Messengers Not Angels In Revelation 1:20

[Hidden In Him]

Actual angels.

My question was, if they were angels, then why did the Lord address angels concerning the state of the seven churches, and in what way did the angels communicate these messages to the seven churches? Also, why did the Lord give the angels authority over these churches, such that the people in them were under their spiritual authority?

 

[Truther]

My question was, if they were angels, then why did the Lord address angels concerning the state of the seven churches, and in what way did the angels communicate these messages to the seven churches? Also, why did the Lord give the angels authority over these churches, such that the people in them were under their spiritual authority?

They are ministering spirits.

They don't minister to sinners, but saints.

Some have entertained angels, unawares, correct?

 

[marks]

The Bible says angels.

Leave it alone.

Don't be a JW, etc, okay?

Don't you see what you are inadvertently advocating as a word/meaning changer?

What I see that I am advocating is informing ourselves better on the meaning of the Bible by deeper study.

And your assertion that I'm changing the meaning of the word? How do you come to that? I point to others who say what the word means.

I've also pointed to other Scriptures which show clearly and plainly that this word speaks of human and celestial beings.

What is the difficulty in recognizing that this word does not specify by itself who the messengers are? We have context for that. It's just like we use the word messenger.

This is the difficulty with tranliterating instead of translating. Words tend to take on meanings not originally intended, because the reader wants to understand it, and relates it to things they've heard and been taught.

Baptism is an example of that. If you translate it, you'd be reading "immersion". We are immersed into Christ, like that. Not to derail the thread, just to give an example.

Much love!

 

[101G]

What I see that I am advocating is informing ourselves better on the meaning of the Bible by deeper study.

And your assertion that I'm changing the meaning of the word? How do you come to that? I point to others who say what the word means.

I've also pointed to other Scriptures which show clearly and plainly that this word speaks of human and celestial beings.

What is the difficulty in recognizing that this word does not specify by itself who the messengers are? We have context for that. It's just like we use the word messenger.

This is the difficulty with tranliterating instead of translating. Words tend to take on meanings not originally intended, because the reader wants to understand it, and relates it to things they've heard and been taught.

Baptism is an example of that. If you translate it, you'd be reading "immersion". We are immersed into Christ, like that. Not to derail the thread, just to give an example.

Much love!

Good point and I agree. understanding the bible as here in the book of revelation, one must have caution. the angel or messenger term. scripture, Malachi 2:7 "For the priest's lips should keep knowledge, and they should seek the law at his mouth: for he is the messenger of the LORD of hosts."

well did not at the beginning of the book of Revelation that "WE" are priests? scripture, Revelation 1:6 "And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen."

and was it not John who was instructed to "WRITE" unto the the seven churches? and in EVERY instance in every Letter he was told to "WRITE?"
example, Revelation 2:1 "Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write; These things saith he that holdeth the seven stars in his right hand, who walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks;" or Revelation 2:8 "And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write; These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive;" so on and on for all the churches, so who was writting to all seven churches? answer John, scripture, Revelation 1:10 "I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,"
Revelation 1:11 "Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea."

so in every individual Letter, John "WROTE" unto them, the churches.

PICJAG
101G The "Spiritual Saboteur"

 

[Philip James]

The angel of the Church in Smyrna:

st polycarp - Google Search


Polycarp to the Philippians (Lightfoot translation)

Peace be with you!

 

[Hidden In Him]

They are ministering spirits.

They don't minister to sinners, but saints.

Some have entertained angels, unawares, correct?

Ok, Truther. Only by "ministering spirits," what's meant is that they minister to the saints, not exercise authority over them (Hebrews 1:14). As stated in the OP, whoever these "angels" were, they had people in the congregations subject to their authority. Thus while I agree that angels are ministering spirits, and that some entertain angles unaware, it seems to fly in the face of scripture that the messengers in Revelation 1-3 are angels.

 

[Hidden In Him]

The angel of the Church in Smyrna:
st polycarp - Google Search
Polycarp to the Philippians (Lightfoot translation)

Peace be with you!

Thanks. Reads like scripture, so always nice to read the early church stuff.

I'm assuming that the expression was used of him, as in the following:

St Polycarp was consecrated Bishop of Smyrna by St John himself before this apostle’s banishment to the Island of Patmos. It is looked upon as certain that our saint was the angel, or Bishop of Smyrna, commended by the Lord in the Apocalypse: "And to the angel of the church of Smyrna write…I know they tribulation and they poverty; but thou art rich…Be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee the crown of life."
St Polycarp, Bishop and Martyr

If so, it's interesting info. Seems to suggest that the Catholic tradition kept the translation but reinterpreted it as a reference to humans.

 

[Truther]

What I see that I am advocating is informing ourselves better on the meaning of the Bible by deeper study.

And your assertion that I'm changing the meaning of the word? How do you come to that? I point to others who say what the word means.

I've also pointed to other Scriptures which show clearly and plainly that this word speaks of human and celestial beings.

What is the difficulty in recognizing that this word does not specify by itself who the messengers are? We have context for that. It's just like we use the word messenger.

This is the difficulty with tranliterating instead of translating. Words tend to take on meanings not originally intended, because the reader wants to understand it, and relates it to things they've heard and been taught.

Baptism is an example of that. If you translate it, you'd be reading "immersion". We are immersed into Christ, like that. Not to derail the thread, just to give an example.

Much love!

Redefining the KJV into modern redefinitions is not deeper studying, but debunking the KJV.

 

[marks]

Redefining the KJV into modern redefinitions is not deeper studying, but debunking the KJV.

I don't think you are seeing this. Not modern redefinitions, but the original Greek.

Much love!

 

[Truther]

Ok, Truther. Only by "ministering spirits," what's meant is that they minister to the saints, not exercise authority over them (Hebrews 1:14). As stated in the OP, whoever these "angels" were, they had people in the congregations subject to their authority. Thus while I agree that angels are ministering spirits, and that some entertain angles unaware, it seems to fly in the face of scripture that the messengers in Revelation 1-3 are angels.

They also deliver messages per Rev.

Angels are real.

 

[Truther]

I don't think you are seeing this. Not modern redefinitions, but the original Greek.

Much love!

The original Greek disintegrated about 1700 years ago. Nobody today can accurately and perfectly define the copies either...as we see in these endless new commentaries.

 

[Hidden In Him]

They also deliver messages per Rev.

Angels are real.

Well of course they're real. And of course they deliver messages, even prophetic messages (Daniel 10:10-13). But the question is, do they exercise authority over congregations? That's the issue. To say they were literal angels in Revelation 1-3, one would have to come to that conclusion.

 

[101G]

Revelation 1:10 "I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,"
Revelation 1:11 "Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea."

we might need to Look at the the term angel again, but don't hold me to this, but some food for thought.
what do the term "angel" here means?
G32 ἄγγελος aggelos (an'-ğe-los) n.
1. a messenger.
2. (especially) an “angel” of God.
3. (of evil, Satan) a demon.
4. (by implication) a person carrying forth a message from God, i.e. a servant (a disciple, pastor, elder, prophet, etc.).
5. (also, by implication) a thing or event carrying forth a message from God, i.e. a hardship (pestilence, wind, etc.), or an animal (donkey, locusts, etc.).
[from aggello “to bring tidings” (possibly derived from G71)]
KJV: angel, messenger

take notice of definition #5. "a thing or event carrying forth a message from God". now the definition of "LETTER".
2. a written, typed, or printed communication, especially one sent in an envelope by mail or messenger.

so a LETTER can be identified as a "messenger", a carrier of God's message, again read definition #5. as a thing ... carrying forth a message from God. and as a Noun, a letter qualify as a "THING".

so we could, not "can", but could, read those seven churches "LETTER" as such... first the verse, Revelation 2:1 "Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write; These things saith he that holdeth the seven stars in his right hand, who walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks;"

now by (implication) as a thing., Revelation 2:1 "Unto the (LETTER/ANGEL) of the church of Ephesus write; These things saith he that holdeth the seven stars in his right hand, who walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks;"
also the term "Unto" is the archaic term for to. so the scripture could be written, "To the message/Letter of the church of Ephesus write".... and John wrote these letter ..... each unto, or "to" each church, which "carried a message from God". and John did send them to the seven churches.
but as I said, just food for thought. and these letters did "carry a message from God, to each church.

againg, don't hold me to this.... just food for thought.

PICJAG
101G The "Spiritual Saboteur"

 

[amadeus]

Hi HIH,
Another thing I have thought about , from my own experiences, is the reality that those in positions of authority within the church either block anyone within a church fellowship from having a reliable message from The Holy Spirit, or the people themselves place so much on the pastor that they never allow themselves to be open to receive. All the failings within those churches exist today, whether personally or collective, yet the message from just reading revelation it doesn’t become personal until spiritual a church / person is open to correction - in other words they need a spiritual kick and a reality check. God usually uses all kinds of people and things to do that in my personal life, but how would a church today ‘ hear a correction and honest word ‘ when the reality is that many issues and problems come from the power struggles within leadership.
Not sure I have explained that properly x
Rita

I have not read all of the posts on this thread so hopefully I will not repeat what others have said. You @Barbara have hit on one key to understanding what the scriptures and what God means versus the facade often seen and experience in todays' world of churches.

Earlier in the thread some have spoken of heavenly angels such as Gabriel versus human messengers, such as John the Baptist, both sent by God with messages. They have also spoken of pastors, but I saw no distinction made between what churches today call pastors and what I believe as pastor should be as per scripture and/or what a pastor/shepherd of wool covered four footed beasts is supposed to do.

Ephesians 4:11 names 5 ministers given by God to help perfect men: apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers. Likely what men call pastors are some combination of the last four. I would leave out the apostle as probably not usually, if ever, one also called pastor.

Who of those five ministers does not bring messages from God? Perhaps the pastor? Hmm?

The pastor of today is a bit different than the pastor or shepherd of woolies, is he not? One in charge of the woolies it to keep them healthy and safe, is it not? What kind of a message does such a shepherd present to his wool covered flock? What is he to feed them?

But on the angels thing. In English and perhaps some other languages there are the two word, angel and messenger, but they overlap in meaning in the way they are used in the English scriptures of my regular experience. Most of the time in my own reading and understanding I am seeing human beings being the angels with few exceptions. One I have mentioned would be Gabriel sent to Mary with a very unusual message as messages from God go. Our problem often has perhaps been, or still is, that we have presumed or have been taught that angels are heavenly beings and almost no mention is made of them being human beings called and anointed by God.

The idea of ministers being stars also can be helpful, that is men being stars. Consider the case of the minister, Jimmie Swaggert, a star who fell effectively from heaven when he moved out of the Spirit of God into sin. Then look the scriptures that speak of the stars that fell or are to fall and consider the connection. To understand where I am coming from on this you need to also consider what heaven and the heavens are. Some certainly may disagree with what I see.

I do not believe any angel of God ever fell from 3rd heaven where I do not believe there has ever been any sin. Angels in rebellion against God would be angels in sin. But there are the 1st and 2nd heavens. Jesus only as a man in scripture is definitely shown, to me anyway, in all three heavens although Paul writes seemingly of at least one more. John may speak of yet another. But... look at this verse in which Jesus is apparently [to me] in all three:

"And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven" John 3:13

Someone is saved that first time when he repents and is immediately in the 1st heaven where Jesus was as a carnal man [man of flesh] on planet Earth. Jesus also visited us in the place of hell where we all were before we met him. But man just saved is often or usually [or always?] at he is at the level of the unclean beasts on the lowest level [1st heaven] of the ark which Noah built, saved but still unclean. Moving into the 2nd level [2nd heaven] of clean beasts in the ark... saved with the garbage removed but still with the desires and attractions of the unbelievers, like also the man who returned to his house swept and garnished [Matt. 12:44]. To 2nd heaven that man had attained, but having left it empty he returned to his vomit and the end of the man 7 times worse than at the start, he was not even in 1st heaven [the outer court of the tabernacle in the wilderness of Moses]. He was outside the gate again down in hell or death.

In the wilderness the people lived outside the gate but were able to enter in to bring their sacrifices. They really still lived in hell or death did they not? Did we not all live in hell or death until we first entered into 1st heaven when we repented reaching out to God that first time? Once in while for some of us may get clean enough to enter 2nd heaven [behind the 1st veil]. The high priest of Israel, the offspring of Aaron, entered symbolically once a year in behind the 2nd veil [Wow, 3rd heaven]. Who among us has already done what Paul described in that one place? [II Cor 12:2]

With that background then who can fall from heaven? What of the first two sons of Aaron, Nadab and Abihu, who died for offering strange fire before the Lord? Did they not, at least in a type or shadow, fall from at least heaven down to the hell which was earth where all of the dead people lived...lower perhaps because even any glimmer of hope was gone? But among those dead people all around us, the unbelievers, have we not been moved into 1st heaven when were converted?

Which angels or messengers are sent to men from God? From 3rd heaven, Gabriel, almost certainly...? Where was John the Baptist? Symbolically in a very high place, but actually how high when he was below any in the kingdom at least in his carnal lifetime? But he was a messenger, an angel also, was he not? When his head was removed, at least symbolically if not actually, did he then qualify for 3rd heaven with Jesus as his Head?

Who has been sent by God to men? The seven angels of the seven churches of Revelation? The prophets, evangelists and teachers with their messages from God to men? The pastors of men working also as prophets or evangelists or teachers?

The two English words, angel and messenger, used in the various Bibles may help to continue or to spread confusion [Babylon] of looking for mystical [non-existent?] heavenly creature in bright white clothing from the physical sky. Perhaps we miss the humble preacher, a human being, who looks in the flesh no different than any of us when seen only with the physical eye. Who are our real angels, our real stars and messengers sent by God? Do we have any? Probably some phonies among us and probably some real ones called and sent by God who have fallen from heaven but put on a show for carnal men who only want to hear someone confirm that they have already made to the end of the road and have overcome the last barrier between and God...

 

[101G]

Ephesians 4:11 names 5 ministers given by God to help perfect men: apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers. Likely what men call pastors are some combination of the last four. I would leave out the apostle as probably not usually, if ever, one also called pastor.

hello old friend, you made a good point, but are not the Pastor, prophets, evangelists, and teachers, the Gift for a work, and it's not us who do the work, but the gift given to us. for the only pastor/apostle/bishop/teacher is God himself. for it is not us who preach, but the head of the Church who speak/preach through us. as with the other works, which are Spirit powered in "Gifts. so in deed a man or woman is a messenger, or carrier of the message, and not the message itself.

and I garee that,

But on the angels thing. In English and perhaps some other languages there are the two word, angel and messenger, but they overlap in meaning in the way they are used in the English scriptures of my regular experience.

for the definition is
G32 ἄγγελος aggelos (an'-ğe-los) n.
1. a messenger.
2. (especially) an “angel” of God.
3. (of evil, Satan) a demon.
4. (by implication) a person carrying forth a message from God, i.e. a servant (a disciple, pastor, elder, prophet, etc.).
5. (also, by implication) a thing or event carrying forth a message from God, i.e. a hardship (pestilence, wind, etc.), or an animal (donkey, locusts, etc.).
[from aggello “to bring tidings” (possibly derived from G71)]
KJV: angel, messenger

definition #5 is also overlooked.

and a letter "SENT" could fit that criteria, a written, typed, or printed communication, especially one sent in an envelope by mail or messenger.

PICJAG
101G The "Spiritual Saboteur"

 

[amadeus]

hello old friend, you made a good point, but are not the Pastor, prophets, evangelists, and teachers, the Gift for a work, and it's not us who do the work, but the gift given to us. for the only pastor/apostle/bishop/teacher is God himself. for it is not us who preach, but the head of the Church who speak/preach through us. as with the other works, which are Spirit powered in "Gifts. so in deed a man or woman is a messenger, or carrier of the message, and not the message itself.

and I garee that,

for the definition is
G32 ἄγγελος aggelos (an'-ğe-los) n.
1. a messenger.
2. (especially) an “angel” of God.
3. (of evil, Satan) a demon.
4. (by implication) a person carrying forth a message from God, i.e. a servant (a disciple, pastor, elder, prophet, etc.).
5. (also, by implication) a thing or event carrying forth a message from God, i.e. a hardship (pestilence, wind, etc.), or an animal (donkey, locusts, etc.).
[from aggello “to bring tidings” (possibly derived from G71)]
KJV: angel, messenger

definition #5 is also overlooked.

and a letter "SENT" could fit that criteria, a written, typed, or printed communication, especially one sent in an envelope by mail or messenger.

PICJAG
101G The "Spiritual Saboteur"

I agree with your first paragraph/explanation. I really do not understand the whole thing that well myself perfectly, and what I wrote here I wrote very fast as it was time for me to at least take a break from the computer. Some will absolutely disagree. Some will not understand. Some will ask questions which maybe God will help me answer. Some will simply walk away not really interested one way or the other... and of course, probably most will not even read the whole thing. I don't read everyone's posts. I cannot do it. There was a time when I strived to read them all...

Give God the glory!

 

[101G]

I agree with your first paragraph/explanation. I really do not understand the whole thing that well myself perfectly, and what I wrote here I wrote very fast as it was time for me to at least take a break from the computer. Some will absolutely disagree. Some will not understand. Some will ask questions which maybe God will help me answer. Some will simply walk away not really interested one way or the other... and of course, probably most will not even read the whole thing. I don't read everyone's posts. I cannot do it. There was a time when I strived to read them all...

Give God the glory!

no worries my friend.... look, is not your post a MESSAGE? and a written letter/post sent is a messenger itself...... BINGO..

PICJAG
101G The "Spiritual Saboteur"

 

[amadeus]

no worries my friend.... look, is not your post a MESSAGE? and a written letter/post sent is a messenger itself...... BINGO..

PICJAG
101G The "Spiritual Saboteur"

Amen! That may make us both angels. There may be a whole lot of angels on this forum, but hopefully not too many fallen ones!

 

[101G]

Amen! That may make us both angels. There may be a whole lot of angels on this forum, but hopefully not too many fallen ones!

well angels are called men also, read Daniel 9:21 (KJV).

good point.

PICJAG
101G The "Spiritual Saboteur"

 

[Truther]

Well of course they're real. And of course they deliver messages, even prophetic messages (Daniel 10:10-13). But the question is, do they exercise authority over congregations? That's the issue. To say they were literal angels in Revelation 1-3, one would have to come to that conclusion.

No, one would not.

It does not make angels, elders.

They are messengers etc.

If the Bible says they are literal, as Rev speaks of other literal angels, then so be it.

This angel redefinition as "pastor" was a plot to create a ministerial hierarchy by the RCC etc.

Don't fall for it.

Also, changing meanings of the book can put us under the curses found in Rev 22.

Not cool.