Millions of years ago ?

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veteran

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The real evidence of Genesis 1 with the "dry land" is that the dry land was already... there, underneath the waters that covered it. That automatically presupposes an earlier creation of the land (earth) that was under those waters which God later moved around to make the land appear.


Gen 1:2
2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
(KJV)


The Hebrew phrase "without form, and void" ACTUALLY means 'lie waste, and undistinguishable ruin' (Strong's no. 8414 & 922). It does NOT mean a state of 'nothingness' in the Hebrew. A simple comparison of the word tohuw ("without form") throughout God's Word will show it is used for something gone into ruin, into a state of vanity. For something to do that it has to first... have been in a different, or better condition before going into ruin.

Notice the "face of the deep" and "face of the waters" are first mentioned there with that "without form, and void" state. That immediately removes any idea of a 'nothingness' outerspace vacuum condition.


If that part is first understood per the Hebrew, the next verses about the waters and land fall into place easily...

Gen 1:6-10
6 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.


These "waters" are the same "face of the deep" and "face of the waters" mentioned in Gen.1:2. They are at a specific location, covering the earth. That's where these waters are, and where God is separating them. With this first dividing, He is separating those waters in two parts to create a "firmament" (sky atmosphere around the earth).


7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.

Here He actually creates the sky atmosphere around the earth using part of those waters from the first division. The rest of the waters He left where they were. Where were all those waters again before He did this? Upon the earth, covering it all. Notice Gen.1:2 says the "earth" was a waste and an undistinguishable ruin (per the Hebrew for "without form, and void"). The earth was already there at Gen.1:2. So at this point, part of the waters were taken up above the earth and the sky formed around it, the rest of the waters He left were still covering all the earth. That means a whole lot more water was on the earth than today's seas, because when He did this first division of waters, what was left on the earth's surface was still enough to totally cover it.


8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.

OK, the sky ("firmament") is formed, the rest of the waters left still covering all the earth.


9 And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so.
10 And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good.
(KJV)


The waters He left on earth at that point are those "waters under the heaven". That "heaven" is put for the sky atmosphere around the earth, the "firmament" He formed from part of those "waters" in the previous verses. These waters here are the portion of waters He left on the earth that covered it all still. Here He moves those waters that were left upon the earth, and it makes the "dry land" underneath appear. And these waters on the earth He calls "Seas". This is not a creating of land, i.e., the Earth. It is a naming of the Earth for this world. The earth was already created at Genesis 1:1 before it became 'a waste and a ruin' ("without form, and void").

What our Heavenly Father is actually showing us there, is that the Perfect heavens and earth that He first created at Gen.1:1 had become a waste and a ruin and He ended that time with a flood over all the earth, similar to the time of Noah's flood, excepting there was nothing left on the earth. He literally destroyed the works on that old earth. The fossil record just so happens to agree perfectly with this event.

Both evolutionists and young earth creatioinists totally disagree with this, so arguments that try to put this in either of those categories is moot. Neither group has followed how these Scriptures are actually written, even within the KJV Bible.

As we're supposed to do with study of God's Word, we are to seek out two or more witnesses to establish God's Truth in His Word. Are there other Scriptures that point to this? Yes. Apostle Paul gave a description of it which many miss...


Rom 8:16-25
16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with Him, that we may be also glorified together.
18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.


OK, Apostle Paul established the subject time there being about the world to come under Christ Jesus; not this present world, but the one to come, even God's Eternity of the future. That's the future glory he is speaking of, and our relation to it in Christ.


Rom.8:19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.

The creation waits for the future time of the manifestation of the sons of God. Remember, the subject time Paul placed this in is for the world to come, not this one we are still in today. That KJV word "creature" is Greek ktisis, Strong's defines it as 'original formation' (Strong's no. 2937). It is the very same... Greek word for "creation" in v.22 further below. The Message is that even the 'creation' is waiting for the world to come when we as the sons of God will be manifested according to that future glory under Christ Jesus. Apostle Paul further continues to define that future state of the sons of God later here also, so there's no mistaking the world to come he was talking about.

All these other examples of KJV "creature" here in Rom.8 is the same Greek word ktisis put for the "creation".


20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of Him Who hath subjected the same in hope,

This verse by Paul requires you to stop and think. Paul says the creation ("creature") was made subject to vanity; stop. Think about that. Just HOW was the creation made subject to vanity??? What kind of vanity?

The Greek word for "vanity" here is matalotes (Strong's no. 3153: from base 3152 which means 'empty, i.e. (profitless)'. It is in the same... idea of vanity of the Hebrew word tohuw that is translated "without form" in Gen.1:2 and per Jer.4:23 and Isa.45:18, etc.

How would that vanity apply during today's world for God's creation? How many think that how God's creation is today is already perfect, and is going to be in the same condition for the future world to come? According to Apostle Paul here, God placed His creation in a state of vanity for this present world, and He subjected it to the same hope as we have for the future glory of the world to come.


21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

That next verse removes any doubt that this is what Paul's Message there is about, the creation itself having been put in a condition of vanity, in "bondage of corruption", and is in the same hope we have for the future world to come under Christ Jesus.

So the next question is, just WHEN was it that God put the creation in "bondage of corruption"? in a state of "vanity"? made subject to the same hope we have for the future manifesting of the sons of God in the world to come?

Well, if you read the Genesis 1:1 through Genesis 1:10 Scripture how it is actually written, you just learned when God did that to His creation, revealing that He originally created the heavens and the earth in a Perfect condition in the beginning, before it became a waste and a ruin, and He brought a flood of waters upon it to destroy the time of old prior to Adam.


Apostle Paul isn't finished describing this yet...

22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.

God's whole "creation" (ktisis) groans and travails in pain even until now??? How's that? Do you REALLY think the four seasons and weather on this earth, which causes much of its vegetation to die and wither, and animals to flee, with barren areas where nothing will grow, and 3/4 of the earth's surface covered with water still, is how God originally made His creation??? That's exactly what the secular world wants us to believe, i.e, that this earth has always... been like that, created like it is now, and will forever be like that. In reality, even the creation is in a state of "bondage of corruption" like Paul said. And he was comparing that bondage of corruption to OUR condition in the flesh! The comparison is to one like bondage of death.


23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

Not only does the "creation" seek a release from the bondage of corruption God put it in, in hope, but WE ourselves also do LIKEWISE groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, i.e., the "redemption of our body". What body is Paul talking about there? Not a redemption of our flesh bodies, but a redemption of our "spiritual body", the body of incorruption Paul detailed in 1 Corinthians 15. That's the body of the world to come, not this flesh body we have today that gets sick and dies, feels pain, hot, cold, etc.


24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?
25 But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.
(KJV)


If you don't see the world to come manifested yet, then you still wait for it, and have hope for its coming. What you can already see established, you don't have hope for, because you see it manifested. That's all Paul is saying there, pointing to that redemption coming with the glory of the world to come, not yet today, but after Christ's future return. The "creation" waits in that same hope also with the future manifesting of the sons of God and both our release, and its release, from the bondage of corruption God has placed this present world in.

By understanding these Scriptures, our Heavenly Father is giving His servants a small peep of what His future creation is going to be like, after He frees it from the bondage He put it in prior to Adam. The Jeremiah 4:23-28 Scripture is another peep similar to what Paul covered here in Romans 8 for those in Christ Jesus. In Jeremiah 4, God shows about the sky atmosphere He formed back at Genesis 1, and how it is responsible for the vanity of corrupt weather conditions around today's earth. He also showed that He did not make a full end back then, and for this reason the earth would "mourn" with the heavens above (sky) being black, pointing to the earth's weather of storm clouds (Jer.4:28).

If you've understood this, then good for you, The LORD has opened your eyes to see it, and you should have some grasp of how God's future eternity is going to manifest with a perfect creation, not in the condition of the earth that it's in today.
 

sniper762

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evolution is true.............. "MAN" evolved over the last 200k years (made by god, but not in his image)
but...."MAN CREATED IN GOD'S IMAGE" according to the bible, (adam, created by god) a little over 6k years ago
 

marksman

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Hence, over the course of six "creative" days (with each "day" several thousand years long),
We can argue over the length of God's days in Genesis from a theological perspective and we could be both right and both wrong.

However, if we look at actual experience it may be more informative. I had a period when I was interested in the stories of people who said that they went to heaven and came back again. Richard Eby got me going.

I noticed that in many stories, time was unknown in heaven. A person only had to think something and it happened. One thought they would like to meet someone and the next second they were standing by that person.

Another had a thought and the next second it happened.

Now as God is infinite and we are finite, I have no problem in believing that God did not need several thousand years to create the heaven and earth. If we finite people can experience some thing in heaven in a moment of time, then I have every reason to believe that when God said let there be light, in a moment of time there was light.

That being the case, I believe that the days recorded in Genesis were spoken of in that way to help us understand the creation in terms that could be explained in finite thinking.

I cannot understand God's ability to create instantaneously, but I can understand a day.

One final thought. When I got into studying evolution seriously, I was told that the earth was 2 million years old. Further reading said that it was 20 million years old and this was followed by a claim it was 80 million years old.

Not to be outdone this was raised to 200 million by another atheist and when the New Atheists got their teeth into it it had increased to 3.5 billion. Christopher Hitchens said before he died that it was 13.5 billion years old.

I think saying that the earth is millions or billions of years old is a bit wonky as even the atheists can't agree on the topic.
 

Arnie Manitoba

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marksman said:
I think saying that the earth is millions or billions of years old is a bit wonky as even the atheists can't agree on the topic.
Exactly .... the evolutionists keep bumping up the age of the earth .... it is their "magic explanation" for everything

If we remove the "magic explanation" of "millions and millions of years" from evolutionary doctrine ... it collapses.

The second "magic formula" they use is ... "random chance"

There is no such entity called "chance" that manipulates anything.
 

veteran

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sniper762 said:
evolution is true.............. "MAN" evolved over the last 200k years (made by god, but not in his image)
but...."MAN CREATED IN GOD'S IMAGE" according to the bible, (adam, created by god) a little over 6k years ago
God did form the man Adam in His Garden in 4004 B.C. (per Bishop Ussher's 17th century Bible chronology of events, and Bullinger's 19th century chronology).

But 4004 B.C. is NOT... when our Heavenly Father first created the heavens and the earth.

marksman said:
We can argue over the length of God's days in Genesis from a theological perspective and we could be both right and both wrong.

However, if we look at actual experience it may be more informative. I had a period when I was interested in the stories of people who said that they went to heaven and came back again. Richard Eby got me going.

I noticed that in many stories, time was unknown in heaven. A person only had to think something and it happened. One thought they would like to meet someone and the next second they were standing by that person.

Another had a thought and the next second it happened.

Now as God is infinite and we are finite, I have no problem in believing that God did not need several thousand years to create the heaven and earth. If we finite people can experience some thing in heaven in a moment of time, then I have every reason to believe that when God said let there be light, in a moment of time there was light.

That being the case, I believe that the days recorded in Genesis were spoken of in that way to help us understand the creation in terms that could be explained in finite thinking.

I cannot understand God's ability to create instantaneously, but I can understand a day.

One final thought. When I got into studying evolution seriously, I was told that the earth was 2 million years old. Further reading said that it was 20 million years old and this was followed by a claim it was 80 million years old.

Not to be outdone this was raised to 200 million by another atheist and when the New Atheists got their teeth into it it had increased to 3.5 billion. Christopher Hitchens said before he died that it was 13.5 billion years old.

I think saying that the earth is millions or billions of years old is a bit wonky as even the atheists can't agree on the topic.
If you stay within the parameters of God's Word, there's no way to assume God created the heavens and the earth only 6,000 years ago. That doctrine is instead from men's traditions and not according to God's Word.

My post of what Apostle Paul showed in Rom.8 is further proof of what I'm saying that God's first original creation of the heavens and the earth was an undetermined time long, long ago and the fossil records agrees with those Scriptures.

More proof in Jer.4:23-28 and Isaiah 45:18 and 2 Peter 3.

Lucifer served God in the world that then was, which was the time of God's original pefect creation of the earth that the creation today seeks release from bondage back to. Then Lucifer rebelled against Him and God brought waters of a flood upon the earth to destroy that time of old. From Gen.1:2 forward is about God establishing this present world we are now in.

If you don't understand the "world that then was" when Satan was perfect in his ways, and then this present world we still in now, you certainly won't understand the world to come under Christ Jesus. This is how one can know all the doctrines of men about Christ's future Kingdom being up in the clouds somewhere with no earth is just total Biblical ignorance.
 
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Rocky Wiley

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veteran said:
God did form the man Adam in His Garden in 4004 B.C. (per Bishop Ussher's 17th century Bible chronology of events, and Bullinger's 19th century chronology).

But 4004 B.C. is NOT... when our Heavenly Father first created the heavens and the earth.


If you stay within the parameters of God's Word, there's no way to assume God created the heavens and the earth only 6,000 years ago. That doctrine is instead from men's traditions and not according to God's Word.

My post of what Apostle Paul showed in Rom.8 is further proof of what I'm saying that God's first original creation of the heavens and the earth was an undetermined time long, long ago and the fossil records agrees with those Scriptures.

More proof in Jer.4:23-28 and Isaiah 45:18 and 2 Peter 3.

Lucifer served God in the world that then was, which was the time of God's original pefect creation of the earth that the creation today seeks release from bondage back to. Then Lucifer rebelled against Him and God brought waters of a flood upon the earth to destroy that time of old. From Gen.1:2 forward is about God establishing this present world we are now in.

If you don't understand the "world that then was" when Satan was perfect in his ways, and then this present world we still in now, you certainly won't understand the world to come under Christ Jesus. This is how one can know all the doctrines of men about Christ's future Kingdom being up in the clouds somewhere with no earth is just total Biblical ignorance.
veteran,

I agree to a certain extent with you about creation.

What we know about the bible is:

Except for Genesis and Revelation, everyone agrees that it is about God and his chosen. If that is the case, why doesn't Genesis do the same. I believe it does because according to the Jewish theologians 'heaven and earth' refers to God and his chosen, where God and man meet, or the Temple. So the creation spoken of was the selection of Adam and Eve as those chosen.

It also makes sense when one asks 'where did Cain find a wife'? He found a wife outside of the garden for there were many people at that time.

True? If it makes sense, why not?
 

veteran

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Rocky Wiley said:
veteran,

I agree to a certain extent with you about creation.

What we know about the bible is:

Except for Genesis and Revelation, everyone agrees that it is about God and his chosen. If that is the case, why doesn't Genesis do the same. I believe it does because according to the Jewish theologians 'heaven and earth' refers to God and his chosen, where God and man meet, or the Temple. So the creation spoken of was the selection of Adam and Eve as those chosen.

It also makes sense when one asks 'where did Cain find a wife'? He found a wife outside of the garden for there were many people at that time.

True? If it makes sense, why not?
If we really want the Truth per God's Word, then we must... stay within Its own written parameters. Of course common sense is a must, but not the common reasoning per secularist thinking. So how we are taught to think by this world can create a huge problem with trying to understand God's Word, because His Word transcends man's philosophy, ideas, and even a lot of things today's scientists know.

For example, the secular world doesn't believe God's Word about many events recorded in The Bible. They treat those events as myth, or like mystical philosophy, and not literally. That's why even some preachers today don't believe the Genesis creation account as written, but have turned to secularism in their thinking about it, treating it as some kind of poetic work by Moses.

My posts are simply to show that our Heavenly Father actually gave a lot more literal detail in His Genesis creation account than we are most often taught. I am not alone in this; there are many pastors in the Churches today that understand it on the level I've spoken of. And some of them actually do... teach it to their congregations. Most do not though.

I asked a pastor I met once in public, and asked him about the idea in Gen.1:2 of a destruction by a flood that ended the "world that then was" which Peter was really talking about (2 Pet.3). He looked at me and said no man gave him to understand that, that God only gave him to understand it. But he said he didn't teach it to his congregation because only about on quarter of them would understand.

What this reveals is that there are deeper levels of understanding within God's Word. But all the levels will perfectly agree with each other. And this is one level which Peter spoke about regarding things taught in Paul's Epistles that many wrest with. Peter said that in 2 Pet.3 where he was teaching about this mystery of three world ages.

One of the major problems today is that a lot of preachers simply do not... understand it on that level Peter mentioned about Paul's teaching (like the Romans 8 Scripture I covered above). And then some do but either are not allowed to teach it, or simply won't teach it to their congregations. I know one large Church in my area that has a full time real pastor that teaches only, with evangelists that only preach The Gospel. That pastor is a Hebrew-Greek scholar. I have friends in that Church that said he taught what I've covered. I asked my friend how many in the congregation did he think understood. He said not many. Yet he understood, and was joyed because he had studied geology on the college level and did some research on his own about the fossil record, and knew something was amiss. I've had Christian brethren that are... geologists thank me for covering it, because they knew there was a major disagreement somewhere that didn't make sense. And what it did was to increase... their Faith and that God's Word handles scientific matters too (and It should since God's Word is The Truth).
 
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veteran

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Arnie Manitoba said:
If nobody on the face of this earth knows how old the world is.....

how can some people claim that it is not 6000 years old ..... ??
You really want to know where the 6,000 year old earth tradition began in the Church?

It began from a misinterpeting of Bishop Ussher's 17th historical chronology of the world (a good read by the way). He had to stop that history back at the time of the man Adam at 4004 B.C., simply because that's as far back the written record for man goes in The Bible.

Then some took that to mean it was same time when God created this earth.
 

aspen

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i am sure glad that believing in a literal creation account has nothing to do with salvation or the quality of my walk with Christ
 

Rex

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aspen2 said:
i am sure glad that believing in a literal creation account has nothing to do with salvation or the quality of my walk with Christ
When are you going to take that opinion with your church? Instead you let yourself at times look like a hypocrite by expressing sound doctrine because you associate your faith to an organization that can be seen as teaching contrary to some of things you express.

i am sure glad that believing in the Catholic Church has nothing to do with salvation or the quality of my walk with Christ
 

aspen

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Rex said:
When are you going to take that opinion with your church? Instead you let yourself at times look like a hypocrite by expressing sound doctrine because you associate your faith to an organization that can be seen as teaching contrary to some of things you express.
I am reconciled with the Catholic Church, why are you still in rebellion?
 

Rex

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aspen2 said:
I am reconciled with the Catholic Church, why are you still in rebellion?
i am sure glad that believing in the Catholic Church has nothing to do with salvation or the quality of my walk with Christ

Reconciling myself with men is not on my to do list from the Lord.
 

aspen

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Well, you can lead a horse to water.....
 

Rex

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The account of Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego

The water you refer to leading me to, must satisfy something in you? What exactly is that, your flesh?

I had my drink and I thrust no more thank you.

Doesn't your well run dry, and you have to continually return to the church for communion and being forgiven of sins?
The scripture says that water flows from those that have taken the water of life, offered at the well by Jesus in John Ch 4.
How is it your churches well runs dry and has to be replenished?
 

aspen

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It is you that rejects my faith. I do not reject yours.
 

Rex

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Did Jesus tell us to accept everyone's religious faith?

Or did he say to proclaim the truth before men?

Here's your summary so far

1 reconcile yourself with the RCC
2 don't reject anothers religion

I hate to use the word that begins with H, y and p aspen, but you don't make much sense.
 

aspen

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I do not accept all people's doctrine. I am a Christian, which means that I submit to the justification of Christ and the sanctification of the Spirit and I am in basic agreement with the doctrine of Trinitarian believers. It is not my purpose or calling to run around pantsing everyone who disagrees with me - instead, I am called to practice my sanctification by loving my neighbor and loving God. Thanks for giving me another opportunity to proclaim the Good News.
 

ENOCH2010

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veteran I am impressed with your posts in this thread, the 3 Earth ages must be shown to a person by the Holy Spirit before they can understand .
 

Rex

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aspen2 said:
instead, I am called to practice my sanctification by loving my neighbor and loving God.
In-spite of the fact that by practicing love "under aspens definition" in every and all situations just looks like being a hypocrite.


Rex said:
Did Jesus tell us to accept everyone's religious faith?

Or did he say to proclaim the truth before men?

Here's your summary so far

1 reconcile yourself with the RCC
2 don't reject anothers religion

I hate to use the word that begins with H, y and p aspen, but you don't make much sense.