Messengers Not Angels In Revelation 1:20

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Rita

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Ok, this part you would have to explain. In what sense would angels be pastors?


Yes. Transliteration doesn't always work even with ancient Greek words still in use, since meaning and usage change over time.


Absolutely. This is why several epistles are addressed directly to congregations, not any pastor, or one leader in particular. Revelation seems to break with this trend, which is an interesting aside. It appears that by the late NT era, the church was already moving in the direction of more assigned leadership in the churches rather than the Holy Spirit alone presiding. But maybe that was to be expected, since more time had passed, allowing those who were approved of God to rise to positions of authority.

Hi HIH,
Another thing I have thought about , from my own experiences, is the reality that those in positions of authority within the church either block anyone within a church fellowship from having a reliable message from The Holy Spirit, or the people themselves place so much on the pastor that they never allow themselves to be open to receive. All the failings within those churches exist today, whether personally or collective, yet the message from just reading revelation it doesn’t become personal until spiritual a church / person is open to correction - in other words they need a spiritual kick and a reality check. God usually uses all kinds of people and things to do that in my personal life, but how would a church today ‘ hear a correction and honest word ‘ when the reality is that many issues and problems come from the power struggles within leadership.
Not sure I have explained that properly x
Rita
 

Hidden In Him

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Hi HIH,
Another thing I have thought about , from my own experiences, is the reality that those in positions of authority within the church either block anyone within a church fellowship from having a reliable message from The Holy Spirit, or the people themselves place so much on the pastor that they never allow themselves to be open to receive. All the failings within those churches exist today, whether personally or collective, yet the message from just reading revelation it doesn’t become personal until spiritual a church / person is open to correction - in other words they need a spiritual kick and a reality check. God usually uses all kinds of people and things to do that in my personal life, but how would a church today ‘ hear a correction and honest word ‘ when the reality is that many issues and problems come from the power struggles within leadership.
Not sure I have explained that properly x
Rita


I understand your point, and interestingly enough, the letters to the seven churches show signs of exactly what I think will have to return to the true church: God's judgments and His discipline. Most would shrink back from wanting such a thing, but the church very honestly is never going to change until she is forced to. But when the Spirit of God again returns in power, the Lord Himself will again shepherd His flock, and the rod of correction will again be present as it was back then, and those who are walking in sin, whether in the pulpit or the pews, will come under judgment if they do not repent. But this is why the scriptures command, "Do not harden your heart." The Lord knows that people HATE being chastised, and many will rather rebel against Him than submit. So when the time comes, some will harden their hearts as in the provocation in the wilderness, and perish as a result. But the wise will humble themselves under the mighty hand of God.

The only question is when is this going to take place. Some talk like it will be soon. I think we have a long ways to go yet myself; a long ways of the church slowly coming under increasing oppression until few of the faithful are left standing. But these will be the foundation of the true Church God will build; one that will not be shaken.
 

Rita

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Hi HIH
I believe the last days started with the cross, so the spirit has been poured out ( so to speak ) basically what happened is a battle between surpession and openness with regards to hearing from the Holy Spirit. I didn’t always see it this way until I was part of a church that feared the gifts of the Holy Spirit and wanted and craved for things to go back to ‘ how they use to be ‘ in fact I was part of two churches that felt that way, they kicked against every move. They made their plans, then prayed and expected the Lord to bless what they had decided to do.
Sorry, got to go out - talk later xx
Rita
 
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Hidden In Him

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Hi HIH
I believe the last days started with the cross, so the spirit has been poured out ( so to speak ) basically what happened is a battle between surpession and openness with regards to hearing from the Holy Spirit. I didn’t always see it this way until I was part of a church that feared the gifts of the Holy Spirit and wanted and craved for things to go back to ‘ how they use to be ‘ in fact I was part of two churches that felt that way, they kicked against every move. They made their plans, then prayed and expected the Lord to bless what they had decided to do.
Sorry, got to go out - talk later xx
Rita

Yeah, "the way it used to be" wasn't all that great in most cases, unless you're talking about going all the way back to Pentecost, and they usually don't mean that.
 
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Ronald David Bruno

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Marks posted something over the weekend that I thought was exceptional. Not often will you see something that contradicts commonly held translation and interpretation, and yet proves itself to actually be true on further examination.

I'm speaking specifically about the translation in Revelations that the Lord Jesus was writing "to the seven angels of the seven churches" in Asia Minor. The word in Greek is Αγγελος, which can be translated either "angel" or "messenger" depending on the context, since this is what one class of angels are.

But aside from only a few, nearly all translations of the Bible read "angels" in Revelation, Chapters 1-3 instead of messengers. Only the International Standard and God's Word translations render it accurately as follows:

"The mystery of the seven stars that you saw in My right hand and the seven gold lamp stands is this: the seven stars are the messengers of the seven churches, and the seven lamp stands are the seven churches." (Revelation 1:20)

By "messengers," the text is referring to the leaders of the churches, who would have not only been the ones to receive this letter but also been its readers to their congregations as well.

As shared in our discussion, while the letter reads several times, "Let him who has an ear to hear, hear what the Spirit is saying to the seven churches," the excerpts themselves were actually addressed to these seven leaders. As Jesus told the leader in Sardis, "You (singular) have a few names in Sardis who have not defiled their garments, and they shall walk with Me in white, for they are worthy." (Revelation 3:4). Because it is in the singular, these words were clearly addressed to an individual, not the congregation itself in Sardis *(though they were indirectly addressed as well, through the reader). The only question is, was it an angel the Lord was talking to or a messenger; a leader who would be charged with reciting this letter to the congregation?

I can make no legitimate sense of these letters being written to seven angels. Since when does the Lord write a letter to angels when He wants to address a church? But I throw this out there for anyone who wishes to present a case for the common translation. I'm personally at a loss, however, for how it makes any logical sense.

God bless, and thanks for reading.
Hidden In Him
I always thought the message was to each specific church nut also Church-types throughout the church Age. We can see these types of churches present today - including sins present in them.
You are right, John wasn't instructed to write letters to angels, God gives them direct instructions.

Good observation !
 
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Hidden In Him

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I always thought the message was to each specific church nut also Church-types throughout the church Age. We can see these types of churches present today - including sins present in them.

That's correct, Ronald. I believe that as well.

I think the prophecy in relation to the Laodicean church age is still ongoing, and readily apparent.
 

Ronald David Bruno

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That's correct, Ronald. I believe that as well.

I think the prophecy in relation to the Laodicean church age is still ongoing, and readily apparent.
They are all present The Church if Philadelphia was the faithful church - present today. The Church in Smyrna, the persecuted church - present today, (ask Christians in southern Sudan or any other Islamic country or in China). All the other churches had sin in them requiring repentance, some almost dead, some with false teachers and some who are neither hot nor cold.
 
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Hidden In Him

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They are all present The Church if Philadelphia was the faithful church - present today. The Church in Smyrna, the persecuted church - present today, (ask Christians in southern Sudan or any other Islamic country or in China). All the other churches had sin in them requiring repentance, some almost dead, some with false teachers and some who are neither hot nor cold.

Well that's an interesting take. :)

Although I wouldn't want it clouding the fact that, overall, the church is by and large for the most part still wretched, miserable, poor, naked and blind.
 

marks

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For myself, I see in these letters not only the personal letters to historical people, but also the life cycle of a congregation, with pitfalls and warning. They seem to fit with an historical perspective of the church universal, as it moves through this pattern of behavior. I see patterns that can happen in us as individuals.

I wonder that they may have some particular application to particular churches at the end of the age.

In summary, I think they really apply across the board. That they were, again, written to historical individuals, but with the additional intent of, If the shoe fits, wear it, whether a person, a congregation, the church of today, or the church through history.

Much love!
 

101G

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Addressing the OP, remember the letters are signified, Revelation 1:1 "The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:"

so no matter what a translation writed, it must be "Revealed" by the revelator.

PICJAG
101G The "Spiritual Saboteur"
 

Hidden In Him

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Addressing the OP, remember the letters are signified, Revelation 1:1 "The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:"

I think that actually refers to the entire Book of Revelation rather than the various individual letters, 101. And in that case the translation is very likely accurately rendered "angel," as they are indeed used by God to grant divine revelation to men.
 

marks

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Addressing the OP, remember the letters are signified, Revelation 1:1 "The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:"

so no matter what a translation writed, it must be "Revealed" by the revelator.

PICJAG
101G The "Spiritual Saboteur"
That word doesn't really mean encoded, or hidden, or something like that. It's the same word John used speaking of Jesus signifying what death Peter would die.

It's used here:

John 12:32-33
32) And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
33) This he said, signifying what death he should die.

To be lifted up was idiomatic for crucifixion, like we'd say, "If I get the needle".

This was to indicate, not hide.

John 18:31-32
31) Then said Pilate unto them, Take ye him, and judge him according to your law. The Jews therefore said unto him, It is not lawful for us to put any man to death:
32) That the saying of Jesus might be fulfilled, which he spake, signifying what death he should die.

That is, the Roman execution of the cross.

Acts 11:28
And there stood up one of them named Agabus, and signified by the Spirit that there should be great dearth throughout all the world: which came to pass in the days of Claudius Caesar.

Agabus was, again, giving information, not hiding it.

Festus likewise seemed to have the same idea of this word . . .

Acts 25:26-27
26) Of whom I have no certain thing to write unto my lord. Wherefore I have brought him forth before you, and specially before thee, O king Agrippa, that, after examination had, I might have somewhat to write.
27) For it seemeth to me unreasonable to send a prisoner, and not withal to signify the crimes laid against him.

Much love!
 

101G

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I think that actually refers to the entire Book of Revelation rather than the various individual letters, 101. And in that case the translation is very likely accurately rendered "angel," as they are indeed used by God to grant divine revelation to men.
first thanks for the reply, second, I didn't say you was in error, or wrong, my point is this, one must be lead by the Holy Spirit in where or who is a sign or symbol is given. men have their interpertation, and that's a lot of the problem in the body today. and the MORE need for the Holy Spirit for guidance.
That word doesn't really mean encoded, or hidden, or something like that. It's the same word John used speaking of Jesus signifying what death Peter would die.
I never said that it was hidden, revelation ir a revealing. nor did I say it was encoded, but signified, which means, an idea expressed by a sign, as distinct from the physical form in which it is expressed. and sign is any object, action, event, pattern, etc., that conveys a meaning. a conventional or arbitrary mark, figure, or symbol used as an abbreviation for the word or words it represents. a motion or gesture used to express or convey an idea, command, decision, etc.

PICJAG
101G The "Spiritual Saboteur"
 

Hidden In Him

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first thanks for the reply, second, I didn't say you was in error, or wrong, my point is this, one must be lead by the Holy Spirit in where or who a sign or symbol is given. men have their interpertation, and that's a lot of the problem in the body today. and the MORE need for the Holy Spirit for guidance.

Well I can certainly agree with that : )
 

Ronald David Bruno

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Well that's an interesting take. :)

Although I wouldn't want it clouding the fact that, overall, the church is by and large for the most part still wretched, miserable, poor, naked and blind.
What you see is the flesh of the Church. The Body of Christ is spiritual, white as snow.
 
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Truther

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Marks posted something over the weekend that I thought was exceptional. Not often will you see something that contradicts commonly held translation and interpretation, and yet proves itself to actually be true on further examination.

I'm speaking specifically about the translation in Revelations that the Lord Jesus was writing "to the seven angels of the seven churches" in Asia Minor. The word in Greek is Αγγελος, which can be translated either "angel" or "messenger" depending on the context, since this is what one class of angels are.

But aside from only a few, nearly all translations of the Bible read "angels" in Revelation, Chapters 1-3 instead of messengers. Only the International Standard and God's Word translations render it accurately as follows:

"The mystery of the seven stars that you saw in My right hand and the seven gold lamp stands is this: the seven stars are the messengers of the seven churches, and the seven lamp stands are the seven churches." (Revelation 1:20)

By "messengers," the text is referring to the leaders of the churches, who would have not only been the ones to receive this letter but also been its readers to their congregations as well.

As shared in our discussion, while the letter reads several times, "Let him who has an ear to hear, hear what the Spirit is saying to the seven churches," the excerpts themselves were actually addressed to these seven leaders. As Jesus told the leader in Sardis, "You (singular) have a few names in Sardis who have not defiled their garments, and they shall walk with Me in white, for they are worthy." (Revelation 3:4). Because it is in the singular, these words were clearly addressed to an individual, not the congregation itself in Sardis *(though they were indirectly addressed as well, through the reader). The only question is, was it an angel the Lord was talking to or a messenger; a leader who would be charged with reciting this letter to the congregation?

I can make no legitimate sense of these letters being written to seven angels. Since when does the Lord write a letter to angels when He wants to address a church? But I throw this out there for anyone who wishes to present a case for the common translation. I'm personally at a loss, however, for how it makes any logical sense.

God bless, and thanks for reading.
Hidden In Him
What is the name of the "scholar" that provided this redefinition of the KJV etc?
 
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marks

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What is the name of the "scholar" that provided this redefinition of the KJV etc?
Hi Truther,

It's not redefinition, it's what the word means. Context tells us who the messengers are.

Here are some examples,

Matthew 11:9-10 But what went ye out for to see? A prophet? yea, I say unto you, and more than a prophet. For this is he, of whom it is written, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.

Luke 7:24 And when the messengers of John were departed, he began to speak unto the people concerning John, What went ye out into the wilderness for to see? A reed shaken with the wind?

Luke 9:51-52 And it came to pass, when the time was come that he should be received up, he stedfastly set his face to go to Jerusalem, And sent messengers before his face: and they went, and entered into a village of the Samaritans, to make ready for him.

James 2:25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?

These are examples of where aggelos is translated messenger, and shows from context to be speaking of humans.

Much love!
 

Truther

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Hi Truther,

It's not redefinition, it's what the word means. Context tells us who the messengers are.

Here are some examples,

Matthew 11:9-10 But what went ye out for to see? A prophet? yea, I say unto you, and more than a prophet. For this is he, of whom it is written, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.

Luke 7:24 And when the messengers of John were departed, he began to speak unto the people concerning John, What went ye out into the wilderness for to see? A reed shaken with the wind?

Luke 9:51-52 And it came to pass, when the time was come that he should be received up, he stedfastly set his face to go to Jerusalem, And sent messengers before his face: and they went, and entered into a village of the Samaritans, to make ready for him.

James 2:25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?

These are examples of where aggelos is translated messenger, and shows from context to be speaking of humans.

Much love!
The Bible says angels.

Leave it alone.

Don't be a JW, etc, okay?

Don't you see what you are inadvertently advocating as a word/meaning changer?