not denying they did works in His Name, but showed that they did iniquity, and that is the main matter of that Matt.7 example.

Again, you're making my points for me. You seem to think that you're making some subtle point, but whatever it is, it is a distinction with no effective difference from what I'm posting.

 

[shnarkle]

Again, you're making my points for me. You seem to think that you're making some subtle point, but whatever it is, it is a distinction with no effective difference from what I'm posting.

What the magicians in Egypt accomplished was not "in God's name", and yet they were able to do these same signs and wonders. A sign is essentially a symbol, and as such indicates that there is something more to be seen. The meaning of the sign must be comprehended or it is nothing more than a meaningless sign. Likewise, it is the same for "in the name". A name is also a symbol; a symbol for authority, but there are those who have become transfixed with the name itself and believe that simply saying the name is enough to make them a Christian. They think this is enough to prove that they're saved, and they have the authority to use the name to heal, teach, prophecy etc. It's called putting the cart before the horse.

 

[Davy]

Again, you're making my points for me. You seem to think that you're making some subtle point, but whatever it is, it is a distinction with no effective difference from what I'm posting.

All I am doing is staying with the Scripture as written, which is exactly what I've been doing in my previous posts. It's not me that has failed to understand that Matt.7 Scripture. It is about what Jesus showed there, i.e., doing iniquity does not go along with the faith. It's like Apostle James said, we show our faith by... our works. Our works do not save us, but one in the faith will have them, and not be found doing iniquity.

One of the topics continually coming up on this forum is the Grace Movement, i.e, the OSAS doctrines of men. That movement tries to reinterpret God's Word about the necessity of future repentance to Jesus when we do mess up (1 John 1). By that repentance we are not found in iniquity when Jesus returns.

 

[shnarkle]

the OSAS doctrines of men. That movement tries to reinterpret God's Word about the necessity of future repentance to Jesus when we do mess up (1 John 1). By that repentance we are not found in iniquity when Jesus returns.

The problem with this analysis is that it doesn't take into consideration the fact that this doesn't apply under the conditions of the new covenant. So while it is quite true for those who must still rely upon Christ's sacrifice to cover their sins, it doesn't apply to those who are under the new covenant.

Romans 3:23 - For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

Hebrews 10:26-27 - For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

Hebrews 9:15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

Just because we've all sinned, it doesn't then follow that we will under the new covenant. This is explicitly pointed out in Jeremiah 31:31-34;Ezekiel 11:19;36:26; and Hebrews 8:9,10. The purpose is to keep God's laws. If Christ's sacrifice doesn't cover one's intentional sin, then one either doesn't sin, or they're damned. This is a fundamental principle of the Mosaic law that is reaffirmed in the New Testament by Christ and Paul both. Note that the author of Hebrews doesn't include transgressions that are committed under the second testament. They either are not covered, or they are not committed; take your pick. They may not even be mutually exclusive; just a matter of which one you choose.

 

[Nancy]

Matthew 7:22-23 "Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?' "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'

I’ve seen a few interpretations of this passage. I’ve been told that these are Christians who have forfeited their salvation by practicing lawlessness. Others have said that these are people practicing other religions and come to grips with the falseness of their religion. Personally, I believe that these are professing Christians who are under the delusion that they are saved while lacking a faith that transforms.


The reason I believe this is that these people recognize Jesus (“Lord, Lord”) as God. They appear to have been active in the work of the ministry - perhaps used by God to reach many for Christ. They have at some level bought into the Christian faith, but on a deeper level are found lacking for Christ never knew them.

What are other interpretations?

I have always took these verses to mean those like the Benny Hin's and the Kenneth Copeland's of this world...and the "prosperity" teachers out there. They might have started out well but, greed and power and ego took them over...JMHO.

 

[Davy]

The problem with this analysis is that it doesn't take into consideration the fact that this doesn't apply under the conditions of the new covenant. So while it is quite true for those who must still rely upon Christ's sacrifice to cover their sins, it doesn't apply to those who are under the new covenant.



Just because we've all sinned, it doesn't then follow that we will under the new covenant. This is explicitly pointed out in Jeremiah 31:31-34;Ezekiel 11:19;36:26; and Hebrews 8:9,10. The purpose is to keep God's laws. If Christ's sacrifice doesn't cover one's intentional sin, then one either doesn't sin, or they're damned. This is a fundamental principle of the Mosaic law that is reaffirmed in the New Testament by Christ and Paul both. Note that the author of Hebrews doesn't include transgressions that are committed under the second testament. They either are not covered, or they are not committed; take your pick. They may not even be mutually exclusive; just a matter of which one you choose.

Sorry, you can't make up your own salvation plan. We are still to repent of future sin we may commit after having believed on Jesus and been baptized.

Rom 3:24-25
24 Being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in His blood, to declare His righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
KJV


Luke 11:2-4
2 And He said unto them, When ye pray, say, Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, as in heaven, so in earth.
3 Give us day by day our daily bread.
4 And forgive us our sins; for we also forgive every one that is indebted to us. And lead us not into temptation; but deliver us from evil.
KJV

That's our Lord Jesus telling us how... to pray. Notice He included asking forgiveness of our sins.

This was the subject Apostle John was speaking of in 1 John 1 that so many on OSAS refuse to heed.

 

[Nancy]

'Not every one that saith unto me, "Lord, Lord,"
shall enter into the kingdom of heaven;
but he that doeth the will of My Father which is in heaven.
Many will say to me in that day,

"Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Thy name?
and in Thy name have cast out devils?
and in Thy name done many wonderful works?"​

And then will I profess unto them,

I never knew you:
depart from Me,
ye that work iniquity.'​

(Matthew 7:21)

Hello @Davy & @marks,

There will be many working 'miracles', even in His Name, 'in that day', will there not? In the form of lying signs and wonders. They will not be men of faith, otherwise our Lord would not say that He never knew them. They will be counterfeit. Remember Jannes and Jambres in the time of Moses? (2 Timothy 3:8)

The 'day' referred to is important in regard to understanding this I feel.

In Christ Jesus
Chris

I think we can forget that satan also has powers to work lying "signs and wonders" to deceive and, these "miracle workers" who Jesus said He never knew, could possibly be those who preach a false gospel to appease their greed, ego and power-hungry selves?

 

[Davy]

I have always took these verses to mean those like the Benny Hin's and the Kenneth Copeland's of this world...and the "prosperity" teachers out there. They might have started out well but, greed and power and ego took them over...JMHO.

Yet if they repent to Jesus, and make a change, He is just to forgive (1 John 1).

 

[Davy]

I think we can forget that satan also has powers to work lying "signs and wonders" to deceive and, these "miracle workers" who Jesus said He never knew, could possibly be those who preach a false gospel to appease their greed, ego and power-hungry selves?

No Nancy. The very one that Apostle Paul was warning about in 2 Thessalonians 2 coming to work lying wonders and signs will be the devil, parading as Messiah in Jerusalem. This is why our Lord Jesus warned in Rev.12:7-17 about Satan being cast out of Heaven down to this earth at the end, and his going to persecute those who keep God's commandments and have the Testimony of Jesus Christ. He also warned of this in Matthew 24:23-26 of the deceptions that false one will work in Jerusalem for the end. Rev.11 tells he will ascend out of the bottomless pit to kill God's two witnesses in Jerusalem.

 

[Enoch111]

...but on a deeper level are found lacking for Christ never knew them.

And there you have it. They were not "in Christ". But they professed Christ and did many things in His name. We have all kinds of *Christian clergy* today who would fill that bill.

 

[Nancy]

No Nancy. The very one that Apostle Paul was warning about in 2 Thessalonians 2 coming to work lying wonders and signs will be the devil, parading as Messiah in Jerusalem. This is why our Lord Jesus warned in Rev.12:7-17 about Satan being cast out of Heaven down to this earth at the end, and his going to persecute those who keep God's commandments and have the Testimony of Jesus Christ. He also warned of this in Matthew 24:23-26 of the deceptions that false one will work in Jerusalem for the end. Rev.11 tells he will ascend out of the bottomless pit to kill God's two witnesses in Jerusalem.

Hi Davy,


"No Nancy. The very one that Apostle Paul was warning about in 2 Thessalonians 2coming to work lying wonders and signs will be the devil, parading as Messiah in Jerusalem."

No Nancy. The very one that Apostle Paul was warning about in 2 Thessalonians 2 coming to work lying wonders and signs will be the devil, parading as Messiah in Jerusalem. This is why our Lord Jesus warned in Rev.12:7-17 about Satan being cast out of Heaven down to this earth at the end, and his going to persecute those who keep God's commandments and have the Testimony of Jesus Christ. He also warned of this in Matthew 24:23-26 of the deceptions that false one will work in Jerusalem for the end. Rev.11 tells he will ascend out of the bottomless pit to kill God's two witnesses in Jerusalem.

Nancy said:
"I think we can forget that satan also has powers to work lying "signs and wonders" to deceive and, these "miracle workers" who Jesus said He never knew, could possibly be those who preach a false gospel to appease their greed, ego and power-hungry selves?

Davy said: ""No Nancy. The very one that Apostle Paul was warning about in 2 Thessalonians 2coming to work lying wonders and signs will be the devil, parading as Messiah in Jerusalem."

Nancy NOW say's (Lol) :
"“Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.”
It is just what I see.

PS: Not sure where 2 Cor.2 came in here. ♥

 

[shnarkle]

I have always took these verses to mean those like the Benny Hin's and the Kenneth Copeland's of this world...and the "prosperity" teachers out there. They might have started out well but, greed and power and ego took them over...JMHO.

I don't think people are able to comprehend the incomprehensible amounts of money these preachers take in every year. The amount of money they graft off for themselves is insignificant by comparison. When you look at the private jets, the mansions, the vacations, the infrastructure they have in place to broadcast their ministries around the world, it boggles the mind. Joel Osteen doesn't even take a salary for his ministry. His sole source of income is from his book sales, CD's DVD's etc. He's working for a living and people get bent over how much money he makes.

The sad fact is that it really doesn't matter how much money anyone makes because Jesus draws the line at the first dime. He says to "forsake all", and that's only going to happen to those to whom God reveals the kingdom to in the first place. Look around, and it becomes quite apparent that we're all on the other side of that line with the Kenneth Copelands and the Benny Hinns of this world.

 

[shnarkle]

Sorry, you can't make up your own salvation plan. <snip>

Sorry, but you ignored my post. Address the facts presented or concede defeat. You can't ignore scripture to prove your point. All you're doing is creating contradictions. You have to reconcile your position with what the texts state. It's called "rightly dividing the word".

 

[Davy]

....
Nancy NOW say's (Lol) :
"“Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.”
It is just what I see.

PS: Not sure where 2 Cor.2 came in here. ♥

The proper interpretation of 1 John 2:18 about the word antichrist is about both a singular antichrist they had heard shall come, and that already there were many antichrists at work. You only stressed the latter phrase of the verse.

"... and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come,...'

Where... did they first hear that antichrist shall come? That first part is about a singular antichrist.

 

[Davy]

Sorry, but you ignored my post. Address the facts presented or concede defeat. You can't ignore scripture to prove your point. All you're doing is creating contradictions. You have to reconcile your position with what the texts state. It's called "rightly dividing the word".

Oh, I replied alright, even showed you how Jesus told us to pray, asking forgiveness of our sins as... believers.

And if one is a believer on Christ Jesus, then that believer is under the New Covenant. The old covenant is dead, no more.