Meh

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Willie T

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Once on Mount Athos there was a monk who lived in Karyes. He drank and got drunk every day and was the cause of scandal to the pilgrims. Eventually he died and this relieved some of the faithful who went on to tell Elder Paisios that they were delighted that this huge problem was finally solved.

Father Paisios answered them that he knew about the death of the monk, after seeing the entire battalion of angels who came to collect his soul. The pilgrims were amazed and some protested and tried to explain to the Elder of whom they were talking about, thinking that the Elder did not understand.

Elder Paisios explained to them: "This particular monk was born in Asia Minor, shortly before the destruction by the Turks when they gathered all the boys. So as not to take him from their parents, they would take him with them to the reaping, and so he wouldn't cry, they just put raki into his milk in order for him to sleep. Therefore he grew up as an alcoholic. There he found an elder and said to him that he was an alcoholic. The elder told him to do prostrations and prayers every night and beg the Panagia to help him to reduce by one the glasses he drank.

After a year he managed with struggle and repentance to make the 20 glasses he drank into 19 glasses. The struggle continued over the years and he reached 2-3 glasses, with which he would still get drunk."

The world for years saw an alcoholic monk who scandalized the pilgrims, but God saw a fighter who fought a long struggle to reduce his passion.

Without knowing what each one is trying to do what he wants to do, what right do we have to judge his effort?

Source: Translated by John Sanidopoulos
 
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Project Panda

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Panda,
Did someone tell you that the Sanctification process of all of us isn't an ongoing and progressive endeavor? The Bible consistently talks about us having to renew our minds and to keep looking toward Jesus. That is not "cookie-cutter, lock-step",instantaneous conformity. Some Christians may still be stumbling all over the place if they live to be 127.
Everyone stumbles all over the place, some more than others. Oddly enough I stumble far less now than when I was a Christian. Like I said "I'm a better Christian now that I'm not one" I live more in line with Jesus now than I did before.
 

Project Panda

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Once on Mount Athos there was a monk who lived in Karyes. He drank and got drunk every day and was the cause of scandal to the pilgrims. Eventually he died and this relieved some of the faithful who went on to tell Elder Paisios that they were delighted that this huge problem was finally solved.

Father Paisios answered them that he knew about the death of the monk, after seeing the entire battalion of angels who came to collect his soul. The pilgrims were amazed and some protested and tried to explain to the Elder of whom they were talking about, thinking that the Elder did not understand.

Elder Paisios explained to them: "This particular monk was born in Asia Minor, shortly before the destruction by the Turks when they gathered all the boys. So as not to take him from their parents, they would take him with them to the reaping, and so he wouldn't cry, they just put raki into his milk in order for him to sleep. Therefore he grew up as an alcoholic. There he found an elder and said to him that he was an alcoholic. The elder told him to do prostrations and prayers every night and beg the Panagia to help him to reduce by one the glasses he drank.

After a year he managed with struggle and repentance to make the 20 glasses he drank into 19 glasses. The struggle continued over the years and he reached 2-3 glasses, with which he would still get drunk."

The world for years saw an alcoholic monk who scandalized the pilgrims, but God saw a fighter who fought a long struggle to reduce his passion.

Without knowing what each one is trying to do what he wants to do, what right do we have to judge his effort?

Source: Translated by John Sanidopoulos
A person will desire to fight their inner demons so long as they can see that they have them.
 

aspen

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I'm not sceptical about you or other Christians, I'm sceptical of the belief's they believe in. What I'm seeing is religious people not knowing the difference between their beliefs and their character, or mine. So when an attack comes at their beliefs they feel it's an attack on their character, it's not.

It is called over-identification. It is part of being human. Sorry, Christianity really has nothing to do with it. Switch religion for politics or a sport team and you’ll see the same fandom.
 

Project Panda

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It is called over-identification. It is part of being human. Sorry, Christianity really has nothing to do with it. Switch religion for politics or a sport team and you’ll see the same fandom.
Yeah true, but this behavior exists in Christianity also.
 
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brakelite

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Like I've said before

"I'm a better Christian when I'm not trying to be one"
Striving to be something you are not can be endlessly frustrating. But simply believing what God has done for you, is rest and peace.
 

aspen

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For people who think God is actually watching them 24/7 yes, it is disappointing to see them react that way.

What is your expectation for Christians who behave this way? Why do you think they are failing to meet your expectation?
 
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brakelite

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I agree, there is nothing wrong with the written word but with how people read and understand it. Everyone who reads a passage has their own interpretation. It is only by the teaching of the Spirit that we can understand properly.

Human teachers are insufficient, if that is all someone has they would be better off never knowing the bible and reinforcing those teachings through false interpretations.
And of course the extreme extension to that is the infallibility of the magisterium in Rome as 'sole interpreter' of Scripture.
 

Project Panda

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What is you expectation for Christians who behavior this way? Why do you think they are failing to meet your expectation?
We're talking about not being able to detach your beliefs from your character, right? I don't have any expectations other than not have my character attacked just because I question a Christian's beliefs. Those beliefs are essentially Jesus beliefs, and those who follow him believe in them. They didn't create those beliefs themselves, they just accepted them as a universal truth. Who cares if someone attacks your beliefs, they're really attacking what Jesus said. I'm sure if Jesus was real, he would be able to defend himself. He's a God, so don't you think it's pretty useless to fight his battles for him?

The Bible says a few things about this

You use the word's of the spirit & not the flesh to divide every lofty argument, and silence every tongue.

&

Pray for those who would persecute you, turn the other cheek, love your enemies, go the extra mile,

Then there's 1 Corinthians 13

+ Heap's of other directions you can take when dealing with a

Troll.
 
B

brakelite

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If your going to say that "We have the correct moral equation" but then say "We don't have to live up to it" Then why pidgin hole the rest of us. Why even tell non believer's that without God they can't be moral, if working at being moral is useless.
You have, intentionally or inadvertently, touched on one of the most debated concepts within Christendom. Does God have the power, and the willingness, to create a new person that has the ability to completely overcome sin/addictions/habits/mental illness etc in this life? Many Christians, and churches, say no. They believe the power of the flesh/carnal nature to be so bad...so evil...so entrenched, that overcoming these things is impossible. They believe everyone will continue to sin till the day they die. And it seems you have bought into that. That is perhaps why you have given up...even though you desperately wanted/needed to believe otherwise. No judging here...nor pretending to know you well enough to believe what I have just said is absolute.
But one of the basic truths of the gospel message is that once you come to Christ in total rejection of the old lifestyle with all its mindset and worldview, then He literally puts you to death. The old man dies. You become a new creation...born again...albeit a baby. You then grow. With some it takes longer to mature, as you said above.
It is about a complete change in character and worldview, but it takes time to grow into it. Some never do, refusing to let go that which is clinically dead. But whenever I speak with anyone struggling with addictions, habits, sin, etc., my response is always, you can be born again. You must be born again, to see the kingdom of God. And that born again person does have the power to overcome...and that power is found only in connection with Christ. It is in fact His power, His life, that becomes the source of everyday living for any Christian. Thus just as He overcame in all things, so can we. So can you.
 

Project Panda

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You have, intentionally or inadvertently, touched on one of the most debated concepts within Christendom. Does God have the power, and the willingness, to create a new person that has the ability to completely overcome sin/addictions/habits/mental illness etc in this life? Many Christians, and churches, say no. They believe the power of the flesh/carnal nature to be so bad...so evil...so entrenched, that overcoming these things is impossible. They believe everyone will continue to sin till the day they die. And it seems you have bought into that. That is perhaps why you have given up...even though you desperately wanted/needed to believe otherwise. No judging here...nor pretending to know you well enough to believe what I have just said is absolute.
But one of the basic truths of the gospel message is that once you come to Christ in total rejection of the old lifestyle with all its mindset and worldview, then He literally puts you to death. The old man dies. You become a new creation...born again...albeit a baby. You then grow. With some it takes longer to mature, as you said above.
It is about a complete change in character and worldview, but it takes time to grow into it. Some never do, refusing to let go that which is clinically dead. But whenever I speak with anyone struggling with addictions, habits, sin, etc., my response is always, you can be born again. You must be born again, to see the kingdom of God. And that born again person does have the power to overcome...and that power is found only in connection with Christ. It is in fact His power, His life, that becomes the source of everyday living for any Christian. Thus just as He overcame in all things, so can we. So can you.
Is this something you do or is it something God does? Because I've done all I can do (In my flesh)
 

mjrhealth

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Is this something you do or is it something God does? Because I've done all I can do (In my flesh)
God made it all about forgiveness and teh works of Christ, man made it all about sin, and him working to perfect Himself. Christ never promised to stop us sinning what HE did was take away the condemnation that it brought, just no one believes Him so they keep beating them selves to death,

Joh 16:8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
Joh 16:9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;
 
B

brakelite

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Is this something you do or is it something God does? Because I've done all I can do (In my flesh)
"Without Me ye can do nothing". John 15:5
When we come to the full realisation that we can accomplish nothing in and of ourselves, then we can begin to move forward. We walk one step at a time, trusting Jesus to do for us all that we cannot do for ourselves.
Hebrews 10:38-39
38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.
39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.
 

aspen

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We're talking about not being able to detach your beliefs from your character, right? I don't have any expectations other than not have my character attacked just because I question a Christian's beliefs. Those beliefs are essentially Jesus beliefs, and those who follow him believe in them. They didn't create those beliefs themselves, they just accepted them as a universal truth. Who cares if someone attacks your beliefs, they're really attacking what Jesus said. I'm sure if Jesus was real, he would be able to defend himself. He's a God, so don't you think it's pretty useless to fight his battles for him?

The Bible says a few things about this

You use the word's of the spirit & not the flesh to divide every lofty argument, and silence every tongue.

&

Pray for those who would persecute you, turn the other cheek, love your enemies, go the extra mile,

Then there's 1 Corinthians 13

+ Heap's of other directions you can take when dealing with a

Troll.

Well, your expectations are too high. Humans are weak when it comes to over identifying with their tribe; Christians and nonChristians. Here is another perspective; if you questioned a parent you didn’t know, about the quality or legitimacy of their love for their child on a message board, you would be attacked. Christians have a love for God that is just as deep.
 
B

brakelite

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Christ never promised to stop us sinning
No wonder, with people believing and teaching this, the church is so full of people still wrapped up in their addictions and evil characters. "As a man believeth, so is he."
Matthew 1:21
21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.
Ezekiel 36:25-27
25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
Acts 3:26
26 Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.
Ephesians 5:25-27
25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,
27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.
1 John 1:9
9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1 Corinthians 10:13
13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.
 

Project Panda

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"Without Me ye can do nothing". John 15:5
When we come to the full realisation that we can accomplish nothing in and of ourselves, then we can begin to move forward. We walk one step at a time, trusting Jesus to do for us all that we cannot do for ourselves.
Hebrews 10:38-39
38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.
39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.
So in actuality I shouldn't even approach God on any physical level, because that would be working from my flesh.