Michigan shooting, parents arrested

[GaryAnderson]

Hi Gary,
Yes, I have seen that photo ……but will this situation change anything, will parents think twice before buying them for their children. I knew that this happened and understand that it’s a right of passage for many sons , and with some daughters. The shock for me was the fact that the parents are being charged……..

Part of me thinks it’s a brave move to do this, but equally part of me thinks that it was the son that made the decision to shoot those young people. The parents have lost their son to prison, they will have to live with the knowledge that their actions gave him the means to do what he did, that to me is punishment. ……..
So, at the moment, I am not sure I agree with the decision.

I think it’s way overdue that parents are held responsible but things in US are difficult to explain to non-Americans who don’t have a collection of weapons in their homes.
There are many things that are mind-boggling and a culture shock here. For example at 18 you can go to war, you can vote, you can drive but you can’t drink!
You can get a gun as a gift like it’s candy at 15, but you can’t drink. No no that’s crazy talk in America. Drinking at 15? That’s evil.
Guns? Those are good. Have a few guns as a gift.

I can post videos here of little boys and girls ages 7-15 shooting automatic weapons in gun ranges or personal property.
So we have a culture of guns and we will pay the price for this culture like we do pay it everyday with needless deaths and no respect for human life.
We shoot people like they’re dogs.

 

[dev553344]

Is there anybody else that should be charged?

Oxford School officials could be charged in deadly Michigan shooting: prosecutor

Michigan school officials could still face charges following the tragic Oxford High School shooting last week that left four students dead and seven other people injured.

"It’s possible, yes," Oakland County Prosecutor Karen McDonald said on NBC’s "Today" show when asked if it was "possible that school officials could face charges."

 

[APAK]

I have been intrigued by this situation. Is this the first time parents of a shooter have been arrested and potentially charged with involuntary manslaughter ?
Are they being used as an example do you think and what do you think it will have an impact on parents buying guns for older children. I am presuming that he was to young to have a gun of his own, or am I wrong ?
Some of my workmates were talking about it and conveyed that the parents were arrested because they ignored warning signs, my only issue with that is that hindsight is a wonderful thing and there was no way they would have not done something if they honestly thought he was going to kill anyone that day……..
Just wondered what everyone else’s thoughts on the situation were……
Has he conveyed why he went on the shooting spree ?
Rita

A little general backdrop....
The turn to real deep socialism in America began with the Clinton administration. The first time in history. It happened in the UK in the late 70s...
And with this turn brought in a slew of new cries from the left, especially those living in the big cities and the typical five liberal States since the 60s of CA, IL, NY, NJ, MA and then the rest of the North Eastern States and more recently the North Western States and Colorado joined in. It formed the political map and landscape of America. It has not stopped in 30 years..

These cries called for drastically changing the Constitution or banning parts of it to conform to the UN goals....this has not changed today either.

One of the cries of the left was for gun control or even gun confiscation. As an important note, those living especially in these mentioned States
boasted they represent America. Far from it...their lives styles are quite different for the typical Southern or Western American who live in the rural and open country places. And this mindset is important to know when speaking about guns and their ownership in America.

Guns and their ownership in America is like the Flag, Thanksgiving and Pumpkin pie. It is hard to pry it from Americans who love their freedoms, their historical freedom that their ancestors fought for...it is patriotic to own one and be a part of the peoples militia. This mindset has not really changed today with over 50 percent of the population.

It is very unfair, say for a Bostonian, who has lived all their life in the city and its attachments, to really understand the mindset of a person who has lived their life say in Great Falls, Montana. This person from MA had no real idea on the value placed on a firearm in Montana. And yet they demand gun control or confiscation. Quite a foolish and ignorant demand, don't you think?! America is not Boston, or New York!

This is the essence of the problem in America Rita. Basically the city folks are trying to dictate and run and ruin the lives of others, of over half of America.

Now in this issue, these parents could have been irresponsible in buying their 15 year old a gun as a gift. I do not think these parents should be severely charged in this matter however. Yes, some form of reprimand is in order. And I tend to agree with @TLHKAJ on this one. The parents / child could have been involved in a psyop production....for this liberal US/UN agenda to add more pressure for getting guns confiscated..it happens all the time in America.....

 

[Spkrdctr]

Oxford Michigan is my home town! The kid is 15 years old and the parents are being charged as a child can only use a hand gun under direct adult supervision. By law they may get it as a gift but they can't have it readily accessible to kids under 21. So, they can have it but it does NOT mean the child can go use it whenever they want. In many states a child can be tried as an adult when the crime is so egregious that in no way will Juvenile Court be punishment enough for the crime. The parents really were negligent in a huge way. They bought a 15 year old a gun which is not too bad, then left it available for him to take any time he wanted. They also did not most likely realize the duty they had to secure the gun as they are the "adults" in this situation. So, they are going to go to prison for a long time. The kid at 15 will most likely not see freedom for at least 30 to 40 years. The entire family is destroyed by parents not being true parents. Oh, and both parents had criminal records but I don't know what for.

Guns can be fun and target shooting can be a lot of fun. But you still need to be responsible. But at the same time anyone can "crack" at any time and start shooting people. But it is very, very rare in the USA.

 

[GaryAnderson]

But it is very, very rare in the USA.

Quick question: What’s rare? The mass shootings?
I’m gonna leave this here in case your answer is YES.

America's gun culture in charts

 

[Spkrdctr]

Quick question: What’s rare? The mass shootings?
I’m gonna leave this here in case your answer is YES.

America's gun culture in charts

Those charts do not really represent all that much information. To someone who is up on the American gun culture, they leave a lot out of the picture. For example and this is only one point, If you take out suicides it cuts the death rate by almost 50%. That alone radically changes the numbers. Americans are very good at suicide even if there is no gun around. Lots of times it is by pills or automobile. Murders in the USA are 90% perpetrated by friends and family members. NOT unsuspecting unknown people. Also, you can't compare a country with very, very strict anti-gun laws to a country where guns are highly valued by the citizens. It is apples and oranges. I could go on but that is two quick off the cuff responses. Also, for a country with 330+ million people, the few "mass shootings" while horrible is in reality very few people at all. If Americans wanted to cut death rates in the US, they would come down on drunk driving with a heavy hammer. Americans just don't care all that much about people dying and don't really get all worked up about it. It is a crazy reality but it is the truth. Heck, Chicago has more shootings in a weekend than most places do in decades. What is done to stop it in Chicago? Nothing. The laws are there but the police/prosecutors and politicians don't want to arrest gang members as they are usually the wrong color. Very sad but very true. But, this is really way off topic for a Christian forum. I'm stopping now.

 

[GaryAnderson]

Those charts do not really represent all that much information. To someone who is up on the American gun culture, they leave a lot out of the picture. For example and this is only one point, If you take out suicides it cuts the death rate by almost 50%. That alone radically changes the numbers. Americans are very good at suicide even if there is no gun around. Lots of times it is by pills or automobile. Murders in the USA are 90% perpetrated by friends and family members. NOT unsuspecting unknown people. Also, you can't compare a country with very, very strict anti-gun laws to a country where guns are highly valued by the citizens. It is apples and oranges. I could go on but that is two quick off the cuff responses. Also, for a country with 330+ million people, the few "mass shootings" while horrible is in reality very few people at all. If Americans wanted to cut death rates in the US, they would come down on drunk driving with a heavy hammer. Americans just don't care all that much about people dying and don't really get all worked up about it. It is a crazy reality but it is the truth. Heck, Chicago has more shootings in a weekend than most places do in decades. What is done to stop it in Chicago? Nothing. The laws are there but the police/prosecutors and politicians don't want to arrest gang members as they are usually the wrong color. Very sad but very true. But, this is really way off topic for a Christian forum. I'm stopping now.

Okay you just proved a couple of my points:

1. Americans have no respect for human life.
2. Drunk driving.
Again drinking is more dangerous in America as opposed to a weapon of war which can make death easier.
Here’s some guns as a gift but if you drink at 15 you are worse than the devil himself.
To each his own.
I’ve chosen a state with strict gun laws. If I liked guns, I’d move to Texas where you get a free gun for opening a checking account.

 

[lforrest]

Okay you just proved a couple of my points:

1. Americans have no respect for human life.

Americans reciprocate the respect shown towards their lives. Any less is to be naive about human proclivity to evil.

 

[GaryAnderson]

Americans reciprocate the respect shown towards their lives. Any less is to be naive about human proclivity to evil.

I don’t think so. We shoot people like animals for absolutely no reason because of guns. In most of the civilized world, they look at us like savages.
Some cops don’t know how to communicate and de-escalate so they shoot unarmed women, children or disabled people, and some civilians shoot people for jogging in their neighborhoods.
I’m glad I don’t live in these places.

 

[Rita]

Thanks for all the input everyone, much appreciated xx

 

[lforrest]

I don’t think so. We shoot people like animals for absolutely no reason because of guns. In most of the civilized world, they look at us like savages.
Some cops don’t know how to communicate and de-escalate so they shoot unarmed women, children or disabled people, and some civilians shoot people for jogging in their neighborhoods.
I’m glad I don’t live in these places.

The news poisons our minds, think for yourself. Neither does a tool or weapon make a group more or less savage. Lack of personal and social responsibility leads to savagery.

 

[Wrangler]

The boy is being charged as an adult, yet the parents are charged for negligent homicide because they didn't keep their weapon from their minor son. The hypocrisy is abhorrent.

Another case of prosecutorial overcharging.

 

[Wrangler]

I think manslaughter is called something else in America... Maybe its murder in the 3rd degree or negligent homicide...

It varies by State.

 

[GaryAnderson]

The news poisons our minds, think for yourself. Neither does a tool or weapon make a group more or less savage. Lack of personal and social responsibility leads to savagery.

Yes, the news and the culture CAN poison minds. For example, in America we think of weapons as “tools” whereas other cultures think of them as Weapons of War.
Because of these abundance of weapons which can cause death easily in large numbers, we no longer have respect for human life.
We think that “it’s okay to shoot someone in your property” and you completely devalue their humanity.

 

[lforrest]

Yes, the news and the culture CAN poison minds. For example, in America we think of weapons as “tools” whereas other cultures think of them as Weapons of War.
Because of these abundance of weapons which can cause death easily in large numbers, we no longer have respect for human life.
We think that “it’s okay to shoot someone in your property” and you completely devalue their humanity.

You're defending people that would break into someone's home, and kill them if they are lucky? There goes the neighborhood.

Guns are tools to make the weak strong and the strong weak. Liberals should love guns, because they make everyone equal. God created men and Sam Colt made them equal.

 

[GaryAnderson]

You're defending people that would break into someone's home, and kill them if they are lucky? There goes the neighborhood.

Guns are tools to make the weak strong and the strong weak. Liberals should love guns, because they make everyone equal. God created men and Sam Colt made them equal.

To each his own. For me it’s obvious that violence and loss of respect for human life would occur in a place which embraces gun culture. This is also backed up by data shown in the article I posted earlier.

 

[Spkrdctr]

I don’t think so. We shoot people like animals for absolutely no reason because of guns. In most of the civilized world, they look at us like savages.
Some cops don’t know how to communicate and de-escalate so they shoot unarmed women, children or disabled people, and some civilians shoot people for jogging in their neighborhoods.
I’m glad I don’t live in these places.

That is highly exaggerated.

 

[Spkrdctr]

To each his own. For me it’s obvious that violence and loss of respect for human life would occur in a place which embraces gun culture. This is also backed up by data shown in the article I posted earlier.

Actually it is not. The guns do not cause a lack of respect for human life. The culture of uncontrolled sin causes it. Also, another fact that destroys your charts is that per capita the USA is not in the lead, I think we are 7th or tenth. I cant remember exactly. Other civilized countries are ahead of us. This is a common topic where people animate an object and believe that a lump of steel has mythical properties to cause humans to go stark raving mad and kill people. Actually the sin and lack of ANY teaching of God and the Bible is what is causing the total breakdown of our society. Also, you will notice that most of the anti-gun states have the highest gun violence. The gun is no more of a mythical device than a golf club. It is the human who has mental problems, is a gang member or a criminal or the BIG one, a drunk family member or friend! The fact that people commit crimes is again a sin problem. Our school curriculums and politicians passing crazy laws and regulations are breeding maniacs. All driven behind the scenes by Satan the thief who comes to kill and destroy. Highest crime rate cities are by far led by godless liberal anti-American leftists who can't even get the guts to support local law enforcement to arrest the criminals! Then we wonder why crime is rampant in the US. I have to stop now. I could go on for days.

 

[Rita]

I didn’t really want the thread to be a debate about guns and whether they are right or wrong, the OP is about whether or not parents should be held to account for the actions of their children…..in this case involving a gun.
The gun debate will always go on and on ……..
Do you think this will change the decisions parents make with regards to what they allow their children to have, does it make a difference if you know that you could personally be held to account…..that’s the kind of thing I was wanting the discussion to lead to……
Do you agree that these parents are being used as an example to bring about some kind of change ?
Why have no other parents been held to account before when there have been mass shootings and the guns have come from the parents house, is it linked more to what Apak said in post 23……..

I personally don’t think the parents should lose their freedom at all……..
I believe it’s very difficult to hold parents responsible for the actions of their teenage children, although a question is raised as to whether he would have acted on his thoughts had he not been given his own gun, would he have found another one ………

 

[GaryAnderson]

I didn’t really want the thread to be a debate about guns and whether they are right or wrong, the OP is about whether or not parents should be held to account for the actions of their children…..in this case involving a gun.
The gun debate will always go on and on ……..
Do you think this will change the decisions parents make with regards to what they allow their children to have, does it make a difference if you know that you could personally be held to account…..that’s the kind of thing I was wanting the discussion to lead to……
Do you agree that these parents are being used as an example to bring about some kind of change ?
Why have no other parents been held to account before when there have been mass shootings and the guns have come from the parents house, is it linked more to what Apak said in post 23……..

I personally don’t think the parents should lose their freedom at all……..
I believe it’s very difficult to hold parents responsible for the actions of their teenage children, although a question is raised as to whether he would have acted on his thoughts had he not been given his own gun, would he have found another one ………

Rita, thanks for steering us back on topic.
For me it’s very simple. As long as the child is a minor, the parents are responsible for that child. Especially when the parents are shown to be irresponsible.
Prosecution will depend on the circumstances and on a case by case basis - that’s how these things go usually in US. On a case by case basis.