Meet the ruler of the Nations, the Shepherd.

[Spiritual Israelite]

#1 - ALL will be judged in due time = according to the Will and Plan of God

Please address what I said in my post. I quoted a passage that indicates all unbelievers will be judged when Christ returns, not "in due time" as you are claiming.

"For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without law, and as many as have sinned in the law will be judged by the law (for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified; for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves, who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them) in the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel.'

#2 - The first judgment of God will be upon the Antichrist and those who take his Mark = 2 Thess ch2

The "first judgment of God"? Where does scripture teach that there will be multiple judgment days?

Acts 17:30 In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent. 31 For he has set a day when he will judge the world with justice by the man he has appointed. He has given proof of this to everyone by raising him from the dead.”

Scripture teaches that there is one judgment day that God has set to judge all people everywhere/the world/everyone. That day is portrayed in passages like Matthew 25:31-46 which shows that it will occur at the second coming of Christ.

#3 - God is in control of all things and He alone decides who lives and who dies = not you, me or any religious belief.

Of course, and scripture teaches that He has decided that all of His enemies will die when Christ returns.

Zechariah 14:16
And it shall come to pass that everyone who is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the Feast of Tabernacles

Your interpretation of this verse contradicts many other verses. Do you not care about that? Does the New Testament shed light on the Old Testament? I believe it does. Do you think it's the other way around?

 

[David in NJ]

Please address what I said in my post. I quoted a passage that indicates all unbelievers will be judged when Christ returns, not "in due time" as you are claiming.


The "first judgment of God"? Where does scripture teach that there will be multiple judgment days?

Acts 17:30 In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent. 31 For he has set a day when he will judge the world with justice by the man he has appointed. He has given proof of this to everyone by raising him from the dead.”

Scripture teaches that there is one judgment day that God has set to judge all people everywhere/the world/everyone. That day is portrayed in passages like Matthew 25:31-46 which shows that it will occur at the second coming of Christ.


Of course, and scripture teaches that He has decided that all of His enemies will die when Christ returns.



Your interpretation of this verse contradicts many other verses. Do you not care about that? Does the New Testament shed light on the Old Testament? I believe it does. Do you think it's the other way around?

OT and NT AGREE = there is only One Foundation

Now, therefore, you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief cornerstone, in whom the whole building, being fitted together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord, in whom you also are being built together for a dwelling place of God in the Spirit.

The angel whom I saw standing on the sea and on the land raised up his hand to heaven and swore by Him who lives forever and ever, who created heaven and the things that are in it, the earth and the things that are in it, and the sea and the things that are in it, that there should be delay no longer, but in the days of the sounding of the seventh angel, when he is about to sound, the mystery of God would be finished, as He declared to His servants the prophets.

 

[jeffweeder]

Scripture teaches that there is one judgment day that God has set to judge all people everywhere/the world/everyone. That day is portrayed in passages like Matthew 25:31-46 which shows that it will occur at the second coming of Christ.

Yes, it is referred to as Gods righteous judgment.


Rom 2
5 But because of your callous stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are [deliberately] storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath when God’s righteous judgment will be revealed. 6 He will pay back to each person according to his deeds [justly, as his deeds deserve]: 7 to those who by persistence in doing good seek [unseen but certain heavenly] glory, honor, and immortality, [He will give the gift of] eternal life. 8 But for those who are selfishly ambitious and self-seeking and disobedient to the truth but responsive to wickedness, [there will be] wrath and indignation.

2Thes 1
5 This is a positive proof of the righteous judgment of God [a sign of His fair verdict], so that you will be considered worthy of His kingdom, for which indeed you are suffering. 6 For after all it is only just for God to repay with distress those who distress you, 7 and to give relief to you who are so distressed and to us as well when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in a flame of fire, 8 dealing out [full and complete] vengeance to those who do not [seek to] know God and to those who ignore and refuse to obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus [by choosing not to respond to Him]. 9 These people will pay the penalty and endure the punishment of everlasting destruction, banished from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes to be glorified in His saints on that day [that is, glorified through the changed lives of those who have accepted Him as Savior and have been set apart for His purpose], and to be marveled at among all who have believed, because our testimony to you was believed and trusted [and confirmed in your lives].

Jn 5
26 For just as the Father has life in Himself [and is self-existent], even so He has given to the Son to have life in Himself [and be self-existent]. 27 And He has given Him authority to execute judgment, because He is a Son of Man [sinless humanity, qualifying Him to sit in judgment over mankind].
28 Do not be surprised at this; for a time is coming when all those who are in the tombs will hear His voice, 29 and they will come out—those who did good things [will come out] to a resurrection of [new] life, but those who did evil things [will come out] to a resurrection of judgment [that is, to be sentenced].

 

[Mr E]

2 Thess 1:6 God is just: He will pay back trouble to those who trouble you 7 and give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well. This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels. 8 He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might 10 on the day he comes to be glorified in his holy people and to be marveled at among all those who have believed. This includes you, because you believed our testimony to you.

This passage very clearly indicates that Jesus will be destroying and punishing all "those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus" when He returns. So, what that in mind, what would qualify any unbeliever to survive His second coming?

That's not what Paul is referencing.

He's quoting from Isaiah 66, where Isaiah is talking about those religious folks who persecute Christ followers. It's judgment on the church folk, not unbelievers that he's talking about. If you read the entire letters to the Thessalonians you read Paul speaking in exacting terms, taken from Is 66---- he's referencing it throughout. All the language he uses about breastfeeding and birth come directly from Isaiah who is talking about judgment on the whole corrupt religious system.

--the sound of the LORD paying back his enemies has everything to do with those religious leaders persecuting people who desire to do God's will.

The sound of battle comes from the temple, because that's where the slaughter happens.

Listen to the LORD’s message,
you who respect his word!
“Your countrymen, who hate you
and exclude you, supposedly for the sake of my name,
say, ‘May the LORD be glorified,
then we will witness your joy.’

But they will be put to shame.
The sound of battle comes from the city;
the sound comes from the temple!
It is the sound of the LORD paying back his enemies.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

OT and NT AGREE = there is only One Foundation

Yes, but did you miss the point? I'm saying that the NT sheds light on the OT. For example, would we know from reading the OT alone that the promises God made to Abraham and his seed were made to Jesus Christ and those who belong to Him? No, right? We learn that from what Paul taught in passages like Galatians 3:16-29. So, the NT is shedding light on what was written in the OT there. Do you understand what I'm saying?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

That's not what Paul is referencing.

He's quoting from Isaiah 66, where Isaiah is talking about those religious folks who persecute Christ followers. It's judgment on the church folk, not unbelievers that he's talking about. If you read the entire letters to the Thessalonians you read Paul speaking in exacting terms, taken from Is 66---- he's referencing it throughout. All the language he uses about breastfeeding and birth come directly from Isaiah who is talking about judgment on the whole corrupt religious system.

--the sound of the LORD paying back his enemies has everything to do with those religious leaders persecuting people who desire to do God's will.

The sound of battle comes from the temple, because that's where the slaughter happens.

Listen to the LORD’s message,
you who respect his word!
“Your countrymen, who hate you
and exclude you, supposedly for the sake of my name,
say, ‘May the LORD be glorified,
then we will witness your joy.’

But they will be put to shame.
The sound of battle comes from the city;
the sound comes from the temple!
It is the sound of the LORD paying back his enemies.

I completely disagree. Yes, they are included among those who don't know God or obey the gospel, but Paul was including all who don't know God or obey the gospel. I see no basis whatsoever for concluding otherwise. Especially when other scripture also teaches that Christ will destroy and punish all of His enemies when He returns. Such as this passage:

Matthew 24:35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away. 36 “But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. 37 As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 38 For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark; 39 and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man.

Who died in the flood? Just certain types of unbelievers like those who persecute believers? Or was it all unbelievers? It was all unbelievers, right? Jesus said that just as the flood came and destroyed all unbelievers "that is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man". All unbelievers will be destroyed. Just as Peter indicated here as well:

2 Peter 3:3 Above all, you must understand that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires. 4 They will say, “Where is this ‘coming’ he promised? Ever since our ancestors died, everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation.” 5 But they deliberately forget that long ago by God’s word the heavens came into being and the earth was formed out of water and by water. 6 By these waters also the world of that time was deluged and destroyed. 7 By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly...10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything done in it will be laid bare. 11 Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to live holy and godly lives 12 as you look forward to the day of God and speed its coming. That day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt in the heat. 13 But in keeping with his promise we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, where righteousness dwells.

The earth will be destroyed by fire when Jesus returns on the day of the Lord. It's no wonder that Paul said this regarding the day Christ returns:

1 Thess 5:2 for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. 3 While people are saying, “Peace and safety,” destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape.

Why did Paul indicate that these people "will not escape" the destruction that "will come on them suddenly"? Because people obviously will not be able to escape fire coming down on the entire earth. Jesus is coming like a thief in the night and no unbeliever will be spared His wrath. This is what scripture clearly teaches.

 

[David in NJ]

Yes, but did you miss the point? I'm saying that the NT sheds light on the OT. For example, would we know from reading the OT alone that the promises God made to Abraham and his seed were made to Jesus Christ and those who belong to Him? No, right? We learn that from what Paul taught in passages like Galatians 3:16-29. So, the NT is shedding light on what was written in the OT there. Do you understand what I'm saying?

Yes we would know that thru the Holy Spirit just as the Apostles were shown this thru the OT Scripture

Isaiah 49:6
Indeed He says,
‘It is too small a thing that You should be My Servant
To raise up the tribes of Jacob,
And to restore the preserved ones of Israel;
I will also give You as a light to the Gentiles,
That You should be My salvation to the ends of the earth.’ ”

Isaiah 45:22
“Look to Me, and be saved,
All you ends of the earth!
For I am God, and there is no other.

Isaiah 60:1-3
Arise, shine;
For your light has come!
And the glory of the Lord is risen upon you.
For behold, the darkness shall cover the earth,
And deep darkness the people;
But the Lord will arise over you,
And His glory will be seen upon you.
The Gentiles shall come to your light,
And kings to the brightness of your rising

Do you understand this?

AND

Do you understand this? - Ephesians ch2

Now, therefore, you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief cornerstone, in whom the whole building, being fitted together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord, in whom you also are being built together for a dwelling place of God in the Spirit.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Yes we would know that thru the Holy Spirit just as the Apostles were shown this thru the OT Scripture

We would? So, why was the New Testament written then? For no real reason? Looks like you're saying that all we need is the OT scripture.

 

[Mr E]

I completely disagree. Yes, they are included among those who don't know God or obey the gospel, but Paul was including all who don't know God or obey the gospel. I see no basis whatsoever for concluding otherwise. Especially when other scripture also teaches that Christ will destroy and punish all of His enemies when He returns.

It doesn't bother me that you disagree. What exactly are you disagreeing with? Scripture?

Are you disagreeing that Paul's letter(s) to the Thessalonians are based on theology rooted in Isaiah? If so, I completely disagree with your disagreement. It's clearly and explicitly based on Is 66.

But what was Isaiah referring to? What judgment? Well--- the coming judgment on the temple and his prophecy was fulfilled a couple hundred years later by the Babylonians.

And when Jesus came confronting the temple leaders some five hundred years after that, he too was pointing to a coming destruction of the temple and an end to religious corruption.

The earth will be destroyed by fire when Jesus returns on the day of the Lord. It's no wonder that Paul said this regarding the day Christ returns:

1 Thess 5:2 for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. 3 While people are saying, “Peace and safety,” destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape.

Why did Paul indicate that these people "will not escape" the destruction that "will come on them suddenly"? Because people obviously will not be able to escape fire coming down on the entire earth. Jesus is coming like a thief in the night and no unbeliever will be spared His wrath. This is what scripture clearly teaches.

The temple was surely judged and destroyed by fire in 70 AD. Paul wrote to the Thessalonians before that fulfillment. So he was referencing Isaiah and that 'history' and that theology which he knew. If you don't think or can't grasp his frame of reference-- I can't help you. You'll have to remain disagreeable toward what you don't even comprehend.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

It doesn't bother me that you disagree. What exactly are you disagreeing with? Scripture?

You, of course. Did you actually think I might answer that I'm disagreeing with Scripture? Do you want me to take you seriously or not?

Are you disagreeing that Paul's letter(s) to the Thessalonians are based on theology rooted in Isaiah? If so, I completely disagree with your disagreement. It's clearly and explicitly based on Is 66.

But what was Isaiah referring to? What judgment? Well--- the coming judgment on the temple and his prophecy was fulfilled a couple hundred years later by the Babylonians.

And when Jesus came confronting the temple leaders some five hundred years after that, he too was pointing to a coming destruction of the temple and an end to religious corruption.

Ah, so you're a preterist who denies that passages like 2 Thess 1:6-10 are about the future return of Christ? Are you a full preterist or a partial preterist?

The temple was surely judged and destroyed by fire in 70 AD.

Of course it was. That was an event that occurred in Jerusalem. Paul was not writing about an event in Jerusalem in 2 Thess 1:7-10.

Paul wrote to the Thessalonians before that fulfillment. So he was referencing Isaiah and that 'history' and that theology which he knew. If you don't think or can't grasp his frame of reference-- I can't help you. You'll have to remain disagreeable toward what you don't even comprehend.

I don't need your help and I'm not asking for it. You clearly don't comprehend what Paul was writing about in 2 Thess 1:7-10, which is what we're talking about.

 

[jeffweeder]

Paul was not writing about an event in Jerusalem in 2 Thess 1:7-10.

Clearly.
Were the ungodly eternally separated? Was the Church glorified with a body like his glorious body in 70AD.
I think not.

 

[David in NJ]

We would? So, why was the New Testament written then? For no real reason? Looks like you're saying that all we need is the OT scripture.

Not at all.

That is why i asked you if you understand

 

[ewq1938]

Only His enemies.

Again, it proves not all mortals will be killed. Rev 19 shows all of an army is slain there. Around the world there are an unknown amount of civilians that will be ruled by the rod of iron for a thousand years.

 

[Mr E]

You, of course. Did you actually think I might answer that I'm disagreeing with Scripture? Do you want me to take you seriously or not?


Ah, so you're a preterist who denies that passages like 2 Thess 1:6-10 are about the future return of Christ? Are you a full preterist or a partial preterist?


Of course it was. That was an event that occurred in Jerusalem. Paul was not writing about an event in Jerusalem in 2 Thess 1:7-10.


I don't need your help and I'm not asking for it. You clearly don't comprehend what Paul was writing about in 2 Thess 1:7-10, which is what we're talking about.

Moses wouldn’t stop and ask for directions either. Reap what you sow. Your name fits perfectly.


Do you know there are both Jews and Christians today (many of them) who believe that Christ will return, build yet another temple and reinstate animal sacrifice.

Maybe you are among those?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Not at all.

That is why i asked you if you understand

I understand that you have trouble communicating clearly for some reason.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Moses wouldn’t stop and ask for directions either. Reap what you sow. Your name fits perfectly.

What is that supposed to mean?

Do you know there are both Jews and Christians today (many of them) who believe that Christ will return, build yet another temple and reinstate animal sacrifice.

Maybe you are among those?

Not even close. I am an Amillennialist. You clearly have no idea of what I believe.

 

[David in NJ]

I understand that you have trouble communicating clearly for some reason.

So you do not understand.

 

[Timtofly]

Exactly. How do Premils reconcile their beliefs with the fact that both the resurrection of believers and the judgment of unbelievers will occur on the last day? Not 1,000+ years apart as they claim. Both will occur on the same day, which is the last day. Just as Jesus clearly taught.

He also taught that believers will be rewarded and unbelievers cast into the fire at the same time. On the last day, as you indicated and that will be at "the end of the age".

Matthew 13:40 “As the weeds are pulled up and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the age. 41 The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil. 42 They will throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Whoever has ears, let them hear.

Jesus will return at the end of the age (Matt 24:3) and He indicated it will be at that time that the righteous will inherit "the kingdom of their Father" and the unrighteous will be thrown "into the blazing furnace". This again places the reward for believers and punishment of unbelievers at the same time, not 1,000+ years apart as Premils claim.

There is nothing in Matthew 13 about a resurrection though. These are humans alive on the earth at the point of the Second Coming. Those alive will be granted eternal life and changed. Those wicked are cast alive into the LOF.

These are not physically dead people. They are spiritually dead people. They are declared redeemed or cast into the fire.